Thread Number: 69784  /  Tag: Detergents and Additives
Making Persil
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Post# 927209   3/16/2017 at 15:07 (553 days old) by VacuumGuy99 (North Western PA)        

So I've heard from looking around that original persil was a mixture of an oxygen bleach (perborate), an alkaline builder (metasilicate), and soap. I'm also using phosphate in my mix. So I'm going to use either fels or homemade soap and need to know approximate ratios or measurements of oxygen bleach and metasilicate. If anyone know a any thing that might help I'd appreciate it. Thanks all

Post# 927850 , Reply# 1   3/20/2017 at 02:39 (549 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
A thought provoking question.
In a standard powdered detergent, the builder can be as high as 40% of the total weight.
With Persil.. Who knows
So this is just a suggestion but as you experiment to reach a workable formula, measure your ingredients by weights. Start out with a total weight say 16 oz. Create your formula by weight and percentages of each ingredient, so that when you find what works, it can be produced to a large size exactly with no variation.
HTH let us know how you do.
Also, will you be doing this with a TL machine or FL?
And what type of homemade soap? I may be able to help you with that.

Post# 928024 , Reply# 2   3/20/2017 at 22:46 (548 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        
I Didn't

stan's profile picture
Word that very well.
For example, you could do a test batch of say 16oz Total weight.
Soap 8.8 oz (55%)
Perborate 2.4 oz (15%)
Metasilicate 2.4 oz (15%)
STPP 2.4 oz (15%)
If you find this works, you can use those percentages to duplicate the formula to make another 16 ounces, or 50 lbs...

Post# 929160 , Reply# 3   3/27/2017 at 02:55 (542 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        
What happend with this ?

stan's profile picture
Did you come up with anything Mark?

Post# 929415 , Reply# 4   3/28/2017 at 13:18 (541 days old) by VacuumGuy99 (North Western PA)        

So far we have ordered the phosphate and metasilicate in bulk (50 lbs each) and I found a book online for making industrial amounts of detergent so I'm going to try one of there recipes. Probably going to need to get some sodium silicate to keep the mixture from clumping and might try to find an alcohol based surfactant if I cant get the soap to work but the process is in motion.

Post# 929417 , Reply# 5   3/28/2017 at 13:23 (541 days old) by VacuumGuy99 (North Western PA)        

I probably should have mentioned that the book I found lists chemicals in percentage not in volume so it's possible to make a container at a time and not have some crazy huge amount of premixed detergent laying around.

Post# 929432 , Reply# 6   3/28/2017 at 14:52 (541 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
I think some preliminary comments on my part

launderess's profile picture
would not be out of place....*LOL*

Sodium metasilicate was, and is still used in soap and even detergent washing powders for its excellent properties.

However that being said had Henkel had access to steady and low cost supplies of STPP and or SHTP am sure like many later soap based laundry powders (mostly found in USA), they would have used those instead. Still some early water softening powders used both phosphates and silicates to get the best of both worlds so to speak.

As for formulating your powder see pages 50-60:

Post# 929507 , Reply# 7   3/29/2017 at 02:20 (540 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
Two soap formulas ilistrated are distinctly different.
Formula II is a formula that would be best suited for skin.
Formula III is a formula that would be best for laundry or household cleaning.
The brine mentioned would be used to "prove" or "purify" the soap. Meaning that spent lye, glycerin, and any un saponified fats would be percipatated out.
This was commonly done years ago to achieve a soap product that performed better for laundry or household cleaning than what one could make at home. The purification helped reduce soap scum, and rinsed easier than soap that had not been purified.

Post# 929535 , Reply# 8   3/29/2017 at 09:12 (540 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
making your own detergent has always been an insight to laundry.....

one question would be, which is cheaper, to make your own, or buy Persil?....

and one other concern, in using Industrial chemicals/detergents in a residential machine not always a good idea.....and only basing that one from working in a laundry once, Commercial machines were fine with this stuff, but residential TLers wore out pumps and seals quickly....

just be cautious....

Post# 929562 , Reply# 9   3/29/2017 at 13:27 (540 days old) by VacuumGuy99 (North Western PA)        

Thanks for the soap making guide laundress,
yogitunes thanks for the heads up, I was going to be using the powder in a wringer so I'll definitely keep an eye out and make sure nothing gets damaged.

Post# 929623 , Reply# 10   3/29/2017 at 21:14 (539 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Commercial Laundry Products

launderess's profile picture
In addition to containing some very powerful and nasty chemicals such as sodium hydroxide (lye), oxalic acid, and so forth also are dosed in minute amounts per pound of washing.

It is not uncommon to see titration levels of 2-4 ounces per 100lbs of washing. Average domestic washer holds only 11-18 pounds of washing; so just run the sums...

As already mentioned nearly all these chemicals come with warnings against use in "home style" washing machines. There are products designed to work in institutional, OPL and other laundries with normally smaller capacity washing machines, but they are labeled as such. Also as per above post these chemicals will do a number on pumps, seals and perhaps other parts of a domestic washing machine.

Most commercial washers do not have pumps, but simply drain valves. Where there are pumps (such as for soft mount machines) one would assume they are built to a different standard than domestic washers.

Other issue with domestic washers versus commercial is the often total lack of programming controls. Many of these chemicals (oxalic acid is one) not only require hot water cycle, but several rinses in hot or very water to remove.

Now back on topic:

As have mentioned before soap even when used in water softened with precipitating
water softeners such as TSP or sodium metasilicate, and a wringer isn't bad as many would think.

This is because unlike automatic top loading washing machines that drain water down through the wash, when using a mangle/wringer (hand or power operated) one lifts laundry out of the mucky water. The mangle or wringer will then squeeze dirt, soils, soaps, etc... and most importantly hard water minerals and scum out of the wash and down back into the tub.

Post# 929661 , Reply# 11   3/30/2017 at 07:45 (539 days old) by vacuumguy99 (North Western PA)        

I was looking at using recipe 13. I was going to try and figure out the amount needed for 5 loads of clothes just to try it and adjust the amount of plurafac surfactant to a useful amount of fels or the like.

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Post# 929837 , Reply# 12   3/31/2017 at 02:13 (538 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
You be trying to substitute the Plurafac D with Fels (or the like) or mix the two?
Are the above numbers..measurements of percentages of each ingredients?

Post# 929914 , Reply# 13   3/31/2017 at 10:17 (538 days old) by vacuumguy99 (North Western PA)        

Ya,I'm using fels in my formula.I'm going to need to get cmc and sodium silicate to make the formula in bulk but I'm going to work with the phosphates,soap,metasilicate and I'll probably work some percarbonate in there. I'll post the recipe(s) that I try and share my results.

Post# 929974 , Reply# 14   3/31/2017 at 17:20 (538 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Thing about commercial laundries

launderess's profile picture
Which is why they use caustic chemicals is their throughput times are much faster.

Be it a tunnel, pocket, or whatever washing machine from start to finish a commercial laundry cycle runs about thirty-one to forty-five minutes tops. This will include perhaps one or two flushes/sluice cycles, pre-washes/soaks, main washes, bleaching, etc....

To remove protein and blood soils, commercial laundries today rely upon formulas not that much different than they did in the last century; moderate to high pH and high to very high water temps. Laundries in France, UK much of Europe and the USA were getting out blood with no more than soap and metasilicate. Bleaching was with perborate or oxalic acid. Ammonia also works in removing blood for the same reason; it is an alkaline gas suspended in water.

With such short cycles commercial laundries today don't normally bother with enzymes. Contact time there is a minimum of 15 to 20 minutes to be effective. Of course they can program or run a longer cycle if needed, but that ties up a washer.

Post# 930018 , Reply# 15   3/31/2017 at 23:42 (537 days old) by VacuumGuy99 (North Western PA)        
Well I've got two...

Formulas figured out, an oxy version and a "regular" version. Per dose my oxy formula is 0.8oz stpp,0.4oz metasilicate,1.25oz soap,0.4oz borax,1.25oz percarbonate. With fels naptha the formula costs 79 cents a dose, with zote it costs 62 cents I'm going to be getting 3-4 loads per dose so it comes out to somewhere between 15.5-27 cents per load. the regular version is the same formula but without the percarbonate and it cost 26 cents per dose which cost between 6.5-8.66 per load which is much more cost effective. The oxy formula uses 3/4 cup per dose and I haven't made a dose of the regular version but I'm assuming it will be about 1/2 cup per dose.

Post# 930060 , Reply# 16   4/1/2017 at 11:38 (537 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
That formula ends up being a 1/2 cup in volume ?

Post# 930085 , Reply# 17   4/1/2017 at 16:01 (537 days old) by vacuumguy99 (North Western PA)        

Yep,per dose of the regular stuff comes out to 1/2 cup. This stuff works just about as well as I've had tide work so it definitely doesn't lack power

Post# 930114 , Reply# 18   4/1/2017 at 19:45 (536 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        
Keep us posted

stan's profile picture
Looked at your formula, and tried to figure it out by percentages (best I could)
It looks like
STPP 20%
Metasilicate 10%
Soap 30%
Borax 10%
Percarbonate 30%
Or there about's ?
Did you want that much percarbonate in the mix?

Post# 931924 , Reply# 19   4/11/2017 at 22:40 (526 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
Is your "Persil" duplicate still working ?
Any adjustments?

Post# 935933 , Reply# 20   5/2/2017 at 23:23 (505 days old) by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture

Post# 939806 , Reply# 21   5/22/2017 at 20:17 (485 days old) by vacuumguy99 (North Western PA)        

Just pulled the post backup and I am happy to report that around the time I made this post I made a 1.5 gallon container of the "oxy" mix and not only do we have a few loads left, It has cleaned our cloths better than tide and my dads skin allergy has cleared up completely,witch was half the reason I took on the project. I'm going to try an make an automatic friendly version and replace the zoat with soap nut extract! I'll report back with my findings asap.
Happy washing all!

Post# 939818 , Reply# 22   5/22/2017 at 23:36 (485 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        

speedqueen's profile picture
A question, is this detergent high or low sudsing?

Post# 939851 , Reply# 23   5/23/2017 at 08:59 (485 days old) by vacuumguy99 (North Western PA)        

With the zoat soap this formula is very high sudsing and is best suited for a wringer washer. Some time towards the end of this week I'm going to experiment with other surfactants to make an auto washer version of this powder.

Post# 939901 , Reply# 24   5/23/2017 at 16:12 (485 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Froth and soap go togehter

launderess's profile picture
Standard rule back in the day when soap was the queen of laundry rooms was to keep a layer between two to three inches deep (give or take) of "lively" suds. This was an indication that conditions were proper for good washing. That is there was enough soap to clean *and* keep much and hard water minerals in suspension.

The froth issue is why soaps had to go when using automatic washing machines and in particular front loading machines.

Not only does excess froth impede cleaning and rinsing but it causes problems with spin cycles as well. Back in the days of doing wash by hand and or using semi-automatics such as wringers or even twin tubs all that froth wasn't such a huge issue. Largely because laundry was lifted out of sudsy water and either put through a mangle or into an extractor.

Post# 939911 , Reply# 25   5/23/2017 at 17:48 (485 days old) by stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
How close was my guess of percentages you used?

Post# 987073 , Reply# 26   3/17/2018 at 23:27 (186 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
Just checking in...

speedqueen's profile picture
How is the automatic version of the powder coming along? Any updates in the existing formula.

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