Thread Number: 77973
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Bosch or FisherPaykel Dishwasher? |
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Post# 1019943 , Reply# 5   1/3/2019 at 06:05 (1,912 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 1019953 , Reply# 6   1/3/2019 at 07:49 (1,911 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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The DD model TomDawg cited is a "Tall" model. The upper drawer (or maybe both?) is deeper. Specifications state 12-1/4" plates. There's also a specific Sanitize option. DishDrawers always heat the water to specific temps for the main wash and final rinse (target varies per the selected cycle), extending cycle time as needed. Mine is 15+ years. Older models had more water changes during the cycle. Several cycles on mine have prewashes. My Heavy cycle has seven water changes (prewash, rinse, rinse, wash, rinse, rinse, rinse), and heats to 150°F for the main wash, 163°F for the final rinse. They reduced the number of water changes on newer models to meet the more stringent water/energy factors. |
Post# 1019955 , Reply# 7   1/3/2019 at 08:38 (1,911 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)   |   | |
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I had a 2003 model that came with a brand new house....given a choice, I would have had two double drawers, one on each side of the sink....but honestly, a dishdrawer on one side, and a full size dishwasher on the other is more practical...
the top drawer seem to get favored because of the simplicity of quick loading.... replaced the motor/impellor once....not even a 10 minute job... upgraded to the newer lids, which now flex if a dish is too tall..... some newer models offered a sort of top sprayer, but not really needed... if one unit does break, you still have a backup, if you have to wait for parts or service.... easy to service, as you can pull out one unit at a time, without having to pull the whole box unit out... one thing I liked about F&P....you may have a 2003 model, and run into an issue several years later, the newer design fit the older machine....for example, there is a plastic rod that retracts the hoses, which may snap....the issue has been corrected on newer models, and this correction will fit the older models...same for the lids... the only time I seen a DD leak, was whoever installed it, could not attach it to the granite counter, so drilled holes in the side....right through the arms that pull the lid down....lids can't close, leaks can happen... ________________________________________ I installed a Bosch for my brother....many unique features....his offers a Top Rack only wash, and the top rack can be removed for tall pans....all stainless, very durable..... since your building a new house....is it possible to make a few changes and install both?......you would really have the best of both worlds....and if you cook or entertain a lot, it would be a godsend... ______________________________ note too.....both of these machines offer a leak detector, the machine will stop, drain and shut off before any major damage occurs... |
Post# 1019991 , Reply# 8   1/3/2019 at 14:24 (1,911 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)   |   | |
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I'd second both!
We had a similar dilemma a few years back. The older Bosch that came with our house worked well, but we found out that it was on the recall list (control panel fires), so we had to do something. As part of the recall, they would either provide the fixes/updates for free, or give us (I belive) half-off of a brand new Bosch unit. The older Bosch cleaned very well, but was middle-of-the-line with only two racks, and didn't quite match the other appliances, so we decided it was a good time to upgrade. It was between a new Bosch and the F&P DishDrawers... and we ended up with a 3-rack 800-series Bosch due to the flexibility to hold larger items, and our opportunity to get it at a good price. Couldn't be happier with the purchase - it's super quiet, and the "auto" setting washes beautifully without any guesswork, as does the express setting when we need it. But that being said, there are plenty of times when the pair of smaller capacity units, or even just additional capacity, would be beneficial - and I could see a single DishDrawer being a perfect complement to a full-size Bosch. |
Post# 1020004 , Reply# 9   1/3/2019 at 17:24 (1,911 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Tom, what settings are you using to yield 4.5 hours? And what's your water heart set at? I have a KitchenAid-produced Kenmore Elite. The only way I can approach that length is if I use the AutoClean or Pots & Pans cycle with Sani-Rinse Temp; Target Clean (Turbo Zone) and Heated Dry. My water heater is set at 120 degrees And I'm the originator of the term BobLoad and I don't rinse and barely scrape. |
Post# 1020010 , Reply# 10   1/3/2019 at 17:39 (1,911 days old) by Whatsername (Denver, CO)   |   | |
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See my thread here about the F&P for some good responses. I've had the double Tall model almost a year now and it's still great, I find it holds a ton of dishes in the top drawer alone; I use the bottom drawer only when I'm really cooking up a storm.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO Whatsername's LINK |
Post# 1020037 , Reply# 13   1/3/2019 at 21:49 (1,911 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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There's also the 36" DishDrawer Wide (and Tall) (available only in single-drawer models) that takes a double-row of plates, or whatever else one may want to load. It, of course, requires non-standard cabinetry dimensions for installation. I've seen two of those installed to either side of a kitchen sink. |
Post# 1020064 , Reply# 14   1/4/2019 at 05:24 (1,911 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Tom, if you are basing cycle length on what the time display shows when you push start, it's deceiving. If you're using the Sani-Rinse option, I have found that by the end of the cycle, it's 1/2 an hour less time that what showed on the display. If opting for sani-rinse as well as heated dry, with today's energy standard, the time for heated dry isn't worth the time investment. When sani-rinse option is use, heated dry the element only comes on for a couple of minutes every 7 minutes. I've also found with sani--rinse, things dry as good, if not better with the residual heat and not using the time for heated dry. My dishwasher also has a little fan that comes on after dry cycle has been on for about 209 minutes and keeps running for an hour after cycle is complete. Early on, I found out the little fan never comes on when sani-rinse and even the extra dry option is used. I can choose a heated dry of either 50 minute of 1:29 minute. |
Post# 1021640 , Reply# 16   1/18/2019 at 22:39 (1,896 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1021862 , Reply# 17   1/20/2019 at 16:26 (1,894 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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I've had my MOL Bosch for about 16 years now. I was notified of the upgrade and opted to have the control panel updated. I wasn't real impressed with the tech they sent out, but the work didn't create any new problems.
Lately I discovered the machine needed repairs: the drain check valve (or "non-return valve") had crumbled and was blocking the drain. Additionally, the inlet fill valve was seeping so that the machine would very slowly fill up with fresh water. I just finished fixing both problems. Total cost for parts was less than $30. My labor was free but if you look at the thread I created, it wasn't all that easy. The check valve that failed was original to the Bosch... it seemed to be of an inferior type of rubber. Black, which swelled and crumbled over time. Perhaps some sort of natural rubber, I don't know. The replacement looks like it's silicone rubber, translucent colorless, which should last much longer. My question about the F&P dish drawer is what was mentioned already: that it's twice as many parts - separate fill valves, drain pumps, recirculation pumps, heaters, etc. So twice as much to go wrong. Also the interiors (when I looked at them) are plastic, not stainless. It also seems logical that two separate drawers will never have the total capacity of a single chamber dishwasher. Plus the F&P's seem to be hard to find. The Bosch can also do a Sanitize (161F) wash. Don't know about the F&P. On the F&P's side, the double drawer feature means one can run smaller loads more often. This may have the advantage of limiting the bacterial or fungal growth that might occur with dirty dishes etc waiting in the DW for days to accumulate a full load. I wind up running my Bosch about 3 times a week. Almost always with the Sanitize option as well as the longest "Power Scrub Plus" cycle. Takes between 100 and 120 minutes per cycle. Not a problem, usually I run it at night. People seem to be happy with their F&P machines. I guess it depends on the situation. |
Post# 1021876 , Reply# 18   1/20/2019 at 17:45 (1,894 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Dual-drawer units use a single-body inlet valve with dual solenoids to feed the upper or lower (assuming that hasn't changed on the current iteration). Each drawer has a heating element, which is a ceramic disc with integral temp sensor and overheat thermal fuse (non-resettable). No failures on mine thus far. Cycle programming and temperature points have changed through the years. Mine has Heavy being the highest-temp cycle, heats the final rinse to 163°F. Current models have a specific Sanitize option (Heavy and Medium/Normal cycles) - increases final rinse temperature to 158°F. Description says "kills 99.9 of bacteria." A flag on the display at end of the cycle indicates whether the target temperature was reached and held for the required period of time. Plastic tub is no cause for alarm. Plastic insulates better and is quieter by nature (less resonance from water spray). Regards to pumps ... they use a variation of the SmartDrive motor. 3-phase stator mounted into the tub (drawer), with a removable dual-impeller rotor. Upper impeller is recirculate, lower is drain. The rotation direction reverses accordingly. One pump/motor per drawer. Stators rarely fail. Rotors are a "wear" part but are easily replaced and inexpensive compared to a Bosch pump (changed one of mine in 15 years). Some details on the design have changed over the years ... slightly different rotor, different filter arrangement. Pics below reflect my DD603. 1 - rotor 2 - outer gray ring is the heating element, middle gray disc is the stator 3 - rotor installed 4 - stainless steel filter disc and drain filter 5 - spray arm sits directly atop the recirculation impeller |
Post# 1022451 , Reply# 20   1/25/2019 at 16:26 (1,889 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)   |   | |
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>> My question about the F&P dish drawer is what was mentioned already: that it's twice as many parts -
>> separate fill valves, drain pumps, recirculation pumps, heaters, etc. So twice as much to go wrong. That may be true, but it's up to you whether you consider that an argument AGAINST or an argument FOR the design. For example, if I have a single big dishwasher, any size load is a cycle. 200 full loads and 200 half loads is 400 cycles on each part in the machine - the heater, the spray arm, etc. In the drawer pair, washing the same loads, they would only have averaged 300 full cycles per drawer. So there is a possibility, all else being equal, for the split units to outlast the single unit due to the lesser cycle accumulation. There are also cases where your redundancy is beneficial. Spring a leak in a normal dishwasher, and you are handwashing in the sink. Spring a leak in a drawer, and you've only lost half of your capacity. That could be a HUGE help if you are, say, hosting Thanksgiving for a large family. It's similar to how things work in aviation. Statistically speaking, aircraft with 4-engines aren't more reliable than those with 2, nor are the twins more reliable than singles, all because more engines = more moving parts = more chances for problems = more maintenance required. But there are good reasons why more engines are preferred for long oceanic flights. |
Post# 1022480 , Reply# 21   1/25/2019 at 20:27 (1,889 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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I don't quite buy that a double drawer machine will be fewer cycles and less wear and tear on the components. That because with a standard dishwasher, at least in my case, I accumulate dishes etc. until it's a full load, and then I run it. This turns out to be about 2-3 times a week. With a dish drawer setup, I'd probably load the upper drawer the most (easier to access) and run that nightly. Even if I switched between drawers, it would still be an average of 3.5 loads per week per drawer.
Mind you, I have nothing really against F&P DD DW's. The more variety the merrier. I just don't accept some of the arguments in their favor. Besides my SHU43 Bosch, my only other modern dishwasher experience is with a 1997 Frigidaire Gallery DW. It was a POS. Its main problem is too much plastic. The fine filter screen was a large and limp plastic piece of junk that warped and allowed debris into the recirculation pump, clogging the wash arms regularly. After that I got the Bosch and it is a far better design, albeit not without its own minor issues. Mainly the Bosch DW philosophy is longer wash times, higher temps, and less forceful water spray. It works quite well but does not lend itself to overloading the washer. I also have two top loading KA dishwashers; both work, but I rarely fire them up. But they could easily wash large objects. I also have a few older KA under counter DW's but they are not in service (ran out of counter openings!). One of these days I'm gonna figure out how to carve a DW cubby out of the enclosed patio kitchen counter area. The water here is reasonably soft - 3 to 5 grains when tested. But it's enough to cause problems in some circumstance. My understanding is it's rather difficult to find a DW sold new in America with a built-in water softener. Older DW detergent formulations had complex phosphates that did a great job of both softening hard water and fighting hard water mineral buildup inside the DW. |
Post# 1022594 , Reply# 23   1/26/2019 at 19:59 (1,888 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1022595 , Reply# 24   1/26/2019 at 20:16 (1,888 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
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Post# 1022633 , Reply# 26   1/27/2019 at 04:01 (1,888 days old) by Eronie (Flushing Michigan)   |   | |
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I have heard that Jewish people like the F&P dishdrawers because in a Kosher kitchen you have to keep your meat an non meat dishes pots an pans separate. |
Post# 1028114 , Reply# 28   3/27/2019 at 12:39 (1,828 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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"... you don't have a choice to pre-rinse your plates with a Fisher and Paykel." Is that comment referring to a Rinse/Hold cycle? Mine (16yo) has it (although I never use it). A quick look at a user manual for a current model on F&P's web site indicates they still have the cycle. Loading involves a learning curve ... and also depends on the dishware comprising any given load. The rack tines are too tall, creates an issue for placing small bowls and such over them. Some (current) models have fold-down tines and provide for adjusting the spacing between them to make larger/smaller "gaps," and height-adjustable side shelves. Mine has none of that. Lightweight-items such as small plastic cups and bowls will overturn from the spray force if not anchored somehow or placed on the side shelves (using the Delicate cycle which has less spray force can help) ... can't say if newer units have reduced overall spray force. Drawers not staying open ... yours apparently is installed tilted back a little, or there's some tension pulling on the drain hose. My drawers stay open. These pics date to 2007. Could fit more plates in place of the bowl & tall pitcher. EMWV (everyone's mileage will vary). |
Post# 1028132 , Reply# 31   3/27/2019 at 15:58 (1,828 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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The installation guide for my model doesn't explicitly warn so but the steps indicate that all anchor tabs/screws should be secured -- two screws at the top/front into the countertop, and four through the sides at the lower drawer. It says the single-drawer models don't have the two top tabs (however, installation of newer single-drawer units is much different per the last time I perused the procedures). My countertop is granite and the top tabs/screws don't align properly, so I used only the side tabs/screws (two toward the back and two toward the front). The two drawers in a double-drawer unit are completely separate machines regards to running cycles. Current models may not allow both drawers to perform some functions (such as draining) simultaneously so the control boards in the system prevent that from happening by pausing one of the cycles briefly if the timing happens to hit that way. Per the pics: 1) All rack inserts removed makes for a wide-open space with no tines. 2) Two MegaRack inserts (for glassware and such) fit in one rack/drawer. 3) Two plate rack inserts doesn't work (on my model, can't say about newer units) because the space where a plate rack would go on the left side is a smidgen narrower than the space for it on the right side (see Pic 1 for reference) and the insert won't snap/anchor into position. I (generally) scrape but I don't prerinse anything. 4) Rice or pasta .. whatever it was. 5) Baked chicken. 6) Microwave oatmeal with jam added, boilover. |
Post# 1028135 , Reply# 32   3/27/2019 at 16:19 (1,828 days old) by earthling177 (Boston, MA)   |   | |
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Thank you Glenn, that is indeed very helpful! |
Post# 1028173 , Reply# 33   3/28/2019 at 08:16 (1,827 days old) by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)   |   | |
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Mine is a different model. I can not remove the tines on the glasses side. My wash arms don't have as many holes as yours.
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Post# 1028185 , Reply# 35   3/28/2019 at 10:35 (1,827 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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The model and serial number should be on a tag at the left side of the facia between the drawers, visible below the upper drawer when it's open. The serial number is coded for the month and year of production if you want to know that. The original-style spray arm had fewer/larger holes. It was redesigned with more/smaller holes. The new-style arm retrofits directly to the old-style. My unit is a DD603 bought in August 2003. It had the old-style arms, non-adjustable tines (other than removing the inserts entirely), and the side shelves don't adjust for height. Yours has the adjustable racking so should be a newer series than 603, but maybe being in Canada the changes didn't introduce all at the same time and on a different schedule than the U.S. |
Post# 1028191 , Reply# 36   3/28/2019 at 11:22 (1,827 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Steve's racking appears to be a different design than mine. I notice that this tine (Pic 1) is hooked *under* the base basket rail at the left side. It appears to be part of the structure of the base basket. My Mega Rack has an anchor "spring" that sits *in front* of that rail (Pic 2). Also two other spring/tines (Pic 3 & 4) that anchor the Mega Rack to the base rack rails at the back and front. These are what allow my Mega Racks to be removed, they're not permanently attached to the base rack. I *can* install it with the side hook under the side rail but that's not how my user guide shows it to be done. It says to position the "outer legs (front and back) of the Mega Rack, then clip it down to the side of the base. |
Post# 1028222 , Reply# 37   3/28/2019 at 17:18 (1,827 days old) by Whitetub (Montreal, Canada)   |   | |
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This is my rack. |
Post# 1028237 , Reply# 38   3/28/2019 at 20:36 (1,827 days old) by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)   |   | |
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Post# 1028254 , Reply# 39   3/28/2019 at 22:29 (1,827 days old) by Whitetub (Montreal, Canada)   |   | |
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That’s funny. Lol |