Thread Number: 66067  /  Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Top load washers in the USA
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Post# 886377   6/22/2016 at 04:15 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

It seems that this country is really one of the very few that top load washers were king for so many years from the 50's on. I have seen machines from other countries that were top load that simply had a rotating basket inside and were like a front load machines after all. What or who was it that allowed this country to be so indulgent in almost exclusively manufacturing top load washers with agitators for so many years? They do use a lot more water than front loaders and usually more detergent, so why do you suppose it was allowed to happen that way? What kept top loaders from catching on in other countries like they did here? Seems strange to me and seems as though it is something almost exclusive to the USA and the surrounding areas. It now seems kind of wasteful, but went on for over 50 years.




Post# 886382 , Reply# 1   6/22/2016 at 05:59 (2,836 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Wasn't it cost?TL machines are cheaper to build than FL ones.

Post# 886385 , Reply# 2   6/22/2016 at 06:46 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

Could be, I really am not sure how that all came about. I know that I still see posts from different countries that have top loaders which are just front loaders that load from the top. It would seem to me that it would be cheaper to build one that only rotates as to one that has a transmission and such. Seems like there would be a lot more to it than a front loader had.

Post# 886386 , Reply# 3   6/22/2016 at 07:06 (2,836 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)        

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We like our water hog machines that save sooooooooo much electricity by only running 20 minutes instead of 1+ hours to wash a load of clothes.

Not sure I know the answer to the "reason" but but somehow the wringer washer turned automatic and stuck that way?????


Post# 886398 , Reply# 4   6/22/2016 at 09:40 (2,836 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)        
Who allowed this country to be so indulgent?

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Who ALLOWED this country....?   What kind of question is that???  

 

You make it sound like "someone" made a conscience decision about it: "Hmm, shall we build washing machines that are really inefficient and use LOTS of water and LOTS of electricity to clean our clothes... OR... shall we build a different type of washer that uses very little water to clean our clothes?   Naaah!”

 

Come on, you are old enough to know / remember.  Look back at that time in our history, it was a very selfish and wasteful time.   Our country was prosperous and NO ONE thought about, cared about or knew the meaning of “conserving our resources”.   Water and electricity was plentiful and inexpensive (just like gasoline, but that’s another thread).

 

Plus you have to look at the available technology and engineering of the time, then add in the cost of manufacturing and that’s what we got.   Like Tolivac mentioned above, it costs less to build a top load machine, even today.     Plus top load washers were the first design created and to be mass produced. 

 

Look at other countries like Australia for example, they are where we were in the 60’s & 70’s, meaning the vast majority of all washing machines sold and used in Australia are non-HE top loaders.

 

The UK for example has front loaders out of necessity.  They have always been more "aware" of water usage / waist, etc, plus apartments / flats over there are much smaller than here and they simply didn't (and still don't) have the room for large machines like we have here. 




This post was last edited 06/22/2016 at 10:01
Post# 886399 , Reply# 5   6/22/2016 at 09:40 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

I guess so, just seems odd that in this country they were the preference for so many years. Some had a novel way of washing clothes too. It certainly seems to be all over now.

Post# 886401 , Reply# 6   6/22/2016 at 09:55 (2,836 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
Creatures of habit

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I've spent a lifetime observing how even educated people are creatures of habit when it comes to some ordinary areas and things in their lives. I think most of our Grandmothers had/used Wringer washers at some point and they translated better to the Top Loading Automatic than to "horizontal axis" machines in the minds of those who did the laundry.

 

Furthermore, I think this preference is still strong even after the "High Efficiency" revolution. We started out strong about 10 years ago with all of our stores shifting over to Front Loaders only to see companies like Samsung, Whirlpool and LG bolster their lines with tons of top-loading "Calypso-style" high efficiency machines. I think the average American is still more comfortable with top-loaders.

 

I remember that Fisher & Paykel came out with a very interesting Top-Loading dryer a couple of years ago that is NLA. Did any of you have any experience with it? I'm kinda curious about it now and looking for one on Craigslist.


Post# 886402 , Reply# 7   6/22/2016 at 09:58 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Toploaders are not exclusive to the USA. You can still find a lot of them in Asia and in South America. Also there are still a lot in Australia although frontloaders seem to gain a market share there. Europe is actually the only continent where frontloaders took over the market from the beginning.

I guess it's for various reasons that toploaders became popular in the USA. A few possible reasons:

1. Convenience. Toploaders are way easier to load than frontloaders.

2. They are more similar to wringer washers, so it's easier to make the change from a wringer washer to a toploader.

3. The 110V system which meant almost always no heater in the washers. In a toploader with a lot more water in it a higher temperature is easier maintained than in a frontloader that uses less water. Hot water becomes warm water very fast in a frontloader.

Just my 2 cents.


Post# 886406 , Reply# 8   6/22/2016 at 10:07 (2,836 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)        

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Excellent points Ken and Louis!

 

Thank you!


Post# 886415 , Reply# 9   6/22/2016 at 11:05 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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It is only for the American domestic market that top loading washing machines came to dominate. As have said before commercial laundries almost universally went with side loading machines. Mind you they could because the devices were heated and often powered by steam. This and they could be bolted into floors which made up for lack of suspension systems.

When you look at how washing clothes evolved it went from doing washing by hand in some sort of container to the addition of some sort of hand or later motor powered.

Early in the last century there were more than a few washing machines being offered that were H-axis for domestic use. Thor, Hurley, Eden, Gainaday, Maytag, and others built such machines. Take a look at the various contraptions at the Olde Wash museum:

www.google.com/searchQUES...

My personal favourite and holy grail is the "Cylinder" washer by Thor (Hurley Machine Company). Have been trying for years to find one in decent to good condition... www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...

www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T...


Post# 886419 , Reply# 10   6/22/2016 at 11:40 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

That's what I'm talking about, this really is the only country that top loaders completely dominated the market of home use washers. Now in the beginning I know they were much better at washing and spinning than the old bendix and westinghouse machines back in the 40's and 50's. Perhaps that is why there were so many different manufacturers of top loaders in the 50's and 60's. They sure used a lot more water to do their job though. That was never an issue until recently. Thank goodness the front loader has improved to the point of being far superior now. I just think it is interesting when you see how it all unfolded. Even westinghouse came out with their own top loader in the 60's to get a bigger share in the market.

Post# 886424 , Reply# 11   6/22/2016 at 12:09 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
H-Axis washers for domestic use

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Were hobbled by a couple of things.

Commercial laundries had access to unlimited hot or even boiling water via their boilers. Those things not only provided steam to run machinery (via belts)but for heating water either in central tanks and or washers and other machines. The domestic setting OTOH was another story....

Many homes right up until an even after WWII lacked indoor plumbing connections for hot water. That meant boiling kettles or whatever on a fire then hauling that water to washing machine. Well after doing all that nonsense you aren't going to just dump that nice hot water after one use. So yes, while various portable "semi-automatic" H-axis washers were on the market early, once things began to move towards fully automatic machines you can see the problem.

Next came the fact H-axis washers either must be bolted into several feet of concrete or have rugged suspensions. Bendix came out with the former and later the latter but since they held those patents everyone else either had to pay or find a work around. Even then not every home could or would have a machine bolted down.

Finally there was the question of cleanser, and until post WWII that meant soap. Pure soaps and H-axis washing machines do not play nice. In fact any high sudsing detergent causes all sorts of problems. Commercial laundries had ways around this but for the average housewife things were different.

Meanwhile it was generally known even early in the last century that H-axis washers were more gentle on clothing than those with central beaters. However until better designs, more powerful motors and so forth came along there was little makers of H-axis washers could do.

Contrary to popular belief there were top loading washing machines in Europe before WWII. It was just post that event as many countries were rebuilding the benefits of H-axis washers became clear.


Post# 886427 , Reply# 12   6/22/2016 at 12:56 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

In Europe they had top loaders before WWII? That was something I didn't know. Is there somewhere I could look at what they had? I am curious about it. I know that one of the first top loaders here was Frigidaire. Since they were solid tub machines, they didn't use as much water. I personally think that if Frigidaire washers had not had the tangling problem they could have well taken the complete market on automatic washers. They certainly did everything else well. It could have been Frigidaire instead of Whirlpool.

Post# 886431 , Reply# 13   6/22/2016 at 13:26 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Post# 886434 , Reply# 14   6/22/2016 at 13:52 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Yes, like other parts of the world we had wringer washers too with agitators or with pulsators. However in Western Europe (with exception from the UK) the focus was on frontloaders when the automatics were introduced. The first automatic washing machine in Europe came from Constructa (1953/1954). There were some toploaders too, but those were automatic H-axis twintubs like the AEG Turnamat and fully automatic H-axis toploaders like the V-Zug Unimatic.

Before the introduction of the automatics in Europe, American washing machines were imported for the well to do. Mainly GE toploaders and Bendix frontloaders were imported. The first automatic washing machine that was imported was a Bendix in 1948 for a family in Rotterdam.

I found in those pictures a picture of a typical French washtub from before WWII. Une machine à laver manuelle! An H-axis toploader!



Post# 886447 , Reply# 15   6/22/2016 at 15:36 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

Ok, so my next question is this. Is there anywhere that still makes traditional top load washers in another country? Besides speed queen I mean.

Post# 886454 , Reply# 16   6/22/2016 at 16:10 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Brastemp

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From Brazil and perhaps some other South American appliance manufacturers.


www.brastemp.com.br/categoria/lav...

Then there is Mabe in Mexico.

Quite honestly outside of North and South America and perhaps OZ and New Zealand the traditional top loading washer we know and love either never took hold or has been long since passed over in favor of H-Axis washers.

There is a thriving USA export market for American appliances. Top loading washing machines are sought after by households in Israel, the Middle East, Europe and other parts of the world.

www.eastwestintl.com/showsubcat.a...

www.samstores.com/search-220-volt...


IIRC Israel is big because many large Jewish families don't want to spend ages doing laundry. Top loaders are faster than front...

For the Middle East and Israel semi-automatics and wringers once were in demand due to the ability to reuse water; something much appreciated in desert areas.


www.kefintl.com/appliances-purcha...


Post# 886456 , Reply# 17   6/22/2016 at 16:20 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Traditional in which sense? Asia always had the toploaders with the wash plates. They fill to the top with a full load, often by sensing the load. Brands are Toshiba, LG, Haier, Hitachi, Panasonic etc.

I have an LG Turbodrum that fills to the top. Made in Korea for the South American market. It ended up in the Netherlands in the end.

In Australia there is Simpson that still makes some traditonal models.

simpson.com.au/ListQUESTIONMARKRE...

In South America there is ofcourse

Brastemp (Whirlpool)

www.brastemp.com.br/categoria/lav...

I bet there are more.



Post# 886457 , Reply# 18   6/22/2016 at 16:29 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Forgot our friends from New Zealand:

www.fisherpaykel.com/nz/l...


Post# 886461 , Reply# 19   6/22/2016 at 16:58 (2,836 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

F&P and Simpson/Electrolux still have traditional style machines that follow the same build/configuration we've had in AU since the mid 80's. We dont build them in AU or NZ anymore though, they all come from Thailand.

Full fill, Long Stroke machines with top suspended baskets have been the norm here for 30 years. In the last 10 years since the severe water shortages up the eastern seaboard, the frontload machines really gained traction for the first time. During the 80's and 90's FL machines were mainly limited to Hoover, Miele, Bosch and Asko with some low volume imports from the UK and Italy.

The other reason that TL machines stayed the norm here for so long, was we had trade tariffs applied to imported appliances and it wasnt cost effective to retool the plants to build FL machines. Hoover spent the most money on modernizing their designs and was the first to fail, the rest of the machines stayed basically as they had been since the early 80's until production moved offshore.

Top loaders persisted even in units/apartments as all of our dryers were designed to wall mount above the washing machine, so stackability was never a requirement.

Australia also has had central hotwater systems as the norm since the 70's onwards, and as Louis said, its fair easier to keep 100L of water hot without a heater than it is to keep 20L hot.


Post# 886481 , Reply# 20   6/22/2016 at 18:42 (2,836 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin)        

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I wonder why 97% of British households have a washing machine (and 60% have a dryer) whereas in the USA the figure is much lower at only 85%.  Perhaps the reason that tens of millions of Americans are living with no washer at home is because Euro FLs are easier to accommodate despite many European homes being smaller on average than the equivalent home in the US.


Post# 886486 , Reply# 21   6/22/2016 at 19:15 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Many parts of the USA have very old (rental) housing stock

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As such cannot accommodate washing machines in each unit. New York City comes to mind.

There is also a large number of urban households (New York City, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc...) where again for various reasons individual apartments do not or cannot have laundry appliances.

This does not mean many have to do without, as it is common in multifamily housing to have a central laundry room equipped with washers and dryers.


Post# 886489 , Reply# 22   6/22/2016 at 19:34 (2,836 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin)        

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Launderess, yes those are exactly the reasons I believe that so many American households cannot accommodate traditional US TL machines and this is why ownership is lower, necessitating the use of shared machines.  Euro FLs could be accommodated more easily.


Post# 886496 , Reply# 23   6/22/2016 at 21:05 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
When places say "no" washing machine, they mean just

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*LOL*

There are plenty of offerings past and present from Miele, Asko, Malber, Creda, Hoover, Danby, etc... that will work in confined/limited space NYC apartments. Thing is they either have to be smuggled in and used on the sly, and or hope other tenants won't rat you out.

There have been cases of persons purchasing an apartment with a washer and dryer, only to find out the things were illegal and the co-op or condo wants them removed.

Avanti, Panda, Laundry Alternative and others that sell mostly made in Asia stuff do a brisk enough business here; people just want to avoid going to Laundromats.

Being as all this may apartments both new construction and older buildings are getting the message. People consider a W&D as much a necessity as a dishwasher. Lack of one or the ability to install can and has been a deal killer.



Post# 886521 , Reply# 24   6/23/2016 at 04:13 (2,835 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Top Loading Automatics In The US

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First of all we invented Front Loading Automatics in the late thirties, Top Loading Automatics in the early 40s and FL Combination washer-dryers in 1952 in the US.

 

Because our first FL washers were not as good at cleaning as an agitator style machine and were more prone to leaking at the door TL automatics took off. The orignal Bendix machine with its compact size tub and WHs silly slanted tangling machine just could not clean as well as an agitator washer, and I am sure that the excellent preforming WP-KM TLing automatics had a great deal to do with TLing automatics dominating the market here for so many years.

 

It was not until the combos started to arrive on the scene in the mid 50s and WH redesigned their FL washer in 1959 that Americans had a top performing FL washers available, by this time TL automatics were firmly preferred in the market place.

 

Top Load washers were NOT cheaper to build or inherently more reliable. Also many other countries also had mostly TL washers, much of south America, Canada, Australia and France until about 30 years ago to name a few.

 

Overall in today's market I prefer FL washers, BUT top load washers still out sell FL machines in this country, also new TL Hi E washers clean, rinse and spin extremely well and are generally rated as well as the best FL washers.

 

John L.


Post# 886524 , Reply# 25   6/23/2016 at 04:40 (2,835 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

Things have just really really changed in the last decade. I also think that Sears had a great deal to do with the reason that whirlpool is king now too. Kenmore washers used to be the cheapest to buy that you could get. Sears always had an incredible sale on them and in the 60's especially, one could be had for just a little over $100. No one else could touch them in that respect. And they were good machines too. I truly believe that IF Frigidaire had perfected their washing technique and eliminated the tangling from the start, things might have been different. They started out as one of the first to come up with a non bolt down automatic machine. If someone bought one of the early machines that tangled clothes into knots they usually NEVER bought another one again and cursed the day they bought that one! It really damaged the reputation of Frigidaire. After all, Frigidaire was already known for their refrigerators and had an advantage.

Post# 886540 , Reply# 26   6/23/2016 at 07:00 (2,835 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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A side note about France. They had TL washers, but they were mostly of the H-axis type, so frontloading action with a lid on top. Reason for their popularity is the smaller footprint in comparison to a frontloader. And that makes quite a difference in the very small (bijou!) but oh so expensive Parisian apartments.

The only V-axis machines I saw in France were American (mostly commercial Maytag) machines on camp sites. Never came across a V-axis machine in a private home.

Here's a video from our French friend, it's a Brandt toploader.








Post# 886547 , Reply# 27   6/23/2016 at 07:36 (2,835 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
A horizontal axis top loader

makes loading and unloading less of a bend.
Fisher and Paykel sold some dryers here in the states like that, but no US maker has ever made one.


Post# 886564 , Reply# 28   6/23/2016 at 08:14 (2,835 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Some older Miele models














Post# 886566 , Reply# 29   6/23/2016 at 08:45 (2,835 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Point is I think that Europe went from wringer washers to frontloaders and H-axis toploaders and on the American continent became mainstream after the wringer washers.

Post# 886580 , Reply# 30   6/23/2016 at 10:16 (2,835 days old) by extmaxspin (St Charles MI)        
Miele videos in #28

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Amazed at total lack of rollover in the white round body model in the last video in the post. I'd hope that the engineer that designed that agitator got fired. And why did Miele even let that go to production, unless it was something marketed strictly for delicate washloads.


Post# 886584 , Reply# 31   6/23/2016 at 11:41 (2,835 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Idea seems to be more about swishing laundry gently

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Back and forth through water rather than any serious roll over action. Some early twin tub and wringer washers had the same sort of agitation with similar designed beaters (winged tops).

Post# 886622 , Reply# 32   6/23/2016 at 18:32 (2,835 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
The best agitation

in my opinion was the dual action from Whirlpool which ratcheted the upper section. It pushed the load down with a screw prop action, while the bottom provided the roll over. Of course, the earlier "super surgilator" did well on it's own too.
Todays low water use top loaders have what they call a blooming effect.
Flowers and roses bloom. I want my garments clean without holes or tears in them.


Post# 886623 , Reply# 33   6/23/2016 at 18:43 (2,835 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I've had my Oasis-Cabrio for a year and a half now and have yet to find a single tear or snag in any of my clothing, and that's with primarily fully loaded basket fulls. It blooms beautifully and everything comes out cleaner and rinsed better than I've had from any traditional machine, even the Lady K belt-drive. If the well designed HE top-loaders are causing fabric damage or aren't cleaning well, it's because they are not being used properly.

Post# 886636 , Reply# 34   6/23/2016 at 19:57 (2,835 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

Well, i can answer that...

First: nobody "forced" manufacturers to do that.

It's a matter of market needs x market expectations x cost.

Let's compare US and Europe and the US and Brazil, so it can help you understand a little bit better.

Us had top loaders (low water and energy efficiency machines) Bu tthe US didn't have to worry about the natural resources and the resources were cheap. Why bother? Why waste a fortune on R&D and production, why make the washer cost more?

Europe: Since decades ago, several european countries were desperate because of natural resources. Many of those countries have to import electricity (and some of them even water) from other countries.


Brazil: It's the middle term among them. Brazil is super rich when we talk about natural resources. The Brazilian water is abundant and great (super soft) and up to sometime ago it was cheap. But the country economics is a disaster, so the manufacturers needed to discover different solutions. Top loaders were the standard, as the first washers were imported from the US, but then with the high cost of utility bills, people started to ask for efficient alternatives. Front loaders and HE top loaders would be a reasonable solution an american engineer would think. but then we have the laws... Front loaders not only cost more but they are on a different category of appliances and the taxes are higher, making them absurdly expensive for a consumer that doesn't have much money, but still have tons of laundry to do.
HE top laoders would be reasonable, but the Brazilian culture wouldn't accept it because the brazilian detergents must be like suds bombs. Omo, the most popular detergent brand is almost like fire supression foaming agent. Add 1/4 of scoop of it in a HE top loader and you'll have a disaster. (Whirlpool launched the Brastemp Vantage there... it was absurdly expensive and it was a disaster with brazilian detergents.

Solution: different washers.


It also has to do with the cosmetic design. Living here in the U.S. i can understand it much better.

In europe, many people have the washer in the kitchen. a front load is the best solution because of it's compact size and stylish design that matches the kitchen cabinets.

In the U.S. the washer and dryer are almost always hidden in a laundry closet or basement, why bother? The machines are square boxes, boring at certain point.

In Brazil, most homes and apartments have a laundry room and they are fairly big to have the washer, maybe a dryer (not too popular in Brazil), a cabinet to store cleaning products, the vacuum cleaner, and ironing board and even drying racks. (Some of you might remember i had over 10 washers in my laundry room and it was open to the balcony/barbecue grill in my apartment.)

As the washers are visible instead of hidden in a closet and also the cultural "show off" thing Brazilians have (Yes, Brazilian housewives are proud of showing off their washers to their friends just like some men here in the US are proud of showing off their lawn mowers and garage tools to other men) so the manufacturers had to spend fortunes to make the washers look like modern art sculptures. It's impossible to deny the modern Brastemp, Electrolux and Mueller washers have an interesting design. They're not "square metal boxes".

The same thing wouldn't work here in the US also because of the laundry habits. The brazilian washers are smaller than american ones. (only now they are getting bigger). Because the average Brazilian housewife loves to do laundry almost every day, sorting everything (a load of white sheets, then a load of white clothes, a load of white underwear and socks, everything again for light colors, then everythign again for dark colors and then the blacks, kitchen towels etc) while the average "American Housewife" is super busy and do laundry once or twice a week, tossing as much as possible in the washer (whites with dark colors with underwear, kitchen towels, the couch, the dog and if it would fit, even the husband).

I saw my roommate tossing a full load of mixed clothes, plus kitchen towels and a pair of sneakers all together in the washer. I almost fainted when i saw that. Even worse, it was in MY washer.




Post# 886657 , Reply# 35   6/24/2016 at 00:30 (2,835 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Thomas,

I see two assumptions in your message, that are not correct.

1. Older frontloaders were far from frugal. My mother's Miele W423 from 1975 used 150 liters of water for a 5kg load of laundry. That's very much like American toploaders from that time I bet. Electricity usage was quite bad too. They didn't fill all the way up to the top but they used more water than modern frontloaders. And with all the boil washes we did, the electricity meters spun very fast when doing laundry.

2. Washing machines in the kitchen is not a typical European thing. You only see that in the UK but in the rest of Western Europe it's very rare to have the washing machine there. Bigger houses have utility rooms, in smaller houses and apartments the washing machine is often in a bathroom.


Post# 886666 , Reply# 36   6/24/2016 at 01:36 (2,834 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

Well, my european experience is UK and Sweden. I forgot to mention the washers I've seen in bathrooms, (you're completelly right)

And i didn't go too back in history about front loader efficiency.


Post# 886697 , Reply# 37   6/24/2016 at 06:39 (2,834 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

I want to add/correct some information here that might clear up some of the questions asked.

Louis, yes, older frontloaders were not as frugal as the current ones. Still, of the 150 liters of water, how much was hot/heated? If I recall the machines my European neighbors brought with them, only prewash (optional) and main wash were heated, the rinses were cold. Meanwhile, American top loaders used to use 60-80 liters for the main wash, then another deep rinse in warm and we're not even talking about the overflow/spray rinses. It wasn't until the 70's energy crisis that they set the default for a cold rinse. While the energy requirements fell, it's still hard to get a top loader to use less than 150 liters, and the newish HE top loaders still lag behind the frontloaders.

Thomas, Brazil had waves of different kinds of machines. Up to early 60's, most were imported (the only brand from that era that I've seen my neighbors owning that were *made* in Brazil, were the Mueller machines made with wooden tanks) -- we had Hoovers with impellers and twintubs, Brastemp started importing Whirlpool machines and selling them under Sears and Brastemp labels, parts for the Bendix rubber tub and tumblers were imported from US and assembled in Brazil, Westinghouse imported some parts and made/assembled Laundromat frontloaders until the early 70's.

By the 70's, a wave of "Brazil is the best country in the world, foreign people suck!" struck the country, unfortunately, so Bendix changed their brand name to "Karina", a lot of other foreign brands disappeared as the economy progressively tanked and then we had hyperinflation in the 80's. By mid 70's, Whirlpool (thru the Brastemp label) was one of the only manufacturer of washers and dryers in Brazil, even Bendix rubber tub washers, which by that time were the most popular machines, disappeared from the market altogether -- that's when Industrias Pereira Lopes, which manufactured fridges and compressors for Tecumseh, started making the Westinghouse top loader under license, by early 80's or so they got tired of people not being able to pronounce Westinghouse and changed their brand name to Lavinia. That was the heat under Brastemp's butt to make them bring their "new" models (which had been made in US since the 60's or so) to Brazil. Late 70's saw the demise of frontloaders in Brazil.

Early 80's also brought a manufacturer named Enxuta, which made a 2.5 kg front loading washer so basic that it had no suspension -- during spin, if the machine started shaking, a pendulum stuck to a suction cup (as a "delay device") would make the machine tumble for 5-20 seconds and try spinning again. They were cheap (as opposed to only inexpensive), and sold well enough for the manufacturer to introduce a 4 kg machine a year or so later, and then a washer with detergent and softener dispenser. Only after that, is that top loading washers in Brazil started offering a softener dispenser.

During the late 80's, Whirlpool started importing a washer made by their subsidiary in Argentina into Brazil -- a proper front loading washer that could heat the wash water and had dispensers for prewash, wash, bleach and softener. It cost less than any of the "traditional" top loaders in Brazil. It started selling like hot cakes when people found out how well they cleaned and how much cheaper to run they were. This model was essentially an English model of a Philips front loader made in Argentina and sold in Brazil under the Frigidaire label, which there was owned by Brastemp at the time.

Rumors we heard at the time was that all hell broke loose at the CEO levels at factories like Brastemp, Industrias Pereira Lopes (Westinghouse) etc. Finally the truth came out: frontloaders which use just belts and vary the speed of the motor are *way* *way* *way* cheaper to make than top loaders with any significant kind of transmission. That could not stand, people need to make a profit, so the the Frigidaires sold for about 3 years and disappeared, only to come back under some other label but much more expensive than the toploaders. Just like dryers, which are cheap to make but cost as much as a top loader, all the frontloaders in Brazil (which at the early 90's or so included Bosch, under a Brazilian label I space out at the moment, Consul or Prosdoscimo, perhaps?) were introduced as "luxury" items because they heated the water and had dispensers. Even some top loaders started being sold with built-in heaters. Competition at the time was the only force that made Whirlpool/Brastemp introduce their "Mondial" ("World Washer") model in Brazil.

By this time, frontloaders had disappeared from US too, it was very hard to find any by 1992 when I moved here. When they were re-introduced as High Efficiency washers, they were put on the market at a premium, and we were told "they cost more to make". They don't. Arranging for a new factory building or a new line is expensive, but there is less material and labor in each machine than any top loader you care to point to, *except* perhaps the mechanism that Whirlpool used with motion loss as a transmission for one of their top loaders, they may still be using that as a HE top loader, I haven't kept current.

On yet another hand, *both* here and in Brazil, there has always been a very strong campaign warning any housewife that cared to listen that frontolading washers will cause a flood at the drop of a hat. Never mind that accidents when the machines are actually used properly, as opposed to someone forcing the door open when the machine is full, are about the same rate that top loaders flood your laundry room -- in fact, many top loaders used the same material for their water bellows as the front loaders' boots, the only difference is that GE, SpeedQueen, Hotpoint etc machines hid the rubber boot out of sight under the tub. This campaign, as we know from insiders, was led by companies like Procter & Gamble and Lever Brothers/Unilever, when they noticed that front loading washers needed much less detergent than the top loaders at the time.

This, coupled with the fact that Tide became an instant hit and was high sudsing (thus not so useful in frontloaders) *and* Tide began an aggressive ad campaign of putting their box of detergent in all top loading washers for sale and claiming that the "majority of manufacturers approve of Tide" and heavily suggesting the manufacturer paid for the box, when in fact they gave the boxes away (and said so in small print), as you can often see in the picture of the day here, was what made Americans and Brazilians "prefer" top loaders.

A very similar thing (competition forcing improvements) happened in Brazil when it comes to detergents -- by the early 80's several brands completely disappeared: ODD (Orniex Detergentes), BioZima, all of the Henkel brands (Viva, Mago, Gigante Branco [Weißer Riese?] etc) until we had only Unilever brands (OMO, Skip, BioPresto, Minerva etc). By the mid-80's Skip and BioPresto disappeared, only to come back as OMO Maquina when the frontloaders were re-introduced in Brazil. For a time OMO Maquina was extraordinarily expensive and hard to find, and I heard that it disappeared for a while until Procter & Gamble entered Brazil and started selling Ariel. It's not something we talk about a lot when I visit family there, so I'm not current with the state of affairs.

Suffice it to say, that the market forces are not as clear as we want to believe, it's not just the clients, or the government or the appliance manufactures or detergent/additive manufactures, but a combination of clients that want a washer that cleans really well without a need for long soaks or annoying pre-treatments and they'd rather not have to pay a lot in utilities, manufacturers and governments that want incentives for technologies they already have and don't want to develop new stuff etc.

For example, several of the large appliance manufacturers in US, had in their technician training materials that top loaders were better because they don't flood the laundry area, this continued until they introduced front loading washers into the market. Tide was "high efficiency" and still foamed a lot until Henkel entered the market here with Persil, then 3 months later, as if a miracle occurred, they "learned" how to make Tide TurboClean (probably from the same/similar formulas for Ariel in Europe, which they make) and finally, after more than 60 years claiming that suds were good, they start harping about how suds make you need to rinse again.

The reason I keep hitting the same piano key here with our club is that I keep hearing the same "propaganda" (which is basically a mix of falsehoods and half-truths spread out by manufacturers and anti-government folks) over and over and over again. We need to stop this cold -- *no one* will look out for us end users but ourselves, the establishment and its servants only want profit because they see the *investors* (stock market etc) as clients, we are the products to be sold.

Please stop for a bit, think about what is going on.

Cheers all,
-- Paulo.


Post# 886720 , Reply# 38   6/24/2016 at 10:10 (2,834 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
"well designed"

can mean different things to an engineer, a corporate production cost analyst, and a consumer.
Even my dental hygenist's Bosch has caused basket holes in clothing. I suspect it's when a heavy towel, or say a hoodie is on top of a more delicate article like a T shirt, forcing it against the basket during high final spin.
Now, a T shirt being a sturdy cotton fabric as well, you wouldn't use the delicate or low spin speed cycles. So, when my stepson throws a load in, and doesn't care that it is all piled on one side of the basket, or over loads it, then that is incorrect use.
What I described above is not.
Even the old top load direct drive side motor mount "shredmores" as some call them didn't do to clothing what some quote "well designed" newer machines do.
They are designed to "shred easily" after 6 to 8 years of use by a recycler at an energy star recycling plant. Then re smelted into a new appliance, etc.
Some energy star rating, as it takes more energy in natural gas, electricity, etc. to make another appliance more often.
Carry on.


Post# 886742 , Reply# 39   6/24/2016 at 11:20 (2,834 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

WOW Paulo, you went deep in history, that great.... It's hard to see somebody that knows so much about the brazilian market. Yes, you're right about every point (we siad the same but I didn't go too deep.

Working at Prosdocimo and then Electrolux for many years, i can say, front loaders do cost much more to produce. You'd be surprised about the production costs (a washer can cost as little as $38 to be produced, depending on the model) and front loaders are more expensive.

If something goes really wrong with a Top load, it just happened. The same with a front loader has a higher chance to kill or injury somebody, that's why R&D has to be much more intense on front loaders.if it happens, it will be the worst nightmare for an engineer or a designer.

a simple testing procedure can cost up to 200.000 dollars, and i mean only one test, for example sending a prototype to Autoliv in France to be crash-tested.

Front loader prototypes have at least 50 destructive tests, while a top loader have an average of 10. in other words, it can cost 10 or 20 million dollars only to create a front loader (R&D, tests, moulds, production line, etc) while only between 3 and 5 millions to create a top loader. the manufacturer has to spend that years before the first unit is sold to a final consumer.

Of course, this is considering creating a model from scratch. Most models on the market are a spin off of previous models, that's one of the reasons washers look like the same with only a few differences.

After the product is ready to be produced, yes, front loaders are cheaper because they use fewer parts. but the difference isn't big enough to pay off the R&D costs, that one of the reasons they cost more, not only because the manufacturers are greedy.


Post# 886748 , Reply# 40   6/24/2016 at 11:36 (2,834 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

Well, what I would like to know is what company manufactured a machine with a perforated tub that washed like the Kelvinator did? I saw a youtube of one in a different country and was kind of shocked, since it had the same agitator as the old Kelvinator and agitated the same way.

Post# 886784 , Reply# 41   6/24/2016 at 15:44 (2,834 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
You probably saw an ABC-O-Matic. IIRC Kelvinator bought ABC-O-Matic because they didn't have a laundry line and ABC no other appliances than washers and dryers.

Here's a picture with an ABC in it.

automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/00Sho...



Post# 886789 , Reply# 42   6/24/2016 at 16:00 (2,834 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

No, this was way after that. Had to have been in the 70s from the look of the machine. Seems like it was an Australian machine, but I could be wrong.

Post# 886794 , Reply# 43   6/24/2016 at 16:09 (2,834 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Is it possible to find it back, for instance in the history of your Youtube account?

Post# 886823 , Reply# 44   6/24/2016 at 22:05 (2,834 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

I keep seeing this trope that Americans in the 1950s simply had no concern whatsoever with what things cost or how much resources they used. But if you look at advertising from the era, it just isn't so. You'll see plenty of ads touting the cost- and resource-saving benefits of their products. If you watch the rotating PODs here, you'll see some washer ads billing their water-saving advantages -- not all of them, but a fair amount. Heck, that's why suds-savers were invented. It was especially important to people out West; if water is a problem there now, it was a lot worse in the 1950s before all of the water projects.

This applied to other products too. Most car models offered a choice of several engines, and except for high-end models there was nearly always an "economy" engine choice. Shell's gasoline advertising of the era made a huge deal out of the claim that your car would get better gas mileage on Shell gas. There were all kinds of claims for products that you could install on your car that would drastically increase gas mileage. Most of them were fraudulent, but it still shows that people were concerned about it, otherwise there would not have been a market.

Americans who were younger adults in the 1950s were ones who had grown up in the Great Depression. They learned to be thrifty, and most of them didn't suddenly change their minds just because the economy got better.


Post# 886973 , Reply# 45   6/26/2016 at 00:26 (2,833 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Thomas:

I'm far from surprised that some washers can cost as little as $38 to be manufactured -- in fact, if you go to Amazon, you can buy a Panda twin-tub for about $150 including shipping and handling and, the thing is, someone commented I think here in Automatic Washer that if one wants to buy a pallet with a hundred of them they cost less than $50 each.

But that just reinforces what I said, from my perspective: those machines have no transmission save for the pulleys and belts, they have large parts made of injected plastic, not a lot of labor for assembly. And given how little the design has changed in decades and that I'm willing to bet that no test to destruction was carried, *poof*, cheap machines.

Now, take a look at a very similar idea, a twin-tub by Danby, almost identical *except* that instead of an impeller, it has an agitator and consequently a transmission with gears and the whole machine is heavier. *Poof*, over $300 per item. That's a big difference, which I'm well aware it's not the difference in manufacturing costs, it might cost only about $50 more to make the transmission, but the transportation/distribution/marketing inflates that to a bigger difference for the end customer/user. And yet, a fully portable automatic top loading washer which uses an impeller can be had for less than that, but the transmission will be much simpler.

The point that you make about creating a brand new model is not lost on me. My point is slightly different: a lot of the times, when "new" appliances are introduced in US or, worse, in Brazil, what is actually happening is that Bosch, Whirlpool etc are moving entire manufacturing facilities lock, stock and barrel, to another country, in this case US or Brazil. Washer models that are over 10 years old in their original European countries, and whose manufacturing machines, tools and dies, injection molds etc were all amortized and paid for, but since the model is obsolete in Europe, they just moved the manufacturing facilities to another country and offer the model as "new" there. Just like the Philips front loader that was originally from UK but started being made in Argentina (where the power requirements were right [240V/50Hz]) and then exported to Brazil, they could cost much less, but they did not stay like that for long, as soon as the "Frigidaire" machines proved the market was receptive, they were "withdrawn", three months later same model with different brand and much more expensive price showed up.

Also, I'm willing to bet that Electrolux runs all the tests you are suggesting, but I'm not willing to bet American or Asian manufacturers do. Maybe instead of testing the entire prototype they do sub-assembly tests, or just "what the hell let's see what happens" in some in-house tests. But honestly, with all the bugs that we've seen in washers here, I have difficulties thinking that even one end user touched the product before it was released (I know that at least in Brazil, Electrolux used to go talk to users and even invited some to the labs, one of my neighbors was in the QA team and she said they used to examine complaints fully).

The other thing I wanted to say is that maybe manufacturers don't run all the tests for top loaders as they do for front loaders, but first off, those tests should have been seen as fixed costs, once they are done, it doesn't much matter if you produce two hundred thousand units or millions of units and, properly speaking, fixed costs should be amortized in 5 to 10 years, not on the first fifty thousand units. So the difference for the tests alone is that if you sell one million machines of each kind, the built-in cost for the tests is 20 bucks for the front loader but 5 bucks for the top loader, which is not that much in a machine that costs over $800. On the other hand, if the difference is on the transmission, that is a cost that re-occurs with each unit, and if each geared tranny costs $50 or $100 to make, you can't make the machine cheaper. The costs of the initial tests will approach nil if one makes 40 million washers like some models do.

Yet another point of view is that when top loaders spun at 400 rpm for delicates and 640 rpm for normal, maybe you could skip half the tests. When they are now at the 800-1100 rpm range, decent manufacturers should be running the same tests they run for the frontloaders, because the danger goes up with the forces, stresses and strain involved, and the 3 factors are linked to the spin speed, in fact some forces grow with the square of the spin speed, as opposed to everything else. We've seen some frontloaders that exploded and mostly things that were on top or the sides got affected, but when the HE impeller top loaders from Asia exploded, the *front* of the machines got affected too, that is, something at high speed could escape the confines of the washer and hurt a nearby user.

And just to press a bit more on what I'm saying, both in Brazil and US, tumble dryers, which are the machines that have the least material, number of parts and labor of all, still cost as much as the washer (front or top loader) it matches. It's pretty rare to re-design a dryer -- the design was finished 40 years ago, there might be some small changes over the decades to simplify assembly and/or make something cheaper, but the vast majority of "changes" are only cosmetic changes to make the machine match the new model year look. It's hard to find a dryer that costs less than the matching washer model. Look at dryers from a specific manufacturer, for example GE, Maytag, Whirlpool etc, and you find the same basic machine for less than $300 bucks to go with the bottom-of-the line washer and all dressed up in pretty clothes going for over $1,000 to go with the top-of-the line washer. Oh, sure, the "features" are different, the BOL doesn't have a delay timer, the MOL has a 4h delay timer, the TOL has a 12h delay timer or some simple change like that which is implemented in software anyway and can't justify 700 bucks difference *except* that they know the buyers will spring the money for the prettier dryer to match their prettier washer. Hell, people pay 300 bucks per pedestal (washer and dryer) despite the fact that now the machines are too tall to be used as a practical work surface to treat and/or fold the laundry, for example. And prior to the HE frontloaders showing up with pedestals (so people don't need to "stoop"), people were perfectly happy to use the front loading dryers anyway with no trouble. What's up with this fear of stooping people have, are they afraid someone will show up behind them and take their virginity or something? :-P

So, maybe we're in "violent agreement" here, or maybe we need to agree to disagree, but from my perspective, the logical conclusion is that the more parts and labor something has, the more it costs to *make*. How much it costs to the end user depends a lot on what the market will bear, but the manufacturers have over the decades pulled the wool over the customers' eyes over and over again, and it's not just Research & Development costs that make something expensive, as it's easy to see with tumble dryers.

And yes, in case any or you *are* wondering, I too overpaid for my dryers so they match the washers. ;-)

Cheers,
-- Paulo.



Post# 886982 , Reply# 46   6/26/2016 at 03:35 (2,832 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

Paulo, i didn't want to enter on the "Profit factor" because that's obvious.

And yes, the $38 production cost is the cost (not the price) for an average top loader from a famous manufacturer. Of course some models cost more, others can cost even less.

If i mention the chinese ones... gosh.... the $300 chinese top load costs $10 to be produced.

But of course there are several other costs that are added to the product until it reaches the final consumer.

But, the average is 90% of the tag price going straight to somebody's pocket. It can be the manufacturer, the distributor, the retailer, etc...


Post# 886983 , Reply# 47   6/26/2016 at 03:37 (2,832 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

Oh, before I forget.... all prototypes have to be tested.

And most of the times, the issues appear after the product is already on the market.

Without the tests, then yo'ud see a total disaster...


Post# 886998 , Reply# 48   6/26/2016 at 07:38 (2,832 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

I found the Kevinator orbital washer with the perforated tub on youtube. It was an Australian machine and the video was from Mayfan69. It is a 1965 machine.

Post# 887013 , Reply# 49   6/26/2016 at 09:49 (2,832 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
That must be this one then.








Post# 887026 , Reply# 50   6/26/2016 at 11:34 (2,832 days old) by brucelucenta ()        

Dat be it!!! Never have seen one like that before. All the ones I used to work on and use and sell were solid tub machines. In my region of the country, Oklahoma, we had a place called Otasco which stood for Oklahoma tire and supply company. In the 50's & 60's they had three brands of machines, Leonard (Kelvinator), Tempmaster (Norge) and Philco Appliances. They were plentiful in Tulsa, where I live and were as far as Missouri, Arkansas, Texas and Kansas. They sold a ton of Leonard machines back then and anyone could get credit there too, which is probably one of the reasons for their demise. Back then, if you needed appliances on credit you either went to Sears or Otasco. The field I have mentioned before of washers was much like the farm pictures that are on this site. All the trade in machines that Otasco did not have time or room to fix and resell ended up there. There were tons of Leonards, Philcos, and lots of other brands too. That is where I got machines to work on when I was a teenager and learned so much about them. There was even an old Apex like the one Robert has now. At the time, I wasn't really interested it it. Hindsight…..


Post# 887028 , Reply# 51   6/26/2016 at 12:44 (2,832 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
Several factors

panthera's profile picture

First off, suspensions are enormously more challenging for H-Axis washers than for top-loaders. The American patent situation made it super-duper expensive to sell H-Axis washers in the US with good suspensions.

This at a time when women were finally, finally freed from wringing out clothes. Anybody who has ever dealt with that knows why automatic TL washers, despite their limitations, (many, many, many as they were) became the American standard.

Second, as has been noted here - the stupid 120V limitations. 240 didn't really become common until the late 50s.

Third, and this one always upsets some of the ladies, so turn away, dears, US Americans are incredibly insular and provincial. They really believe they've got the best of everything, changing that is next door to impossible. TLs are The American Way, so we're stuck with HE shit for a very long time to come.

 


Post# 887043 , Reply# 52   6/26/2016 at 15:43 (2,832 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
finally freed from wringing out clothes.

launderess's profile picture
You ain't said nothing but a word! *LOL*


Have been sitting on the fence about either acquiring a wringer washer or Easy Spin-Drier to speed up wash days when say having to do large amounts of linens. Obvious solution would be to simply purchase a SQ or other uber sized front loader that could handle more than the Miele or AEG in one go, and do things faster.

Having done large amounts of linens in a tub using a mangle to get some of the water out before they go into either spin dryer or one of the automatics for a final rinse and then spin, yes am here to tell you can see how using a wringer would get old fast.

Granted mine are only hand powered but still... having to ensure things are spread properly along the rollers but kept away from the ends/bearings (where grease lurks)is more than one cares to bother with after the first few things.

Small items are fine, but larger such as sheets and blankets wear one out.


Post# 887063 , Reply# 53   6/26/2016 at 17:31 (2,832 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.))        
A SQ Front Loader:

whirlykenmore78's profile picture
Launderess, you would not regret it. Have had mine for 6 weeks now and can say I have NEVER used a better washer. Yes I can process laundry much faster with better results than with the WP TL.
WK78


Post# 887065 , Reply# 54   6/26/2016 at 17:44 (2,832 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Yes, one knows.....

launderess's profile picture
But have no room for another automatic washing machine.

Between the Miele and AEG that is it far as space wise for automatic washers. One would have to go and am not ready to put the former out to pasture, and the latter is only a few years in service and was nearly new when purchased.



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