Thread Number: 71991  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Has there been any solution to spider-arm corrosion?
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Post# 952226   8/8/2017 at 18:30 (1,143 days old) by saz1 (LA)        

Brand new Daewoo front load washer, 3 years in and the spider arm needs to be replaced. A little research reveals that it's been a common problem for a while now. Has anyone come up with a solution?

So many speculations as to what causes it...galvanic corrosion, water PH, detergent, keeping the door closed...any consensus in that regard?

Im getting ready to put in a new spider arm and trying to figure out how I can treat it so that I could get at least 10 years out of it. I am thinking of first etching it with phosphoric acid, then anodizing it, and finally spraying it with a 2 part epoxy primer. What do you guys think? ...or has there been a proven method that works?



Post# 952273 , Reply# 1   8/9/2017 at 05:06 (1,143 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

3 years is criminal. Quality is awful these days.

As far as I know, there was only one machine which had coated spiders, the early 1970s UK Hotpoint 1600.

Thread Number: 70689


Post# 952274 , Reply# 2   8/9/2017 at 05:14 (1,143 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I was going to suggest the epoxy myself.


Post# 952280 , Reply# 3   8/9/2017 at 06:04 (1,143 days old) by saz1 (LA)        

@ Rolls_rapide...
I just don't get how they've been able to get away with it for this long. Can't believe they haven't been sued black and blue!


Post# 952285 , Reply# 4   8/9/2017 at 07:02 (1,143 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Sued

Over what? The machine is long out of its warranty. What would you sue them over? "My cheap washer is broken after being in use for 3 times its warranty length!"

Cheaper machines do use cheaper materials, and more so, thinner materials.
Any even the least reactive metalic material will corrode away over time in such an enviroment.
And other non reactive materials in the needed thicknesses are more expensive and more expensive to produce (aluminium can be injection molded, stainless steel for example can't).


Post# 952318 , Reply# 5   8/9/2017 at 11:39 (1,143 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Broken Spiders On FL washers

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If you have a spider failure in the the first 15-25 years of use it is the users fault, You are using TOO LITTLE detergent, TOO COLD wash water, AND you are not using LCB often enough..............

 

In addition the door should be left ajar, and the dispenser drawer should be left at least 1/2 way open between uses.

 

If a FLW ever develops an odor you are using it improperly and you have a greater risk of serious failures.

 

This advice is based on 40 years of working with over 60,000 customers on their home appliances.

 

John L.


Post# 952325 , Reply# 6   8/9/2017 at 12:23 (1,143 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        

I've owned a front loader for 3 years now and I'm happy to say, the bearings and spider are just fine! (WFW72HEDW)

Here's what I do, at the start of every month, I use a couple of Lysol wipes and wipe the door seals inside and out. Followed by a cleaning of the dispenser drawer in just plain hot water straight from the tap, and I also use a Lysol wipe to clean the interior of the dispenser housing. After that I dry everything down, and run a "Clean Washer" cycle with bleach followed by a drain and spin cycle at max speed to help dry both the tubs out. Once the cycle ends I dry everything out and leave the dispenser and door open a little.

As combo stated, leave the door ajar, as well as the dispenser drawer open. I've NEVER in the past 3 years of owning this machine, wiped the seals out after every load, or wiped out the dispenser cups after a load either.

No mold, No smells, Happy spider.


Post# 952341 , Reply# 7   8/9/2017 at 14:31 (1,143 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
this has always been interesting over the years

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Some spiders fail soon, some don't. Mine is going on 13 yrs old. All I can say is, I've always used warm/hot (very occasionally cold) - powdered detergent, a little fab softener, chlorine bleach in white loads.....left door cracked and dispenser door pulled out when not in use. Most of the time I don't do HUGE loads, but there have been many times that I've filled it to capacity (while not overloading)

About every 3 months I get rubber gloves, coffeemaker hot water and a rag and clean the inside of the boot..but there has never been any mold or smell even when not cleaned because it's allowed to dry out really well between washes.

Years ago, when I first started hearing about this and learning that almost ALL FL washers have aluminum spiders (including mine) I've been waiting for mine to fall apart. But over time, since that has NOT happened - I do wonder if it's the way people do laundry and store their machine.
I don't know, I guess water quality could factor in too. I have hard water where I live.


Post# 952357 , Reply# 8   8/9/2017 at 16:14 (1,142 days old) by saz1 (LA)        

Appreciate your input guys!
So i understand we're exactly where we were 10 years ago... No one knows for certain why they fail, just theories.

Anyone ever tried coating the spider, or treating it? I've seen a couple of posts but they never reported back.


Post# 952402 , Reply# 9   8/9/2017 at 21:07 (1,142 days old) by washerdude (Canada )        
Out of curiosity

Whats the model number for your washer? Daewoo seems to be made by either LG or Samsung in America.

Post# 952500 , Reply# 10   8/10/2017 at 10:57 (1,142 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Broken Spiders On FL Washers

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This issue is NOT a matter of theory, we have extensive experience with this issue and we have seen hundreds of machines and know how they have been used, we have often taken FL washers apart that are more tan a decade old and they have about zero corrosion on the spider.

Keep in mind that every manufacturer tests their machines to simulate more than a decade of use and the spiders NEVER fail when machines are used in a proper intelligent way.

Also keep in mind that machines that get smelly and develop slimy build-ups are not getting clothing clean, no manufacturer would test a washer without using proper washing procedures, doing so would be like testing cars with the wrong fuel, oil antifreeze no air in the tires etc.

PS painting a coating on the spiders may make thing worse, such coatings always develop small cracks etc and will actually keep the metal wet and may make corrosion issues worse. Back when aluminum pumps were still used in washers several manufactures tried coating the bare metal and the pumps still failed from corrosion as the coating usually started to fail pretty quickly.

John L.


Post# 952595 , Reply# 11   8/11/2017 at 12:37 (1,141 days old) by saz1 (LA)        
This issue is NOT a matter of theory

Thanks for your input John L.
Well, mine failed despite doing everything right. It never smelled. Always used powder detergent, never used beach and always kept the door open.


Post# 952600 , Reply# 12   8/11/2017 at 13:39 (1,141 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
best solution i can think of

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the best solution i can think of is have it check by a appliance repair service second have you considered buying a vintage washer that you can use on backup because sadly most tech these days will push you to buy a new machine but i would try option 1 and maybe buy a used washer off craiglist that you can store and hook up as a backup if main washer needs repair here a link incase you went to consider the option of a backup machine but like i said the other washer you would buy off craiglist would be a backup until your main washer is fix than when not needed you can store it in your garage and will have it in case your main washer needs a repair again.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO pierreandreply4's LINK on Los Angeles Craigslist


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Post# 952602 , Reply# 13   8/11/2017 at 13:45 (1,141 days old) by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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John said that using chlorine bleach on a regular basis will contribute to maintaining the integrity of the spider, not reduce it.

My sister was given a Samsung frontloader, 5 years old, by friends who destroyed it by 1) too much cold-water washing, 2) never using the machine's cleaning cycle (which heats to 130F), SEVERE overdosing of liquid fabric softener, and presumably never chlorine bleach. The spider cracked during spin, the drum tore a gash in the front of the tub. I repaired it for $256 in parts. Upon disassembly I found everything to be coated in waxy residue with a STRONG odor of softener and the spider disintegrating into gravel.

A friend has a 1999 Neptune (2nd generation model MAH4000). The drum bearings were going bad at 10+ years and he planned to have me repair it at some point ... then the boot got torn which ensued a leak so the repair got accelerated. I found the spider to be essentially pristine. He *never* used softener and rarely washed in cold water. I don't know his detergent habits in historical detail but it's overdosed if anything ... the machine was being used by ranch hands at the house on the family's farmland.


Post# 952606 , Reply# 14   8/11/2017 at 14:30 (1,141 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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IMHO using chlorine bleach or not is not the key issue here. Otherwise there wouldn't be so many vintage washing machines in Europe. Europeans don't use bleach in their frontloaders. The most important thing to me seems that you wash in a decent way with enough detergent on a high enough temperatures (our boil washes may compensate for not using chlorine bleach).

Post# 952607 , Reply# 15   8/11/2017 at 14:43 (1,141 days old) by saz1 (LA)        
bleach

I hear you. So i am understanding that the reason it failed in just 3 years is because i did not occasionally use bleach. Wow!

Post# 952608 , Reply# 16   8/11/2017 at 14:49 (1,141 days old) by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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Right Louis, of course ... bleach (supposedly) helps in lieu of cold washes (or rather, lack of hot washes) and other factors.


Post# 952636 , Reply# 17   8/11/2017 at 22:27 (1,140 days old) by Kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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As long as no biofilm builds up on the spider and the door is left open to keep moisture down the spider should outlast the rest of the machine.

Hot washes, bleach, and using different detergents all go a long way towards keeping the machine clean inside.

With proper usage the machine will be fine and not develop any off odors too. This is why many people have success with front loaders but others have issues, usage.


Post# 952848 , Reply# 18   8/14/2017 at 07:12 (1,138 days old) by saz1 (LA)        

Im curious...how dos using too little detergent effect the spider arm?

Post# 952851 , Reply# 19   8/14/2017 at 07:50 (1,138 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Detergents

Some UK and European powders DO contain a bleach. They are of the standard 'universal' type of powder. Contains an oxygen-based bleach, which has a sterilising effect. This is the type of detergent that was used in all vintage machines in days of old.

The ones to be wary of are the 'colour', 'liquid' and 'liquitab'. They do not contain bleach whatsoever.

Neither do some of the latest products: Persil Powergems lentils, and Daz 'White & Colours' powder - also sold as 'Daz 65 Years'.

Detergents without any bleach allow biofilms to form (think of plaque on your teeth). The plaque biofilm allows the bacteria to secrete acids which erode the teeth. The same thing happens to the aluminium alloy drum spider. Cool washes with ineffective liquid detergents allow the biofilms to exist and proliferate.

Powders have a slightly abrasive action too - a bit like toothpaste, which helps to cut through the biofilm.

Even Miele, which has the 'Twindos' liquid dispenser (one of which is a LIQUID oxygen bleach!), informs the user to conduct regular maintenance washes with a POWDER detergent to keep the machine clean.


Post# 952852 , Reply# 20   8/14/2017 at 07:55 (1,138 days old) by MrAlex (London, UK)        

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I thought the Miele twin-dos was Hydrogen Peroxide If I'm not mistaken! :)

Post# 952853 , Reply# 21   8/14/2017 at 08:15 (1,138 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

It is, but Miele still recommends powder in the maintenance wash!

Another member here also commented upon that fact.


Post# 952869 , Reply# 22   8/14/2017 at 11:48 (1,138 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        
too little detergent

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Use of insufficient (or poor quality) detergent tends to allow the accumulation of biofilm on the interior surfaces of the machine. The biofilm remains moist accelerating the corrosion of the aluminum. If the aluminum were clean and dry it wouldn't corrode. Seems as though every failed spider seen is caked with grunge.

Hot washes, adequate detergent, light use of fabric softeners and leaving the door open will insure the washer stays clean and dry and will extend the life of the spider. Using different detergents on a frequent basis seems to help with keeping the machine clean also as does using powdered detergents.


Post# 953105 , Reply# 23   8/16/2017 at 15:17 (1,136 days old) by saz1 (LA)        
Makes sense...

Thanks for all your inputs guys! I realize now that it failed prematurely due to not using bleach and running enough wash cycles. I actually though bleach would be harmful to alloy. That's why some aluminum cookware say not to use bleach with their product. Never though that there is a biological process that goes on, not just chemical.

But then! How is one supposed to know all this?! It's not in the instruction manual. My washer's instruction manual actually says nothing about a wash cycle or anything about keeping it clean.
The only way someone can know is the hard way, when it falls apart...or by luck. I did some serious research before buying this machine and i never came across this sea of information that was just sitting here like it's common knowledge. And honestly, any washer that comes with any instruction or function to run cleaning cycles is just to shut people up about the mold smell. They say nothing about any structural issues that could arise from not keeping the washer clean. The average person will be thinking "It's a washer. It's cleaning itself every time i do the laundry".
It's planned obsolescence if you ask me. They don't want the washer lasting forever...they'd be out of business (or not on tycoon status) if they made them like that. Tell me why the spider is not made of stainless steel just like the drum? Really nasty on their part.

I've been looking into this and i think i will go with powder coating. It wont be so porous after the coating so water/detergent wont just get into the tiny pockets and just eat away at it - a backup plan in case i don't stay on top of things with the maintenance in the future. Love to open it up a few years from now and report back.


Post# 953109 , Reply# 24   8/16/2017 at 15:34 (1,136 days old) by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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A friend fosters rescue dogs. Has 23 to 24 in the "pack" ... some are residents, some fosters. That doesn't include resident cats. She washes a LOT of critter bedding, uses a lot of chlorine bleach. She has a 2003 (per the serial number) Kenmore HE3 frontloader. The only repair for the duration (as far as I'm aware) is pump replacement several years ago, done by me. There also was no mold when I checked the tub boot and pump/sump trap.


Post# 957487 , Reply# 25   9/14/2017 at 07:30 (1,107 days old) by saz1 (LA)        
:(

Look at all the hiding places! You guys still think i don't need to treat it?



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Post# 957488 , Reply# 26   9/14/2017 at 07:45 (1,107 days old) by iej (Ireland)        

A good boil wash full of towels and peroxide laden detergent gets done in my Miele W1 once a week. No way any bugs or fabric softener gunge survive that.

Post# 957620 , Reply# 27   9/15/2017 at 05:32 (1,106 days old) by saz1 (LA)        
Too little detergent

combo52 says too little detergent will cause the spider arm to fail.... How, exactly?
I understand from here that soap left to sit on the spider arm is not good. So logically, the less soap there is, the better...no? How is more soap better?


Post# 957622 , Reply# 28   9/15/2017 at 05:50 (1,106 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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It's not soap that is left behind on the spider but dirt and calcium build up. If you don't use enough detergent, the dirt in the wash water doesn't get dissolved well enough, so it stays behind. So use enough detergent and wash on high enough temperatures and the risk of spider problems will be smaller.

Post# 996748 , Reply# 29   6/10/2018 at 14:01 (838 days old) by russinvb (Virginia Beach)        
Looking for spider for 9 year old Miele W4800

Does anyone know of a reliable source for Miele parts?

I'm looking for a new spider for 9 year old Miele W4800.

Not much left of the old one...


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Post# 996771 , Reply# 30   6/10/2018 at 18:20 (837 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        
Open a new thread

Open a new thread, hijacking other threads isn't well received around here.

But to make matters quick: Google, or Miele, or a second W48xx.


Post# 1057183 , Reply# 31   1/10/2020 at 20:38 (258 days old) by rfehr613 (Baltimore)        
Spider corrosion

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but Im currently looking to replace my Samsung washer due to an internal water leak and drum imbalance (suspected spider arm corrosion).

I was reading through all the responses here, and I did not see anyone mention the fact that these spider arms and drums are made from dissimilar metals. As an engineer who regularly designs and inspects bridges and other transportation structures, I'm quite familiar with the corrosion issues due to dissimilar metals - especially steel and aluminum. The electric potential of the dissimilar metals is the primary driving force for the corrosion issue with these washers. Frankly, I was astonished to learn that spider arms are regularly made from aluminum and zinc. That means they are literally designed to fail.

Two dissimilar metals in contact with each other will corrode automatically with absolutely no outside influence from water temp, soap, bleach, etc. The corrosion is only exacerbated by perpetually "moist" conditions, chlorides (in water and detergents), and many of the other reasons mentioned by everyone else. But to be clear, the spider arm will corrode regardless, so long as both metals are touching each other with no buffer material between them at mating surfaces.

It's absolutely irresponsible and dishonest for these manufacturers to supply parts that initiate galvanic corrosion by design, unless they were easily replaceable parts like say an anode rod in a water heater. The only potential reason I could see for the manufacturers providing these aluminum and zinc spider arms is so that the drum doesn't rust, but they could just as easily design the drum & spider assembly with a built-in active corrosion protection system that feeds off the existing electrical power supply. If they did that, neither drum nor spider arm would rust for the life of the unit. The assemblies should either be steel drum & steel spider arm or aluminum drum & aluminum spider arm, plain and simple.


Post# 1057189 , Reply# 32   1/10/2020 at 21:14 (258 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Corrosion between SS and Aluminum- Zinc

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Interestingly the corrosion and failures never occur where the two different metals actually touch. For the most part I think the washer manufactures seem to know what they are doing.

 

Yes there are a number of examples of washers having too thin a spider and failures were much more common on these machines.

 

FD FL small door models 1998-2011

Early WP Duet Sport models

Miele 27" full sized washers

Most Samsung 24&27" wide machines.

 

But as I mentioned before we have never seen a spider failure on a FL washer where LCB,  Lots of decent detergent and hot water is used on a regular basis.

 

They also never seem to fail when the washers are used in a commercial setting where lots of different people are using them with lots of different laundry additives, temperatures and bleach etc.

 

John L.


Post# 1057203 , Reply# 33   1/11/2020 at 00:54 (258 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Most of the vids and photos Ive seen of repair demos on various front loaders, all show a ground lead attached to the main bearing.
Wouldnt grounding the spider/shaft prevent at least the electrolytic corrosion?


Post# 1057207 , Reply# 34   1/11/2020 at 01:02 (258 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

I've torn apart and replaced bearings in several Duets and after years of use they show no damage to the spider.   But I do use hot water and such, can't recall the last wash I did in cold.  My gut feeling is it's a combination of cold water, too much detergent and not cleaning the machine that leads to failure.


Post# 1057227 , Reply# 35   1/11/2020 at 07:14 (258 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I also wonder

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could it be hard water vs soft water too? I agree that LCB OR very hot water/good detergents seem to minimize it. Over the years on Youtube of people taking apart machines showing the spider corrosion - the outer tub is always caked in brown sludge.....Like the machine was overloaded, too much or too little of something was used and it just congealed into a solid funk on the outer drum. It's like this in ALL of the videos of seen of people tearing their machine apart because of spider corrosion.

I had always heard the dissimilar metals would eventually cause corrosion......but that has NOT happened with many machines, including my Duet (almost 15 years old)


Post# 1057230 , Reply# 36   1/11/2020 at 07:52 (258 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
I Have Never Seen A Washer harmed By Too Much Detergent

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I think it would be almost impossible to use too much,

 

and if it did build up from one load it would just rinse away on the next load.

 

John L.


Post# 1057234 , Reply# 37   1/11/2020 at 08:14 (258 days old) by henene4 (Germany)        

Once again:

For it to be galvanic corrosion there has to be a potential difference.

That can not ocour if the metal in question is conductivley connected.

And if you ask me, washer tub and spider are very much connected.


Post# 1057251 , Reply# 38   1/11/2020 at 11:28 (258 days old) by rfehr613 (Baltimore)        

There is a difference in electrical potential between steel and aluminum or steel and zinc. The electrical potential of Iron (steel, aka, carbon steel = carbon & iron) is -0.44V, zinc is -0.76V, and Aluminum is -1.67V (www.engineeringtoolbox.co...). This is precisely why many transportation structures, such as light poles, sign structures, CMP, etc. are hot-dip galvanized...it is a sacrificial layer that will corrode before the steel can corrode. Furthermore, corrosion initiation does not necessarily occur at the interface between two metals, which is why you might not see corrosion at the connection of the spider arm to drum.

As far as how quickly the corrosion occurs, that is a function of the quantity of anode material, connection design, and certainly exposure conditions. I wasn't saying that an aluminum or zinc spider arm is guaranteed to fail in XX years, it may last for decades. I was simply saying it will begin corroding immediately from the second it's connected to a steel drum and will continue to do so unless a voltage exceeding the voltage potential of both metals is passed through the materials.

On that note, a grounding wire is not the same as active galvanic corrosion protection. A ground wire simply takes out any stray currents to a safe place (ground); whereas active galvanic protection systems pass a low-voltage current through the system to inhibit corrosion. Its entirely possible that higher-end and/or commercial washers use this type of active galvanic corrosion protection.

I know next to nothing about washers, so I'm not trying to make any claims about real-world experiences. I'm sure those of you who have torn apart hundreds or thousands of these things know how the design holds up in real usage conditions better than anyone else. I just know a lot about corrosion of dissimilar metals, and I didn't see anyone mention that as an explanation of the observed corrosion so I thought I'd bring it up. So I was only saying that it's a shock that they would design these spider arm using dissimilar metals. My guess is that the spider arms are purposely designed as a sacrificial anode to prevent corrosion of the drum and that they're designed (in theory) to provide enough sacrificial material to provide "full service life" (whatever that may be), but the designers failed to accurately account for environmental and usage conditions so many of these systems fail prematurely. There's also the argument that they're designed this way because of planned obsolescence, but that is basically just a conspiracy theory that would be very difficult to prove.


Post# 1057253 , Reply# 39   1/11/2020 at 12:23 (258 days old) by tomdawg (Des moines)        
what is the neptune spider made of?

is it aluminum? curious, because i have never seen a neptune spider corrode much.
I have a neptune currently running at 21 years old and never had an issue.

I have a hard time believing too little detergent, but again, I can see John's argument of why- being in the field of repairing them with all sorts of style of washing.

my observations.
my Grandmother is a big user of hot water, lots of detergent, bleach and fabric softener.. her washer died in 5 years.

my mom has a neptune and hers is still going strong 15 years- she uses hot water, little to no bleach, and no fabric softener- she uses little detergent. her bearings went out at 12 years. I repaired it and there was no gunk. whatsoever. the spider was in perfect condition. however, i made sure she maintained her machine using washer cleaner and or bleach to keep it clean.


Post# 1057257 , Reply# 40   1/11/2020 at 12:55 (258 days old) by rfehr613 (Baltimore)        

As far as galvanic corrosion is concerned, outside factors aside, the life of the anode will depend on the mass of material and the surface area between mating materials. If one manufacturer uses thin stamped aluminum spiders, it will most definitely have a considerably shorter life than one designed from substantially thicker cast aluminum or aluminum plate. Similarly, a spider arm with small connection arms that mate with the drum on areas not much bigger than the bolt head will likely fail somewhere in the arm in a shorter period than a comparable spider arm with beefier arms and larger mating surfaces.

So maybe there are manufacturers who conservatively design their arms to account for this? Hopefully so. What I've seen of pictures of Samsung spider arms online leans much more towards the thinner stamped aluminum design. Then again, our Samsung washer is presumed to be about 13 years old (only owned house for 5 years, but whole home was rehabbed in 2007), and has only been out of balance for the last year or less. But when it comes to corrosion, there are sooooo many factors involved. Its nearly impossible to predict service life of metals subject to corrosion sometimes.

Case in point, I just inspected a 2-cell aluminum corrugated structural plate pipe-arch culvert built around 1990 that is riddled with holes from corrosion; there's a pipe arch 30ft up the road that is made from the exact same corrugated aluminum plate from the same manufacturer and it is under the same amount of fill on the same roadway, and it has zero measurable corrosion. Another example is with epoxy-coated rebar in bridge decks. My one professor I had at Virginia Tech conducted decades of research on ECR, and he and others in the industry have been unable to accurately predict or consistently replicate in the lab the accelerated corrosion issues that are unique to ECR. They know it's due to the porosity of epoxy coatings exposed to chlorides creating HCl acid that becomes trapped in the epoxy coating and destroys the metal very very fast, but they still could not consistently replicate this in testing. Despite that, there have been a number of deck collapses in Virginia and other states that are attributed to the use of ECR, so VDOT has banned its use on state projects.

Point is, a lot of times it's very very difficult to predict the speed of corrosion or even identify the individual causes of corrosion.


Post# 1057275 , Reply# 41   1/11/2020 at 16:36 (257 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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common sense would tell anyone.....if its a matter of something like the two metals together....

then every single machine made would have the same issues.....

I have several Neptunes....never seen or even heard of a corrosion issue with the spiders....still wonder too, why dont mine have bearing/seal failures?

I also have a few FD round door units....I have heard of spider issues....but have to wonder, why dont mine have those issues?...

is it the environmental conditions?...water hardness?....detergent/bleach/softener?...and yet one factor that no one wants to consider, could it be operator error?


Post# 1057463 , Reply# 42   1/13/2020 at 12:17 (256 days old) by rfehr613 (Baltimore)        

Assuming every machine is made with two dissimilar metals in contact, then all washers DO have the issue, technically. It's not pseudoscience; just open literally any materials textbook you can get your hands on and you'll see. As for the longevity of the anode and whether or not it ends up being the cause of failure at some point during the life of the washer, that's very much a function of numerous different things as I detailed in my last post. It may well take 50+ years for the spider arm to corrode to the point that it compromises strength in a given washer, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS actively corroding the entire time. Materials don't corrode at a fixed rate, there are so many other factors involved, surely including user error too (e.g., not cleaning out a clogged filter).

This is also assuming all these washers do in fact have dissimilar metals in contact with each other and have no galvanic protection system. I'm no appliance repairman, so I haven't been inside a ton of washers to know for sure. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if some manufacturers use a buffer material in between the spider arm and drum and/or employ active galvanic protection systems to avoid this issue. However, probably the most economical solution is just to design the spider arm to be thicker to account for material loss from the galvanic corrosion, and that is something I've seen evidence of simply by researching this topic online.


Post# 1057512 , Reply# 43   1/13/2020 at 21:19 (255 days old) by bradfordwhite (space coast)        

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6600+ views? Can it be true?

Please save the spiders in your washer. Leave the door and detergent drawer open when not in use so your spider can dry out and breath.

Don't over fill. Don't use so much detergent that there is excess sudsing.

It's pretty simple and your washer won't weave a nasty web of disappointment.


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Post# 1057538 , Reply# 44   1/14/2020 at 07:46 (255 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Spider Corrosion

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Too little detergent is a major reason for the gunk buildup including fabric softener  and corrosion, plenty of detergent does not allow FS and gunk to buildup, it is almost impossible to use so much detergent as to cause harm to any washers components unless suds are overflowing inside the cabinet.

 

John L.


Post# 1057551 , Reply# 45   1/14/2020 at 10:07 (255 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
My Samsung

which is new has a slef clean cycle, and tells you when to use it, after about 40 loads. It is a 3 hour cycle. I let it go for a half hour after the door feels hot, about 1.5 to 2 hours. Then I run a rinse cycle. The water draining from the clean cycle is grey. Bleach does not corrode cast aluminum. We'll see about durability. So far I like the machine.

Post# 1057554 , Reply# 46   1/14/2020 at 10:53 (255 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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I`m with John, there is no way using too much detergent could lead to a build up that harms the washer. Too little detergent on the other hand can lead to a build up of FS, body oils and so on which contributes to a moist environment and thus accelerates spider corrosion.
I think Whirlpool`s advice to use little and only low sudsing detergent to prevent the growth of mold only indicates a poor washer design where dirt laden suds can reach parts of the suds container where rinse water doesn`t get to.
Just think of a poorly designed plastic outer tub which is reinforced with nicks and crannies on the inside.
As long as rinse water can reach all parts there can not be a build up from too much detergent or high sudsing IMO.


Post# 1057558 , Reply# 47   1/14/2020 at 13:09 (255 days old) by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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Water pretty much sprays/spatters all around in the outer tub during spin extraction, yes?


Post# 1057566 , Reply# 48   1/14/2020 at 14:20 (255 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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I don`t think that much water sprays the back panel of a suds container in a modern FL where the rinse spins either accelerate very slowly or in several little bursts to prevent suds locks.
If it would get sprayed you`d also see water running down the door glass at the start of a spin, but there are very few if any FLs that still do this these days.
Maybe there are still a few commercial ones but that`s not the point.

I could also imagine that some spiders have better scooping and splashing action by design than others to keep themselves clean even in the lowest water levels.
But there is no way to keep a back panel clean if it`s strutted on the inside. At least not if the suds level is higher than the rinse water level which is a common occurrence.


Post# 1057574 , Reply# 49   1/14/2020 at 15:22 (254 days old) by potatochips (Nova Scotia)        

Id be very interested to see how water condition plays in to the corrosion. Jamming untreated or unsoftened water in any metalic environment is a great way to cause corrosion.

 

Dissimilar metals is a great way to cause corrosion. Its happened, and it will happen. Connect carbon steel piping to stainless without a proper anode, grounder, or gasket and see how long the pipe holds up. Perhaps the rate between the tubs and spiders is little due to the compatibility of metals, or maybe they add some sort of non conductive gasket/buffer.

 

What I believe is happening here is either the calcium and magnesium from the supply water, or the goo from the dirt in the wash water, or fabric softener (which has very similar properties to a biofilm/slime), or all three, can build up on the spider and create the perfect condition for corrosion. A deposit of sludge, calcium, or magnesium will trap a hyperactive layer of water between it and the metal will corrode faster. Even faster when hot water is used. The trapped water between the deposit and spider can start to separate and concentrate, causing an increase in pH, which in turn causes the corrosion. You can speed this corrosion up even faster by using hot water as the heat causes the trapped water to evaporate through the sludge, leaving behind an even more concentrated form. This is called underdeposit corrosion in industrial water treatment. This is what I think the main cause of this issue is. It is also called caustic gouging.


Post# 1059419 , Reply# 50   2/2/2020 at 05:27 (236 days old) by iej (Ireland)        

Why are they aluminium anyway? Doesnt seem like it would be difficult, especially for companies like a Miele, who are producing almost money no object machines, to just use quality stainless steel spiders instead.

Post# 1059420 , Reply# 51   2/2/2020 at 05:51 (236 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, Theres a Lady on Stage)        

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Thought Miele washers had cast iron spiders?

Am pretty sure my W1070 has cast iron and not aluminum, but could be wrong.


Post# 1059431 , Reply# 52   2/2/2020 at 08:54 (236 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

I have seen some Miele spiders that were either cast iron or welded steel.I just junked a very grubby Midea GE from 2011 and it's bare cast aluminum spider was in almost perfect shape...(went into spares stash) So many varibles involved in the spider corrosion problem... :)

Post# 1059437 , Reply# 53   2/2/2020 at 10:38 (236 days old) by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Spider Corrosion

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Hi Brendan, What did the washer look like overall, do you have any idea how it was used and why there was so little spider corrosion?

 

About 10 years ago we sold a FD small door commercial version of the popular FD FL washer that was faros for broken spiders and seal problems.

 

Well they beat the machine to death doing a minimum of ten loads a day 7 days a week [ I could not begin to guess how many gallons of bleach was poured in that machine, I know they buy 20 gallons at a time ]. and the cabinet was failing and coming apart at the punch welds. We retired it when the motor board failed for at least the 2nd time. When we pulled it out I took it apart and the spider was about perfect, it is now in another FD washer somewhere that we rebuilt.

 

John 


Post# 1059439 , Reply# 54   2/2/2020 at 11:03 (236 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Corrosion

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John as an engineer repaire can you gauge if the iron content quality of the water (or well water) links into any of this excess corrosion ?? and as well as factoring in cold wash with not enough detergents etc ?

Ive only ever seen one destroyed rotting spider and that was last year, the lads picked up a Hoover Newave washer from the early 90`s, it had been used in an extremely hard water area, the lady used Persil non bio powder lots of hot washes, the heater had hardly any scale but the spider had just crumbled after drying out from months of no use...this was the result !!


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Post# 1059445 , Reply# 55   2/2/2020 at 12:40 (236 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
reply to combo52...

Do not know the usage of the junked GE-when I got it smelled bad!,front scuffed,back of drum badly scratched.Was going to fix it(broken door latch)but better cosmetic condition machines were obtained and fixed..Looked like "medium hours"run time judging by belt condition and dust buildup and not real scuzzy inside despite the odor...




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