Thread Number: 77724
/ Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
More CARS being discontinued |
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Post# 1017464 , Reply# 1   12/9/2018 at 14:22 (1,936 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.)   |   | |
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They are just going to force more buyers into buying Japanese, Korean and German sedans. But then with the new tariffs, that is going to make them prohibitively expensive for many buyers. I’ll just hang on to my 2007 Honda Civic, with 59,000 miles on the odometer its still got probably enough life left in it to last me for the rest of my life anyway. It’s been the most trouble free automoblie I’ve ever owned, and when I sit in the drivers seat it feels like an old friend.
The US automakers are going to regret this decision in years to come. And while gas may be dropping in price now,inducing many buyers into purchasing these gas hogs, I can see the handwritting on the wall. Another recession is just around the corner, and I believe its going to be even worse than the last one that began in 2007. When all these people with the seven year loans on these gas hogs start to lose their jobs, they’re going to wish to hell they never laid eyes on these beasts of burden. And you can bet your bottom dollar that the gas thats cheap now, ain’t going to be cheap for long. People will never learn. Eddie |
Post# 1017484 , Reply# 3   12/9/2018 at 16:24 (1,936 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )   |   | |
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I'd have a hard time going back to a car as my daily driver.. I think I'm like most people and like the higher up seating, and ease of entry / exit that suv/cuv's offer. Not sure where you get that they don't offer all the features as a car., they most certainly do.. I have reclining rear seats in my 015 Forester and there's quite a bit of storage behind the rear seat. and it's considered a compact
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Post# 1017487 , Reply# 4   12/9/2018 at 17:01 (1,936 days old) by cuffs054 (MONTICELLO, GA)   |   | |
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I guess I'm a luddite, but I still like sedans. My recently purchased Mitsubishi Mirage has exceeded all expectations. I just can't see the need for an SUV. Of course saying that, I still have my Pontiac Aztek which at 14 yrs old is still going strong. |
Post# 1017500 , Reply# 5   12/9/2018 at 17:51 (1,936 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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>They are just going to force more buyers into buying Japanese, Korean and German sedans. But then with the new tariffs, that is going to make them prohibitively expensive for many buyers.
I am not up on the details of present and proposed (and threatened!) future tariffs on cars. But I assume they would not apply to cars foreign makers make in the US. And a lot of the popular cars are made here in the US. Even there were a tariff that impacted, say, a US made Honda or Toyota, there are two points. First, if you want a car, and the only real choice is a foreign car, well, that's the only choice. Take it or leave it. Secondly, even if there is a tariff on a Toyota, that extra cost might get cancelled out if you own the car long enough since it's likely to need fewer repairs. >I’ll just hang on to my 2007 Honda Civic, with 59,000 miles on the odometer its still got probably enough life left in it to last me for the rest of my life anyway. With maintenance, I'd guess it should have lots of life left. I'd guess it has a reasonable chance of hitting 200,000 miles. I know someone who has that generation of Civic, and I've ridden with him. I'm really impressed by that car. It's a car model I'd seriously consider used if I ever had the money to own a car again. |
Post# 1017502 , Reply# 6   12/9/2018 at 17:56 (1,936 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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>I guess I'm a luddite, but I still like sedans.
I'm that way, too. Although to be fair, I've never driven a SUV, although I have driven pickups a few times. A big factor for me: gas mileage matters to me, even when gas prices are low. Also environmental impact matters to me. Meanwhile, I have zero reason to need a SUV--I seldom go off road (which is probably true of 99% of current SUV buyers), I don't need to haul a huge family, I seldom need to haul furniture, etc. |
Post# 1017503 , Reply# 7   12/9/2018 at 18:02 (1,936 days old) by philcobendixduo (San Jose)   |   | |
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.....so I have an even MORE limited choice IF I were to need to purchase a new one.
I am still driving and enjoying my 2003 VW Passat GLX wagon which just turned 100,000 miles. The new Buick Tour X wagon (Opel sourced) is nice but it doesn't get any better mpg than my VW and I HATE (yes HATE) the ugly black cladding around the wheel openings of the Buick. VW Golf Sportwagen is nice but a lot smaller than my Passat and not equipped nearly as nicely. BMW, Mercedes and Volvo wagons are WAY out of my price comfort level. I have promised myself that I will NEVER buy an SUV, CUV, or "cross-over". Don't like them! |
Post# 1017504 , Reply# 8   12/9/2018 at 18:11 (1,936 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1017506 , Reply# 9   12/9/2018 at 18:35 (1,936 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )   |   | |
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My 15 years old Grand Marquis, When I have to get rid of it, I will hunt another one or a Town Car. Suits me and its PAID FOR! |
Post# 1017507 , Reply# 10   12/9/2018 at 18:40 (1,936 days old) by Xraytech (Rural southwest Pennsylvania )   |   | |
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While I may not be a fan of SUVs and Crossovers I have been kinda forced in that direction.
I am an American full-size luxury sedan and wagon person. I am 6’5” so size is important to me. I had a Cadillac XTS which is the current full size offering, I found to be a touch too small for me, not to mention being a light car and the low profile 19” tires made for a poor ride on the country roads I drive, as well as it was about useless dealing with winter driving in Pittsburgh’s hilly terrain. At the Auto show in January I spent a lot of time looking at the Buick Regal TourX wagon, but after 2 test drives I found it to be a bit too low, and the roof line was too low for me to fit comfortably. Since the days of the Park Avenue, LeSabre, DeVille, Grand Marquis etc. are long gone I’ve been forced out of the sedan market. While I do have a Park Avenue it’s starting to get rough, so in September I took delivery of a 2015 Buick Enclave. I like having the extra cargo room, the headspace is great. It is well equipped with heated leather, 2nd row reclining bucket seats, rear climate control, heated steering wheel, navigation, remote start, etc. Luckily the Enclave rides like a car and has all the luxury amenities I’m used to from owning Buick and Cadillac sedans in the past. |
Post# 1017508 , Reply# 11   12/9/2018 at 19:01 (1,936 days old) by JustJunque (Western MA)   |   | |
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Nice cars.
I go through phases where I have wanted a Crown Victoria, especially the police version, a Grand Marquis, a Town Car. I did drive a Buick Roadmaster for a while, and liked it a lot. The LT-1 had plenty of power, even for a big car. But, like I do with all of my vehicles lately, I let it just sit and deteriorate. Now, we drive a 2002 Ford Explorer, which we bought in '05, (great vehicle), and a 2001 VW Passat sedan that was given to us a few years ago. That little car has surpassed my expectations. I thought a four cylinder was nowhere near enough motor for it, and that it would die young. But, it's still going, at 18 years old, and 126,000 miles. When it does need repairs, it tends to be quite expensive though. For example, $1,000 to replace the heater core. The six cylinder Explorer has 170,000 or so on it, and has been remarkably dependable. Barry |
Post# 1017509 , Reply# 12   12/9/2018 at 19:04 (1,936 days old) by JustJunque (Western MA)   |   | |
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Post# 1017512 , Reply# 13   12/9/2018 at 19:16 (1,936 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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My brother had an Enclave CXL AWD and it was very nice. When he passed away I passed on it. I have a 2014 Silverado that has been wonderful. I have to have a truck with 4WD where I live. It gets decent gas mileage but I dont put alot of miles on it. If I was living back in town, I'd probably consider something smaller.
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Post# 1017514 , Reply# 14   12/9/2018 at 19:19 (1,936 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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Post# 1017523 , Reply# 15   12/9/2018 at 20:42 (1,936 days old) by surgilator1 (Atlanta, Georgia)   |   | |
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took the words right out of my mouth. all of these cars listed above sound impeccable and taken care of. just don't much care for a unkept automobile. I always taken pride in my ride regardless of age. |
Post# 1017524 , Reply# 16   12/9/2018 at 20:50 (1,936 days old) by joeekaitis (Rialto, California, USA)   |   | |
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The moment the price of a gallon of gas approaches Honest Abe territory, GM's assembly lines in China can retool in a matter of days or weeks to start cranking out sedans and hatchbacks for export to the USA because they're newer than the American assembly lines built mainly to assemble one or two types of vehicle.
Either that or they'll be rattling an ever bigger tin cup for another round of bailouts as unsold crossovers and SUVs pile up. |
Post# 1017562 , Reply# 20   12/10/2018 at 09:44 (1,935 days old) by philcobendixduo (San Jose)   |   | |
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Besides GM and Ford paring down car production, ALL carmakers have pretty much made BLACK the one and only interior "color" choice which is a no sale for me.
Either this is another "production efficiency" for auto makers (i.e. cost cutting) or American car buyers just go with whatever everyone else goes with like lemmings to the sea. Most popular exterior colors continue to be shades of gray and silver, black and white. Not for me, thank you! If I'm going to pay over 40k for a new car, I'm not going to "settle" for a funeral parlor interior because it's the only thing available. I used to be an avid "car guy" but today's cars do absolutely NOTHING for me. |
Post# 1017573 , Reply# 21   12/10/2018 at 11:32 (1,935 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)   |   | |
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actually gray not black seems to be most common, along with Greige. Oh for the days of red, blue or green!
We'll never go back to a car for a DD, in upstate NY and VT 4wd/awd is a must and we like the ride height of a mid-size SUV (not a crossover); with all the absurdly tall pickups (have you seen the new '19 Heavy Duty pickup that Chevy just introduced?!) & Escalades out there regular cars are just too low for safety, imo. And we have a vintage Chevy and Mustang convert to get the car fix when we need one. |
Post# 1017585 , Reply# 23   12/10/2018 at 12:25 (1,935 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)   |   | |
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also reported it is phasing out all gasoline engines by the year 2026. So expect more diesel, and electric vehicles to be introduced. |
Post# 1017588 , Reply# 24   12/10/2018 at 12:43 (1,935 days old) by robbinsandmyers (Conn)   |   | |
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The Brits have a saying called " Missed the plot " and it always applies to our auto makers. Thats why when gas is over $4.00 a gallon again, and it WILL happen. Your local GM/Ford/Chrysler dealers will be giving away gas sucking vehicles with factory employee discounts on cars no one wants while the Toyota dealers will have a 6 month wait on a 50 MPG Prius like last time. Meanwhile the VW dealers will be screwed because they have no diesels to sell. I drive German or Japanese diesels PERIOD. If I cant buy new ones anymore I'll just keep buying old ones. Like my 18 year old 50 MPG diesel Golf with a quarter million miles on it.
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Post# 1017593 , Reply# 25   12/10/2018 at 13:11 (1,935 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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Post# 1017596 , Reply# 26   12/10/2018 at 13:25 (1,935 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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I think Ford and Chevy are shooting themselves in the foot.
Much like Chrysler did in the early 2000s. Gas was cheap so they put a Hemi-V8 into everything. Then Gas prices jumped, they had abandoned the lower revenue small car and they couldn't give their monsters away. Ford and Chevy take warning. Gas will not stay artificially low, and when it spikes it will be 2008 all over again. |
Post# 1017618 , Reply# 27   12/10/2018 at 17:54 (1,935 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )   |   | |
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I hate black interiors as well but that was the only choice they gave with the pearl mist (white) exterior. Hubby's car is charcoal gray (basically almost black) which I do not like at all, too hard to keep clean, but it has a nice light gray interior. Even with their top model you're stuck with only one or two interior choices.
Nissan according to an article in the Toronto Star last week are sticking with sedans over cuv/suvs and will probably be the only maker doing so. They're actually betting on having enough customers who don't want an suv/cuv We pay a lot more for gas in Canada that the US, except maybe Calif. which seems similarly priced.. yet the biggest selling vehicle in Canada is the Ford F150 pickup.. |
Post# 1017620 , Reply# 28   12/10/2018 at 18:06 (1,935 days old) by joeekaitis (Rialto, California, USA)   |   | |
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Post# 1017635 , Reply# 33   12/10/2018 at 19:51 (1,935 days old) by super32 (Blackstone Massachusetts)   |   | |
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Being in the northeast an AWD/4WD is a must. At least 1 vehicle in the household. I have had several makes and models thru the years. I will never own another Toyota again. It was extremely uncomfortable and the 4 i had were not reliable either. Not that they are stellar, but Ford has been good to me. Lets be honest, you cant beat an F150. We currently have a Lincoln Town Car, Chrysler T&C and Ford Flex. We are absolutely in love with the Flex. The Flex doesnt get the best mileage but its big enough, comfortable, quick on its feet, and moves around in the snow unless its really "deep snow". With all of this said, another F150 is in our future along with the Flex. I am a big boy towering in at 6'4" and 200lbs. Those small thingy's are so uncomfortable :(
Pix attached for fun. |
Post# 1017656 , Reply# 36   12/11/2018 at 01:53 (1,935 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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>Toyotas have always been a bit meh for me. There's nothing wrong with them at all and I'm sure they're great cars, but they're just so expensive for what you get in my opinion.
I have a hard time getting excited about Toyota, myself. BUT I know a lot of people have them, love them, and would never consider any other brand. The big selling point seems to be reliability and long service life--at least historically. I know of people who have a 20+ year old Toyota that just seems to keep going on and on. Of course, a new Toyota might not be that good. I've heard some say a 2018 Camry won't last as long as a 1998 Camry (partly because of how complicated the cars are). But the buyer perception is still "Toyota makes reliable cars that last forever!" And so Toyota can charge more than Kia, and get away with it. As I said above, I have a hard time getting excited by Toyota. I can even go further and say a Toyota Corolla (late 80s? maybe early 90s?) I once test drove was a car I positively HATED. I could not get it back to the dealer fast enough. But Toyota is on my list of cars to consider if I can ever afford to buy a car. Not exciting, but it seems like one of the better gambles. Given how poor I am, I'd be realistically stuck with a car that was made when Bill Clinton was in office, and has a quarter million miles-plus on the odometer. |
Post# 1017671 , Reply# 37   12/11/2018 at 08:02 (1,934 days old) by Xraytech (Rural southwest Pennsylvania )   |   | |
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Before choosing an Enclave, I was considering a Ford Flex. They are rather common here.
I would have got one in the same red as the one Scott has, unfortunately since I wasn’t looking to order a new one, I could not find a Flex, even in Limited trim that had the 2nd row bucket seats. At least on the Enclave the bucket seats are standard |
Post# 1017676 , Reply# 38   12/11/2018 at 09:38 (1,934 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 1017688 , Reply# 39   12/11/2018 at 12:34 (1,934 days old) by ken (NYS)   |   | |
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Post# 1017740 , Reply# 40   12/12/2018 at 05:00 (1,933 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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@ Joe...
"I can't be the only person in the world who looks at a Buick crossover and sees a steamed Bratwurst on wheels." Exactly !!! Hahahaha. Too Funny. Like the Nissan Cube was dubbed "A Toaster". But for some reason I like the Cube. Have to say, I will stick with my Tacomas. Been driving them since 1986. I take good care of them and they take good care of me. Presently my "Baby Boy" 2004 Tacoma has 180,000 and runs like the day I brought it home. |
Post# 1017784 , Reply# 43   12/12/2018 at 15:50 (1,933 days old) by JustJunque (Western MA)   |   | |
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Agreed. The '95 to '97 Town Cars are some of my favorites.
I also love the style that ran up until maybe 1987 or '88. Of course, ten years older, ten years more wear and tear/problems. Back in my show car days, I once had a '77 Ford LTD Landau for a winter car, which always looked and felt somewhat "Lincolny" to me. I loved that car. To heck with the haters! In the rust belt, or wherever I live, those Fords were notorious for rear bumper rust. About a block away from work one morning, mine plum fell off in the middle of the road. I went back, put it in the trunk, and went on to work. At least I think that was me. I've been home from work sick since last Friday, and I think I might be starting to lose what's left of my mind. Barry |
Post# 1017829 , Reply# 45   12/13/2018 at 00:41 (1,933 days old) by mieleforever (SOUTH AFRICA)   |   | |
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I find this clip on You Tube, and its rather interesting to watch, but I think the European Auto industry is on rocky territory as well. Daimler-Benz already predicted a downward swing of things. Regards, CLICK HERE TO GO TO mieleforever's LINK |
Post# 1017853 , Reply# 47   12/13/2018 at 10:33 (1,932 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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It's annoying when parking in parking lots these days with so many large vehicles next to you. I tend to park where there are more open spaces to avoid problems backing up, but usually when I come out, I'll find a big truck or SUV has parked next to me and blocks the view of who is coming.
Amen to that! I park in the parking garage at work and I back in so I don't get slammed trying to back out in the morning when people are running the Indy 500 trying to get out of that garage. Never fails someone whipped in on two wheels skinning it trying not to be late, park crooked, and too close. A couple of days ago I could barely get into my little Bug because of this. I'm about to order some of those "terrible parking award" cards and start handing them out! |
Post# 1017859 , Reply# 48   12/13/2018 at 11:52 (1,932 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)   |   | |
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Post# 1017872 , Reply# 49   12/13/2018 at 12:43 (1,932 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)   |   | |
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Post# 1017875 , Reply# 50   12/13/2018 at 13:14 (1,932 days old) by ea56 (Cotati, Calif.)   |   | |
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If only! Yes, technology is vastly improved today, but what craftsmenship they had back in the 30’s, 40’s, 50’s and early 60’s. To me, after 1967, the zenith of American automobiles, at least design wise, American cars took a dive in quality, and were never quite the same again.
And the simplicity compared to todays complicated, computerized automobiles is a thing of beauty too. Last time I had major service done on my 2007 Honda Civic, the dealer kindly gave me a brand new 2018 Civic as a loaner. The controls and dash are too distracting, and much of the stuff is just not necessary. That touch screen crapola for the heater and AC, and audio is much more difficult to use than plain old fashioned knobs and buttons. And I believe, with the heavier traffic today, these things cause more distacted drivers and probably more accidents, that could otherwise have been avoided. And back then many more people were able to do routine maintance and repairs on their own cars. Now not so much. I guess I’m just officially an old geezer. LOL I want to drive my car, not have it drive me. Eddie |
Post# 1017881 , Reply# 51   12/13/2018 at 15:45 (1,932 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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>And the simplicity compared to todays complicated, computerized automobiles is a thing of beauty too
No kidding. I've heard so many complaints about new cars being too complex. And I feel overwhelmed, myself, just looking at the photo of a modern car's interior. And yes, I also think touch screens are potentially too complicated/distracting for handling basic functions. Oddly, though, I was talking with an owner of a 2009 Civic (which I mentioned above), and he's contemplating replacing the car in the coming months. I don't think he's thrilled at the complexity of a new car, but he did say that one plus he sees are new safety technologies that his current Civic lacks. |
Post# 1017942 , Reply# 52   12/13/2018 at 23:53 (1,932 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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I'm glad our MKS has an off setting for the radio/nav/climate/phone screen. I turn it off after dark because it's just too bright and glares at night even with it dimmed all the way. Ford programmed it to default back to on every time the car is turned off and restarted. GM didn't do that and in our previous Cadillacs it had to be turned back on manually every time. It used to make Tony so mad when I'd turn it off because he didn't know how to turn it back on. I actually liked the dash layout of our previous 2010 model better...it had knobs and buttons instead of touch pads and touch slide pads. Lincoln has already had to replace the module in our new one because it started turning the radio up by itself and they couldn't figure out why. I'd rather have an knob or actual button. |
Post# 1019029 , Reply# 53   12/24/2018 at 22:41 (1,921 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)   |   | |
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Post# 1019374 , Reply# 55   12/29/2018 at 11:14 (1,916 days old) by JustJunque (Western MA)   |   | |
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Congratulations on the new car.
Is it new new, or new to you? I drive a 2012 Ford Focus at work, and after a couple of years in it, I still haven't figured out all of the controls in the center of the dash. It's not a touch screen system, but there's just buttons galore. I'm sure the owners manual would be helpful, but they bought the car used, and the manual didn't come with it. Barry |
Post# 1019513 , Reply# 57   12/30/2018 at 17:22 (1,915 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)   |   | |
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I'm pretty sure 2016 is beyond complicated...
I know someone who has some sort of new Toyota, and she was complaining about the complexity. I think her approach is to learn just what she needs/wants to know, and forget the rest. I rode about 9 years ago in one woman's Focus. I can't remember how old it was at the time. But I was actually impressed by what I saw of that car. Keep in mind this is coming from someone who was biased towards foreign makes. That Focus was far better than the cheap small Fords of the 80s. No idea what newer Focus models are like, though. As for transmissions...I'm surprised at how many automatic transmission problems I hear about, and from companies that I'd never guess have a problem. Honda, for example, although Honda isn't apparently the company it was in the 80s. That said...I've also heard that a lot depends on how the transmission is treated. There are people who have a "known weak" transmission, and yet had zero problems with even significant miles. They've maintained the transmission aggressively, and they have driven sanely. If you carefully maintain the Taurus, and treat it well, I think it's reasonable to expect 10 years. Certainly, at the least, barring any horrific design flaws, I'd guess it should go 100K miles with little trouble. Then, in 10 years, you can replace it... And if cars keep changing as they are, you can then come here to talk about how much more complicated the 2026 car is compared to your simple Taurus. LOL |
Post# 1019515 , Reply# 58   12/30/2018 at 17:28 (1,915 days old) by JustJunque (Western MA)   |   | |
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Yeah. The one I drive at work had that issue.
It would buck on take-off like someone trying to learn how to drive a manual transmission. Then, sometimes it would just randomly downshift while you're driving. At one point, it lost reverse completely. Ford did extend the warranty on the transmission out to something like 150,000 miles. It went back to the dealer a few times before they got it right, but it drives nice now. It's horrible in snow, but you probably wouldn't have to worry about that in FL. I'm told that it's better if you turn off the traction control. If I'm unfortunate enough to have to drive it in snow again, I'll have to try that. I hope you really enjoy your Taurus once you get through the learning curve! Barry |
Post# 1019650 , Reply# 60   12/31/2018 at 21:47 (1,914 days old) by Ultralux88 (Denver)   |   | |
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Post# 1023039 , Reply# 62   1/30/2019 at 11:20 (1,884 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)   |   | |
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Yes, on the bright side is that, and with 4WD also an industry standard in SUV’s, the less likelihood of being stuck in snow, knowing AAA and other towing services have enough work on their hands...
Somehow even when my Jeep is not yet switched into the 4WD mode, I find it does get me through those treacherous conditions with great agility, especially considering I had a FWD Chrysler 200 before that... So between those two, alone, there’s simply no comparison which is better and drives more easily through ice and snow... — Dave |
Post# 1023060 , Reply# 63   1/30/2019 at 15:14 (1,884 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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We were just picking up my husband's new drive (he just completed a 2 year lease on a Cruze ($113/month lease, 0 down, 24 months 10k miles/year) and switched to an Equinox ($182/month lease, 0 down, 24 months 12k/year). The ultra-cheap leases are gone, but employee pricing plus discounts discounts discounts. The dealer (the dealer situation in metro Detroit is weird--this dealer is M-F only, with M and Th until 9. There are a few dealers with limited Saturday hours) was talking--they sold roughly 800 new vehicles in December, and 80% of those were Equinoxes (Equinox is the best selling vehicle in SE Michigan; and it's what GM is promoting at the moment).
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Post# 1023121 , Reply# 64   1/31/2019 at 03:53 (1,884 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)   |   | |
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Post# 1023124 , Reply# 65   1/31/2019 at 04:58 (1,883 days old) by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)   |   | |
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Another good point, is the hatchback... I often even now before I have to carry anything extraordinarily big, would have done without a huge lift gate, vs. the small and narrow channel of a trunk I've had to make do with and had been limited and hindered by for years...
But somehow, however, my SUV, classified as a station wagon, is still an SUV... -- Dave |