Thread Number: 72947  /  Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
Still getting used to LED lights
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Post# 963645   10/21/2017 at 10:17 (516 days old) by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

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I'm slowly getting used to the LED streetlights in my area. There are a couple of sodium vapor yard lights left, but the PoCO is replacing them all with LED fixtures when the bulbs go out. My neighbor across the street once had a mercury vapor fixture, it got replaced with a sodium vapor from the PoCO, and last year an LED. I noticed the LED doesn't light up my bedroom like the sodium did, I miss that. The mercury vapor fixture is still on the post.

I miss the warmth that the sodium had, plus they seemed to light better. The LEDs - sometimes feel like football stadium lights, or that nighttime light that TV shows have for dramatic effect - it feels cold and stark sometimes.

Also noticed a lot of our highway cobra fixtures replaced with LED, all the major ones, but the ones in areas outside of town are still sodium - for now.

I miss seeing the older mercury cobra fixtures in my area, they have all disappeared mostly except for some downtown. The high school parking lot has a HUGE square sodium vapor that still works last I saw.

Also like the cylindrical fixtures with hat on top - one old bank parking lot downtown has them, one subdivision has them, and a few houses in my area have them for yard lights.

Remember one old shopping center downtown had the four mercury vapor cobras on a four arm mount on a pole. All since been replaced with single or quad units.

Post# 963646 , Reply# 1   10/21/2017 at 10:22 (516 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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I think the LED from my street light across the street goes right into my room! In fact I often think (and my daughter even sometimes asks if) that it's Daylight...

(Gotta get back to the 'Streetlights' thread, as our street lighting has changed once again & in an even shorter time to those LED's...)

-- Dave

Post# 963649 , Reply# 2   10/21/2017 at 10:38 (516 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
light pollution and ineffective lighting.

in my area seems LED lights are more often installed as "bling"on buildings instead for effective lighting-many have that nasty blue tinged ~6500k color temp and glare brightly,many not on a control and blazing away uselessly in the daytime :)Lamposts downtown had sodium bulbs in them and gave a pleasant.effective glow-about a year ago,LED retrofit bulbs were installed in place of the sodium and lighting nowhere near as effective lighting as the sodium...I like LEDs properly used though,and my local Runnings store,built in 2015, has good,effective LED lighting installed.I use quite a few LEDs at home and at the shop in application where they do good.

Post# 963651 , Reply# 3   10/21/2017 at 10:47 (516 days old) by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

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Many of the stores here have replaced their sodium wall pack fixtures with LED units, as well as the canopy lighting at fuel stations now LED. Even a lot of signage now uses LED back lighting instead of florescent.

The new house next door to me has LED fixtures, the outside ones have a nice warm tone to them. The ones I see inside the windows at night have a cold bluish glow that I would find annoying.

Post# 963664 , Reply# 4   10/21/2017 at 12:23 (516 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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Many of our traffic lights have been replaced with LED's but the problem is during a snowstorm, the LED's do not give off heat to melt the snow, rendering them dangerous and essentially useless.

Post# 963676 , Reply# 5   10/21/2017 at 14:07 (516 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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Tim, what is the design of the LED lights that snow accumulation is an issue on? Here in MN we sometimes get snow (although yours is possibly more wet and clingy then ours) and I have never seen a problem.

Most of the LED street and parking lot lights here have the LED's as a flat array underneath the lamp so accumulation isn't a problem.

The big benefit that will someday come with LED lighting is when they start to use motion sensors to switch them off when they aren't needed. Think of all the parking areas we light at night, all night that could be dark until a car drives in there! Something vapor discharge lights could never do since they don't start fast.

Post# 963687 , Reply# 6   10/21/2017 at 15:37 (516 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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Phil, its the regular traffic lights that have the problem with it sticking to the red, yellow, green. Normally snow comes with wind and being so close to the Atlantic, it is more wet, sticky and like shoveling cement.

Post# 963720 , Reply# 7   10/21/2017 at 19:00 (516 days old) by GusHerb (Chicago/NWI)        

I don't like the new LED street lights the PoCo put in last year. It's harder to see as they only light a tiny section directly below, and the bright white is unsettling. They could've at least gone for warm white. The lights in the park are PoCo owned and they replaced all but the one that dimly shines on my bedroom window at night.
We have a lot of LED stop lights too and I have seen the snow get stuck over them before as well.

Post# 963731 , Reply# 8   10/21/2017 at 20:06 (516 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

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The sodium vapor street light in our cul-de-sac was replaced this past year with a much brighter LED lamp.

It seems to cast more shadows, as well as reaching farther than the old light. That much is appreciated as it reduces the possibility of crime.

However, the color rendition must be very low. I refer to such light as "gray light", because everything seems so lifeless under it.

I suspect the reason is that such white light with poor color rendition is the cheapest and most energy efficient way to produce illumination. At least that was my observation with the earliest LED bulbs: for the same wattage the "daylight" bulbs produced more lumens than the "warm white" bulbs. Or, more precisely, for the same lumens the daylight bulbs consumed fewer watts than the warm white bulbs. For a while I purchased daylight bulbs instead of warm white ones, until I realized the colder light was making it more difficult to get to sleep at night.

In the meantime, companies like FEIT apparently figured out how to make LED lamps of any color temp with great color rendition, while still being energy efficient. These are mostly what I buy these days, and at Costco they are often heavily discounted with instant rebates from the local power company.

When I moved in here, initially I didn't like the yellow light of the sodium vapor light. But as time went on, I got used to it. I even got yellowish LED lamps for the porch and coach lights out front to blend in with it. Now those are a great contrast to the gray light from the new street lamp. Oh well, can't have everything. Maybe I'll write a letter to the city asking for the next replacement lamp to have a warmer tone as well as better color rendition. Not that it will do anything.

Post# 963814 , Reply# 9   10/22/2017 at 02:55 (515 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The lot lights at work were replaced with LED-used to be Westinghouse "Silverliners"250W,400W mercury and newer GE 250W,400W mercury.So far after 4 yrs the LEDS AEL Electric 215W are doing fine.The fluorescent bulbs in the indoor lights are now LED tube type bulbs.I have some of the old Silverliners that used to be at the station.One had a blown ballast-replaced it with a 400W HPS S51 ballast I had laying around.The others still work-ballasts over 50yrs old!! and have some of the spare mercury bulbs that used to be here-they were going to be tossed if I didn't save them.On Greenville BVD there is a section lit with LED cobrahead and another lit with HPS-Like the H:PS better-its amber light cuts thru fog,rain,icy rain,what little snow we get better than LED.HPS and Ceramic Metal Halide still have BETTER lumens per watt that LED.I do have LED portable lights and some LED light bulbs-they do work just fine.I also have some CMH lights that I like better than LED.The ceramic metal halide color rendition is better than LED.

Post# 963824 , Reply# 10   10/22/2017 at 06:21 (515 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

I think there's some confusion with the way the new fixtures disperse the light, color rendition and temperature.

I think that the new lamp post fixtures are designed to disperse the light in a new pattern that tends to keep the light from polluting the sky and directs it much more to the streets than to the sidewalks in an effort to prevent folks who complain about excess light in their bedrooms from 'disabling' the lights or failing to call when a bulb finally burns out. If we put an older bulb in such fixture, we'd see the same light distribution, only in a different color temp and color rendition. It's just a coincidence that such new fixtures are being deployed with LEDs.

There are certainly bulbs on the expensive side of the spectrum that can be dimmed and can be set to any of millions of colors, including very bright blueish light, a yellowish light that simulates "sodium" bulbs, a greenish light that you could swear was the old mercury bulbs, the standard "incandescent" bulb etc. It's great fun to play with, but I doubt that towns/cities will install those for street lighting. People who are curious can google, one of the bulbs is Philips Hue. There are other brands and protocols available.

I'm also old enough to remember when people started complaining about all the mercury bulbs being replaced by sodium bulbs and how they hated the yellow it cast everywhere etc. You just can't please everyone, and people tend to prefer the stuff they they are accustomed to.

On yet another hand, I, for one, will not miss the loooooong time it took for mercury lamps to cool down enough so they could be restarted when the power went out or they were accidentally switched off and then on. The sodium lamps didn't take that long, but still took a long time.

I, for one, am pretty happy with the LED lights and I echo Phil in welcoming lights that work on demand.

Post# 964327 , Reply# 11   10/26/2017 at 00:25 (511 days old) by sudsmaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

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Oh, LED lights are fine with me.

The rub is what KIND of LED.

I'm not a big fan of low CRI LED's, which is what the new streetlights here seem to be.

Also they cast light everywhere. If it weren't for the big magnolia tree in my front yard, I'd be complaining about the new light streaming into the living room. As it is, the bedrooms here face away from the street, so there isn't a problem with that. Not sure what my neighbors, some of whom have bedrooms facing the street, think about the new light.

The old streetlight was high pressure sodium. I did not like the light when I first moved here, but slowly it grew on me, especially when I got yellowish LED (vintage looking, 2300K) lights for the porch and lamp post. Now they sort of look out of place in the gray light. Even worse are the low pressure sodium lights, which blanket the San Jose area - or at least they used to. I remember seeing them light up Market Street in SF in the 70's. Awful. Made it look like a war zone.

Post# 964330 , Reply# 12   10/26/2017 at 00:54 (511 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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Mercury-to-Sodium: I think I remember that sort of thing, down to a neighbor, whose house I was at, and this was kitty-corner, at the corner of the street I grew up on, before she, then later, me, grew up & moved out, saying "there was a new street light out there", but I vividly remember seeing the white-glow of a mercury, coming off of a suspended-wire-globe, than her to have quoted her saying that to the now-familiar sodium cobra-head, running off of the antiquated wooden pole, that even there, houses those new LED's, once unique to the side of town that I now live in--They start in refined NORTH Oak Park, before working back to EIGHT MILE...

-- Dave

Post# 964340 , Reply# 13   10/26/2017 at 06:14 (511 days old) by Rolls_rapide (0)        

Our sodium streetlights with their distinctive orange glow (which fired in every direction), have been replaced by these modern low-energy LED lamps.

These new LED lamps fire their pale white light downwards, creating pools of light around the lamp standard, but not much beyond. The advantage now is that the stars and Aurora Borealis can be seen with far better clarity. I like to look at the night sky.

Post# 964669 , Reply# 14   10/28/2017 at 11:26 (509 days old) by cornutt (Huntsville, AL USA)        

A lot of places are converting their fixtures to "full cutoff" as they go to LED lighting, which as an amateur astronomer I appreciate. But yeah, sometimes they don't get the right diffusers on them, and then you get the alternating light and dark areas that produce the strobe effect as you drive down the road. And I've seen some that didn't have any diffusers at all -- the lamp is a very bright point source that makes you see spots if it gets into your field of vision.

Post# 964761 , Reply# 15   10/28/2017 at 23:20 (508 days old) by GusHerb (Chicago/NWI)        

Driving down I-80 in Illinois at night the other day I saw they replaced many of the HPS lights with LED. Unlike the LED's my utility company has been using, those ones had a much wider light pattern and they did an excellent job lighting up the road. But again they're stark white and everything looks sterile now, which I don't like.

Post# 964764 , Reply# 16   10/28/2017 at 23:57 (508 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The AEL LED "streetlights" here at work- we call them "lot lights" give a warm color-NOT the cold blue-white typical LED streetlights give.The AEL warm white LED is much better-ALL LED streetlights could benefit from the diffusers used on older HID streetlights-as the LED lights now are-they are glare bombs!

Post# 970201 , Reply# 17   11/27/2017 at 05:34 (479 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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A very elderly lady we have across the street in our neighborhood replaced her bulb-operated front porch light with an LED-lit one that I find very attractive...

It even goes on by itself... I wish I could replace the one we have and our side door (which she also has like we do, but left the orig. light) that accidentally gets turned on because someone can't only turn on one switch when they go to the basement (the one next to the basement light switch would obviously be for the light outside the door, which I often see happen at the neighbors' house right across the street from us...

-- Dave

Post# 970268 , Reply# 18   11/27/2017 at 14:00 (479 days old) by PhilR (Quebec Canada)        

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Last summer, they replaced all the light poles on my street and while I have to say I liked the style of the old light poles, I don't care much for sodium lights. The new ones have bright LED and I like them. I'm curious to see how long they'll last as I have seen some fairly new ones go bad and flashing like a stroboscope elsewhere and that's quite disturbing...

The 7 first pictures show the old sodium street lights and the others show the new light poles with LED lights.

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Post# 975993 , Reply# 19   12/29/2017 at 12:02 (447 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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The Coolers and Freezers at work---just when I thought it was safe have 'em now! All over the ceilings trying to give off the light of what used to be by the door, one (now UNUSED) incandescent bulb...

The walls of them also changed to that $%#@*tty corrugated metal--when just plain, flat stainless steel was the standard...

Ditto for the couple of meat rooms at another Kroger (the one by my dad's I occasionally shop at) I was "band saw" stalking around--more on that in the Secret Rooms thread... (Well, one had room aprons, and jackets & other wearable-gear having on hooks, I was staring dead at, through windows (that my store just may have in the other rooms and annexes in the actual room I had been in and out of a couple times that I didn't stay in long enough to get any sort of view of, as they were off to the side) just for a few people (the workers and my fellow-customers and shoppers) around me, STARING DEAD at ME, thinking I was "needing to be put-away somewhere" WEIRD!!!!)...

-- Dave

Post# 975996 , Reply# 20   12/29/2017 at 12:47 (447 days old) by joeekaitis (Rialto, California, USA)        
Our street was switched to LEDs . . .

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 . . . with a very narrow beam, almost as if it's been aimed and focused to light only the street from curb to curb but no more.  The previous mercury vapor, then sodium vapor streetlights on the pole across the street from us spilled light all the way up the driveway.  Now the front yards, with the exception of those bathed in a homeowner-installed security light, are dark shores flanking a river of light.

Post# 1026487 , Reply# 21   3/7/2019 at 12:28 by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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Switched from my incandescents that Big Brother is Outlawing to these LED's in the bathroom, said toe the most-used lighting in the house...

So, then, I've traded what I find frequently burning out to a light that I gotta used to the glow of...

Seems as though even the turning the bulbs on is quite different in the way that the light is coming out...

And although the disagreeable hue is still trying to be comparable to those old school incandescents, I somehow still see and feel a slight contrast...

-- Dave

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Post# 1026491 , Reply# 22   3/7/2019 at 13:05 by oliger (Indianapolis, Indiana)        

I have a big mercury light on the side of my garage. Never knew it was regulated or a rare find. It still works. No idea how old the bulb is, but the fixture is probably at least from the 50's.

Post# 1026538 , Reply# 23   3/7/2019 at 22:17 by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

I have a mercury on the side of my house-illuminating the back yard:1978 Stonco wallpak running 100w bulb-really nice illumination and color.

Post# 1026579 , Reply# 24   3/8/2019 at 12:51 by Superocd (PNW)        
I hate LED

The LED bulbs for light fixtures are OK, but for things like street lamps and especially headlights on cars, they're horrible. Even though I can't stand the effect of really bright white spots where the LED poles are (and dark areas in between) instead of the softer, more even lighting scheme of the older street lamps, I can understand the trend of ripping out the older style bulbs on the street lamps and replacing them with LED--it saves energy which should save taxpayers some money, since the electric bill has to be paid for all those streetlamps--but car headlamps? Why? Those and the xenon headlamps are way too bright to be safe and I am not sure why or how they are even legal and how they managed to pass highway safety standards because they are so blinding to oncoming drivers. LED lightbars on police cars, ambulances, fire trucks, tow trucks and so on are too bright to be safe too.

I almost want to paint "sorry for blinding you" on the side of mine and my wife's vehicles because both of our cars have these stupid headlights, since it is almost impossible to buy a newer vehicle without them. I wouldn't mind if there was a massive recall on bright headlamps, because I think I would be first in line to get them taken off my vehicle. It's not like cars are drawing current from the electric grid to run the headlights. I don't buy the excuse that a car's electrical system cannot support older-style headlamps, because cars have done it pretty well for, I dunno, the past 100 years, so just why exactly are we putting super bright bulbs in the headlights?

Post# 1026602 , Reply# 25   3/8/2019 at 22:12 by fan-of-fans (Florida)        
LED street lights

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I haven't seen any here where they just change only the bulb to LED, they change the fixture to those cheap flat looking things. They look so cheap compared to the old cobra fixtures.

They do this mostly on the highway, they replaced a few mile stretch with all LED fixtures a couple of years ago. And recently I've seen a few LEDs pop up in the midst of the sections lit with HPS fixtures, so I guess as the bulbs go out they've started replacing those with LED too.

They do light up the road better.

But as someone who likes vintage stuff, as I'm sure all of us do. I HATE how LED is replacing all other technologies as if it's the end all be all.
I also am sure that there will come a time where one won't even be able to buy halogen, fluorescent, mercury vapor, metal halide, high pressure sodium or any other lighting technology but just LEDs.

It's almost like say, they came up with some replacement for water and suddenly none of us could use our washing machines anymore because we couldn't get water anymore. I know that's not possible, but that's the only analogy I can think of.

At least the streetlights seem to be working ok, but the fixtures on display at Home Depot surely do not give the impression they are built to last. Since many of them have started flashing on and off. Yet everyone touts how long they are supposed to last. Hmm, ok, maybe.

Post# 1026604 , Reply# 26   3/8/2019 at 22:24 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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How many folks are reading from & posting to using a phone, tablet, or computer that has a screen lit with LED technology?

Post# 1026605 , Reply# 27   3/8/2019 at 22:36 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor)        

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LED traffic lights wont work in a snowstorm as they wont melt the snow off them so nobody knows who has the right of way.

Post# 1026606 , Reply# 28   3/8/2019 at 22:37 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Glenn, it's at times like this that I would have loved if we could award someone a thousand "likes" instead of just one.

The irony is palpable. I remember that up to the early 90's or so, only people in universities and rich companies could even pay for the internet, and even at that, not everyone was allowed to have email access.

Now nearly everyone has a higher bandwidth than big universities used to have for the entire campus back then to share with thousands of users at the same time.

Progress is not always bad.

Post# 1026615 , Reply# 29   3/9/2019 at 00:27 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

In a section of Greenville BLVD there is a stretch of the road lit by LEDS and another lit by HPS--The HPS is MUCH BETTER esp during rain or fog.I would rip out those new LED lights and put the old HPS back.At least with HID fixtures there are ANSI standars for the ballasts and bulbs,sockets.Not so with LED most it is difficult to replace parts like the LED driver-ballast or the LED elements.So the WHOLE fixture has to be replaced and the old one trashed.Is this REALLY better for the environment?The lower light levels from the LED-and most are GLARE bombs.For home use and portable lights-LEDS are great.For large outdoor lighting HID is still best-and beware most LED lights do not have the lumen per watt values that HPS and ceramic metal halide have.As far as the LED and HID headlights go-try dring with them and you will see-they light up road lines better,road signs,and fluoresce deer and animal eyes better-you can see those more cleary and from further away-for the driver these newer lights are an IMPROVEMENT over the older lights.

Post# 1026619 , Reply# 30   3/9/2019 at 01:13 by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        
Where these new-fangled LED’s DO have their place:

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The heavy, bulky, obsolete mercury vapors in the parking lot at the Walmart I used to work at were falling apart, fragments and pieces were falling down, almost on people and cars, so here’s where smaller, lighter LED’s were just the thing...

When I started working there, and I was sitting in my car on a break during a rain shower, I saw a huge ball of orangish-yellowish light in the airacross the roadway, just for a day later to see a broken street light with a huge black mark on the concrete at the foot of it, and a few broken pieces of what would be from the fixture and glass lens from overhead—a lightning bolt probably lit it up, and then blew it out...

— Dave

Post# 1026622 , Reply# 31   3/9/2019 at 01:58 by tolivac (greenville nc)        

The mercury lights here at the worksite parking lot have been replaced by LED-215W the mercury lights were 250 and 400W.The fixtures here were in great shape when replaced.When the LEDs came in I was able to take some of the old mercury lights home and light them just for fun sometimes.Mercury does have an advantage in that the lamps and ballasts can run for YEARS without degrading or color change.Already the few year old GE Evolve LED lights at the WalMart here have changed in color-from blue-white to Green-white.Some of the lights strobe.The neighboring Food Lion MH lights run steady and constant.The Food Lion did replace the inside 400W MH lights with LED-these are doing very well.With LEd you can get the bad or the good.Now if fixtures are coming apart-yes,they should be replaced.For overall life we really don't know how long the LEDs will last.It still is infant technology-HID has been around for many decades.So the HID is proven technology.I wouldn't be so fast in replacements just yet.

Post# 1026766 , Reply# 32   3/10/2019 at 18:25 by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

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>How many folks are reading from & posting to using a phone, tablet, or computer that has a screen lit with LED technology?

Good point. Although it's entirely possible LED detractors here are using older LCD or even CRT screens! One day, there may even be a post about how much better CRT computer screens are.

Post# 1026767 , Reply# 33   3/10/2019 at 18:35 by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

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>The irony is palpable. I remember that up to the early 90's or so, only people in universities and rich companies could even pay for the internet, and even at that, not everyone was allowed to have email access.

I remember working for one place around 2001, and, back then, people had to have a position above a certain level to get an e-mail address. I can't remember the exact position one had to be at (or above), but I'm thinking that most employees did not have e-mail, even though most positions required at least some light computer use.

I no longer work there, but based on what people whom I knew back then say, I think today everyone has an e-mail address, regardless of position. Times change.

As for universities... I recall one local university doing some building in the 80s, and I seem to recall hearing about wiring for the future (computers). I've sometimes wondered if that wiring was ever used--by the time it was probably needed, the technology was probably outdated.

Post# 1026791 , Reply# 34   3/11/2019 at 01:59 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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LordKenmore: Although it's entirely possible LED detractors here are using older LCD or even CRT screens! One day, there may even be a post about how much better CRT computer screens are.
I don't know the curve for when the balance tipped to LCD and/or LED computer monitors over CRT but I can say I got my first LCD (two, both of which I'm still using) in May 2009. No need to replace for an LED until they go kablooey.

My TVs are a 42" plasma panel (Sept 2002) in the living room and a 27" CRT (Oct 1987) in the bedroom. The plasma will stay until it goes kablooey. The CRT is used ~daily for General Hospital, *rarely* for anything else.  Also have a 24" CRT (2005) inherited from the grandmother 5 years ago (have not used it), and a 20" CRT (1986) that needs to be trashed (picture is bad last time I tried it).

Post# 1026804 , Reply# 35   3/11/2019 at 04:03 by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

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>I don't know the curve for when the balance tipped to LCD and/or LED computer monitors over CRT but I can say I got my first LCD (two, both of which I'm still using) in May 2009.

I'm pretty sure I heard some people in one computer Facebook group talk about preferring CRT since 2009. BUT they had specialized needs. Graphics IIRC.

I have to say, though, I was really happy to make the transition to LCD monitors. My first LCD monitor was old, and didn't have good picture quality--it was easily bettered by a CRT monitor--but the text clarity was so good compared to all the CRT monitors I had experience with. I really missed the text clarity when that monitor died, and I had to go back to a CRT for a period, even though that CRT was a pretty good CRT. Eventually, I was able to find a good, used LCD monitor, and that was it for my use of CRT monitors, at least on a day-to-day basis.

I have no idea LCD computer monitors improved to a tipping point for me...but I definitely used (but didn't own) a monitor made no later than 2007 that was good enough that I doubt I'd have ever missed CRT. I have, as a toy, a 1996 or so Apple PowerBook 1400CS. Based on limited experience, I could not live with that PowerBook's monitor as my one and only...and I'm not sure I could live it as a secondary screen. Color isn't good, but the big thing is that when typing fast it takes too long for letters to appear, and there is too much "ghosting" with the mouse pointer. BUT the screen technology wasn't optimal, even by 1996 standards--it was the "cheap" approach. I remember reading of people who bought high end PowerBooks just to get a better screen. But I've also read people who had that level of screen technology in some PowerBook, and were happy at the time. "Your mileage may vary" and all that.

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