Thread Number: 76152  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
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Post# 999893   7/10/2018 at 07:16 by peteski50 (New York)        

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My Mom just purchased KDFE104HWH which I know is a good dishwasher - even though this has great reviews I am not looking forward to the long long cycles! I cant encourage her to stop washing everything before loading so that is really a waste!
I will probably tell her to use the Prowash cycle which is automatic but even if the dishes are almost clean when they go into the dishwasher it is still a very long cycle! Does anyone know if this one operates utilizing one wash arm at a time?
I sell these at home depot but I wouldn't buy it their because the delivery is horrible! So we went to PC where I used to work and they took off the 50 delivery charge! Anyone have any comments!


Post# 999895 , Reply# 1   7/10/2018 at 07:39 by appnut (TX)        

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Use 1 hour wash cycle. No lolonger cycle needed. Alternates levels.

Post# 999896 , Reply# 2   7/10/2018 at 07:49 by peteski50 (New York)        
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does the 1 hr cycle alternate the wash arms also? I have heard conflicting comments!

Post# 999905 , Reply# 3   7/10/2018 at 09:00 by appnut (TX)        

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My KA produced Kenmore Elite alternates.

Post# 999917 , Reply# 4   7/10/2018 at 12:29 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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I just got a few levels up from that model.
Here's my tips:

Your mom, if she's worried about water consumption, should use the Normal cycle with regular heat dry (no Extended Dry) with no options. It's actually not that long a cycle. Maybe 90min at most.
Normal only uses 2.5-3.5gal of water, and the single heat dry is only 10min.

If those extra 30-40min are too extruciating, then yes, you can use the Express Wash cycle, which will wash and dry in 55-60min.
But will use a fixed 6.2gal of water.

All cycles alternate the wash arms.
And if your mom really does pre-rinse as well as you say, there's a good chance (depending on her water chemistry) that she will NEVER have to touch her filter cup.
I've cleaned mine once in the few months I've had the new KA, and that's because it got gunked up from a fiber supplement drink.

Post# 999918 , Reply# 5   7/10/2018 at 12:46 by peteski50 (New York)        
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Thanks for posting John - I remember reading a few weeks back about your posting about your KA but couldn't remember who! Do you find that the Prowash cycle runs longer than the Normal cycle? Also I think the last rinse is heated to 140 regardless of settings? On yours with the black strip in front does it give a cycle indicator? No offence to anyone that likes these newer DW's but to me the Hobart KA's and whirlpool power clean were the best!

Post# 999925 , Reply# 6   7/10/2018 at 15:47 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Hi again Pete!
Actually, I did not got the one with the black front control panel.
I almost did but I got a traditional stainless bar handle, with the multi-colored indicator LED.
But, the black panel units WILL show progress in the style of tick (- - -) marks. Each mark equalling aprox. 25min. It will also show text stages like: Washing, Drying, Clean, Heated Dry, Sanitized.

As for ProWash, at least with my load styles, it will usually run the same amount of time, maybe a little longer if it adds a purge or pre-rinse.

From what I've read, standard temps are 105F main wash, unless Hi-Temp wash is selected. Hi-Temp is 140F main wash and 140F final rinse.
I think standard Final Rinse, at least on Normal is 130F.

Sani-Rinse is 155F Final Rinse.

One note about the drying, which did catch me off guard.
The stainless interior is so efficient at drying, that Regular Heat dry is only 10-15min! Really cuts down on cycle time.
And it DOES do a decent job. Only plastics might still be moist.
Extended Heat Dry does a much better job on plastics, and that lasts from 40-60min.
On all dry cycles there WILL be lots of condensation on the stainless tank walls, but dishes will be actually dry.

Over these few months Pete, I've been very very happy with my first KitchenAid. It is literally the best performing, and nicest dishwasher I've ever had.
ONE caveat, the upper rack rails are a tad janky. But that's the only single issue I've had.

Post# 999926 , Reply# 7   7/10/2018 at 16:00 by peteski50 (New York)        
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Thanks again John now I remember you got the one with the bar handle - I thought someone got the one with the black strip but I may be mistaken! I did read the main wash will be increased to 135 if hi temp is selected and if sani is selected main wash is 140 and fin rinse is 155! But what baffles me is the 105 if no option is selected that is barely even warm water - what kind of cleaning could take place at that low of a temp!

Post# 999930 , Reply# 8   7/10/2018 at 16:33 by appnut (TX)        

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Peter, I think you will find the sensor quite sensitive and my experience with both KA produced tall tubs, that it will lean toward a heavier soil setting combination.  No prewash detergent and virtually clean dishes cause it to default to the least soil level.  Including detergent in the prewash is going to automatically trigger a higher soil level combination of cycle attributes to be executed.  With great detergent, the long main wash cycles at 110 to 120 degrees does an amazing job.  My loads are interpreted as so soiled it mimics Pots & Pans cycle using Normal or the auto sensor cycle.  But I will reinforce what I stated above, if your mom does indeed insist on washing everything before she loads, Normal and ProWash are going to be overkill.  Express Wash will be more than sufficient.  I'm even surprised how much soil gets removed with just using Express Wash and detergent in both cups.   Just purge the hot tap until hot water reaches the sink before starting.    

Post# 999932 , Reply# 9   7/10/2018 at 16:49 by peteski50 (New York)        
Kitchen Aid!

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It doesn't make any sense the machine cannot detect a lightly soiled load and cut a big chunk of time off! well that's what they call modern technology! I didn't realize that the prewash detergent will trigger a longer wash! My Mom only uses one pod for the main wash. We will have to see what happens I tried to explain about these extensive time cycles and she is not to pleased! But they are all pretty much the same!

Post# 999935 , Reply# 10   7/10/2018 at 17:14 by rinso (Meridian Idaho)        

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I have the Kenmore Pro version of the Kitchen Aid. I usually use the Short Wash cycle with heating drying. I can hear the wash arms alternate, but the water consumption is almost double that of the longer, soil-detecting cycles according to the owner's manual. Who cares?! The Short Wash cycle does a great job for most of my loads.

Post# 999946 , Reply# 11   7/10/2018 at 18:49 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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On all dry cycles there WILL be lots of condensation on the stainless tank walls, but dishes will be actually dry.
Condensation drying works on the angle that the stainless steel tub cools faster than the dishware (which doesn't work so much for plastics that don't retain heat) and entices moisture to condense off the hotter dishes onto the surface of the cooler tub ... like moisture condenses on a glass containing an iced beverage on a hot day.

I've often seen people touting that stainless steel dishwasher tubs retain heat and plastic tubs don't ... which is not the case, other than whatever heat retention is gained by insulation on the exterior of the stainless tub.

I offer this simple experiment:  Hold a metal pan, 9" round aluminum cake pan or stainless skillet or whatever you may have, on your hand and fill it with boiling water ... see how long you can hold it.  The heat is passing through to your hand.  Do the same with a plastic container that's durable enough to handle boiling water and see how much longer you can hold it compared to the metal pan.

Post# 1000004 , Reply# 12   7/11/2018 at 10:14 by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Condensation Drying

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Yes, agreed.
WP has indeed gone to a hybrid version of condensation drying on their stainless steel tank models.
They are in fact, no longer vented to the outside, yet they still use a heater element to aid drying, by heating the dishes, to boost moisture travel to the stainless walls.
It works remarkably well.

Post# 1000014 , Reply# 13   7/11/2018 at 13:23 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        
Condensation on the tub walls for drying

Just like Waste King DWs in our POD.  Question: does the pump come on during dry to carry off the condensed water like in the Waste Kings?

Post# 1000016 , Reply# 14   7/11/2018 at 14:02 by henene4 (Germany)        

Most condensing drying DW keep the final rinse water in the tank for a few minutes, then draIn that, then dry and the drain once just before finishing.

Post# 1000032 , Reply# 15   7/11/2018 at 16:09 by appnut (TX)        

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Tom, no my KA-produced Kenmore Elite doesn't turn on the pump at all during dry cycle like our 1960 Waste King did.  I don't think our 1968 Waste King did--at least I don't remember if it did or not.  But I do about the earlier one because the drain valve would snap on timer increment before the pump turned on. 

Post# 1000071 , Reply# 16   7/12/2018 at 02:13 by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

After having my KA for 6-7 months I no longer care about cycle times.  It was a concern when I got it, posted about it here, but as time has gone on I find it does not matter.  I use the Pro wash cycle, and Sani rinse as my daily use cycle and have never had a dish or cup come out with a speck of dirt.  I use the Sani rinse for flash drying, never used a heated dry ever, been that way for decades.  It is somewhat of an issue during the holidays when I like to run a bunch of dishes through the machine quickly, but 60 minutes vs 30-45 on my old machine is not that much of a difference.


Got to say I love the quietness of the unit, mine is rated at 39dB and all I hear is the drain cycle due to the way I plumbed the discharge.  I have it going directly into the drain line rather than the disposer so I hear the water falling i to the trap and splashing, really minor but I hear it.

Post# 1000088 , Reply# 17   7/12/2018 at 08:26 by Johnb300m (Chicago)        
dry and drain

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If the filter is pulled out after the cycle, there will be a noticeable amount of water in the sump, from the collection of condensate.
My KA will drain prior to starting the next cycle, but only if water is sensed above the optical sensor. If there's not a lot of condensate in the sump upon cycle start, then it will go directly to fill.

Post# 1000096 , Reply# 18   7/12/2018 at 09:51 by stevet (palm coast florida)        
not disappointed yet!

In using my Point Voyager KUDP02RIWH1 Machine as a daily driver as it have almost never returned a dirty dish when finished.
I DID swap out the 4 way hydro-sweep arm with the WP/Kenmore lightning bolt arm and found it cleaned much better especially the silverware and corners of the rack because the arm is about 1 inch wider and has the nozzles at the far ends. And it was noticeably quieter when running.

As far as the new style machines with the removable round filter that is the subject of this post,I have to say that this machine has amazed me in its ability to clean well, even with the 60 minute wash and the dishes even come out dry!

I am using a Whirlpool Plastic tub model so the condensing capabilities of the tank walls is probably less than the Stainless tank, It is far from a "quiet" machine and you can hear the water hitting the top and door with some force. For the tiny little pump it has inside and non alternating arms, it still pushes some serious water around. I have it installed in the garage right next to the hot water heater set at approx. 135 degrees and the cycles progress pretty fast due to the lack of heating delay and I suppose that it exceeds the 105 degree spec on the quick wash which probably helps to speed it up.

I heard it do the automatic purge filtration routine the other day when I was cleaning the barbeque parts in it and amazingly, there was no debris in the fine filter at all when the cycle was finished.
All in all, I think I would recommend this new design if you don't have your heart set on the Maytag design that is still coming with the so called disposer in it.
But for speed, nobody will deny that the machines of old have all of these beat by a mile.

Post# 1000375 , Reply# 19   7/15/2018 at 18:49 by peteski50 (New York)        
first load

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I just got back from Moms - she agreed to try out the new KDFE104HWH and insisted on almost washing everything first! cant argue with her she is almost 86 and a leopard don't change its spots! we ran it on express cycle with heat dry! It took less than a hour to wash and I left when it was in the dry portion of the cycle! It is a very quiet unit and I could hear the wash arms reverse and briefly pause! I would like to give it a real test run but she would never allow that! It is a nice dishwasher!

Post# 1000376 , Reply# 20   7/15/2018 at 19:25 by appnut (TX)        

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Now you know how I felt with my mom.  She saw me use what was the equivalent to a GSD940 when I built my house in 1985.  She said none of what I was putting it would get clean.  Potscrubbered and she was impressed.  Then after moving here and knowing the Hotpoint Potwasher just a wimpy imitation of a real GE, I got the GSD1200 May 1987.  She was amazed and impressed everything I threw at it.  She was chomping at the bit to replace the 1974 Rotorack. So they went in got a GSD1200 just because I had one.  All she every used on it was Energy Saver or China Chrystal from the time it was installed until they moved out of the house in 2002.  This is the same woman who went from a 1954 TimeLine gas dryer and 1956 GE 9-10 pound top loader to a Norge15 washer December 1963/1964.  Of course I was obligated to do full loads and had to dry 2 loads in the dryer.  Rule was no more than 45 minutes dry.  February 1964/1965 the match to the DispesoMat washer arrived--The Wrinkle Out dryer with what I now know had the modulating gas burner.  So now we had a dryer that could handle washer size loads.  Same rule, no more than 45 minutes dry.  (Mind you the dryer has automatic regular and automatic wash'n'wear dry cycles).  She never used those all the way through.  With thatmuch bigger load, it didn't dry fully after 45 minutes.  Laundry would be strewn over lamps, chairs, you name it for it to finish drying.  When I did laundry, I'd always used the auto dry cycles.  Regular full loads took about 55 to 60 minutes to dry.  She'd use the Wash'n'Wear dry cycle part way through to dry and then switch over to the end of timed dry.  She didn't use auto dry cycles on that dryer nor the BigLoad GE dryer acquired in 1978.  And I kept extoling auto dry.  It wasn't until she got basically the same Maytag Dependable Care dryer with electronic control dry that she began using auto dry.  Either her friends heard they used those cycles or she heard it on tv or radio it was more efficient to use auto dry cycles. 

Post# 1000398 , Reply# 21   7/16/2018 at 08:30 by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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I've never used the quick wash using my Maytag. If your mom uses pods or tabs, is that express wash long enough to dissolve them, or should she be using a different type if using that quick cycle?

Post# 1000405 , Reply# 22   7/16/2018 at 10:08 by peteski50 (New York)        
Kitchen Aid!

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the express cycle is about 1 hour so that is not so express! she used a cascade pod yesterday and I think it dissolved! now even these quick cycles are even long!

Post# 1000406 , Reply# 23   7/16/2018 at 11:12 by appnut (TX)        

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Yes Mark they do.

Post# 1000449 , Reply# 24   7/16/2018 at 17:18 by appnut (TX)        
Express not so express

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Peter I'm going disagree with you.  My previous Kenmore Elite TT Quick Wash cycle was 30 minutes.  In the 8 years I had that dishwasher, I'm not sure I used that cycle even 10 times, much less 5.  It as totally useless.  It didn't even have a heated dry option.  The final rinse was 10 minutes at most.  Hardly any time to heat water.  The current 1 hour wash cycle has about the same as the 30 minute for main wash, 15-18 minutes.  The 30 minute cycle post wash rinse was a 15 second purge.  With express I get a prewash, rinse, main wash, and two full post wash rinses.  The final rinse is 20 minutes long, long enough to heat the water at least 10 degrees.  I think the 1 hour wash cycle fits the majority of Americans' household habits since most prewash their dishes.  And Express does a really nice job on lots of soils. 

Post# 1000451 , Reply# 25   7/16/2018 at 17:45 by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
I think the next full load

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I'm going to try the quick wash on my maytag- but the option I usually use is just over 90 min's so it's not that bad at all. I've always felt like it would be useless since I don't pre-rinse.

Post# 1000454 , Reply# 26   7/16/2018 at 17:57 by peteski50 (New York)        
Quick wash!

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Mark how old is your Maytag? My Aunt has a Maytag that is 4 years old and she always uses Quick but she does prerinse!

Post# 1000457 , Reply# 27   7/16/2018 at 18:07 by henene4 (Germany)        
Whirlpool 1h cycles

Whirlpool did a lot of work to get 1h cycles on every appliance over here and most of them are decent.

Washers have a 1h mixed cycle for a partial load. Derived from the old US Duets normal cycle, it is 1h long, 25min timed prewash, 2 rinses with spins and a 10min final spin.
For our EU cold fill only machines, this cycle is ok for slightly soiled loads as 25min is often barely enough to get a warm wash.

Dryers have a matching mixed cycle which defaults to 1h but changes according to sensing. Drys pretty ok.

On DW, we do have a 1h wash as well.

With the typical US hot water connection, that cycle will be pretty effective, especially given it uses almost 30l (10gal) of water.

Probably starts with a high fill level, heated 5min prewash.
Drain, high fill, start wash, dispense detergent immediatly, start heating immediatly. Given typical heating rates, the temperature should climb 1F per minute. With a 20-25min wash, we should get to 140F no problem.
Then drain, refill for interim rinse which will be heated as well.
After 5min, drain, fill for final rinse. That should have about 25-30min for heating to a proper 150F-160F which should be enough to flash dry most of the load.

All with lots of water and - where applicable - high pressure.

Post# 1000505 , Reply# 28   7/17/2018 at 10:51 by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
My Maytag was

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4 yrs old last month. lol

Post# 1000539 , Reply# 29   7/17/2018 at 16:23 by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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remind me NEVER to use quick wash on my Maytag. I swear it only ran for 30 minutes, maybe 45 AT MOST. I was too lazy to find the manual to see how long it was, but it was no hour, that's for sure. I mean, it didn't do a horrible job, most everything was clean. But definitely not as clean as when I just use the normal cycle with hi-temp which runs about 90 to 100 min's

Post# 1000550 , Reply# 30   7/17/2018 at 16:54 by appnut (TX)        

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Mark, your generation dishwasher was on the cusp where they redesigned the cycles.  So yours falls in to my old TT Kenmore Elite, just a 30 minute quick wash and probably no heated dry option.  I believe the current Maytag dishwashers are the 1 hour variety.  But you tried it.  That's what counts.  You could have looked up the manual on Maytag's website.  

Post# 1000589 , Reply# 31   7/17/2018 at 20:53 by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        
Ahhh ok

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Yep , I tried it. Never again tho. LOL

Post# 1000592 , Reply# 32   7/17/2018 at 21:26 by peteski50 (New York)        
Maytag quick!

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My Aunt has the Maytag and is about 4 years old she always uses quick cycle which is about 1 hour - but she rinses everything first! My Mom washes everything first so the Express cycle on the KA will be fine for her!

Post# 1000669 , Reply# 33   7/18/2018 at 13:53 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

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Those 30min. cycles on those earlier generation machines were really for lightly soiled, partial loads of mostly glasses, which were needed quickly. Like if you ran out of cups for a party.

The newer 1hr wash on the current WP platform seems programmed to really handle dirtier dishes, in a still pretty good time frame. Including dry.

Post# 1000671 , Reply# 34   7/18/2018 at 14:09 by thomasortega (Los Angeles - CA)        

My Kenmore has that 1 hour "quick?" cycle and all I can say is I LOVE IT!

Pods surely dissolve perfectly.

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