Thread Number: 63811  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
A window with a view! Help me decide?
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Post# 863785   1/24/2016 at 08:11 (1,002 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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So FINALLY the long awaited dishwasher with a window is available for purchase. This would be purely an "I want it!!!" purchase. My Frigidaire Gallery works beautifully, but come one, a dishwasher with a window? Yes please.

I haven't convinced myself completely that I will get one right now (though I probably will). It looks like there are 2 options available. Obviously the KitchenAid model and also Kenmore has a clone Elite model.

Both machines are built on the same platform but it appears that the Kenmore is a step above the KitchenAid in terms of features. Both feature the new "clean" filter system, just called different things.

The Kenmore has the newer wash system which is motorized, it also has the TurboZone Reach option which is the upper rack "turbo" wash zones, the lower TurboZone has moving disks, compared to the KA stationary spray, it has top rack only and bottom rack only options, splittable utensil caddy, and a knife holder.

The KitchenAid has the older wash system with the "X" lower wash arm...which quite honestly I really love. It's about the only thing on these left from the original Hobart designed that really is pushing me in that direction. The knife holder I can actually buy as an accessory so not a big deal there. The KitchenAid is a clone (basically) of CR's top rated dishwasher so I know it will clean well. In a way I like the more simplistic aspect of the KitchenAid...

Then there's the price. The KitchenAid is priced on sale for $1079 and the Kenmore Elite for $1299. So that's an issue as well.

I'll post the links from Home Depot and Sears.

Any comments welcome!!

Thank you!

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 2         View Full Size

Post# 863793 , Reply# 1   1/24/2016 at 09:02 (1,002 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
DW With A Window

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I would get the KA, I have already done service calls on the motorized wash-arm feature on KM models, the motorized WA feature is complicated and the seal failed after 15 months for my customer and damaged their wood floor.

Post# 863794 , Reply# 2   1/24/2016 at 09:08 (1,002 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Thanks John! Yeah, I was thinking that myself. Less to go wrong, lol.

Post# 863795 , Reply# 3   1/24/2016 at 09:14 (1,002 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
That window on the Elite

The Elite window looks hidious with the round corners in my opinion.

And make sure to get some way to light the interior during a cycle! Some LED-strips, maybe.

Post# 863798 , Reply# 4   1/24/2016 at 09:25 (1,002 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I do like the outside design of the KA too! I don't like that thick handle of the Kenmore, honestly.

I was thinking the same thing...the lights don't stay on during the cycle lol. I'd need lighting for videos hahaha

Post# 863800 , Reply# 5   1/24/2016 at 09:29 (1,002 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        

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I vote for the Kitchenaid. I don't care for the appearance of the Kenmore at all. Of course if the Kenmore could run with the light on inside, that might change my mind. But I bet it doesn't.


Post# 863801 , Reply# 6   1/24/2016 at 09:33 (1,002 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Thanks Malcolm! No, neither run with the light on, darn it haha.

Post# 863836 , Reply# 7   1/24/2016 at 13:57 (1,002 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Just make sure you use the Hi-Temp Wash with the Kitchen Aid, otherwise you're getting 100F washes.

Post# 863839 , Reply# 8   1/24/2016 at 14:46 (1,002 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Wow, the Kenmore shows up as 1499$ for me! And if you want to get the KA, get it till the 27th ;)

Post# 863842 , Reply# 9   1/24/2016 at 15:15 (1,002 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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Kitchen Aid gets my vote......

I have a top control model, with that tiny status dot, it would be nice if it had at least a countdown display of some sort on the front....

other than that, an outstanding unit.....

besides, this light is already inside......I would be figuring a way to add a switch into the kickplate to turn it on as I wanted.....

Post# 863855 , Reply# 10   1/24/2016 at 16:50 (1,002 days old) by appnut (TX)        
Kitchen Aid, otherwise you're getting 100F washes

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That's why I chose the Kenmore Elite over the KA because the KA only specs "normal" wash water temp at that level and mine has a minimum of 120 degrees.  I think the default wash cycle times are shorter than mine too.  Couple that with 100 degree water and I can't see anything getting clean.  Here's where I'm a bit like Andrew--why should I engage high temp wash if I cannot expect the Auto Wash cycle to figure out how to best clean everything.  I only use HTW for the dirtiest of loads.  And that's with Pots/Pans.  The last 3 loads have consisted of cereal bowls with MaltoMeal cooked in them and sat for up to 6 days as well as remnants of whole wheat pasta in pans as well as reheated meatloaf on plates and such.  it has defaulted to average soil--and everything has come out clean.  It does do a "purge" 1st post wash rinse.  The pump pulses on & off and alternating levels for 5 minutes and then does the 2nd rinse.  My old one just purged/pulsed for about 15 seconds and drained and went to the last (2nd ) rinse. For heavier soil it does to complete fill post-wash rinses.  On pots & Pans it's 3.  The new one has only done once whereby it doesn't drain the prewash water and starts the main wash phase and dumps the detergent.  for loads that would just be that light, I find the 1 hours wash cycle is more than adequate and I add 25 to 30 minute heated dry.  My digital display on the top of the door is visible with the countdown at all times. 

Post# 863857 , Reply# 11   1/24/2016 at 16:58 (1,002 days old) by verizonbear (Glen Burnie )        
Sears Outlet

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I have a feeling you will see that Kenmore model in the outlet by spring, the novelty will wear off,

Post# 863860 , Reply# 12   1/24/2016 at 17:02 (1,002 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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So how does the wash temp lower if it's like 125-130 degrees out of the tap??

Post# 863865 , Reply# 13   1/24/2016 at 17:18 (1,002 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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They mean that the sensors will only activate the heating element if the water falls below 100F. The temp gradually falls just from ambient heat loss through the tub, and with the main wash itself being 1.5 hours or more, there is definitely enough time for cooling to happen.

I cast my vote for the KitchenAid because of the lack of motorized arm. I'm sure KA's and KM's mechanical arms are the same as far as how they work, but even aside from reliability issues, I don't really like how either arm setup looks. I'm definitely on the more simplistic side, which is what I love about my new Whirlpool; clean lines, simple, sleek looking wash arms, etc. It does an unbelievably wonderful job, without all the extra business going on.

I'm sure the wash temp thing won't be an issue in the grand scheme. If you have caked on/burnt on foods you'd probably be using a heavier cycle than Normal anyway, otherwise, the final rinse is still heated to 140. Odd though, because my Whirlpool still heats main wash water to at least 120 on Normal with no options. The one time I opened it a while after the detergent cup opened, I was greeted with a billow of steam to the face. I wonder, despite these machines all being Whirlpool and all being the same wash system design, why the variations in temps and cycle times?

Post# 863866 , Reply# 14   1/24/2016 at 17:23 (1,002 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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@John - How have the diverter valve systems and their seals been holding up in the last few years with these Whirlpool machines? I think I remember you mentioning it being at least one weak point for this design. It's what I'm somewhat worried about with mine, because otherwise I don't see the motor(s) failing on their own with normal use. So far my plan is just to make sure dishes are actually dirty and that I'm using high quality detergent to make sure the seals aren't being eaten alive.

Post# 863872 , Reply# 15   1/24/2016 at 17:56 (1,002 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Makes sense about the temps. Probably to save energy I imagine. The Maytags are the same way from the user manuals.

I'm really like the KA myself. Now just need to nerve to place the sale lol.

Post# 863873 , Reply# 16   1/24/2016 at 17:58 (1,002 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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@henene The price on the Kenmore did go up lol. Yikes

Post# 863874 , Reply# 17   1/24/2016 at 18:02 (1,002 days old) by Stricklybojack (San Diego, CA)        

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When you shop make sure to do so in "private" mode. Otherwise the retailer is tracking where you have been on the web and can adjust the prices you see. Also so do other sites, so now your Facebook will be full of ads for dishwashers as will google search pages etc.
Airlines do this a lot.

Post# 863880 , Reply# 18   1/24/2016 at 18:38 (1,002 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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I second @stricklybojack. Reset your browser completely and then go incognito/private. This happened when buying my dryer. Had all kinds of ads pop up afterward showing it cheaper, only to find out there was "fine print" on the other side. Drove me crazy until I learned about tracking.

Post# 863883 , Reply# 19   1/24/2016 at 18:44 (1,002 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

I prefer the look of the KitchenAid, despite the lack of a motorized wash arm. I'm unapologetic about loving the gadgets, although that technology is new and it will take a few years and a few hundred enraged customers to get the bugs worked out.

Post# 863885 , Reply# 20   1/24/2016 at 19:00 (1,002 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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My thoughts exactly. Love the gizmos, but only after the kinks have been ironed out. I had reservations about the geared valve lower arm in my Whirlpool, but then again it's completely water pressure driven. Upon close inspection, the gears inside turn at such a slow rate that I don't think they'll ever wear out or bind up, at least not for a long time.

Also the HydroSweep-esque arm is much prettier than both KA and KM's motorized arms. The 1919 stamp on the hub pays a nice homage to its history.

Post# 863900 , Reply# 21   1/24/2016 at 20:24 (1,002 days old) by verizonbear (Glen Burnie )        
Issues with the window

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Questions to all , playing devils advocate

1. It seems the window would show condensation/steam especially during the drying cycle, will it ever be clear enough to see through while the machine is in operation?

2. No light comes on until the cycle is complete? they really should come up with an override for that.

3. The first fill will be kind of "swampy" in terms of food soil being sprayed around that may not be appealing.

I have one of the mini dishwashers in my basement bar, the window is smoked so you can some of the wash action but it not really clear and if its really full you dont see much wash action .

Post# 863930 , Reply# 22   1/25/2016 at 01:43 (1,002 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

If I had to get one of these-would go for the KA-don't know how long Sears will be around to honor warrantees.The KA is lower priced,too.But whats the cycle times of these machines-couldn't find that.

Post# 863944 , Reply# 23   1/25/2016 at 06:12 (1,002 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Cycles are fairly long...up to almost 4 hours. That doesn't make any difference to me though since I start my DW before bed anyhow. It has an Express cycle that runs for about an hour. Uses more water than other cycles and it says it can be used for baked on dirt. I wonder if that cycle runs all the arms at the same time??

Post# 863946 , Reply# 24   1/25/2016 at 06:36 (1,002 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

The Elite uses about a gallon less on the 1h cycle then the KA, but the Elites TurboZone can add up to 2 whole hours according to the manual.

Do they have the same drying system or may one have a fan and the other one not?

Post# 863949 , Reply# 25   1/25/2016 at 06:48 (1,002 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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They both have that new drying system with the fan. It's supposed to work better.

Post# 863951 , Reply# 26   1/25/2016 at 07:02 (1,002 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Dirverter Valve In Newer WP DWs

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Is an electrically [ not water driven ] driven valve, it is designed in such a way that it can not send water to all areas at the same time.


Note; the DWs with the motorized lower arm have TWO motors and TWO shaft seals to possibility fail.


The problem we have been seeing with these is the delrin shaft gets a grove worn in it at the water seal and then the DW leaks water underneath [ never a good thing ] Do note every time we have seen this problem the DW has at least a moderate to severe mineral build up on much of the interior surfaces. And it is this mineral build up that is destroying the seal and delrin shaft.


Just like the damage that is often done to clothes washers from too little detergent, cheap ineffective detergent and over rinsing in hard water areas does.


I think that these new WP DWs are a good design that should last a long time if like all appliances they are used properly.


Whenever I see these DWs covered in mineral film I always ask the customer [ don't your glasses look terrible and filmy? ] and they always say yes they are terrible, we just can't get them clean. I always tell customers at the first sign of problems, DO SOMETHING DIFFERENT, CALL FOR SERVICE if you can't figure it out.


John L.

Post# 863952 , Reply# 27   1/25/2016 at 07:05 (1,002 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
No Lighting...

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I guess you don't really need the light to turn on during operation, you'll be in bed and miss all the fun.


Post# 863955 , Reply# 28   1/25/2016 at 08:00 (1,001 days old) by countryguy (Astorville, ON, Canada)        

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And if you are in bed, why do you need a window in the door?

Post# 863981 , Reply# 29   1/25/2016 at 10:48 (1,001 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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I don't think I'd sit and watch the whole cycle lol. It's still cool to have.

Post# 863988 , Reply# 30   1/25/2016 at 11:51 (1,001 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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I'm willing to bet you could wire up an easy 'bypass' switch to the lights....unless KA annoyingly built the power converter INTO the control board.

Post# 864000 , Reply# 31   1/25/2016 at 13:44 (1,001 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Alternatively, you could also put an LED light in there like they do at

Post# 864379 , Reply# 32   1/27/2016 at 18:50 (999 days old) by Joeypete (Concord, NH)        
Video review

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Post# 864436 , Reply# 33   1/28/2016 at 03:06 (999 days old) by delaneymeegan (Mary Richards lived here)        

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I like the look of the KM with its smooth, easy clean lines.
New technology BEFORE the kinks are worked out, however, NO.

I Agree with Yogi " besides, this light is already inside......I would be figuring a way to add a switch into the kickplate to turn it on as I wanted"
When I heard the light only comes on at certain times, I was like: That can be fixed, NO PROBLEM. If one is going to spend $1000+ on a dw with a LIGHT inside (something I've never seen in person) it damn well come on when I want it to.

Perhaps it's too techi, but think of the possibilities of installing 8 security cameras, at various angles and levels, inside your current dishwasher.

The video would be broadcast to your computer and recorded so you can view, and enjoy, your dishwasher at anytime. Even allow other people to enjoy your dishes being washed. Yes it would also need a light inside.

I'm thinking the window would compromise containment of noise. Also, it's an uninsulated surface that would cool the water faster. And what happens when the window leaks? And, will the window cloud up or get scratched over time?

Is the window actual glass or heavy plastic?

I know I have to get up on what's going on in the dw market these days. I stopped using dws in 2002 and started again a few months ago.
I've done 6 loads today in 2 different machines. I can't imagine not having one.

The last dw I knew that was "technologically advanced" was a 1999 TOL Frigidaire, which washed one rack at a time (reversing pump).

I don't know Joe, the GE dw I picked up in November can't be that old, it seems to work fine and it cost me..... $0.

Windows in an appliance may be your thing, I get it.
I saw a TOL KitchenAid dryer from 90s/2000s recently, and it had a window in the door. I thought about (it was practically free) but didn't do it.

Post# 868687 , Reply# 34   2/23/2016 at 20:49 (972 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
edited video of full cycle

I'm interested in seeing an edited video of a full cycle.

Post# 868732 , Reply# 35   2/24/2016 at 01:09 (972 days old) by A440 ()        



I always wonder about these owners that do reviews on Youtube but never show the unit in operation!  I would also like to hear or watch it and not just hear their opinion about it.


So on that note watching a full edited version of any "user review" is highly unlikely.




Post# 868751 , Reply# 36   2/24/2016 at 05:07 (972 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Killeen tx USA)        
I agree.

I agree with you on that. I too wish consumers would show us what's going on with these dishwashers.

Post# 869165 , Reply# 37   2/26/2016 at 04:41 (970 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
re; dishwasher window,

Just don't hire a maid or cook who may mistake it for a steam oven.
"Break down that biach of a bearing wall, and pout a window where it ought to be!"

Post# 871553 , Reply# 38   3/9/2016 at 15:38 (957 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Post# 871563 , Reply# 39   3/9/2016 at 16:51 (957 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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Let there be light!

Post# 871674 , Reply# 40   3/10/2016 at 06:11 (957 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
In the oven.

I looked at my dishes before they went in the dishwasher.

Post# 871707 , Reply# 41   3/10/2016 at 10:45 (956 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Is my vote.

Just looks better, and as Combo said, I myself do not agree with something overly complicated.

Post# 871708 , Reply# 42   3/10/2016 at 10:47 (956 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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Yeah I'd probably pick the KA. But right as I posted this, I found my 1985 Hobart on CL and got that instead. lol.

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