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Thread Number: 73366
/ Tag: Detergents and Additives
Hard Towels |
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Post# 969054 , Reply# 1 11/20/2017 at 07:28 (2,347 days old) by askolover  (South of Nash Vegas, TN) |
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Post# 969061 , Reply# 3 11/20/2017 at 08:15 (2,347 days old) by vacbear58 (Sutton In Ashfield, East Midlands, UK) |
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Line Drying
Your problem is the line drying, I have the same problem a bit further north from you - I never use any form of softener either - there have been comments too that softener reduces the absorbancy of towels too.
So mine always go in the dryer, everything else I will always line dry if possible - I love sheets and bedding that have been dried on the line. Soar panels and a heat pump dryer (Beko) keep the costs down. Al | ||
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Post# 969070 , Reply# 4 11/20/2017 at 08:49 (2,347 days old) by marky_mark (From Liverpool. Now living in Palm Springs and Dublin) |
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 Tumble drying them will probably have the greatest effect on making them softer. You should find that they are much softer but still just as absorbent. It's important not to over dry them, as that would leave them less soft. You want the dryer to terminate leaving just the right tiny amount of moisture in the towels.
I do use vinegar for my towels in place of regular fabric conditioner. Tests have shown that vinegar doesn't soften towels nearly as well as fabric conditioner, but nor does it reduce absorbency. Basically the more a fabric conditioner softens, the more it reduces absorbency. You have to decide which is more important to you and what balance you're prepared to accept.
You might find that a gentle, cool wash with mild liquid detergent will leave them softer, but it obviously won't clean them as well. I certainly would prefer clean towels over soft towels in this case! You might be able to still wash them at 60 °C for hygiene but on a gentler/shorter cycle with a higher water level and/or less agitation.
If you live in a hard water area and don't have a water softener, then it's important to add enough detergent to soften the water but without overdosing. Adding STPP (phosphate) may help -- it's readily available online. | ||
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Post# 969071 , Reply# 5 11/20/2017 at 08:58 (2,347 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio) |
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Soft towels A liquid detergent will make your towels softer because of the lack of Zeolites. I just stripped my towels using 4T of STPP yesterday and they feel great! I always use an extra rinse but residues still remain. | ||
| Post# 969072 , Reply# 6 11/20/2017 at 09:13 (2,347 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan) | ||
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Also, an extra rinse helps. | ||
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Post# 969087 , Reply# 7 11/20/2017 at 11:51 (2,347 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey) |
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always found when switching to cold rinses, line dried items did come out stiffer compared to when we used warm rinses....Mom was not big on using a softener...
so in exchange, toss the load in the dryer for about 10/15 minutes, then hang out to dry.... also, if possible, hang your clothes in the sunshine rather than a shaded area... | ||
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Post# 969117 , Reply# 9 11/20/2017 at 15:01 (2,347 days old) by lotsosudz (Sacramento, CA) |
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Air Tumble | ||
| Post# 969122 , Reply# 10 11/20/2017 at 15:59 (2,347 days old) by triumphdolomite (Staffs(UK)) | ||
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Extra Rinse I also find that extra rinsing helps. If I wash towels in the twin tub and do four or five deep rinses in the sink they are noticeably softer after line drying than if they have been in the Miele, even with water plus selected to give three rinses with a spin between each. | ||
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Post# 969148 , Reply# 11 11/20/2017 at 19:40 (2,346 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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It's the line dryng luv!
Back when bath linen was made from woven linen, cotton or hemp, ironing smoothed things down> That and such fabrics are less likely to be scratchy after laundering.
Terry cloth is another matter and wants something more... Try tumble drying just until damp, then hanging to air dry. That or as suggest do the reverse; line dry then pop into dryer to soften things up a bit. | ||
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Post# 969150 , Reply# 12 11/20/2017 at 19:46 (2,346 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Fabric softeners and absorbency of textiles
While the fabric softeners of old that were heavy on tallow and other fats/oils may have caused problems with absorbency; today's modern concoctions that are "fabric conditioners" seem to have solved that problem.
Like using a very small amount of Vernel, Caldrea or Method fabric rinses more for the scent than anything else. Makes drying off after a bath a bit more of a pleasure. Shouldn't use pure soap only for washing terry cloth toweling. Well suppose one could if had tons of soft/clean and *HOT* water for the washes and the two, three or more rinses that must follow. Even then a steady practice of laundering such items in soap would likely mean they'll need to be "stripped" now and then to keep their absorbency. Culprit is same thing in fabric softeners of old; tallow, fats and oils in soap. Similarly if one uses a wash leather and soap for bathing, those cloths might need a good strong wash now and then to get out any soap residue. | ||
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Post# 969206 , Reply# 14 11/21/2017 at 04:14 (2,346 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Ben, how hard is the water in your area ? At 60° and above hard water minerals begin to cristallize, this can lead to incrustation resulting in sandpaper terrycotton.
Limescale deposits are only one option leading to hard towels, if you live in a soft water area plain mechanical action causing a disarangement of the fibers during the washcycle can be the culprit too but that is usually way less severe. So if a mineral build up is the cause some sources suggest to soak the towels over night in water with lots of vinegar then wash as usual. Others say the problem is terminal and recommend new towels and then either increase the detergent load or use an additional water softener as a preventive meassure. If the problem is not hard water related the use of a tumble dryer will help considerably. If you don`t have one you could shake them out before hang drying like there`s no tomorrow. This helps to get the terry cotton back in order. Fabric softeners will only cure the symptoms but not the cause. When used at moderation today`s softeners won`t mess with absorbancy as badly as they did in the past. I found a quarter of the recommended dose is plenty enough for a full load of towels to make them soft but still absorbant, but that`s just my personal preference. | ||
| Post# 969208 , Reply# 15 11/21/2017 at 04:32 (2,346 days old) by Liberatordeluxe (UK) | ||
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Thanks all for the helpful tips. I don't have a dryer yet but will try the vinegar rinse and using a liquid detergent. Currently using Seventh Generation. My water is classed as very hard the same as London's water! | ||
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Post# 969252 , Reply# 16 11/21/2017 at 12:19 (2,346 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Launderess, what kind of FS are you referring to when you mention tallow, fats and oils in soap ? I could only imagine pre war technologies once used by the textile industry to make processes like spinning or weaving easier.
AFAIK FS for houshold use as we know it today was invented in the 1960s and has always been based on cationic surfactants, at least on this side of the pond. I thought maybe there is a missunderstanding because it might have been different in the USA. In the beginning the cationic surfactants were derived from mineral oil but biodegradability was bad so those surfactants fell out of favor in the 1990s. Today tallow and palm oil are the most common raw materials to produce those surfactants. Cationic surfactants have a water friendly head and an oil friendly tail just like any other surfactant (e.g. soap), the difference is the electrical charge of their heads. After washing and rinsing clothes are negatively charged from the anionic sufactants found in any laundry detergent. The positively charged heads of FS attach to the negatively charged clothes so their oil loving tails now stick out "and away" from the fibers. Those oil loving surfactant`s tails act like a lubricant and give clothes a softer touch, reduce static charge and of course reduce absorbancy. Correct me if I`m wrong or missing something but I still see no oils in soap when thinking of FS. One thing I don`t understand entirely is why the cationic surfactants in FS form vesciles instead of the usual mycelles. Technical literature also mentions emulsions. I thought bad water solubility of ester quats and similar surfactants might be the reason but honestly I don`t know. | ||
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Post# 969299 , Reply# 17 11/21/2017 at 19:35 (2,345 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"........you mention tallow, fats and oils in soap ....&
Tallow dimethyl ammonium chloride
www.madehow.com/Volume-7/Fabric-S... www.wired.com/2008/11/st-whatsin... www.treehugger.com/green-food/ve... Early P&G patent: www.google.com/patents/US... | ||
| Post# 969303 , Reply# 18 11/21/2017 at 19:48 (2,345 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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Post# 969345 , Reply# 19 11/22/2017 at 02:54 (2,345 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Thanks for providing the scources of your wisdom, now we`re finally on the same page.
Confirms most of what I wrote, except that I had no idea that the fatty tails of those cationic surfactants are so "strong" (or is it the water loving heads so weak ?) that emulsifers have to be added. I knew about bad water solubility but couldn`t imagine it was so bad. Now I can finally understand when you simplify things to "it`s just fats and soap". | ||
| Post# 969383 , Reply# 20 11/22/2017 at 11:29 (2,345 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio) | ||
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Alternating washloads of my bath towels get Downy, that way they are soft AND absorbing. Try it, it works. Lawrence/Maytagbear. | ||
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Post# 969625 , Reply# 21 11/24/2017 at 03:13 (2,343 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Now that we can hopefully agree that Tallow dimethyl ammonium chloride and similar compounds (other ester quats) are a different beast than Tallow dissolved in Sodium tallowate (superfatted soap) I`d like to point out the disadvantages of the latter.
-Just fats dissolved in soap would probably be extremly irritant to the skin because the soap (or detergent) content would remain in clothes. -If natural soap was used as a solvent think of the mess (soapscum) you`d get when using this FS in hard water. -Just think of how clothes would smell when pure tallow gets rancid in clothes. But again I get your point, after all unlike most other surfactants those quats used in FS show nearly no detergency and are indeed of a rather greasy nature. How is it going with your towels Ben ? Have you been successful with the vinegar treatment ? This post was last edited 11/24/2017 at 05:54 | ||
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Post# 969626 , Reply# 22 11/24/2017 at 04:32 (2,343 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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I confess to being a bit perplexed by the usage in the industry of fabric softener and fabric conditioner.
As far as I can tell, the manufacturers use these terms interchangeably, and products advertised as "fabric conditioner" can be labeled "fabric softener" and vice versa. Often those labeled "fabric conditioner" may be loaded up with more exotic fragrances, and if you don't want your laundry smelling like a cheap whorehouse, you might opt for a "free and clear" product which I invariably find is labeled (and advertised) as a softener. So the nub of this problem is which will leave one's towels both soft and absorbant? Well, depends. My take on this is that they all have long chain fatty acids in them, so they all have the capability of rendering fabrics less water absorbent. Makes little difference if the fatty acids come from cows, chickens, soybeans, or avocados. Previous suggestions to tumble rather than line dry, or a combination thereof, will leave a softer towel the absorbency of which is not compromised. Vinegar doesn't seem, in my experience, to influence softness or the lack thereof much, but it does seem to cut down on residual sudsing in the final rinse. Hard water can result in harsh results and STPP is probably the best water softener one can add to one's wash water. I have however seen statements here that STPP can impart harshness by adhering to fabric fibers. I would think this runs counter to the way STPP works, by complexing with hard water minerals so that they no longer form sticky precipitates with detergents and don't stick to fabrics and do get rinsed away in the final rinse(s). Of course if one uses too much of anything it can not get rinsed away and cause problems related to that situation. And perhaps STPP is reactive enough that if it doesn't find hard water minerals to latch onto, it might try to latch onto fabric fibers. Just speculation there, but if that is the case, one should be careful not to add more STTP than is necessary to soften the water and break mineral laden dirt from the fabric. In any case, I've found it helpful to monitor the sudsing during the rinse cycle. If the suds don't go away it can indicate too much detergent for the level of water hardness and fabric soiling, which in turn can result in harsher results. For a while I had to resort to adding little or no detergent (powder or liquid) to loads of towels to keep residual sudsing down. The final results were softer than before, and the towels (for bath) were basically clean from the hot wash water and multiple cold rinses used. I was able then to gradually add much more limited amounts of detergent to maintain those desirable results. In other words, more is not necessarily better. | ||
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Post# 969636 , Reply# 23 11/24/2017 at 07:43 (2,343 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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From what I gather the term Fabric Conditioner can mean a lot but is usually a step above Fabric Softener. This could be the addition of polymeres, silicones or even quats based on silicones.
The clear products are usually called conditioners too. Apparently they use unsaturated fatty acids (wich are fluid at room temperature) for manufacturing the cationic surfactants and different solvents. This results in a more transparent product which can penetrate the fibers more deeply and doesn`t mess too much with absorbancy. Traditional FS`s are milky emulsions because their fatty acid chains are solid at room temperature. The more I read and learn about the stuff the less I am willing to use it. But I guess old habits die hard. Anyway it is an interesting topic ! | ||
| Post# 969895 , Reply# 24 11/25/2017 at 14:35 (2,342 days old) by Liberatordeluxe (UK) | ||
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@mrboilwash the vinegar has helped. I have also bought Acdo soap powder from Home Bargains as found this good particularly for towels. | ||
| Post# 969915 , Reply# 25 11/25/2017 at 15:51 (2,342 days old) by johnrk (BP TX) | ||
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I'm So Glad the vinegar helped! I just never could tolerate that waxy, slimy sensation of liquid fabric softener--rather like a combination of snot and semen. I'm a real user of white vinegar around the house. It's so cheap and it does so many things well. | ||
| Post# 970215 , Reply# 26 11/27/2017 at 08:32 (2,340 days old) by dixan (Europe) | ||
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Liberatordeluxe, you need a good rinse. Tesco powder contains quite a good ammount of zeolites, which are known for making fabrics rough, because they are rinsed out very hard. Good rinse will give you soft fabrics even without the evil softener. | ||
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Post# 970227 , Reply# 27 11/27/2017 at 09:30 (2,340 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio) |
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johnrk I too hate the feeling of too much fabric softener! A lot of my relatives wash a lot in cold and warm with copious amounts of Downy. It makes the clothes feel even more unclean. Fortunately I wash my towels in hot all the time and it removes a lot of the residue before FS is dispensed. | ||
| Post# 970247 , Reply# 28 11/27/2017 at 12:09 (2,340 days old) by johnrk (BP TX) | ||
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Tesco Living in Texas, I have no idea about Tesco powder. Is there a reason that it would have more zeolites than other laundry detergents? I went looking on Wikipedia and was surprised to discover that my cat's litter is likely made from zeolites. | ||
| Post# 970248 , Reply# 29 11/27/2017 at 12:10 (2,340 days old) by johnrk (BP TX) | ||
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Tesco Living in Texas, I have no idea about Tesco powder. Is there a reason that it would have more zeolites than other laundry detergents? I went looking on Wikipedia and was surprised to discover that my cat's litter is likely made from zeolites. | ||
| Post# 970249 , Reply# 30 11/27/2017 at 12:20 (2,340 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago) | ||
I've been enjoying the canola-based Method softeners for years now.
methodhome.com/products/fabric-s... | ||
| Post# 970267 , Reply# 31 11/27/2017 at 13:59 (2,340 days old) by liberatordeluxe (UK) | ||
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Which powder in the UK has the least zeolites? | ||
| Post# 970280 , Reply# 32 11/27/2017 at 16:38 (2,340 days old) by AquaCycle (West Yorkshire, UK) | ||
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| Post# 970303 , Reply# 33 11/27/2017 at 19:00 (2,339 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod) | ||
Just got back from my Dad's in NJ for the Holiday.
I always bring my own Towels. It is strictly a Cold Water Wash household. I was cooking one night and picked up a Dish Towel that smelled like what would imagine... "A Jock or Ass-ole in High School that never brought home his towel or Gym Clothes for the entire Year". Well, back in the 60s and 70s we had to be responsible for out Gym Stuff. I remember 4 years ago I went to stay there for 3 weeks. While no one was home, I ran the FL washer on a Sanitize with Bleach before I could wash my own. I was ready to go to the "Coin O Mat" down the street. They should call them "Bill O Mats" these days | ||
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