Thread Number: 75821  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Which FL Washer Has Highest Temperature Boost Heater?
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Post# 996558   6/8/2018 at 09:09 by gredmondson (San Francisco, CALIFORNIA)        

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I am looking for the FL washer with the highest temperature boost heater. I was hoping that I could buy a new Miele, but I see that in the U.S. the only model available is small. Quality is the most important issue.

Post# 996559 , Reply# 1   6/8/2018 at 09:28 by appnut (TX)        

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LG and Electrolux models have Sanitary cycles with NSF certification.  Whirlpool has Sanitary cycle but the NSF certification was removed with model updates about 4 or 5 years ago.  And I'm still pretty mad at Whirlpool about that.  Currently there's one Maytag Maxima model with Allergy cycle NSF certification but there are impending model updates for both Whirl[pool and Maytag models.  The separate NSF certifications are NSF P351 for Allergy and NSF P172 for Sanitize.  The difference is Allergy temp was around 131 to 133 and uses more water and Sanitize temp is at least 153 degrees.  I'm fortunate my 2011 Whirlpool Duet had separate NSF certifications for m Allergy cycle as well  as Sanitize wash water temperature options.  My Sanitize wash water temp option is not isolated to one cycle.  I can select Sanitize wash water temperature for Whites, Heavy Duty, Allergy, Bulky Items, Sheets/Linens, Kids Wear, and Cotton Blankets cycles.  There are those who will make fun of all those cycles, but me being me, I've studied all those cycles and they each have different tumble patters, different tumble and soak/pause patters, and use different fill levels. 

Post# 996570 , Reply# 2   6/8/2018 at 12:05 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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George, if you're in a hurry, and per Bob's information, I suggest going with Electrolux.  We had a full size Frigidaire Affinity, which was made by Electrolux, and while its customary balancing acts prior to spin were often aggravating, it cleaned well.


I opted to use the Maytag Neptune stacking pair that was left behind in our new house, and while the washer gets the job done faster than the Affinity, the actual wash (tumbling) action isn't nearly as effective as that of the Affinity.  It's a trade-off I'm willing to accept, but with the Electrolux you'll get the on-board heater along with excellent wash action.

Post# 996591 , Reply# 3   6/8/2018 at 17:13 by gredmondson (San Francisco, CALIFORNIA)        

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I went to a local appliance store where the salesman told me that Maytag will raise the water temperature 20 -- 25 degrees, that LG is made to last 5- 7 years, that Whirlpool is pretty much like Maytag, but Maytag is built to last longer, that Electrolux has a poor repair record along with LG, which he said is nearly impossible to get repaired in the Bay Area. Whom to believe???

Post# 996593 , Reply# 4   6/8/2018 at 17:48 by appnut (TX)        

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George, member JKBFF is an appliance salesman in North Dakota.  He recently posted Duets & Maximas are pretty rock solid.  They don't sell many LGs and Samsung because that's what they seem to have to replace.  Member Combo52 has been a repairman for 40+ years.  Aside fomo Speed Queen (which doesn't have a heater), I think his next recommendation is Whirlpool or Maytag front loaders.  They both have upgraded memberships as you do, you could also contact them via the private message system too.


Me, if I had to replace my Duet, it would be Maytag or Whirlpool.


Also, on WP products, if you select the heaviest soil level, that allows more time for the water to heat.  The Steam for Stains option forces the heater to energize on cycles that it's an option and not used by default.  That's part of the flexibility I like about WP related front loaders. 

Post# 996602 , Reply# 5   6/8/2018 at 20:07 by rp2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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If I were in the market, I'd go with Maytag or Whirlpool too, even though the Affinity only needed its pump replaced this past December after nine years of service.  I made that repair myself.


The only reason I went with Frigidaire/Electrolux back in 2008 was because their full size FL machine had the same footprint as a standard top loader, and I had space limitations in the laundry room.  Otherwise I'd have brought my Duet pair with me.


I would absolutely steer clear of any Korean makes.

Post# 996618 , Reply# 6   6/9/2018 at 06:33 by logixx (Germany)        

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Asko has a 240V washer that's 2.71 cu.ft. Don't know how hot the Sanitize cycle gets, though.


Post# 996630 , Reply# 7   6/9/2018 at 09:48 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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for most domestic machines, it doesn't seem to be a great increase in temps....

I was considering a heater model, but only to find out the best most could do was 140, luckily my water heater is set at 180....

I was hoping for temps close to a boil least 180/190....

some like the temps that a built in heater give.....I can't see the extra cost of having each his own

Post# 996633 , Reply# 8   6/9/2018 at 10:18 by Johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Forgive me but are residential water heaters able to sustain set temps that high?
Isn’t that dangerous for both the heater, users and appliances?

Post# 996638 , Reply# 9   6/9/2018 at 11:29 by appnut (TX)        

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Martin, I live in an all-electric house. I keep in my water heater at 1:20. My dishwasher and my washing machine raise water temps to over 150 degrees when I need it. It saves me a lot of money! Normal hot water temperatures in the washer of 125 130 degrees as well as dishwasher of 132 144 normal is more than adequate as far as I'm concerned.

Post# 996643 , Reply# 10   6/9/2018 at 12:30 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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yeah, I have one PowerVent gas water heater, and it has notched settings that allow temps up to 180...

all bathroom faucets are scald-safe units....those are set to give a luke warm in the master bath, I bypass those set temps...

even my regular vent gas water heater allows temps up to 160.....

I would say that for a single person lower temps would suffice, but not really the case for me, as when it was just us two, gas is cheap enough to allow me to run temps that high....

and there are times when running several machines, a dishwasher, and having up to 10 kids, the on-demand is a lowest temp, to mix a warm bath, you would need 60% hot to 40% cold...but at the highest setting, you may only need 30% hot water to a 70% cold.....I have never run into a case of running out of hot water when there is a high demand...

washing in hot or true warm temps, has proven to keep my machines running at top condition.....we all have seen the effects of washing in cooler to cold temps does to a machine...

I was never wild about having an electric water heater, but when we did, it seemed best to add a timer to it....but you did have to work around when the hot water I could see where heaters in machines set availability.....I could see an internal heater may be of help...

Post# 996729 , Reply# 11   6/10/2018 at 10:18 by UncleDave (California)        

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Pretty sure you'll find the miele's will attain and sustain a hotter temp than anything on the market today- 194

Sustaining is the trick as hot water from a tank starts cooling on its way to the washer - we do a load per day of filthy animal towels used for dog grooming on hot 60C (140f - the magic number) - the washer itself disinfects everything without bleach.

It has two setting beyond that up to 90C I rarely use.....

I went from a huge top loading maytag to a miele 1215 and worried mightily about size with myself - my wife 2 teenagers and 3 dogs in a so cal house with a swimming pool.

Much to my surprise the miele would actually clean more clothes better than the top loader- and spin dry them to a much less moisture % before they go into a dryer.

My clothes also last a lot longer than with an agitator arm type top loader.

I can wash and entire queen sized bed in one shot with 6 shams.


Post# 996730 , Reply# 12   6/10/2018 at 10:20 by UncleDave (California)        

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actually looks like its even hotter just checked the manual - 95 is where it will go.


Post# 996770 , Reply# 13   6/10/2018 at 18:11 by henene4 (Germany)        

The hottest a Miele home model at 120V goes is 75C 167F, but only on Sanitize with a reduced load IIRC, normal goes to 60C 140F. Those start at 1499$, service is horrible in the US probably.

Their 208-240V 2 phase washing machines from their professional range listed on the home site (those should still be sold to private households) go up 203F still and have probably a lifespan equal to a SQ. But AFAIK these have "service intervals" which are for mainting the machine in a commercial enviroment, but you probably could reset these on your own.
But those are about 3700$.

Compairing Asko USA manuals to the Australian once, the maximum preset is 60C / 140F and the listed usages are the same as in the American manual.

Electrolux has NSF certification on the 500 and 600 series plus the compacts.
But keep in mind that Electrolux allows for Sanitation on 3 cycles (Heavy Duty, Whites and Normal). These do not limit the load size which should be noted!
Also, the SmartBoost system seems to be pretty capable by what I've red on the EU compact versions with that system.

If you are handy checking for a Miele W1xxx series might be an option, but they still run at high voltage!

Post# 996819 , Reply# 14   6/11/2018 at 07:52 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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Asko's heat up to 205F.  Miele Little Giants heat on up there too.

Post# 996845 , Reply# 15   6/11/2018 at 12:10 by dylanmitchell (San Diego, CA)        
Dedicated tankless water heater for washing machine?

How about a dedicated tankless water heater? Or dedicated small tank water heater? And set them to a hight temp.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO dylanmitchell's LINK

Post# 996847 , Reply# 16   6/11/2018 at 12:12 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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I have a 240v receptacle where the stacking Neptunes were before I relocated them to the basement (the Neptunes operate on 120v because the dryer is gas).  I can definitely see a Miele in my future if I should decide to put laundry back upstairs if I ever get tired of going up and down the stairs to the basement.

Post# 996851 , Reply# 17   6/11/2018 at 14:14 by cad55ken (Dallas)        
Miele - Little Giants are what you are looking for

Miele Little Giants will fill the bill.

I went through a Kenmore 'Direct Drive' Top loader, 2 sets of Asko and then finally found the Miele showroom in Dallas.
Little Giants are not cheap by any means - but they are heavy and very well built. They run on 220 and have the hot water booster you are looking for. I run Queen size quilts with no balancing issues. I wish I would have known about them before I bought Asko.
If you have any questions, please ask.


Post# 996949 , Reply# 18   6/12/2018 at 10:58 by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)        

If you want bigger capacity than the Miele Little Giants, I wonder if you could get them to sell you the Octoplus machines? There's the PW5080 (8kg) washer & matching dryer (also available as a single stacked unit), and the bigger PW5105 (10kg) version (no stacker or matching dryer available).

Other options might be a commercial FL from Alliance (Unimac UYN series) or Whirlpool (ADC)?

All likely to be very expensive!

I really don't understand why America, with its hot-fill machines, can't have a 90-95c boil wash. This side of the pond, it's cold fill only, but we get 95c anyway. That said, my Miele struggles to heat to that level when I've filled it right up using the extra rinse cycle to begin with, so I've taken to filling it with hot using a spare drain hose fixed to the kitchen hot tap and stuck in the Miele's powder drawer...

Post# 996953 , Reply# 19   6/12/2018 at 11:09 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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I'm all for people having choice, but as to why very high temps (over 140F) have never taken off the in the USA, I think they're just not needed to get most laundry clean if you're using a top detergent.  Even clothes that would benefit (like white socks) could never take that kind of heat without being damaged anyway.


If someone is washing shop or cleaning rags I could see where it could be useful though.





Post# 996955 , Reply# 20   6/12/2018 at 11:34 by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)        

I use my 95C cycle all the time for stuff like underwear, towels and bedding, as well as heavily-sweated-into clothing... I could not cope with a machine that only heated to 60C or so! Good detergents help, but to really sanitise stuff that could have nasty bacteria etc in it, you need an Imperial shit-ton of heat! Even 95c is a compromise, a sop to the Euro eco-police, the old AEGs, Bauknechts, Brockes and Constructas did a full rolling-boil 100c... what I'd give to find one of those!

Post# 996957 , Reply# 21   6/12/2018 at 11:39 by gredmondson (San Francisco, CALIFORNIA)        

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Thanks, guys, for the comments. Keep 'em coming!
In the US, only the smaller Miele is available, and I am pretty sure my son, who asked for me to choose a new washer, wants a larger size. He and his wife are remodeling most of the first floor of their house, including the laundry room. They currently have a Bosch Nexxt, but that model is also no longer available in the US. I often do their laundry.
I am a big fan of very hot water after having a Miele 1203 (I thin that is the right model number).

Post# 996958 , Reply# 22   6/12/2018 at 12:00 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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I'm afraid AEG's didn't do a real boil wash. Constructa held a patent on it, Bauknecht had to pay for it. Real boil washes didn't always mean clean laundry, Constructa machines weren't spectacular at performing. Other factors weigh in too.

Post# 996980 , Reply# 23   6/12/2018 at 17:13 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Have said this before, an am doing so again

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Not even hospital/healthcare linens are "boiled" routinely any longer.

Besides the energy costs there is also fact it has been long known such high heat washing increases wear on textiles.

Current accepted standard is either 65C wash held for ten minutes. Or 71C for at least three.

As for NSF standard:

"The protocol does not evaluate the water or steam temperature per se,
but it evaluates the ability of the sanitization cycle to perform
effectively. The sanitization cycle of a washer is dependent on the
combination of many variables (i.e. – drum size, drum shape, heater
wattage- if applicable, cycle time, cycle temperature, tumbling action,
etc.) These variables can change from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer as long as they perform effectively.”

Meaning that designation is no guarantee of "boil washing" temperatures. How can it when few to any washing machines sold in USA have the power to flash heat water fast enough to truly quickly sanitize.

Post# 996984 , Reply# 24   6/12/2018 at 18:11 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

People mention different things to explain why Americans did not get cozy with very high temperature wash: we have 120V as standard (240V outlets are not found everywhere, even when people have a single home and could pay for someone to install it), hot and cold fill hookups are usually available, people are afraid that the very high temps will damage the fabrics/garments, etc.

But the biggest factor, in my opinion, is a very simple one: people here are addicted to chlorine bleach -- that's why most people say 95C is unnecessary. Yes, a very high end detergent is helpful, but we did not have that until recently -- until Wisk tried to introduce tabs, Euro detergents were *much* better than our top-of-the-line Tide and Wisk. P&G only improved Tide substantially when Henkel entered the market with Persil.

So, until very recently, *anyone*, even people using chlorine bleach, would immediately notice a *huge* improvement after washing with detergents from Europe (Persil, Ariel, etc) and 95C (205F). The *other* thing that is common in this case, is that I've often heard people complain about "stains that came back after boiling!", that is, stuff that had been "gone" for years, say, a chocolate stain, that is now very faint, but noticeable. The problem is that now that the fabric is *whiter* than it's ever been, you notice the stain that even bleach could not remove. Once you wash the fabric at 95C a couple of times more, they'll disappear too.

And, I'd like to point out again, that bleach (even chlorine bleach) doesn't really "clean" the stains -- it removes the color. It can denature some proteins, but it's not a miracle worker. That's exactly why people who murder someone and "clean" the crime scene with bleach often end up in jail anyway. The color is gone, but there are plenty of tests that not only test for bleach presence, but also for the compounds that are still left behind.

The other thing I can say, to *both* camps, the European people who don't understand why/how we can live without "boil washes" *and* the American contingent who don't understand why/how European people don't turn their clothes into rags by boiling them: there is no wrong or right here. Clothes are basically manufactured to withstand the way local people wash them. And in any case, there is not a lot of difference between bleaching the laundry with chlorine every time and washing the clothes at 95C every time.

People who lived in both places (or used both methods) understand this very readily, it's not a hard concept to grasp. And in any case, the best way to get clean clothes and gentle wear/care is *still* to use the proper kinds and amounts of enzymes anyway.

Like the soap opera actress in Women at the Verge of a Nervous Breakdown said in the "advertisement", her son the murderer never went to jail because she washed all his clothes with OMO... :-P ;-)

Until people understand that, they'll be fighting two unequal battles: people who want to finish their laundry sooner, and use up to 140F/60C and chlorine bleach, versus people who want a slightly whiter/cleaner laundry and wait 2 hours for a 95C wash with no bleach or oxygen bleach.

      -- Paulo.

Post# 996989 , Reply# 25   6/12/2018 at 18:24 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Something else have said previously

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Boiling as routine part of domestic laundry went out when fully or even semi-automatic washing machines became the norm.

Yes, you still needed hot water. Also "yes" some housewives or whoever still chose to boil certain things such as baby's nappies, used handkerchiefs, etc...

But remember prime reason for all that hot to boiling water (aside from perceived sanitation) was use of soap as detergent. Quite simply unless kept in solution (warm to hot or even elevated temperatures) soap will congeal in textiles trapping not only that residue, but scum, dirt and muck as well. Hence sooner or later you ended up with tattle-tale grey or yellow laundry. Boiling opens fabric weave allowing whatever to be passed out, rather than trapped.

Chlorine bleach is/was a godsend in that it whitened, sanitized and *removed stains* (by decolorizing), but then as now commercial and domestic laundry manuals gave same advice; laundry that was properly washed shouldn't need routine chlorine bleaching. This regardless of what Clorox and other brands of the stuff would have us believe.

Post# 997034 , Reply# 26   6/13/2018 at 03:29 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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European detergents weren't always as good as they are nowadays ofcourse. That was the reason boil washes were done. In the sixties a lot of European detergents didn't contain that much enzymes. That's why Biotex came on the market in some countries, a special pre-wash (Biotex blue) and pre-soak detergent (Biotex green) were brought on the market. Standard in the sixties were to pre-wash with Biotex and wash with a regular detergent (my mother used Dixan).

In the seventies the energy crisis came around and on most European washing machines the E-button was introduced, a button that lowered the temperature to 60, 67 or there abouts and also prolonged the main wash. That's when washing at lower temperatures started. I know only a few washing machine enthousiasts that still wash at 95 degrees celcius, most other people wash at lower temperatures.

Post# 997035 , Reply# 27   6/13/2018 at 04:53 by henene4 (Germany)        
Miele OctoPlus

They won't sell these to US private customers as they do not meet domestic safety regulations.

And honestly: Don't think you need a bigger machine. It fits basicly any size pillow, most comforters, about 14 pounds of laundry.
Unless you have a thick king size comforter that needs weekly processing, you'll get along more then fine.

Post# 997036 , Reply# 28   6/13/2018 at 05:12 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Energy Crisis In Europe At Least

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Spurred invention of oxygen bleach activator TAED, which allowed "boil wash" results at 40c:

Sodium perborate was the oxygen bleaching agent of choice on both sides of the pond then (Persil just that *PER*borate and *SIl*icate, along with soap and other substances. By 1959 the soap went, but sodium perborate remained.

Sodium perborate is cheaper than sodium percarbonate which probably is one reason why it was so often used. However recently EU has banned borates for laundry so everyone is switching over to sodium percarbonate. That oxygen bleach is known for "cold water" power and technically doesn't need an activator, but many products choose to add TAED anyway.

In the USA P&G developed NOBS first found in Biz (when it switched from a pre-soak to oxygen bleach "booster". It later was found in Oxydol then finally Tide with Bleach. It was TWB that killed off eventually both Oxydol and Biz as P&G sold both off.

NOBS has the advantages of working better in the usually more dilute conditions of American laundry (all those top loading washing machines). It also works well in the shorter cycles and lower temps (since American top loaders obviously don't heat water, "hot" is what comes out of the taps), found with top loaders.

Interestingly in EU the patents on TAED have long expired, so you find activated oxygen bleach products not just from Henkel, but many other companies as well.

OTOH P&G has kept NOBS patents on lock down ever since their discovery. As such the only laundry products (and IIRC dishwasher detergents such as Cascade) that have activated bleaching systems based on that substance all come from Proctor and Gamble.

Ecolab has a solid oxygen bleach product and have some in my stash. It however is TAED based, not NOBS, which gets around P&G.

Post# 997037 , Reply# 29   6/13/2018 at 05:48 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Don`t patents generally expire after 20 years ?

Post# 997039 , Reply# 30   6/13/2018 at 06:18 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Yes, they do

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While yes, the original patent does expire in twenty years; inventor can file again claiming "improvement", which starts the clock all over again. Well assuming the new patent is granted.

Over the years P&G not only have improved their activated bleaching system, but the detergent powders it goes into as well.

Thus it isn't just the bleaching activator someone would need; but a formula for a powdered detergent that incorporated same *and* performed same or better as TWB.

Think this is original patent:

Then came another in

From 1991:


It isn't just the bleaching activator per se; but how things all come together to make a detergent that will perform as expected consistently.

Here is MSDS for the old Biz (by P&G)

If you click onto "Color Safe Bleach....." you get a listing of other activated oxygen bleach detergents/bleaches; all are P&G brands.

Here is the MSDS for a version of TWB powder:

If you click on "Nonanoyloxy Benzene Sulfonate", the only products that have it are all from P&G (Tide).

P&G's (2008) purchase agreement:

Post# 997074 , Reply# 31   6/13/2018 at 17:04 by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)        

We still don't understand the environmental effects enzymes have when released into natural ecosystems, and they are a major cause of skin allergies. I simply couldn't use enzyme detergents if I wanted to, as I and all my family are severely allergic to them and suffer nasty skin rashes if we come into contact with enzyme-washed fabrics. The best solution is simply oxygen bleach and plenty of heat - and time. 65C for only 10 minutes, or 71C for three?! Hopeless!

...and of course, Which? here in the UK found that most machines don't get anywhere near the advertised temperatures. The worst offender was an AEG that peaked at 27C on a "60C" cycle!

Post# 997077 , Reply# 32   6/13/2018 at 18:11 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Enzymes in laundry detergents/products

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Are not generally cause of skin or other allergies.

Largest risk are to those employed in manufacturing and or those coming in contact with product dust or undiluted state. Hence the warnings on packets about breathing in dust or allowing the stuff to come into contact with skin.....

Outside of UK the concept of "non-bio" laundry detergents or whatever largely does not exist. That or those without said substances are either MOL or BOL products, and or perhaps designed to appeal to a certain segment of market.

Even detergents such as Dreft, Fairy and others designed for baby laundry contain enzymes. They are actually rather powerful at that; but also are made to rinse cleanly to lessen chances of skin irritation.

If enzymes were truly a major cause of skin irritation there would be statistically more cases reported; which there isn't.

What may be mistaken as an allergy to laundry product enzymes can be and often is related to other substances. Fragrances, types of surfactants used, preservatives and other things are far more likely to cause skin issues.

Post# 997104 , Reply# 33   6/14/2018 at 03:35 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I checked my Miele last time I did a 190F wash with an infrared thermometer and it registered 196F. I know I can feel the heat radiating from the front when it's washing.

Post# 997106 , Reply# 34   6/14/2018 at 05:26 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Rarely use 95c these days

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Found the Hygiene cycle on my washer which holds 60c from cold for 12 - 15 minutes it works perfectly with Persil non bio and gets white cotton clean as boiling without the shrinkage and the creasing so its a win win for me :)

Post# 997122 , Reply# 35   6/14/2018 at 08:40 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
P&G's 'Fairy' Laundry Detergents

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Do not contain enzymes of any form. The clue is on the packet... "Non-Bio".

This detergent has always been so, and was seen as an answer to Persil Non-Bio.

I have heard of folk with eczema - with personal experience of one such person - who could tolerate Persil Non-Bio, yet came up in a rash with Fairy Non-Bio. So this might suggest that another component in the detergent is causing the problem, either fragrances, or the surfactants themselves.

Or perhaps P&G's formulations just 'stick' too well to fabrics - even through the rinses?

Post# 997141 , Reply# 36   6/14/2018 at 12:09 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        
Had Never Heard of Non-Bio

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before reading this forum.  My first thought was it meant non-biodegradable, LOL.


How did this become an issue overseas and not in the USA?  Seems like the USA has more than its share of worriers about everything else.


Sort of surprised no company here has tried to make it an issue for marketing advantage.

Post# 997155 , Reply# 37   6/14/2018 at 15:00 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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There are so many non-bio options in the USA. Just think of the BOL brands like Sun, Xtra and so on. Only difference is that UK manufacturers immediately seized the opportunity to charge the same prize from the worriers for a cheaper product through clever marketing.

Enzymes today are generally considered safe for the skin when used under normal conditions.
Then again very high levels of protease can indeed trigger skin reactions.
Thinking of how prevalent twin tubs were in the UK at the advent of bio-detergents, their hit and miss rinsing action in the spinner tub, this could explain problems with enzymes.

Post# 997164 , Reply# 38   6/14/2018 at 15:47 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
As one stated

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Yes, there are detergents without enzymes here in USA, but they tend to be MOL or BOL products. X-tra liquid is really nothing more than colored water and some scent masquerading as detergent. In all cases however depending upon one's needs or purposes such products may suffice perfectly well.

One of my favourite products for bed linens is "Linen Wash", which cleans remarkably well. But then again one changes such linen frequently and don't eat four course meals in bed.

Bio vs. Non-Bio in regard to UK has been discussed here in group frequently:

Post# 997169 , Reply# 39   6/14/2018 at 16:11 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Speaking Of Xtra

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Was gifted a (damaged and half empty) bottle by manager of local supermarket (they were going to rubbish), so guess will find out how well it performs.

Ordinarily wouldn't go near with a barge pole, but since it was *free*. *LOL*

Post# 997192 , Reply# 40   6/14/2018 at 19:17 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        
Break the Stain Barrier!

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Thanks for the link Laundress.


That made me curious about when enzymes were added to Tide, and surprisingly P&G's website has a timeline of the Tide product and it was way back in 1968!  Tide XK as it was called, then later just renamed Tide.


Another interesting fact from the timeline...Tide liquid wasn't introduced until 1984.



Post# 997197 , Reply# 41   6/14/2018 at 21:08 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
There long has been liquid laundry detergents

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In US market, Wisk comes to mind, but it never really bothered P&G. Tide still was queen of the laundry room.

Then came Dynamo in the 1970's (one still has the measuring cup that came with samples distributed to every door in our town), and also ERA liquid detergents. Both were pretty good performers. But things got even more interesting by early 1980's when Era upped their game to include enzymes (protein gets out protein).

The energy crisis of 1970's also caused many housewives to cut back on all that hot water washing and move to warm or (gasp) cold water. For both of which liquid detergents (especially with enzymes) gave slightly better performance than most powders.

In any event P&G had to respond, so we got Tide liquid. Who knew fast forward to now that format would come to dominate the Tide brand. You have to look hard to find any Tide powder at local supermarkets. Many only carry the liquid versions.

Post# 997198 , Reply# 42   6/14/2018 at 21:29 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
American Water Heaters

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IIRC highest most storage tank types (electric or gas) today will go is about 150F or maybe 160F. But there are models which will give 180F water temps:

Well into the 1950's and perhaps later Rheem, Ruud and other makers of water heaters produced models that produced 180F water entirely, and or were dual temps. That is you could send the hotter water to kitchen and laundry area, but just "hot" water to taps in bathrooms, showers, etc...

The idea of course was to have a constant steady supply of near boiling water for all that hot water laundry, and dishwashing with automatic dishwashers (who then largely either lacked internal heaters, or only used them to maintain, not really boost water temps).

Those who get their hot water by a coil (indirect) off boiler (such as for steam heating) can and often do get hot water at temps at or >150. During winter when boilers are on for heat our tap hot water is around 150F to a bit over 160F. The vintage GE Mobile Maid loves it!

At the Biltmore Estate in North Carolina hot water was supplied at first (IIRC)from coils off huge boilers. Water for bathrooms and other taps was tempered; however a set of pipes took high temperature hot water to the kitchens and laundry.


Post# 997201 , Reply# 43   6/14/2018 at 21:52 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

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It would be so interesting to have a modern, standardized test of all these detergents over the years.  Seeing the effects of adding enzymes, the removal of phosphates, etc.


About the only stains that plague me today are salad dressing stains on shirts.  If I catch them right away and make some pre-treatment paste (using Tide w/Bleach powder and water) they will usually (but not always) come out.  Sometimes a second treatment will do the trick.


If I miss them and they go through the dryer it's too late.

Post# 997202 , Reply# 44   6/14/2018 at 22:00 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Oil Stains

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Nothing beats vintage Fels Naptha soap bars.

Yes, one knows naptha and or Stoddard solvent are nasty things to have about; but they are matchless for getting out oil based stains. Well there are other things, but they are far more nasty (kerosene, benzene, etc...)

Another trick is if you spill/get oil onto something; sprinkle a bit of corn starch, talcum powder, baby powder, or fuller's earth onto it at once/soon as possible. Rub in and allow to sit for a period, then brush off. These substances act as an absorbent and will draw the oil out of fabrics.

If does not work first time place a piece of brown or blotting paper over stained area, then *lighty* run a warm iron over oil marked area; then quickly apply the absorbent as above.

Post# 997210 , Reply# 45   6/15/2018 at 02:21 by RP2813 (The Big Blue Bubble)        

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A couple of questions have come to mind.


Where does "Drive" detergent fit into the enzyme time line?  Weren't enzymes the selling point for that brand?


Also, would products like (defunct?) K2R and other spot lifters have contained nothing but talcum or corn starch or other substances mentioned above? 


Dave has had poor dexterity since his stroke, and food stains are common on whatever he happens to be wearing, top or bottom.  Laundering his tee shirts always involves the time consuming chore of pre-treatment.   I'm going to start keeping the corn starch within easy reach of the dinner table.  For some items, like chocolate ice cream, I make him wear a bib.  Those stains have proven impossible to launder out no matter what I do to pre-treat.


As for original Wisk, I wish someone could get a hold of that formula and start producing it again.  It's my favorite detergent scent by far, and it was quite effective at cleaning.  I'd pay a premium for it.  "Wisk around the collar beats ring around the collar, every time!"

Post# 997213 , Reply# 46   6/15/2018 at 04:04 by Rolls_rapide (Scotland, UK)        
Drive detergent

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We had Drive powder in the 70s.

It seemed not to mention enzymes, but made a big thing of it being a 'solvent' detergent. I presume they meant the individual surfactants in the formulation.


Post# 997216 , Reply# 47   6/15/2018 at 04:12 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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Even before I got European front loaders I had good results with Tide with bleach.  I used to wear white shorts alot and it would keep them white.  Once I dropped some tomato grease (you know, the red grease that comes from cooking something with meat and tomatoes together) on my white shorts.  Tide actually took it all out with no trace.  And those shorts were washed in my mother's faithful Maytag washer!

Post# 997219 , Reply# 48   6/15/2018 at 04:41 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Is still out there, and sold all over the world. Have seen it in France, and IIRC you can find it in Australia as well.

Stuff like similar products (Goddard's spray spot remover) contained perc (dry cleaning fluid) which state of California has branded a possible cancer causing agent. This got some retailers in trouble for selling and soon everyone pulled it from shelves.

The new formula replaced perc with other solvents, but silica is still there and what causes the white mark when spray dries.

Original formula Wisk detergent:

Loved the scent but the stuff caused way to much foaming in mother's Whirlpool top loader. Tried it again later after moving on one's own in a front loader in laundromat with equally excessive foaming.

IIRC Wish was heavy on anionic surfactants which are great for cleaning oily dirt, but very high foaming. Not an oil or suds suppressant (like Dash) in sight.

Drive detergent:

Had forgotten all about Drive! Introduced in 1960's IIRC and was an early enzyme containing laundry detergent.

By 1970's even Bold got into the enzyme act. With Gladys Kravitz no less.

Tide XK - Notice that box still gives directions for using Tide to wash dishes, floors, and other things around the house. How many housewives ended up with hands eaten red raw from washing dishes in a detergent that contained protein attacking enzymes.


Post# 997231 , Reply# 49   6/15/2018 at 07:56 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Back on topic.....

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Which Miele washer did OP examine?

The new W1 series claims nearly 18lb laundry capacity. That is just about what SQ and other larger size front loaders are rated.

Standard advice in these matters is for one to take an average load, or whatever large things are wanted to be laundered routinely to a Miele showroom and see what is what.

Unlike the discontinued 4XXX series washers the new W1 are like Miele's of old, that is they are designed to have tub fully loaded for "normal cottons/linens" cycle.

Post# 997266 , Reply# 50   6/15/2018 at 18:31 by logixx (Germany)        
Load capacity

logixx's profile picture
Am not surprised to see that Miele went back to allowing the full volume the drum to be used. Someone posted the Normal cycle duration on Houzz: almost two hours. Don't know what the times on the 4xxx washers were but extending them would have probably increased capacity as well.

Post# 997269 , Reply# 51   6/15/2018 at 18:56 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
IIRC Those 4XXX Washers Had More Issues Than Capacity

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Quite frankly they seemed rather like a half-baked experiment that Miele quickly became ashamed of, hence their rather rapid discontinuance from market.

Internal flooding/leaking which triggered systems that turned machine off until things "dried out". Rear bearings going on washers barely one or two years old. Dispenser drawers that kept popping out, and so it went.

Main knock against the 4XXX washers was many saw at once build quality wasn't up to Miele standards. That and you could actually fit more into the 3XXX series washers even though they were supposedly smaller in capacity. This because unlike the 4xxx the former could be loaded to full drum volume for "normal" wash loads, rather than half to three quarters.

Post# 997307 , Reply# 52   6/16/2018 at 05:59 by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I know my w1986 holds quite a lot of laundry.  We have a king bed and I can wash my 100% cotton quilts in it just fine, one at a time of course.  Amazing to me how much more it holds than the Asko does.

Post# 997518 , Reply# 53   6/17/2018 at 23:33 by cad55ken (Dallas)        
Miele OctoPlus

Miele Octoplus units CAN BE purchased in Dallas. Miele Design Center - in the design district.

My Little Giants are great. No bleach required with the sustained temperature.
There has not been a stain of any kind that will not come out.
For heavy grease stains I spray Formula 409 on and throw it in - Tide and Oxy Clean - works wonders.

This forum is the best - you learn so much from all the participants.

Post# 997553 , Reply# 54   6/18/2018 at 06:41 by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA)        

I'll believe you can buy Octoplus for home use in US if you order them AND the order actually gets through Miele Professional in Princeton.

Post# 997555 , Reply# 55   6/18/2018 at 06:45 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, the Netherlands)        

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The Miele W1986 is based on the little giants. It's deeper than regular household Miele's and also deeper than most Asko's. However the Asko Logic series is deeper too and also has a bigger capacity.

Post# 997708 , Reply# 56   6/19/2018 at 12:20 by wft2800 (Leatherhead, Surrey)        

Why would the Octoplus machines not meet residential standards? OK, I think I'm right in saying they've got no door boot, so perhaps a bit of risk of kids' fingers getting stuck, but that doesn't stop the Askos being sold? All a bit odd IMO.

I also think it's rather a shame they discontinued the W6073... simple, tough machines that I've read a lot of remote Australian farms have, as they can't afford to call out an engineer from the nearest town 400 miles away in the event of a failure...

Post# 998486 , Reply# 57   6/26/2018 at 21:16 by Sudsomatic (Indiana)        

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I've diligently been trying to contact Mrs. Anne Cuneo about Tide XK to no avail. Apparently she is no longer taking calls.


** I love those vintage commercials laughing**

Post# 998493 , Reply# 58   6/26/2018 at 22:54 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Assuming Same Person

launderess's profile picture
One of the Cuneo boys recently passed on:

Other than that Mrs. Cuneo seems quite busy with the Harvard Women's club.

Post# 998494 , Reply# 59   6/26/2018 at 23:01 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
If near the border

launderess's profile picture
Costco stores in Canada do sell the Miele Octoplus washing machines.

However that being said if you smuggle the thing down south, you're on your own. Miele North America (residential) won't touch the thing with a barge pole IIRC.

In fact if one has things correctly the two are supposed to have nothing to do with each other. When having hard time finding Persil in USA contacted Miele in Canada who said they had tons, but were not allowed to ship to United States. Ditto when looking for W1070 parts.

Post# 998611 , Reply# 60   6/27/2018 at 19:28 by Sudsomatic (Indiana)        
It's a shame about the boy...

sudsomatic's profile picture

Well Mrs Cuneo does seem a very busy lady, I guess I can forgive her transgressions.





Post# 998612 , Reply# 61   6/27/2018 at 19:32 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
I Double Dog Dare You

launderess's profile picture
To head up to next Harvard Women's Club event and ask "aren't you that Mrs. Cuneo from Tide commercial?". *LOL*

Post# 998646 , Reply# 62   6/28/2018 at 04:02 by Sudsomatic (Indiana)        

sudsomatic's profile picture

Well...... I'd have to find an XK box on eBay first. I mean I couldn't come away without something autographed.



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