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Thread Number: 6624
Euro Washer and Dryers. Which Brand do you like? |
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Post# 132904 6/3/2006 at 09:45 (6,530 days old) by toggleswitch  (New York City, NY) |
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Ok we have established that a Euro-condenser dryer heats the room w/out humidity. Good for winter. So now I am thinking about getting a set of W & D. So may I ask our international friends on that continent to provide a list of favorites, in order (top 5 to 7 say) then a short reason as to why? Are ASKOs decent? THANKS! | ||
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Post# 132945 , Reply# 1 6/3/2006 at 14:09 (6,530 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Since not all European brands are available in the USA this I won't make it to 7 brands. #1. My all time favourite is Miele. It's the best you can get, but also the most expensive. And it's a pity the models on the American market are dumbed down. The stupidest thing is that they don't have separate rinse and spin and spin only cycles. I especially like the new models available on the European market, very sleek modern design. I will post a few pictures later. #2. Second best is AEG. Unfortunately on your side of the pond only available in Canada. AEG was always Miele's biggest competitor on the Dutch market. Both had a 20% share, leaving the rest to all the other brands. #3. Slightly hesitant I say Asko. Not as refined as Miele and AEG. The chassis of an Asko is very sturdy. They are very flexible machines. A big pro is the door of the washer that doesn't have a gasket. There are however a few downsides. In the past Asko's have not been very reliable machines, there have been many posts on THS about that. But an extended warranty could take care of that. A big minus of the dryer is that the drum tumbles only one way. Other European dryers tumble both ways to prevent bigger items from balling up. Because the drums of European dryers are much smaller you really need a two way tumble system. Another thing that would worry me is the customer service in the USA. I have read many horror stories about it. #4. Bosch and Siemens. Same machines, different labels. In general I like the design of the Siemens machines better than of the Bosch ones. There were also some horror stories on THS about Bosch. But I don't know if the problems are frequent or not. As for the other brands (don't know exactly what is available), I would stay away from them. Louis | ||
| Post# 132956 , Reply# 3 6/3/2006 at 16:29 (6,530 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK) | ||
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Glossary BSH - Bosch-Siemens Hausgeraete. The company that owns the domestic appliance divisions of Bosch and Siemens. Jon | ||
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Post# 133044 , Reply# 6 6/4/2006 at 03:59 (6,529 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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From Best to Worst
1) Miele. Unfortunately, US Miele are set to the "Dick and Jane" level. Get a German or UK-English user's guide so you can really enjoy the machine. Longest lived, highest quality, best service, excellent results, a company which chose the quality niche to survive and has stuck with it. 2) AEG. If you can find one - not as long lived as Miele-for a while there, the electronics kept count of the number of cycles run then demanded a service call. That one did them a lot of harm in marketing their electronic products. They claim to have eliminated the young, dynamic marketing managers who thought that one up. Outstanding parts service, usually test out #2 (behind Miele) in the consumer guides. Much cheaper than Miele but will outlast most anything else. Like Miele, they tend to build one "style" for many years if not decades, improving the ergonomics and fixing little problems along the way. 3) BSH - (Bosch-Siemens Haushalt) This is the division of the enormous Siemens group which builds appliances. They have the easiest to use machines, often have beautiful design (FA Porsche) and come in a very close third right behind AEG. I have never had service problems with them, but the nightmares you hear in the 'States can't all have been made-up or exaggerated. If I lived with someone who was, what is the current American politically correct term for mentally impaired...ah, yes, "intellectually challenged" - then these would be the clear first choice. Or if I lived in a commune with a bunch of het men. Same thing in the end. 4)Gah, you did say five or more....Hmm, ok, other Electrolux stuff apart from AEG. Tests well in the consumer guides. Maybe Zanussi, if you can get it. Which you can't. Pity, that. 5)I shall now promptly be flamed by the rest of the Europeans, but, ok: Candy. Stipulated, Candy has bad quality. Candy also has cutting edge design - mechanically as well as in appearance and ergonomics. Everyone I know here in Germany has, at one point or other sighed and said: "If only Candy were built like Miele"... Anything "British" isn't. Hoover and Hotpoint and so on are all now one big trashy conglomerate. The Brits have the same problem the Americans have - they really believe in their country so tend to buy "domestic". The manufacturers use this patriotism shamelessly. Both in the UK and the US. Now that so many other Europeans have chimed in with me about the Whirlpool/Bauknecht group, I needn't warn you away from them. I know we tend to look at our vintage Kenmores and Whirlpools and have positive associations, but read the other posts on the subject - they make me sound reasonable. Whirlpool=Poorest Quality. Anything with "Euro-" in the name. Just a marketing ploy. I repaired too many over priced Askos to have anything good to say about them, so I left them off the list. At half the price they would be number three on my list. But as things stand, forget it. You are being taken to the cleaners, literally. **** We are comparing two different things here. The least reliable Candy is built to quality standards several million times higher than the shit made in the US for the domestic market. We expect our machines not to break for at least eight years over here. Funny, when US manufactured goods are exported to Europe, they are of very high quality. It is not that the Americans can't build quality, rather - the managers know that they can get away with junk in the 'States, so they do...Just put a US flag on it and folks will spend their hard earned money for it, thinking they are helping their country. Oh, dryers. Hmm, I don't like European dryers. Even with reverse tumbling they are too small for my taste. Stick with a US machine built before quality went to hell - GE, Maytag, (real) Frigidaire. | ||
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Post# 133070 , Reply# 9 6/4/2006 at 09:21 (6,529 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 133072 , Reply# 10 6/4/2006 at 09:25 (6,529 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Jon,
I am sorry - the first time I visited England, I made the horrid mistake of refering to the British Isles as being "European". My Scottish relatives and our English host spent a solid evening disabusing me of that notion. Since then, whenever I speak of "Europe" I mean Germany, France, Italy, Denmark, the Netherlands, etc....everything up to the Jersey Islands...but not the UK. The quality of white goods made for sale in the UK has long been miserable; it is easily on a par with the stuff sold in the US. The manufacturers - regardless of their location - market goods at a quality level which is the lowest the market will bear. American firms produce much higher quality lab equipment for the German market - this I know first hand from our university labs - The same applies to the UK. Germans and Italians are, in general, just plain bitchy-er about bad quality than are the English and so get higher quality products. Hotpoint was once a great brand...since Merloni took them over it has been all downhill. I am sorry your mum had so much trouble with Bosch. I never had trouble getting replacement parts from them, but then - I had a franchised dealer's licence number whenever I rang them and it was in their interest to keep me happy. I have often read that their service outside of Germany is unbelievable. The eight years aren't made up - that is the sum often quoted in consumer surveys taken by testing agencies. Again, here on the continent. We've seen some tremendous differences between "my" Europe and "your" Europe in the past - I suspect we shall see others in the future. No doubt about it - and I hope you aren't offended by this - their is a lot more in common between the UK and the US then between the continent and the UK. Keven | ||
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Post# 133076 , Reply# 14 6/4/2006 at 10:22 (6,529 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Jon,
I wish you were right, but I have seen it myself. First, with lab equipment - the stuff we get from HP over here is way better put together (I know, this is mostly a matter of appearance) then the same equipment I see at CSU when I am in the states. And HP is one of the best. Second, I have two identical Sony laptops. One built for the US market, one for Europe. Same "specs", but the European laptop has 0 dead pixels and the US came with two...and the seller informed me this was well within the range permitted under the Sony designation. Since I had bought the European one first (obviously) I went back and asked what was up when I returned to Germany. The dealer informed me that they wouldn't accept anything less than perfect displays, 'cause the customers wouldn't buy them. Seen the same thing with other products...but I think this is simply one of those areas where we see things differently. Seriously, why wouldn't companies adjust their quality to suit the target markets? It makes perfect sense from a young, dynamic manager standpoint...where quality is not an ideal, but a cost factor. | ||
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Post# 133077 , Reply# 15 6/4/2006 at 10:29 (6,529 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Bosch build quality
Jon, I think that sort of proves the point...but it is sad, sad, sad the way "patriotism" is used to sell products. When my folks had their car accident last year and I had to buy them a new car, my dad insisted it be "American". OK, fine - I found one with excellent safety ratings. Nearly as good as Volvo or Volkswagen. Now the car has been in the shop three times since then for recalls and various parts falling off... The funny thing about all of this (funny as in "crazy", not as in "ha-ha") is that the same decline in quality led to US consumers buying Japanese cars instead of the domestic - and even today, when the Japanese cars are more expensive they still hold their market share. Once the Chinese have ramped up their quality, I predict the end of all the rotten US manufacturers. Merloni won't be far behind over here. First you introduce better quality at a lower price. Then you keep the quality up while gradually adding "premium" features. Then you have loyal customers and can kill the lower-quality competition off, even though you charge higher prices. | ||
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Post# 133299 , Reply# 17 6/5/2006 at 12:24 (6,528 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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snobbery
Paul, You haven't seen snobbery until you encounter the Germans who made a killing in the market highs of the 1990s. They all descended on us here in Munihc. Such conspicious consumption - it was just discusting. It also gave the flashy, cheaply built but dearly sold brands a foot in the door. Beko is not necessairly poor quality - I have a fridge from them which is going on 6 and I must say it has proven very reliable. Certainly form and fit are not as good as the BSH cousins, but for the price absolutely in order. | ||
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Post# 133346 , Reply# 19 6/5/2006 at 14:00 (6,528 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Mega Cake Alert!!!
Hi Toggs, you`re not afraid of courting controvesy are we!!!...lol My list would be : Maytag Asko - What I use, does the job, and its niche, dont know anyone else with one... Miele, quality and reliability with a family philosophy AEG, latest jetstream machines quite something Gorenje, sexy kit with fastest 2000 rpm on market Siemens, pulls no punches, clean lines Electrolux Zanussi, reliable & proven Whirlpool, from Philips Euro roots, proven reliable brand Hoovermatic makes a very interesting point, loads of people I know use Servis, Beko, Indesit, Tricity and get perfect results from them , the question is "Reliability" a Trabant car will get you from A to B just like a Rolls-Royce or Merceded etc...just a question of luxuary, comfort & reliability....whatever rocks you drum... Same with washers, you put your clothes in a Beko or Miele select the prog and voila" Out comes Clothes, Washed Rinsed & Spun dry....Nothing more or less, Just for clarification the Asko does as much as the Miele and other German machines, it DOES have different & variable wash rythms and water levels as well as a host of other goodies..... The Danger we have here is that people are almost turned OFF by the "Miele Mantra" like hello people, its just a washer, a very good one at that with a philosophy and history second to non... Chocolate pound cake Steve!!! | ||
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Post# 133389 , Reply# 21 6/5/2006 at 14:58 (6,528 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Baklava anyone? | ||
| Post# 133426 , Reply# 22 6/5/2006 at 16:29 (6,528 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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Post# 133550 , Reply# 23 6/5/2006 at 23:32 (6,528 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 133589 , Reply# 24 6/6/2006 at 02:54 (6,527 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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niggle
My Scottish relations use the term to refer to a minor or trivial (from my perspective, not their's) problem or issue or concern. My "niggle" about my last Miele washer was its tendency to build up dirt around the yellow door release. That was its only flaw, but it bugged the hell out of me. It is hard to know which modern machines are worth it or not. Certainly, anyone who reads our forums knows how I feel about Whirlpool/Bauknecht. Yet, if I were asked to recommend a washer to someone who was not able to service it themselves and lived somewhere in the country where the only local service was Whirlpool...then I would say buy Whirlpool! Get the extended warranty by all means, but buy one. A true, dyed-in-the-wool snob is not hard to find - just ask your relatives to any holiday dinner. Half my family is "proud to be American" the other half "stolz, deutscher zu sein" and the other half still grumbles about the Clearances (the Scottish Highlands were, oh never mind. If you don't know, trust me - you don't want to. Not the best or brightest moment for England...and from the way my relations natter on, you'd think it happened this morning.) Instead of enjoying the moment, a real snob concentrates on making himself (most snobs I know are men, feel free to make that a her- if you must) and everyone else miserable. Back when I had money to burn (long time ago) I would buy any car but a black BMW cabriolet...anyone living in Europe can guess why. Or Allessi anything... I was raised to worry about getting the best quality for my money and not to care what the neighbours thought. Now that I live in Munich, a truly lovely city but one just crawling with the got-rich-quick set (schiki-micki) it does get trying at times... | ||
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Post# 133595 , Reply# 26 6/6/2006 at 04:01 (6,527 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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oh, Jon,
I'd forgotten that one. Thanks (not) for reminding me. I spent more time on my knees cleaning up fabric softener dribble under that durn machine than... Well, yup - that is a gen-u-ine niggle. Oh, and that annoying noise (like it is being strangled) the Mieles make when they pump the water out. We all know they have good seals...but that is just plain silly. Got another "niggle" in an e-mail five minutes ago: One of my Italian cousins wanted to know why they weren't half the family. Ok: Yup, after the Scots glare the "Sassenachs" down, the Germans huff that they are having right about, well, basically everything, and the Americans defend every decision George #43 ever made the Italians point out how much better everything tasted back in the old-country. Snobbery: When you have nothing to be proud of in your behaviour, you latch onto something external (or your family history) and say that makes you better than everyone else... | ||
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Post# 133601 , Reply# 28 6/6/2006 at 05:36 (6,527 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Jon - | ||
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Post# 133620 , Reply# 30 6/6/2006 at 07:03 (6,527 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Mine is bigger than yours.
Brand snobbery. Just so we are clear on this issue........ ANYONE in a SUV (of any brand) or a snobbish foreign car (BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Rolls-royce, Bentley) may not EVER break any traffic regualtions and/or pull any elitisim with me. Example: No turn signal? You may not cut me off, or changes lanes into mine. On the cell-phone(mobile)which is illegal in this state without a hands-free headset? DOUBLE WHAMMY. On the phone in a fancy car, in the left lane doing 30 mph when the speed linit is 75 mph? (60 km/h and 120 km/h)? I will come in front of you and slow down till you have to move to the right where you belong. Viscious no. I just can't stand selfishness and self-centeredness. [But who is going to correct me? LOL] Ditto appliances. No honey, your million dollar set of appliances does not impress me if you order take-out (take-away) and your wash is dirty. One good house fire and you are wiped out, and your material possessions are gone. One good car crash and your looks and health are gone. Work on the inside. It does shine through. OH MY, BITTER IN AISLE ONE. LOL Thanks for letting me vent. TE HE HE HE HE We now return to the theme of this thread and our regulary scheduled programme..... | ||
| Post# 133653 , Reply# 31 6/6/2006 at 09:23 (6,527 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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Ask and ye shall recieve . . . after having it shipped.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO peterh770's LINK on eBay | ||
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Post# 133771 , Reply# 32 6/6/2006 at 15:16 (6,527 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Word is something "big" is coming down the pike from Mile for the USA market. Neihter my Miele dealer nor anyone else will say what, but several rumors abound. One is that Miele is going to introduce a 120v washer for the US market, the other is a larger capacity Miele unit which could be based upon their smallest commercial units. Miele offered dual 120v/220v powered washers previously in the US, so it is not too far fetched to see them again. What is clear Miele units, while great will never command more than a niche in the United States market due to their perceived small size and special electrical requirements. Yes i KNOW one can fit quite allot of laundry in both the 5kg and 6kg units, but to many Americans perception on the selling floor is what closes the deal, and when compared to other "small" units like those sold by GE or the Electrolux machines, the Miele is small. Also KNOW that supposedly all homes have 220v connections in the laundry for dryers, but as many times as people say this , it is not true. There are many, many homes, apartments, condos, etc which do not have 220v power and persons looking for laundry appliances either cannot or will not go through with the required electrical work needed to use Miele laundry appliances. Think with the decreased emphasis on "boil" washes, a 120v washer with at least a 1500 watt heater would be fine for most purposes. My Miele W770 is hooked up to 120v/20amp service (it is one of the early dual power units), and will heat tap cold water to 140F, quite quickly. Can achive faster heating or temps in excess of 160F to 200F by either using a hot or warm water fill, or resetting the mechanical timer back to the heating portion of the wash cycle for longer heating. Saw the the Miele listed on eBay, if anyone is considering bididng, make sure the owner still has the shipping braces, as the unit cannot be moved without them. Am told many Miele installers take the braces away with them, and replacing them is very dear. Launderess | ||
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Post# 133799 , Reply# 33 6/6/2006 at 17:14 (6,527 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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| Post# 133915 , Reply# 34 6/6/2006 at 23:22 (6,527 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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Post# 134000 , Reply# 35 6/7/2006 at 10:54 (6,526 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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never move a Miele without the braces. ever
I sold and delivered a billion washers in the late '80's here in Germany. We always took care to install the braces the exact way the manufacturers specified - and to remove then correctly, too. These machines are radically different from US toploaders. German engineers assume that their customers will move the machines braced so put lots of easily breakable 'thingies' in the path of destruction when the machines are tipped off their normal plane. At the very least you risk a shattered cement block in the machine...and that is no fun to replace. If the idiot service in-duh-vi-du-als took the braces with them, you can almost always make do just as well with bolts and washers...assuming you can find metric threading... | ||
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Post# 134021 , Reply# 37 6/7/2006 at 11:51 (6,526 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Ahem Keven...
Miele's don't have cement blocks. Their counterweights are made of cast iron. In case you want to move a frontloader and you don't have the shipping bolts anymore and you can't find replacements either you pack the drum really full with blankets and towels until it's hard to close the door. It's not perfect, but it will at least help a little to prevent the drum from moving around.
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Post# 134113 , Reply# 38 6/7/2006 at 17:23 (6,526 days old) by toggleswitch (New York City, NY) |
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Post# 134117 , Reply# 39 6/7/2006 at 17:33 (6,526 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Louis,
I was, as so often, unclear. Miele uses cast iron in their FL washers as inertial dampers (the things which kept going wrong on the Enterprise). But they also use concrete in some of their dishwashers. And that is what I had in my mind - the mental picture of my poor old Miele Geschirrspüler lying at the bottom of the steps with the door counterweight snapped into little pieces. AEG and BSH use concrete. I seem to recall the beautiful Phillips top-loaders we both so admire having fairly light concrete blocks bolted to the top front of the outer tub? Right below those ridiculously small springs to the left and right. Cast iron or concrete - if you don't anchor it, it will cause all sorts of havoc in the machine. Louis, I bet most of the folks in the 'States wonder what on EARTH we are nattering on about. Simple, folks - Mieles clean so well cause the still "pound" the dirt out of the clothes. Louise maintains with big anvils of cast iron and me with big concrete blocks torn from the Wall. :-))) | ||
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