Thread Number: 73425  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
PROOF That H.E. Washers DON'T Save Water!
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Post# 969615   11/23/2017 at 23:01 (359 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Came across this. As much as I wish it were true, my personal observation is that his conclusion is flat out wrong. For one a top load washer with clothes will fill with less water as the clothes displace said water triggering the pressure switch on actual water level height- not measured gallons. Second- the HE washer. That is not an HE fill. A deep fill yes- but not an HE fill. No HE fill uses that much water. Further multiplying by two is also incorrect even for a deep fill in that on many HE machines the rinse is a spray rinse rather than a second deep fill. All in all the second video is seriously flawed and the conclusions reached in the first one are wrong. The comments agreeing are disheartening. Would not surprise me if ones call the video out as wrong were deleted as I see few to none.

Post# 969616 , Reply# 1   11/23/2017 at 23:28 (359 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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And FWIW, can someone inject some truth and likes into the comment section? Hate to see average folks being mislead.

"11 treehuggers had a stroke after watching this video."

Um no, perhaps they know your conclusion is wrong?

"jaykay18 America has many stupid traditions aside from washing machine designs and imperial system..."

"Don't go bashing another country if you don't live there." (3 like)

Well guess what, I live here so therefore I can bash. HE machines run on HE cycles use less water than traditional top load machines. Europe got that right, US has it wrong in that regard. Instead of totting an ego, maybe you can lower your defense mechanisms and learn something?

Rant over- just hate seeing the subversion of truth.

Post# 969627 , Reply# 2   11/24/2017 at 05:22 (359 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

Saw either this video or one similar a few months ago. The tub in the HE washer is much larger than the tub in the traditional machine. Of course it's going to take more water to fill it.  

Post# 969628 , Reply# 3   11/24/2017 at 05:32 (359 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Yes- with deep selected (if present). But on an HE or auto sense cycle- I doubt it will be anywhere near that.

Post# 969632 , Reply# 4   11/24/2017 at 06:51 (359 days old) by joeypete (Concord, NH)        

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HE washers have morphed a bit in the last couple of years to be more versatile, probably due to consumer complaints. Seems as though now you can pick HE or non-HE on most machines, at least for certain cycles. But I think most washers that offer auto load sensing are considered HE machines, in the sense that they don't use more water by default.

I've had my FP WashSmart for almost a month now and its technically not considered an HE machine. It does offer auto load sensing AND manual control. The auto sensing def uses less water and when combined with the spray rinse, uses A LOT less water. It basically fills with just enough water to suspend the items, and I wouldn't compare it to typical HE water levels. It uses more water. Wash action is noticeably different using looks more like the GE Hydrowave...moving clothes side to side, then down, rollover is therefore slower...where as using manual water level it has traditional wash action, more downward and back up.

I don't watch most of the videos like you posted. I find these people to be a bit fanatically about disproving anything modern. It gets old. :-/

Post# 969634 , Reply# 5   11/24/2017 at 07:18 (359 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Especially top load HE washers

do not save water, unless the efficiency cycle is used. Then you can't load much in. So, by having to do more loads, no they don't save water.
My 3.6 cubic ft. HE washer's specs say a bulky cycle load uses 52 gallons. The larger the tub, the more water it will use.

Since my normal cycle no longer works properly by only filling to the top of the impeller fins, but rather a half tub of water, I use the hand wash cycle which fills a third tub full. I've tried larger loads on the bulky cycle, which fills all the way to the top, and the laundry floats with little roll over.

It used to also pulse slow spin fill, now static fill, except on rinse. It's a late 2010 model
Whirltag Bravos X VMW product.
Maybe they've improved the load sensing system by now. If not, next time I'll just buy the bottom line model with 4 water levels and a full up agitator, except those don't fit larger blankets or comforters.
I had an extended warranty, so the gear case was replaced in winter of 2014.
Otherwise, at the black Friday price we paid, it would already be history. I think eco friendly means shred and recycle. More energy has to also be used to do that. We needed a new dryer, and the set was on sale. We figured our 20 plus year old Maytag that never had a repair would need one, or replacement soon. Do the math. Which company is out of business? Even when a Maytag costed more than a Whirlpool washer back in the day, long term, they likely saved the consumer money in repairs.

Post# 969642 , Reply# 6   11/24/2017 at 09:02 (359 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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JoeyPete is right.....this gets old.....

this is one subject that will go on and on like beating a dead horse....

no one is going to change my mind, no more than someone trying to change yours...

we do our own investigations, come to our own conclusions, and leave it at that....

you either like it, or you don't.....

you can't call any machine an HE if your not operating in HE MODE!....

my Cabrio has an EcoMonitor, there are four 'Normal' is selected and specific defaults are in you start to add options, hot wash, deep fill wash and rinse, etc, the lights start going off, and your heading towards poor energy savings....


Post# 969644 , Reply# 7   11/24/2017 at 09:13 (359 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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The only washers that are supposed to clean worth a dam and be still HE machines are fronmt loaders.  Top load "HE" machines are a joke. 

Post# 969654 , Reply# 8   11/24/2017 at 10:51 (359 days old) by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        

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Thank you Joeypete and Martin! This is a topic that will never be resolved for those that donít like HE TLís.

So, if you donít like them, donít but one!

I am confused though why there are so many complaints about these washers using so much water on Deep Fill? I would think that if the haters of this type of washer would be happy that there was an option for filling with more water when it is neccesary, seems like the best of both worlds to me.

Its not always necessary to have a complete deep fill with the way these machines are designed to operate. I find that my Maytag Centennial HE TL does an excellent job cleaning all types of loads, due to its adapatability and flexibility. I can wash 2 kingsize pillows at once, or a kingsize heavy bedspread or comforter and these all come at spotlessly clean.

So if you havenít tried one, donít knock it, you may be pleasantly surprised one day when you finally do use one.

I wouldnít think of dissing your choice of brand or style of washer. Use what is best for you and enjoy them, its still a free country.

And this statement was meant with no disrespect.

Post# 969661 , Reply# 9   11/24/2017 at 12:31 (359 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

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A mind is a terrible thing to waste

Post# 969663 , Reply# 10   11/24/2017 at 13:18 (359 days old) by ea56 (Sonoma Co.,CA)        
A mind is a terrible thing to waste

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I couldnít agree with you more, especially when the mind is closed to anything new.

Post# 969665 , Reply# 11   11/24/2017 at 13:58 (359 days old) by murando531 (Huntsville, AL)        

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People only want to gripe for the sake of griping. It doesn't matter how much logic they're presented with. This is especially true with our current political climate. HE washers of both types work perfectly fine, if the user has enough common sense to operate them properly.

Post# 969666 , Reply# 12   11/24/2017 at 14:12 (359 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Love my Calypso, granddaddy of the modern HE toploader.

Post# 969677 , Reply# 13   11/24/2017 at 15:56 (359 days old) by lotsosudz (Sacramento, CA)        
I Agree with Bob

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When you look at true water saving, a front load is your best bet! I think that HE top load machines, are in some way, a way to wean TL users over to the idea of saving water. But clearly they are a far cry away from the perfect idea of water conservation! Just Say'in.
Hugs, David

Post# 969679 , Reply# 14   11/24/2017 at 16:09 (359 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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I know certain cycles will force an HE toploader to use almost as much as classic toploader- but this guy makes it sound like its the case for everything. Very misleading. And yes- part of the HE problem is that people just don't get them.

Post# 969784 , Reply# 15   11/25/2017 at 02:02 (358 days old) by dartman (Portland Oregon)        

All I know is my water usage dropped significantly when I upgraded to my 28102 Kenmore and my clothes get clean. I needed to save money on my overpriced water bill and being much bigger capacity and quieter is a bonus. I agree too many folks have a automatic bias against anything new and look for ways to make it seem bad. If that's the way everything works we'd still be driving model T cars and using wringer washers.

Post# 969820 , Reply# 16   11/25/2017 at 07:30 (358 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Wise old adage;

"You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, but never all of them all of the time."

As for politics, I agree it's disgusting. Maybe I think too much, but there should never be two candidates from the same state. They also were not very opposed to one another at the third wedding. Their children are friends since high school and also married men who are friends.
So there, hash that for a while. Maybe we were all played.
Charles De Gull said this; "The politician poses as a servant in order to become the master."
Everyone recall the market crash of October 1989? Not born yet? I lost my shirt.
Recall the tax cut of 2004? Lots of job creation follow? Nope! A recession did though. By late 2005, ten percent of us were already affected.
Here is too the best of everything in the new year! Live long, and prosper!

Speaking of brains, my better half's former boss left last June. The new one doesn't know the job, and is constantly asking him for help, and wants the team to monitor each other, which is her job. They confer she may have had a poor review. You can not, or should not sit in a chair position when you are incompetent and omnipotent. Delegation does have limits. It is wrong to take credit for a job others do, and or the compensation. Also the tram is all salaried, with no overtime, and this will add to their work loads while subtracting from hers.
I think they are all going to appeal to her superior.
Everyone answers to someone. Even the dude at the top.

Post# 969836 , Reply# 17   11/25/2017 at 09:09 (358 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        

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Closed minds, but somehow open mouths...

-- Dave

Post# 969837 , Reply# 18   11/25/2017 at 09:19 (358 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

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I have common sense.


I think.w1

Post# 969840 , Reply# 19   11/25/2017 at 09:51 (358 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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Post# 969841 , Reply# 20   11/25/2017 at 09:57 (358 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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I see common sense comes with a frontloader. ;-)

Post# 969865 , Reply# 21   11/25/2017 at 12:52 (358 days old) by Maytag85 (SoCal )        

I've said this before, but top loads will always be the true and althentic automatic washer.

Yes, front loaders are automatic washers, but they aren't as automatic as a traditional top loader.

Post# 969869 , Reply# 22   11/25/2017 at 13:16 (358 days old) by GusHerb (Chicago/NWI)        

What's less automatic about tossing ones clothes in, putting detergent in a drawer and pressing a button?

Post# 969871 , Reply# 23   11/25/2017 at 13:22 (358 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Maytag85:† ...front loaders are automatic washers, but they aren't as automatic as a traditional top loader.
Please explain in full detail to support your statement.

Post# 969876 , Reply# 24   11/25/2017 at 13:44 (358 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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oh this ought to be a good one....

Post# 969877 , Reply# 25   11/25/2017 at 13:46 (358 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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Post# 969883 , Reply# 26   11/25/2017 at 13:52 (358 days old) by agiflow2 ()        

... maybe you meant not as "iconic" as a top load washer?

Post# 969897 , Reply# 27   11/25/2017 at 15:00 (358 days old) by washman (Butler, PA)        

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I also have C9 holiday light bulbs

Post# 969905 , Reply# 28   11/25/2017 at 15:28 (358 days old) by Maytag85 (SoCal )        

1. Top loaders can get a fairly large load cleaned in about 30-35 minutes, or even less time than that.

2. Front loaders don't clean as well as a traditional top load washer.

3. Traditional top loaders are cheaper to buy, and are more reliable than a newer front loader.

4. Front loaders are difficult to repair, and require a lot of labor to repair.

5. You can use any detergent you want in a traditional top load washer.

6. Detergent choices are limited when you have a front loader, or any HE washer.

7. Top loaders plain work, and do what they are supposed to do.

Post# 969906 , Reply# 29   11/25/2017 at 15:33 (358 days old) by rp2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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And the "hide" option pays off yet again . . .

Post# 969931 , Reply# 30   11/25/2017 at 16:38 (358 days old) by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

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Maytag85, the points you listed are not related to the term automatic.

Taken for what the points are:

1)† Maybe.

2) Both types can clean nicely but a frontloader that can do a profile wash by way of onboard water heating is hard for a toploader to beat.

3)† Low-end toploaders are less cost but there are low- and mid-line frontloaders that cost less than the highly-respected SQ toploaders.

4)† Not always.

5)† True.

6)† Limited to an increasingly lesser degree being that non-HE detergents seem to be disappearing from the market.

7)† Both types perform the intended function.

Post# 969939 , Reply# 31   11/25/2017 at 16:52 (358 days old) by iej (Ireland)        

Have I entered the religious washer war thread? Top vs Front!!

Not very many of those points hold up and a front loader with recirculation can typically do a full load in about an hour or so.

They absolutely do clean very well. Thereís really no debate on that one.

Also how are they ďless automaticĒ ?

In some ways theyíre *more* automatic, as they can do things like dispense pre wash detergent, main wash detergent and softener automatically as standard. Most of them also have endless cycle options compared to typical top load machines.

My experience of both types is that top loaders are fast but donít necessarily wash as well and definitely cannot be loaded as densely, due to the washing motion needing to suspend the clothes in water.

Also I found TL machines Iíve used (in the US and here) much rougher on clothes. I got pilling on clothes Iíve never had in a front loader.

Both systems work but I would say the only advantage of top loaders is cycle speed.
Front loaders are definitely more water efficient and definitely can wash far more effectively and gently, but use significantly longer cycles to do so.

But each to their own! I wouldnít really like a TL machine as I find them too rough on some of my favorite items.

Post# 969949 , Reply# 32   11/25/2017 at 18:04 (357 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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And I think I am being misunderstood again as my posts are getting fewer likes then those below me. I will be very blunt: FRONT LOAD, AND TOP LOAD WASHERS ON HE SETTINGS, USE FAR LESS WATER. I'm on your side guys. I come in agreement :)

Post# 969958 , Reply# 33   11/25/2017 at 18:52 (357 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I know, y'all came back to read this, just for a good laugh!!!...

that wasn't an opinion, that was a FACT ! ! !.....

Post# 969962 , Reply# 34   11/25/2017 at 20:09 (357 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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I say a real test with a laundry tub is in order.

Post# 969968 , Reply# 35   11/25/2017 at 20:43 (357 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
laundry tub test :)

I use a laundry tub,and a few weeks back swapped my '82 SQ marathon(classic traditional top load)for 2010 VMW Cabrio(topload HE washplate unit)and discovered the cabrio uses a little less than half the water as the SQ running a load that would be considered large in the smaller capacity vintage SQ.similar size load in the '01 He3 frontload discharged ~20-30%less drainwater than the cabrio.The cabrio will deliver impressive wash results as long as load large enough to get good circulation.Cabrio generates plenty of lint though,a little more than the SQ and a lot more than the He3

Post# 969970 , Reply# 36   11/25/2017 at 20:50 (357 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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And that is something you should have put on Youtube. I think thats what will really tell the truth.

Post# 969977 , Reply# 37   11/25/2017 at 21:17 (357 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
Forgot to mention...

these 3 machines all ran similar wash times:53 min. cabrio,45 He3,and SQ probably ~45 min.

Post# 969995 , Reply# 38   11/25/2017 at 22:40 (357 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Sean (Maytag85) said: "I've said this before, but top loads will always be the true and althentic automatic washer.

Yes, front loaders are automatic washers, but they aren't as automatic as a traditional top loader.

And then offered more statements:

"1. Top loaders can get a fairly large load cleaned in about 30-35 minutes, or even less time than that.

2. Front loaders don't clean as well as a traditional top load washer.

3. Traditional top loaders are cheaper to buy, and are more reliable than a newer front loader.

4. Front loaders are difficult to repair, and require a lot of labor to repair.

5. You can use any detergent you want in a traditional top load washer.

6. Detergent choices are limited when you have a front loader, or any HE washer.

7. Top loaders plain work, and do what they are supposed to do."

Not sure exactly what he means by "authentic", but let's just say that the *original* or *first* automatic washer was the Bendix front loader.

As for "you can use any detergent with a toploader", I would like to point out that no, you can't. And if you want to, ask anyone who lives in say, South America, to send you a little of their standard detergents. It will foam up so much that suds will flow between the top of the tub and the machine housing, usually causing problems with machines that have unprotected parts, like electric motors. What Sean does not know is that even "standard" "high-sudsing" detergents like Tide sold in the last 25 years in US are actually "controlled suds" detergents. When you try a detergent that has *no* suds suppression agents you will see very quickly that you need the scoop of detergent to clean clothes, but without suds suppression, even with a toploader, you won't be able to add even 1/2 a scoop. And it won't clean worth a damn.

What you have been witnessing in US is weakly controlled suds vs. heavy controlled suds for frontloaders. And to be honest, Sean, you will be even happier, top- or front-loading, when you finally try zero suds detergents. *Then* you can use enough to clean and get everything rinsed. But your "thesis" that one can use *any* detergent with toploaders is crap. I spent years in South America paying much more for a controlled suds detergent (Skip) because the "standard" detergents either caused machines to malfunction or didn't rinse, forcing you to repeat the rinse cycle multiple times. You have no idea what the heck you are talking about.

I will not address the other points individually -- I think it suffices to say that I have *many* friends who go to Pennsic every year. (See link below.) The ones that have frontloaders just do their laundry in their own homes with their own equipment. The ones that have toploaders usually ask people like me if they can come over after Pennsic and spend a day doing laundry in our home, where they not only will do half the loads, because the frontloaders are much larger than their toploaders, but also they get the clothes cleaner without *any* more work than putting the clothes in, loading detergent and pressing "start".

Sean, we're not saying that you *have* to like frontloaders, in fact you are allowed to hate them and love your toploader(s).

But if you are gonna spread misinformation, you will have a hard time, because we are tired of hearing dozens of lies everyday on the fake news and tweets that a certain citizen and his cronies are subjecting us to.

It's a scientific fact that can be proven over and over and over again, and my friends know it: toploaders were great improvement in the 40's and 50's and they are nice to have for anyone who needs clothes that are not very dirty washed clean. But if you have *very* dirty clothes, you will be *much* better off *nowadays* if you can wash them in a HE machine -- and currently they offer both top loading and front loading HE washers, take your pick.

†††-- Paulo.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO earthling177's LINK

Post# 969996 , Reply# 39   11/25/2017 at 23:05 (357 days old) by agiflow2 ()        

I said it once and I'll say it again. My Maytag Bravos I had nearly 5 years ago got my white socks clean like no other washer I ever had or used. The difference was noticeable. That low water and the impeller made like a scrub board effect.

This thing about heavy linting with an HE top loader I found to not be true. I have my father who used to Leave his tissues in his pockets and not once did any of them shred up. On a few occasions they were still folded up in his pockets.

In a regular top loader there would be pieces of paper tissue all over the clothes and basket

That was the one thing i couldn't fault that Bravos for. It was a great cleaner. Everything else about it was less than stellar.

Post# 969997 , Reply# 40   11/25/2017 at 23:12 (357 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
What this thread became...

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I had a feeling of dread and mortification whilst reading this thread, I know Sean has opposing beliefs to most here and very often voices them even if they are based on incorrect logic at times, but there is no need for everyone to be rude in their counter-arguments or to go as far as to claim to block him from appearing in threads they read.

To make a comparison that I could be set on fire for, NOBODY criticizes Hans(norgeway) for his differing opinions to everyone else or but people feel free to pile on Sean(Maytag85). I have a deep respect for both!

Post# 970008 , Reply# 41   11/26/2017 at 00:11 (357 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Blocking people

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There is some deep, unchecked elitism that runs rampant on this forum. I disagree with others all the time; but I don't become rude, insult their intelligence or put them on my ignore list. I agree to disagree what ever the reason may be. Somehow people mix up respecting other's feeling/opinions/observations/knowledge as agreeing with them which is not the case.

Post# 970010 , Reply# 42   11/26/2017 at 00:24 (357 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
Eliteism indeed...

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I, too have noticed it. There are times I feel as if my posts are ignored because I'm not one of, shall we say, the popular members, and I've seen it done to others too.

I can see why some have decided to abandon the forum, I stay because there is so much to like about this forum too. The are many smart people here that are glad to help and have gave so much information, these people are why I stay and regularly read.

Post# 970018 , Reply# 43   11/26/2017 at 02:50 (357 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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Well, there really is a difference between Hans and Sean. Hans sounds like a broken record sometimes but his remarks are based on emotion and love for older appliances, the reason why this website excists. So I can understand that. Sean however continues to feed the frontloader vs toploader discussion with false arguments. I understand very well why people like toploaders or frontloaders, but the discussion of which type is better has been beaten to death hundreds of times. Every time I read that discussion I think: Please! Not again! I posted in another thread: And never the twain shall meet. I wish we could bury that discussion and respect eachother's opinion on the toploader vs frontloader preference. But I've pretty much lost my hope that that will happen.

Post# 970019 , Reply# 44   11/26/2017 at 03:13 (357 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
I partially agree with you,

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but the HE vs non HE discussion was going long before Sean showed up in this thread; just look at the title. What did happen when Sean joined the argument was everyone immediately dropped what they were doing and took aim at him. It is certainly fair to counter his claims, but it was done in such a condescending tone that was completely unnecessary and very rude.

Also, when he says things unrelated to this sort of controversy inducing debate, people are still rude to him. For example, when he posted about wanting a Maytag HOH dryer, everyone told him he was foolish to want one. And that is coming from people who themselves own 50 year old appliances. Isn't that the point of the forum?

Post# 970020 , Reply# 45   11/26/2017 at 03:33 (357 days old) by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

I have only two words to say:

Rolling eyes.

Post# 970021 , Reply# 46   11/26/2017 at 03:48 (357 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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And thats the second part of the problem- some people just don't care thats its happening.

@SpeedQueen: Yup, and spot on. I see and feel the same way. But like you the love and appreciation for both old and new keeps me coming back as well as the smart people who post here. Smart people who I think don't get enough credit.

Post# 970026 , Reply# 47   11/26/2017 at 04:30 (357 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        
Just see at as in More room for clothes!

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Look to today's POD: "The center-post problem, Gone for Good!", then see the water savings, either way...

-- Dave

Post# 970091 , Reply# 48   11/26/2017 at 12:37 (357 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I think some of the reaction is due to some people confusing opinions with facts and are trying to jam their personal preferences down our throats as gospel. Those of us who have been doing laundry for more than half a century tend to have a body of knowledge garnered from research and personal experience with more machines than a lot of younger people here have even seen pictures of and might feel that someone making a pronouncement like this is perceived of as someone pissing on our leg and telling us it is raining. Any washing machine that completes a full wash, rinse and spin cycle, or a selected part thereof, and shuts itself off is automatic based on the Greek "automatos" meaning self acting.

The reason not to blast fellow club members out of the water over things like this is that many of us here occupy a place on the "spectrum" and our attractions to appliances and their workings can go along with quirks in expressing our arguments making them sound more dogmatic than they were perhaps intended. There is nothing wrong, however, with demanding evidence for arguments advanced, especially when they seem to provoke a WTH? response.

Post# 970103 , Reply# 49   11/26/2017 at 14:49 (357 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        


I can certainly explain somewhat why some people get blasted and some people don't so much.

Just as a metaphor, but equally likely to trigger kerfuffle: let's say that I claim that I love strawberry pies but hate rhubarb and thus every strawberry rhubarb pie. Someone else comes and says they love rhubarb and strawberry rhubarb pies are their favorite. So far, there's nothing to say. It's personal preference, and that's exactly why I told Sean he's more than welcome to hate frontloaders and love toploaders. It's no weirder than loving coffee vs. disliking tea and vice-versa.

Now, imagine that I went further than that and claimed that the only good pies are strawberry rhubarb pies and anyone would be foolish not to like them and everything else is crap, don't you know that rhubarb is packed with essential vitamins and minerals, including vitamin K, the vitamin B complex and manganese and magnesium, not to mention fiber?

Of course, that would open the door for everyone to claim that rhubarb is *maybe* safe in medicinal amounts for up to 3 months, and can cause stomach and intestinal pain, diarrhea, uterine contractions, muscular weakness, bone loss, potassium loss, irregular heart rhythm and the oxalic acid in rhubarb can cause kidney stones.

The problem is not that Sean likes one thing and dislikes/hates another. The problem is when he confuses "I like this" with "this is the best". No one only likes the best things. Just because I like my car, doesn't make my car the best. Just because Sean hates my car (it's modern), doesn't make it the worst.

Like I told you before, I've seen this cycle many times in the website and way too many times in the internet at large. At first, and to people not paying attention, this is an interaction that is very hard to anyone to distinguish between the person is a troll and the person is in the spectrum, which lots of people here are.

That is one of the reasons I've been trying to gently nudge/persuade Sean into a slightly different mode of interaction, where he can express his preferences and avoid saying things that are vaguely true to blatant falsehoods. Because in the current climate, people here that are tired of being lied to *will* have a very hard time resisting the impulse to respond with scientific proofs.

And it's very hard sometimes to make those not sound condescending, and condescending always makes people sound elitist.

I've known a lot of people here *personally*, for almost two decades now. They are not elitist, quite the contrary.

For example, I do not have *any* high end cars, but I will recognize that some of those are *much* much better than any cars I've had over the years. This is not elitism, this is recognizing truth when one sees it. In fact, an awful lot of things my cars have had over the years, like air conditioning, anti-lock brakes, electronic stability control, all-wheel drive, power brakes, power steering, automatic transmission, air bags, seat belts etc came from high-end cars once.

I say this with sincerity: when in doubt, it's best to *ask* about details, instead of proclaiming things that may not be true. It's also best to phrase things in such a way that they are "I" statements, so, instead of "toploaders are the only authentic automatic washers", one might say "I like/prefer top loading automatic washers".

I hope this helps,
†††-- Paulo.

Post# 970122 , Reply# 50   11/26/2017 at 16:36 (357 days old) by speedqueen (Harrison Twp, Michigan)        
Thanks Paulo,

speedqueen's profile picture
For injecting a bit of sanity here. I do appreciate how you explain your rational. I'm still laughing at the rhubarb pie analogy.

People can counter what Sean said all they want but carrying a disdain into anything he writes on other threads is where I draw the line. I reiterate what I said regarding what others told him when he mentioned wanting a Maytag HOH dryer. They told him he was foolish to wan one and argued with him just to do that, argue.

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