Thread Number: 66067
/ Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Top load washers in the USA |
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Post# 886382 , Reply# 1   6/22/2016 at 05:59 (2,836 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)   |   | |
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Wasn't it cost?TL machines are cheaper to build than FL ones. |
Post# 886386 , Reply# 3   6/22/2016 at 07:06 (2,836 days old) by mayken4now (Panama City, Florida)   |   | |
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Post# 886398 , Reply# 4   6/22/2016 at 09:40 (2,836 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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Who ALLOWED this country....? What kind of question is that???
You make it sound like "someone" made a conscience decision about it: "Hmm, shall we build washing machines that are really inefficient and use LOTS of water and LOTS of electricity to clean our clothes... OR... shall we build a different type of washer that uses very little water to clean our clothes? Naaah!”
Come on, you are old enough to know / remember. Look back at that time in our history, it was a very selfish and wasteful time. Our country was prosperous and NO ONE thought about, cared about or knew the meaning of “conserving our resources”. Water and electricity was plentiful and inexpensive (just like gasoline, but that’s another thread).
Plus you have to look at the available technology and engineering of the time, then add in the cost of manufacturing and that’s what we got. Like Tolivac mentioned above, it costs less to build a top load machine, even today. Plus top load washers were the first design created and to be mass produced.
Look at other countries like Australia for example, they are where we were in the 60’s & 70’s, meaning the vast majority of all washing machines sold and used in Australia are non-HE top loaders.
The UK for example has front loaders out of necessity. They have always been more "aware" of water usage / waist, etc, plus apartments / flats over there are much smaller than here and they simply didn't (and still don't) have the room for large machines like we have here. This post was last edited 06/22/2016 at 10:01 |
Post# 886399 , Reply# 5   6/22/2016 at 09:40 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()   |   | |
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I guess so, just seems odd that in this country they were the preference for so many years. Some had a novel way of washing clothes too. It certainly seems to be all over now. |
Post# 886401 , Reply# 6   6/22/2016 at 09:55 (2,836 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)   |   | |
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I've spent a lifetime observing how even educated people are creatures of habit when it comes to some ordinary areas and things in their lives. I think most of our Grandmothers had/used Wringer washers at some point and they translated better to the Top Loading Automatic than to "horizontal axis" machines in the minds of those who did the laundry.
Furthermore, I think this preference is still strong even after the "High Efficiency" revolution. We started out strong about 10 years ago with all of our stores shifting over to Front Loaders only to see companies like Samsung, Whirlpool and LG bolster their lines with tons of top-loading "Calypso-style" high efficiency machines. I think the average American is still more comfortable with top-loaders.
I remember that Fisher & Paykel came out with a very interesting Top-Loading dryer a couple of years ago that is NLA. Did any of you have any experience with it? I'm kinda curious about it now and looking for one on Craigslist. |
Post# 886402 , Reply# 7   6/22/2016 at 09:58 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Toploaders are not exclusive to the USA. You can still find a lot of them in Asia and in South America. Also there are still a lot in Australia although frontloaders seem to gain a market share there. Europe is actually the only continent where frontloaders took over the market from the beginning.
I guess it's for various reasons that toploaders became popular in the USA. A few possible reasons: 1. Convenience. Toploaders are way easier to load than frontloaders. 2. They are more similar to wringer washers, so it's easier to make the change from a wringer washer to a toploader. 3. The 110V system which meant almost always no heater in the washers. In a toploader with a lot more water in it a higher temperature is easier maintained than in a frontloader that uses less water. Hot water becomes warm water very fast in a frontloader. Just my 2 cents. |
Post# 886406 , Reply# 8   6/22/2016 at 10:07 (2,836 days old) by RevvinKevin (Tinseltown - Shakey Town - La-La Land)   |   | |
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Post# 886415 , Reply# 9   6/22/2016 at 11:05 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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It is only for the American domestic market that top loading washing machines came to dominate. As have said before commercial laundries almost universally went with side loading machines. Mind you they could because the devices were heated and often powered by steam. This and they could be bolted into floors which made up for lack of suspension systems.
When you look at how washing clothes evolved it went from doing washing by hand in some sort of container to the addition of some sort of hand or later motor powered. Early in the last century there were more than a few washing machines being offered that were H-axis for domestic use. Thor, Hurley, Eden, Gainaday, Maytag, and others built such machines. Take a look at the various contraptions at the Olde Wash museum: www.google.com/searchQUES... My personal favourite and holy grail is the "Cylinder" washer by Thor (Hurley Machine Company). Have been trying for years to find one in decent to good condition... www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T... www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/T... |
Post# 886424 , Reply# 11   6/22/2016 at 12:09 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Were hobbled by a couple of things.
Commercial laundries had access to unlimited hot or even boiling water via their boilers. Those things not only provided steam to run machinery (via belts)but for heating water either in central tanks and or washers and other machines. The domestic setting OTOH was another story.... Many homes right up until an even after WWII lacked indoor plumbing connections for hot water. That meant boiling kettles or whatever on a fire then hauling that water to washing machine. Well after doing all that nonsense you aren't going to just dump that nice hot water after one use. So yes, while various portable "semi-automatic" H-axis washers were on the market early, once things began to move towards fully automatic machines you can see the problem. Next came the fact H-axis washers either must be bolted into several feet of concrete or have rugged suspensions. Bendix came out with the former and later the latter but since they held those patents everyone else either had to pay or find a work around. Even then not every home could or would have a machine bolted down. Finally there was the question of cleanser, and until post WWII that meant soap. Pure soaps and H-axis washing machines do not play nice. In fact any high sudsing detergent causes all sorts of problems. Commercial laundries had ways around this but for the average housewife things were different. Meanwhile it was generally known even early in the last century that H-axis washers were more gentle on clothing than those with central beaters. However until better designs, more powerful motors and so forth came along there was little makers of H-axis washers could do. Contrary to popular belief there were top loading washing machines in Europe before WWII. It was just post that event as many countries were rebuilding the benefits of H-axis washers became clear. |
Post# 886431 , Reply# 13   6/22/2016 at 13:26 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Post# 886434 , Reply# 14   6/22/2016 at 13:52 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Yes, like other parts of the world we had wringer washers too with agitators or with pulsators. However in Western Europe (with exception from the UK) the focus was on frontloaders when the automatics were introduced. The first automatic washing machine in Europe came from Constructa (1953/1954). There were some toploaders too, but those were automatic H-axis twintubs like the AEG Turnamat and fully automatic H-axis toploaders like the V-Zug Unimatic.
Before the introduction of the automatics in Europe, American washing machines were imported for the well to do. Mainly GE toploaders and Bendix frontloaders were imported. The first automatic washing machine that was imported was a Bendix in 1948 for a family in Rotterdam. I found in those pictures a picture of a typical French washtub from before WWII. Une machine à laver manuelle! An H-axis toploader! |
Post# 886447 , Reply# 15   6/22/2016 at 15:36 (2,836 days old) by brucelucenta ()   |   | |
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Ok, so my next question is this. Is there anywhere that still makes traditional top load washers in another country? Besides speed queen I mean. |
Post# 886454 , Reply# 16   6/22/2016 at 16:10 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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From Brazil and perhaps some other South American appliance manufacturers.
www.brastemp.com.br/categoria/lav... Then there is Mabe in Mexico. Quite honestly outside of North and South America and perhaps OZ and New Zealand the traditional top loading washer we know and love either never took hold or has been long since passed over in favor of H-Axis washers. There is a thriving USA export market for American appliances. Top loading washing machines are sought after by households in Israel, the Middle East, Europe and other parts of the world. www.eastwestintl.com/showsubcat.a... www.samstores.com/search-220-volt... IIRC Israel is big because many large Jewish families don't want to spend ages doing laundry. Top loaders are faster than front... For the Middle East and Israel semi-automatics and wringers once were in demand due to the ability to reuse water; something much appreciated in desert areas. www.kefintl.com/appliances-purcha... |
Post# 886456 , Reply# 17   6/22/2016 at 16:20 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Traditional in which sense? Asia always had the toploaders with the wash plates. They fill to the top with a full load, often by sensing the load. Brands are Toshiba, LG, Haier, Hitachi, Panasonic etc.
I have an LG Turbodrum that fills to the top. Made in Korea for the South American market. It ended up in the Netherlands in the end. In Australia there is Simpson that still makes some traditonal models. simpson.com.au/ListQUESTIONMARKRE... In South America there is ofcourse Brastemp (Whirlpool) www.brastemp.com.br/categoria/lav... I bet there are more. |
Post# 886457 , Reply# 18   6/22/2016 at 16:29 (2,836 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 886481 , Reply# 20   6/22/2016 at 18:42 (2,836 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin)   |   | |
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I wonder why 97% of British households have a washing machine (and 60% have a dryer) whereas in the USA the figure is much lower at only 85%. Perhaps the reason that tens of millions of Americans are living with no washer at home is because Euro FLs are easier to accommodate despite many European homes being smaller on average than the equivalent home in the US. |
Post# 886486 , Reply# 21   6/22/2016 at 19:15 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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As such cannot accommodate washing machines in each unit. New York City comes to mind.
There is also a large number of urban households (New York City, San Francisco, Los Angeles, etc...) where again for various reasons individual apartments do not or cannot have laundry appliances. This does not mean many have to do without, as it is common in multifamily housing to have a central laundry room equipped with washers and dryers. |
Post# 886489 , Reply# 22   6/22/2016 at 19:34 (2,836 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin)   |   | |
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Post# 886496 , Reply# 23   6/22/2016 at 21:05 (2,836 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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*LOL*
There are plenty of offerings past and present from Miele, Asko, Malber, Creda, Hoover, Danby, etc... that will work in confined/limited space NYC apartments. Thing is they either have to be smuggled in and used on the sly, and or hope other tenants won't rat you out. There have been cases of persons purchasing an apartment with a washer and dryer, only to find out the things were illegal and the co-op or condo wants them removed. Avanti, Panda, Laundry Alternative and others that sell mostly made in Asia stuff do a brisk enough business here; people just want to avoid going to Laundromats. Being as all this may apartments both new construction and older buildings are getting the message. People consider a W&D as much a necessity as a dishwasher. Lack of one or the ability to install can and has been a deal killer. |
Post# 886521 , Reply# 24   6/23/2016 at 04:13 (2,835 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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First of all we invented Front Loading Automatics in the late thirties, Top Loading Automatics in the early 40s and FL Combination washer-dryers in 1952 in the US.
Because our first FL washers were not as good at cleaning as an agitator style machine and were more prone to leaking at the door TL automatics took off. The orignal Bendix machine with its compact size tub and WHs silly slanted tangling machine just could not clean as well as an agitator washer, and I am sure that the excellent preforming WP-KM TLing automatics had a great deal to do with TLing automatics dominating the market here for so many years.
It was not until the combos started to arrive on the scene in the mid 50s and WH redesigned their FL washer in 1959 that Americans had a top performing FL washers available, by this time TL automatics were firmly preferred in the market place.
Top Load washers were NOT cheaper to build or inherently more reliable. Also many other countries also had mostly TL washers, much of south America, Canada, Australia and France until about 30 years ago to name a few.
Overall in today's market I prefer FL washers, BUT top load washers still out sell FL machines in this country, also new TL Hi E washers clean, rinse and spin extremely well and are generally rated as well as the best FL washers.
John L. |
Post# 886540 , Reply# 26   6/23/2016 at 07:00 (2,835 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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A side note about France. They had TL washers, but they were mostly of the H-axis type, so frontloading action with a lid on top. Reason for their popularity is the smaller footprint in comparison to a frontloader. And that makes quite a difference in the very small (bijou!) but oh so expensive Parisian apartments.
The only V-axis machines I saw in France were American (mostly commercial Maytag) machines on camp sites. Never came across a V-axis machine in a private home. Here's a video from our French friend, it's a Brandt toploader. |
Post# 886547 , Reply# 27   6/23/2016 at 07:36 (2,835 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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makes loading and unloading less of a bend. Fisher and Paykel sold some dryers here in the states like that, but no US maker has ever made one. |
Post# 886564 , Reply# 28   6/23/2016 at 08:14 (2,835 days old) by logixx (Germany)   |   | |
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Post# 886566 , Reply# 29   6/23/2016 at 08:45 (2,835 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 886580 , Reply# 30   6/23/2016 at 10:16 (2,835 days old) by extmaxspin (St Charles MI)   |   | |
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Post# 886584 , Reply# 31   6/23/2016 at 11:41 (2,835 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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Post# 886623 , Reply# 33   6/23/2016 at 18:43 (2,835 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I've had my Oasis-Cabrio for a year and a half now and have yet to find a single tear or snag in any of my clothing, and that's with primarily fully loaded basket fulls. It blooms beautifully and everything comes out cleaner and rinsed better than I've had from any traditional machine, even the Lady K belt-drive. If the well designed HE top-loaders are causing fabric damage or aren't cleaning well, it's because they are not being used properly.
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Post# 886657 , Reply# 35   6/24/2016 at 00:30 (2,835 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Thomas,
I see two assumptions in your message, that are not correct. 1. Older frontloaders were far from frugal. My mother's Miele W423 from 1975 used 150 liters of water for a 5kg load of laundry. That's very much like American toploaders from that time I bet. Electricity usage was quite bad too. They didn't fill all the way up to the top but they used more water than modern frontloaders. And with all the boil washes we did, the electricity meters spun very fast when doing laundry. 2. Washing machines in the kitchen is not a typical European thing. You only see that in the UK but in the rest of Western Europe it's very rare to have the washing machine there. Bigger houses have utility rooms, in smaller houses and apartments the washing machine is often in a bathroom. |
Post# 886666 , Reply# 36   6/24/2016 at 01:36 (2,834 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)   |   | |
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Well, my european experience is UK and Sweden. I forgot to mention the washers I've seen in bathrooms, (you're completelly right) And i didn't go too back in history about front loader efficiency. |
Post# 886784 , Reply# 41   6/24/2016 at 15:44 (2,834 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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You probably saw an ABC-O-Matic. IIRC Kelvinator bought ABC-O-Matic because they didn't have a laundry line and ABC no other appliances than washers and dryers.
Here's a picture with an ABC in it. automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/00Sho... |
Post# 886789 , Reply# 42   6/24/2016 at 16:00 (2,834 days old) by brucelucenta ()   |   | |
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No, this was way after that. Had to have been in the 70s from the look of the machine. Seems like it was an Australian machine, but I could be wrong. |
Post# 886794 , Reply# 43   6/24/2016 at 16:09 (2,834 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 886983 , Reply# 47   6/26/2016 at 03:37 (2,832 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)   |   | |
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Oh, before I forget.... all prototypes have to be tested. And most of the times, the issues appear after the product is already on the market. Without the tests, then yo'ud see a total disaster... |
Post# 886998 , Reply# 48   6/26/2016 at 07:38 (2,832 days old) by brucelucenta ()   |   | |
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I found the Kevinator orbital washer with the perforated tub on youtube. It was an Australian machine and the video was from Mayfan69. It is a 1965 machine. |
Post# 887013 , Reply# 49   6/26/2016 at 09:49 (2,832 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 887028 , Reply# 51   6/26/2016 at 12:44 (2,832 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)   |   | |
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First off, suspensions are enormously more challenging for H-Axis washers than for top-loaders. The American patent situation made it super-duper expensive to sell H-Axis washers in the US with good suspensions. This at a time when women were finally, finally freed from wringing out clothes. Anybody who has ever dealt with that knows why automatic TL washers, despite their limitations, (many, many, many as they were) became the American standard. Second, as has been noted here - the stupid 120V limitations. 240 didn't really become common until the late 50s. Third, and this one always upsets some of the ladies, so turn away, dears, US Americans are incredibly insular and provincial. They really believe they've got the best of everything, changing that is next door to impossible. TLs are The American Way, so we're stuck with HE shit for a very long time to come.
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Post# 887043 , Reply# 52   6/26/2016 at 15:43 (2,832 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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You ain't said nothing but a word! *LOL*
Have been sitting on the fence about either acquiring a wringer washer or Easy Spin-Drier to speed up wash days when say having to do large amounts of linens. Obvious solution would be to simply purchase a SQ or other uber sized front loader that could handle more than the Miele or AEG in one go, and do things faster. Having done large amounts of linens in a tub using a mangle to get some of the water out before they go into either spin dryer or one of the automatics for a final rinse and then spin, yes am here to tell you can see how using a wringer would get old fast. Granted mine are only hand powered but still... having to ensure things are spread properly along the rollers but kept away from the ends/bearings (where grease lurks)is more than one cares to bother with after the first few things. Small items are fine, but larger such as sheets and blankets wear one out. |
Post# 887063 , Reply# 53   6/26/2016 at 17:31 (2,832 days old) by whirlykenmore78 (Prior Lake MN (GMT-0500 CDT.))   |   | |
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Post# 887065 , Reply# 54   6/26/2016 at 17:44 (2,832 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)   |   | |
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