Thread Number: 77973  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Bosch or FisherPaykel Dishwasher?
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Post# 1019880   1/2/2019 at 20:45 by tomdawg (Des moines)        

I have an opportunity to buy a floor model dishwasher at a huge discounted price, the store is currently going to move and they are planning to liquidate everything...

Bosch?

or...

Fisher Paykel?

usually would buy a bosch, but two people I know bought a fisher paykel dish drawer and love them.. so now im torn.

Anyone had experience with fisher paykel?

TIA!


Post# 1019898 , Reply# 1   1/2/2019 at 22:03 by henene4 (Germany)        

These are 2 entirely different concepts of DW.

Which Bosch model would be in question?

And would it be a double or a single drawer?





My point of decission would be how you use your DW usually.



If you only do the dishes for 2 people or so, the DishDrawer would probably be the better idea.
Allows you to wash dishes as needed, and seperate items as applicable (for example normal dishes in a more efficent programm in one and a heavy wash for the other drawer with pans and such).
Also great if you do lots of cooking often. A double drawer there would allow you to prepare one dish, load one drawer with those prep dishes, run that while you prep another dish, then load the second drawer with the second prep dishes.
Never have dishes stacking, or waiting for the DW to finish.

However, no plate bigger than 12" is supposed to fit in the DishDrawers, so no baking sheets or such.
There are more parts to go wrong in total (especially in a DoubleDrawer, but either way the internal drawer lid can theoreticly go wrong and uncarefull loading could lead to malfunction IN THEORY - in practise that really depends) and overall efficency can be seen as slightly lower compared to a Bosch if you always run both drawers.
A good read of the manual also shows that no US version offers any prewash on any cycle. And cycle temperatures a generally on the lower side, but cycle times are OK.
But apparently no sensor cycle for the US.



Bosch is IMO the benchmark of "normal" DWs.
Incredibly efficent, incredibly silent, yet relatively quick and basicly always spotless performance.
The current design has been in production for several years and most parts are universal for most machines, making pumps, control boards and such verry easily avaible and reasonably priced and they probably will be around for years to come.
Not that you'd likely need it. The biggest issues here in the EU are with gunked up pathways in the water pocket and the Zeolith drying system, neither being present on US versions. Next most common failure was the heating system which is integrated in the pump which makes these repairs pretty costly for what the failure mode is.
Once you get used the racking it is incredibly versatile. With all racks in place, you can wash items up to 13.4" in the bottom rack while still having 7" in the top rack plus cuttlery tray.
With a large item spray head (a 20$ or so accerssory, possibly even included) you can wash items as high as the enterior (up to about 22" large items).
With cycles washing at up to 160F you probably have more cleaning power to select from.

However, servicing them IMO is a little more challenging as you often have to tear deep into the machine.
Drying on these machines is completly static, so to get proper drying results, opening the dishwasher right after the cycle end is advisable.
These machines only are as economic as they appear to be when run fully loaded, thus they are more geared towards the typical family running pretty simmilar loads all the time, mostly consisting of plates, cups and cuttlery.
And, well, they are nothing to be admired and noticed. Bosch dishwashers for a long time have been about doing the job simply efficently and with as little noticeability as possible. So if the buying decission is about having a verry fun and interesting machine, Bosch is probably not the way to go. A Bosch DW comes into the kitchen, does its job quietly sitting in a corner for a few years and then leaves without you ever hearing it or being annoyed by it.





But more detailed comparisson would be easier if you could provide us with information as to which models you are considering exactly.


Post# 1019914 , Reply# 2   1/2/2019 at 23:10 by tomdawg (Des moines)        
more details!!

The Bosch Dishwasher: SHP865WD5N

Fisher paykel: DD24DV2T9 N

about me:
Im building a house, which is why im on the hunt for a good new dishwasher!
I currently own a TOL Whirlpool and I hate it. takes 4.5 hours to wash dishes and does a mediocre job cleaning. we run it everyday, sometimes twice a day. My wife bakes a lot and we cook all the time.
Im more concerned about cleaning- then some reliability, I do know how to fix appliances- so it doesn't bother me to fix something.
I have a growing family so it would probably run twice a day in the near future.


Post# 1019920 , Reply# 3   1/3/2019 at 01:16 by henene4 (Germany)        

Cycle time wise both machines shouldn't take longer than 3h tops, that is on the longest cycle and option combination.



Cleaning wise both machines should hold up simmilarly in your projected usage scenario.

There is only one thing I still would have my doubts about:
While on freshly soiled loads with well scraped items a prewash in the cycle isn't really necessary, if you have either loads that sat a little longer or have larger amounts of soils in loads (for example batter from bakeing) you either have to start to rinse by hand (which defeats any savings any efficent DW could produce; keep in mind a DW can pre-rinse a full load with no more then a gallon of water) or just play "I'm feeling lucky" with what the machine would handle and what not.
The DishDrawers do have a seperate rinse cycle, but that is rather inconvenient again. And as these do not have soil sensors, the complete responsibility of ensuring proper preperation is up to you.
The "Auto" cycle on the Bosch takes all that off you.

Also, in heavy soil scenarios, the Bosch would probably get out ahead as well.
First of, it has the ability to wash far hotter then the DD (DishDrawer).
Second, the DDs only have a spray arm at the bottom of each chamber. So for example on mixing bowls the side facing top would only be cleaned by the backwash of any water splashing past it. I have heared annectdotal evidence that in certain scenarios that can even lead to a greater chance of residues in the bottom sides of mugs as there is no true spray from above.
The Bosch has a direct spray from any direction for any basket makeing loading a little less needy.
And, last but not least, the most intensive cycle for the Bosch is far more extensive compared to the DD, yet due sensor guidance never uses more then needed.



By energy label, the Bosch model you consider uses about the same as the double drawer model you are considering while fitting 2 more standard plate settings.
Both are simmilar in noise level and most other performance metrics.





But, what it really comes down to IMO is how you could see yourself using the machine.



If you think that on a normal day with no out-of-order kitchen activity you would regularly fill your current DW once with neither much space to spare in the machine nor any constraints because the machine is full, I would. probably go with the Bosch.

The third rack frees up enough space in the bottom basket to comfortably fit a days worth of dishes for your average family.
With these Bosches loading in slight layers (like tilting a bowl over a row of plates) and pretty tightly (there is verry little space between normal flat plates when fully loaded compared to other designs, but with these machines, the rule is that as long as water can get to all the surfaces of a normaly soiled item, it usually will get clean; baked on soils are the largest exceptions here) is no issue at all.
As long as you make sure that your cups and glasses still fit in the machine with the third rack in place and the middle rack adjusted so that your normal plates still fit in the lower rack, capacity is amazing.
But there have been complaints by some people that either their plates didn't fit the tines or that their glasses would interfer with the third rack or such which can greatly impact the use you can get out of the machine.

The cycle and option selection is perfect for such use cases.
On a day to day basis, you probably would use the Auto cycle with maybe the extra dry or sanitize option. That should clean even the fullest loads of daily dishes in 2h or there abouts while using typicly 4gal in a 3 or 4 fill cycle (wash rinse final rinse with an optional prewash determined by the soil sensor).
On days where things are less orderly, the half load option allows to run partial loads relatively efficently, the Speed 60 cycle is perfect for cleanup after cooking prep or bakeing and even baking trays could go in the DW with the upper rack removed and the tall item sprinkler used.
And even if the dishes should sit for a day or two, the DW will adapt to it and if you don't trust that, you just add the Extra Scrub options.




The DD would make much more sense as a meal-to-meal, occassion to occassion DW.

It does lack a soil sensor and the cycles appear to be less powerfull.
But if dishes never collect over the course of the day, that isn't even a problem.

A single drawer of the DD has rated capacity of 7 standard plate settings.
This means a medium sized family fills up a single drawer with each meal.
So after breakfast, a drawer might be full, so you run that.
For dinner, you might have more pots and pans, thus you run one drawer with plates and such and one drawer with pots and pans.
When bakeing, just run a drawer with all the utensils you used.

That was the idea of the DD from the beginning: No bulk dishwashing, but dishwashing whenever you needed it.
That's why it has less intensive, shorter cycles: Dishes never have time to dry in and there never are many dishes per cycle.

That is also where the DD becomes far more efficent then any normal DW could ever be: If you run lots of partial loads several times a day with lots of odd bits and pieces, the DD can save a lot of resources and time.

Sure you trade in some loading possibilities a large single tub machine would offer, but gain others.
Mainly, anything larger then 11" is basicly a no-go.
But otherwise, you can run a load completly made of cups and glasses, or a load purely of bowls, or a typical mixed load of a meal with some cuttlery in the cuttlery basket in on corner, glasses besides that, plates next to that and then some serving items in the free spaces.

The cycles offer different choices of wash temperature and number of post wash rinses that always do exactly what you want them to do.
Options allow for a quicker version of the main cycles, sanitizing or additional drying.




So, to put it short (all IMO):

Do you usually run one really full load a day with only the odd additional load here and there?
Then go with the Bosch.

Do you run the dishwasher often multiple times a day simply because you have so many dishes that make up loads that differ widely meal by meal or even hour by hour?
The get the DishDrawer.


Post# 1019942 , Reply# 4   1/3/2019 at 05:59 by Easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)        
I've had a F&P . . .

. . . double dish drawer for 12 or 13 years with one service call. I love them.

Instead of waiting for a larger dishwasher to get full before running, I use my F&P all the time. Therefore whenever I need something for cooking or eating, it's always clean and ready for use. If I had to replace mine, I would be hard pressed to not get another F&P dish drawer.

Jerry Gay


Post# 1019943 , Reply# 5   1/3/2019 at 06:05 by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan)        

That's a really good explanation of the differences!

Post# 1019953 , Reply# 6   1/3/2019 at 07:49 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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The DD model TomDawg cited is a "Tall" model. The upper drawer (or maybe both?) is deeper. Specifications state 12-1/4" plates. There's also a specific Sanitize option. DishDrawers always heat the water to specific temps for the main wash and final rinse (target varies per the selected cycle), extending cycle time as needed.

Mine is 15+ years. Older models had more water changes during the cycle. Several cycles on mine have prewashes. My Heavy cycle has seven water changes (prewash, rinse, rinse, wash, rinse, rinse, rinse), and heats to 150F for the main wash, 163F for the final rinse.

They reduced the number of water changes on newer models to meet the more stringent water/energy factors.


Post# 1019955 , Reply# 7   1/3/2019 at 08:38 by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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I had a 2003 model that came with a brand new house....given a choice, I would have had two double drawers, one on each side of the sink....but honestly, a dishdrawer on one side, and a full size dishwasher on the other is more practical...

the top drawer seem to get favored because of the simplicity of quick loading....

replaced the motor/impellor once....not even a 10 minute job...

upgraded to the newer lids, which now flex if a dish is too tall.....

some newer models offered a sort of top sprayer, but not really needed...

if one unit does break, you still have a backup, if you have to wait for parts or service....

easy to service, as you can pull out one unit at a time, without having to pull the whole box unit out...



one thing I liked about F&P....you may have a 2003 model, and run into an issue several years later, the newer design fit the older machine....for example, there is a plastic rod that retracts the hoses, which may snap....the issue has been corrected on newer models, and this correction will fit the older models...same for the lids...

the only time I seen a DD leak, was whoever installed it, could not attach it to the granite counter, so drilled holes in the side....right through the arms that pull the lid down....lids can't close, leaks can happen...


________________________________________


I installed a Bosch for my brother....many unique features....his offers a Top Rack only wash, and the top rack can be removed for tall pans....all stainless, very durable.....



since your building a new house....is it possible to make a few changes and install both?......you would really have the best of both worlds....and if you cook or entertain a lot, it would be a godsend...


______________________________

note too.....both of these machines offer a leak detector, the machine will stop, drain and shut off before any major damage occurs...




Post# 1019991 , Reply# 8   1/3/2019 at 14:24 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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I'd second both!

We had a similar dilemma a few years back. The older Bosch that came with our house worked well, but we found out that it was on the recall list (control panel fires), so we had to do something. As part of the recall, they would either provide the fixes/updates for free, or give us (I belive) half-off of a brand new Bosch unit. The older Bosch cleaned very well, but was middle-of-the-line with only two racks, and didn't quite match the other appliances, so we decided it was a good time to upgrade.

It was between a new Bosch and the F&P DishDrawers... and we ended up with a 3-rack 800-series Bosch due to the flexibility to hold larger items, and our opportunity to get it at a good price. Couldn't be happier with the purchase - it's super quiet, and the "auto" setting washes beautifully without any guesswork, as does the express setting when we need it.

But that being said, there are plenty of times when the pair of smaller capacity units, or even just additional capacity, would be beneficial - and I could see a single DishDrawer being a perfect complement to a full-size Bosch.


Post# 1020004 , Reply# 9   1/3/2019 at 17:24 by appnut (TX)        
Your current WP

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Tom, what settings are you using to yield 4.5 hours?  And what's your water heart set at?  I have a KitchenAid-produced Kenmore Elite. The only way I can approach that length is if I use the AutoClean or Pots & Pans cycle with Sani-Rinse Temp; Target Clean (Turbo Zone) and Heated Dry.  My water heater is set at 120 degrees And I'm the originator of the term BobLoad and I don't rinse and barely scrape.  


Post# 1020010 , Reply# 10   1/3/2019 at 17:39 by Whatsername (Loveland, CO)        

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See my thread here about the F&P for some good responses. I've had the double Tall model almost a year now and it's still great, I find it holds a ton of dishes in the top drawer alone; I use the bottom drawer only when I'm really cooking up a storm.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Whatsername's LINK


Post# 1020011 , Reply# 11   1/3/2019 at 17:43 by fisherpaykel (BC Canada)        
Get both! one on each side of the sink

You can guess my first thought on DW recommendation but I agree with Yogitunes logical suggestion of both. Aside from putting large baking trays etc in the Bosch or hopefully a large single sink you may find that easy one step opening of a DishDrawer to load glasses, cups, cutlery and plates rather than pulling out 3 racks makes it your go to machine for everyday dishes. My DD are also about 13 years old and no service call. If you have not decided on other appliances take a look at F&P's, they are filled with logical convenience features, I have their  laundry and refrigerator as well, happy with all. Take your time and enjoy the new house planning.


Post# 1020034 , Reply# 12   1/3/2019 at 21:28 by tomdawg (Des moines)        

Appnut, I currently use heavy with most options on, sometimes i turn on the turbo zone if I have something back there.. I will say, turbo zone is pretty impressive. I started using the 1 hour cycle at first and worked my way up to the heaviest setting. maybe im just picky.

I have never thought of two on each side, great idea.. problem is, im trying to buy one that is to be discounted floor model and all they have is the double DD :/


Post# 1020037 , Reply# 13   1/3/2019 at 21:49 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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There's also the 36" DishDrawer Wide (and Tall) (available only in single-drawer models) that takes a double-row of plates, or whatever else one may want to load. It, of course, requires non-standard cabinetry dimensions for installation. I've seen two of those installed to either side of a kitchen sink.


Post# 1020064 , Reply# 14   1/4/2019 at 05:24 by appnut (TX)        

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Tom, if you are basing cycle length on what the time display shows when you push start, it's deceiving.  If you're using the Sani-Rinse option, I have found that by the end of the cycle, it's 1/2 an hour less time that what showed on the display.  If opting for sani-rinse as well as heated dry, with today's energy standard, the time for heated dry isn't worth the time investment.  When sani-rinse option is use, heated dry the element only comes on for a couple of minutes every 7 minutes.  I've also found with sani--rinse, things dry as good, if not better with the residual heat and not using the time for heated dry.  My dishwasher also has a little fan that comes on after dry cycle has been on for about 209 minutes and keeps running for an hour after cycle is complete.  Early on, I found out the little fan never comes on when sani-rinse and even the extra dry option is used.  I can choose a heated dry of either 50 minute of 1:29 minute.  


Post# 1021637 , Reply# 15   1/18/2019 at 21:15 by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ)        
Perfect timing!

I recently moved into a new apartment. I suspect the non-working dishwasher (Caloric DUS404-19) is the original from the early 60's.

My landlord has told me I can deduct the cost of a replacement from my rent. I have a really bad back and would like a dishdrawer. I live alone and with my work schedule I don't do a lot of cooking. It takes me 2-3 days to fill a standard dishwasher.

The owners have retired and will definitely sell the place when my 2 year lease runs out. I really want to buy this apartment so whatever dishwasher I buy I'll hopefully wind up using for many years.

As far as features, the only must-have is a sani-rinse option.

Any problems with the BOL Fisher-Paykel? I'll have to re-read the thread, but are they the only game in town?

Thanks,

Jim


Post# 1021640 , Reply# 16   1/18/2019 at 22:39 by appnut (TX)        

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Jim, would you be able to take a picture of the old Caloric?  I hope you'll be able to buy the apartment when the time comes.  


Post# 1021862 , Reply# 17   1/20/2019 at 16:26 by SudsMaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

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I've had my MOL Bosch for about 16 years now. I was notified of the upgrade and opted to have the control panel updated. I wasn't real impressed with the tech they sent out, but the work didn't create any new problems.

Lately I discovered the machine needed repairs: the drain check valve (or "non-return valve") had crumbled and was blocking the drain. Additionally, the inlet fill valve was seeping so that the machine would very slowly fill up with fresh water.

I just finished fixing both problems. Total cost for parts was less than $30. My labor was free but if you look at the thread I created, it wasn't all that easy.

The check valve that failed was original to the Bosch... it seemed to be of an inferior type of rubber. Black, which swelled and crumbled over time. Perhaps some sort of natural rubber, I don't know. The replacement looks like it's silicone rubber, translucent colorless, which should last much longer.

My question about the F&P dish drawer is what was mentioned already: that it's twice as many parts - separate fill valves, drain pumps, recirculation pumps, heaters, etc. So twice as much to go wrong. Also the interiors (when I looked at them) are plastic, not stainless. It also seems logical that two separate drawers will never have the total capacity of a single chamber dishwasher. Plus the F&P's seem to be hard to find. The Bosch can also do a Sanitize (161F) wash. Don't know about the F&P.

On the F&P's side, the double drawer feature means one can run smaller loads more often. This may have the advantage of limiting the bacterial or fungal growth that might occur with dirty dishes etc waiting in the DW for days to accumulate a full load. I wind up running my Bosch about 3 times a week. Almost always with the Sanitize option as well as the longest "Power Scrub Plus" cycle. Takes between 100 and 120 minutes per cycle. Not a problem, usually I run it at night.

People seem to be happy with their F&P machines. I guess it depends on the situation.


Post# 1021876 , Reply# 18   1/20/2019 at 17:45 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

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Dual-drawer units use a single-body inlet valve with dual solenoids to feed the upper or lower (assuming that hasn't changed on the current iteration).

Each drawer has a heating element, which is a ceramic disc with integral temp sensor and overheat thermal fuse (non-resettable). No failures on mine thus far.

Cycle programming and temperature points have changed through the years. Mine has Heavy being the highest-temp cycle, heats the final rinse to 163F.

Current models have a specific Sanitize option (Heavy and Medium/Normal cycles) - increases final rinse temperature to 158F. Description says "kills 99.9 of bacteria." A flag on the display at end of the cycle indicates whether the target temperature was reached and held for the required period of time.

Plastic tub is no cause for alarm. Plastic insulates better and is quieter by nature (less resonance from water spray).

Regards to pumps ... they use a variation of the SmartDrive motor. 3-phase stator mounted into the tub (drawer), with a removable dual-impeller rotor. Upper impeller is recirculate, lower is drain. The rotation direction reverses accordingly. One pump/motor per drawer. Stators rarely fail. Rotors are a "wear" part but are easily replaced and inexpensive compared to a Bosch pump (changed one of mine in 15 years).

Some details on the design have changed over the years ... slightly different rotor, different filter arrangement. Pics below reflect my DD603.

1 - rotor
2 - outer gray ring is the heating element, middle gray disc is the stator
3 - rotor installed
4 - stainless steel filter disc and drain filter
5 - spray arm sits directly atop the recirculation impeller


  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 5         View Full Size
Post# 1022373 , Reply# 19   1/25/2019 at 00:53 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

My two cents:

At this point in the game, I would try very hard to buy a dishwasher with a built-in water softener if you can, particularly if you have hard water piped to the dishwasher. Several brands, including Bosch and F&P sell them. I am not exactly sure how much more a model with a built-in softener costs, but in my area the water hardness varies throughout the year (from nearly 0 to 4 or 6 grains/gallon) depending on where they source the water from, and even at that low water hardness (people often say that is "soft" water) the automatic built-in water softener means I've never experienced any troubles with the "old" formulas that had phosphate, nor did I notice anything when they changed the formulas to the "hobbled" ones to piss off the population and I had no trouble either with the new(er) formulas (the ones where they finally decided that having detergent in the dishwasher detergent was OK). The "new" "16X" or whatever they print on the package formulas have been cleaning even better now than any other formulas, but the fact that the machine always used soft(ened) water never caused problems and has always helped.

In my experience, it's always helpful to get three copies of each dish/tableware you expect to run thru the machine, and bring them to a dealer, try to load them in the dishwasher. I used to have a Bosch dw that I really liked, and I expected to get another one when it came time to shop for a dw, but they had changed the racks such that I'd have to either buy new dishes or not be able to load as much, which was undesirable. I've learned the "bring 3 copies" because I had foolishly brought only one copy with me a few years before, and, while it looked like I could fit say, bowls, in the rack of the particular machine I bought, it was only when I got it home and installed that I learned that, yes, one bowl would fit, but if you wanted to put more than one close together, you wouldn't be able to, you had to leave an empty slot or two between them, which severely lowered the capacity of the machine for whatever the trouble dish(es) was/were.

As for the Fisher&Paykel dw, I find it an intriguing approach, and I know a lot of people who have or had one and like them just fine. I am particularly attracted to the idea of loading delicate/less soiled dishes in one drawer and heavy soiled/pots&pans in the next one. And I also like the idea of loading one machine while the other is working or has the clean dishes.

The problems I've heard some, by far not all people, had, seem to me to be linked to the lid. One would think that if you can put dishes and slide the drawer closed, you wouldn't have any problems with the lid closing the top of the tank and running the cycle. That is a very "engineer-like" mindset, I've found out, and people like that (including me) apparently aren't nearly as creative as people in general, because either the dishes find a way to shift themselves or people are really cramming things there and forcing the stuff inside as they "shut" the drawer, because then something is above the top of the drawer and jamming the lid, which can't close. Even that seems to be easy to fix, if one is OK with the floor getting wet, which should not be a problem in a kitchen, but many people have floors (cork or wood, for example) which deteriorate under a lot of spilled water.

I guess it also depends a lot on mindset -- one of my friends, who dragged me to the store with him and wife to help choose a new machine, brought with them a giant cutting board or cookie sheet, I can't remember now, 20 years later, and was adamant that any machine they bought had to fit that thing, instead of buying a machine which would be best for everything else and wash that one thing by hand. I kind of understand, because I also dislike hand washing stuff, but I am OK with running multiple cycles until everything is clean, and he was not, so, to fit that one giant thing, he picked a machine that could fit fewer dishes because of the rack layout and he ended up doing more dishes by hand. Oh, well. Anyway, if someone wants to fit very large cookie sheets and/or cutting boards, the drawers may or may not be able to fit them, particularly if you are not OK with laying them horizontally on top of the plates or some other arrangement.

In any case, in my experience, many people I know were happy with both Bosch and F&P, provided their dishes fit the racks.

Good luck!


Post# 1022451 , Reply# 20   1/25/2019 at 16:26 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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>> My question about the F&P dish drawer is what was mentioned already: that it's twice as many parts -
>> separate fill valves, drain pumps, recirculation pumps, heaters, etc. So twice as much to go wrong.


That may be true, but it's up to you whether you consider that an argument AGAINST or an argument FOR the design.


For example, if I have a single big dishwasher, any size load is a cycle. 200 full loads and 200 half loads is 400 cycles on each part in the machine - the heater, the spray arm, etc. In the drawer pair, washing the same loads, they would only have averaged 300 full cycles per drawer. So there is a possibility, all else being equal, for the split units to outlast the single unit due to the lesser cycle accumulation.

There are also cases where your redundancy is beneficial. Spring a leak in a normal dishwasher, and you are handwashing in the sink. Spring a leak in a drawer, and you've only lost half of your capacity. That could be a HUGE help if you are, say, hosting Thanksgiving for a large family.


It's similar to how things work in aviation. Statistically speaking, aircraft with 4-engines aren't more reliable than those with 2, nor are the twins more reliable than singles, all because more engines = more moving parts = more chances for problems = more maintenance required. But there are good reasons why more engines are preferred for long oceanic flights.


Post# 1022480 , Reply# 21   1/25/2019 at 20:27 by SudsMaster (East of SF, West of Eden, California)        

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I don't quite buy that a double drawer machine will be fewer cycles and less wear and tear on the components. That because with a standard dishwasher, at least in my case, I accumulate dishes etc. until it's a full load, and then I run it. This turns out to be about 2-3 times a week. With a dish drawer setup, I'd probably load the upper drawer the most (easier to access) and run that nightly. Even if I switched between drawers, it would still be an average of 3.5 loads per week per drawer.

Mind you, I have nothing really against F&P DD DW's. The more variety the merrier. I just don't accept some of the arguments in their favor.

Besides my SHU43 Bosch, my only other modern dishwasher experience is with a 1997 Frigidaire Gallery DW. It was a POS. Its main problem is too much plastic. The fine filter screen was a large and limp plastic piece of junk that warped and allowed debris into the recirculation pump, clogging the wash arms regularly. After that I got the Bosch and it is a far better design, albeit not without its own minor issues. Mainly the Bosch DW philosophy is longer wash times, higher temps, and less forceful water spray. It works quite well but does not lend itself to overloading the washer.

I also have two top loading KA dishwashers; both work, but I rarely fire them up. But they could easily wash large objects. I also have a few older KA under counter DW's but they are not in service (ran out of counter openings!). One of these days I'm gonna figure out how to carve a DW cubby out of the enclosed patio kitchen counter area.

The water here is reasonably soft - 3 to 5 grains when tested. But it's enough to cause problems in some circumstance. My understanding is it's rather difficult to find a DW sold new in America with a built-in water softener. Older DW detergent formulations had complex phosphates that did a great job of both softening hard water and fighting hard water mineral buildup inside the DW.


Post# 1022501 , Reply# 22   1/26/2019 at 05:28 by Easyspindry (Winston-Salem, NC)        
It's been an interesting thread.

I have had F&P Dish Drawers for about 12 years. They work wonderfully well. They replaced a Hobart built Insinkerator which was exactly the same as a KA. I have been very happy with the drawers. When I need something, it's always clean and ready for me to use. When I had a large dishwasher, seems like I was constantly having to wash something by hand in order to use it because I did not like to run the dishwasher until it was full.

I would have no qualms about getting another set of drawers when the time comes. I've had one repair -- a new board in one of the drawers. But while waiting for the part to come in, I had the other drawer to use so I was never without a dishwasher.

The drawers are quiet and clean well.

Jerry Gay


Post# 1022594 , Reply# 23   1/26/2019 at 19:59 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

I have 1,017 cycles on my top drawer, 523 on the lower. Timeframe 8/23/2003 to present. I've been making an effort to continually alternate between them for routine use. Ran both today after a lunch gathering.


Post# 1022595 , Reply# 24   1/26/2019 at 20:16 by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)        

iowabear's profile picture

If I was building a new kitchen I would love to have two of them, side-by-side instead of stacked.  It would be so convenient.  Risk would be if they stop making them someday.


Post# 1022608 , Reply# 25   1/26/2019 at 21:12 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

It seems to me that the risk of them not making the F&P DishDrawers is small, not only because there is a slice of the market that really likes them, but also because they are the standard 24" wide, so if something someday, god forbid, that stops them from being available, the worst that happens is you need to remove the cabinet that was under one of them and install another standard machine, and, in case you have the stacked model, you'd already be all set anyway.

It's much worse for people who bought models that are 30" or 36" wide (I can't remember if F&P had any, but I think it was Dacor or Thermador that offered something in that space, no pun intended). Those people would have to remodel the cabinets at the very least or put an insert or something.

If I ever remodel my kitchen and the subject of having more than one dishwasher presents itself, I might get a stacked/doubleDishDrawer in addition to a standard machine, I'd think that would be the best of both worlds, being able to run 3 loads at once or just a small load etc.


Post# 1022633 , Reply# 26   1/27/2019 at 04:01 by Eronie (Flushing Michigan)        

I have heard that Jewish people like the F&P dishdrawers because in a Kosher kitchen you have to keep your meat an non meat dishes pots an pans separate.

Post# 1028099 , Reply# 27   3/27/2019 at 09:42 by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

I've had two Bosch dishwashers, in my two previous houses. I now moved to my third house, and it came with the Fisher Paykel dishdrawers.

They are ok. But they are a pain to load. You cannot achieve a Bobload in them. They should have a better racking system. If you have a full load of glasses, they fit fine on the glasses half of the machine, but on the plate side, the bottom of the rack is too wide open. They don't stand up straight. They fall sideways when you open the machine. Same thing with salad or soup bowls It is the worst dishwasher when it comes to the racking system. In the past I have owned a GE Potscrubber, a Maytag Reverse-Rack, a Kenmore Ultra-wash, and two Bosch dishwashers, and the Fisher Paykel is the worst dishwasher when it comes to packing it in. They should move the row of plates to the center of the machine, and glasses and cups on each side of the machine.

You can stick in tall wine glasses, which is a good thing, if you can make them stand up properly. Don't try to put in cookies sheets, or lasagna baking dishes. Unless you want to use 3/4 of the space for one item.

For washing results, it's good. But not the greatest. The Bosch was a better machine when it comes washing ability.
The good thing about the Fisher and Paykel, is the fast cycle. 53 minutes total. 30 Minute wash, followed by 2 rinses. It cleans pretty much everything perfectly. Especially if you pre-rinse. And you don't have a choice to pre-rinse your plates with a Fisher and Paykel.

And when I am loading or unloading the machine, the drawers always close back. I don't know if it's because it is not installed properly, but it is very annoying. When putting away a full load of clean dishes, you have to constantly reopen the drawers after taking out a few pieces.

Would I buy another set of drawers if they need to be replaced? NO. Can I live with them for now? Yes.


Post# 1028114 , Reply# 28   3/27/2019 at 12:39 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

"... you don't have a choice to pre-rinse your plates with a Fisher and Paykel." Is that comment referring to a Rinse/Hold cycle? Mine (16yo) has it (although I never use it). A quick look at a user manual for a current model on F&P's web site indicates they still have the cycle.

Loading involves a learning curve ... and also depends on the dishware comprising any given load. The rack tines are too tall, creates an issue for placing small bowls and such over them. Some (current) models have fold-down tines and provide for adjusting the spacing between them to make larger/smaller "gaps," and height-adjustable side shelves. Mine has none of that.

Lightweight-items such as small plastic cups and bowls will overturn from the spray force if not anchored somehow or placed on the side shelves (using the Delicate cycle which has less spray force can help) ... can't say if newer units have reduced overall spray force.

Drawers not staying open ... yours apparently is installed tilted back a little, or there's some tension pulling on the drain hose. My drawers stay open.

These pics date to 2007. Could fit more plates in place of the bowl & tall pitcher. EMWV (everyone's mileage will vary).


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Post# 1028117 , Reply# 29   3/27/2019 at 13:06 by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

When I said I have no choice to pre-rinse, I meant to rinse the plates at the sink, so there is no food left on the plate. Just so the drain hoses from the dishwasher don't get clogged at the sink. My machines wouldn't drain after a month at the new house. The service guy that came showed me how to undo the drain hose under the sink, and how to clean them if it happens again. So since this day, I make sure that there is almost no food scraps left on my plates.
I can put the plate tines down, they fold completely. Which is good for big items, but if you put glasses or cups, they roll around. I will post pictures of my machine later on.


Post# 1028122 , Reply# 30   3/27/2019 at 13:31 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

I am very curious about the F&P.

I have two questions at this time.

One is how did you install the machines? Can one get away with just the two screws against the countertop like most other dishwashers do, or does one need to fasten it by the sides of the cabinets? What are the advantages and disadvantages between the screws on the side of the cabinet (front of the dishwasher) vs. screws inside the cabinet (by removing the drawer and screwing from the inside)?

The second question is perhaps a bit weirder. I remember when the DishDrawers came out about 20 years ago, there were several TV reporters (so, not the best, most reliable sources to begin with) claiming that one of the advantages of the DishDrawers was that one could customize the machines -- for example, one could run one drawer as a "half-load" machine and always have clean dishes, or one could run each drawer with a different cycle and they implied that one could remove all the inserts from the rack and rearrange them, so, for example, one could reconfigure one drawer to have both glasses inserts and one drawer to have both plates inserts, and run one drawer in the China cycle while the other one runs a Normal or Heavy Duty cycle. So, was this possible, is this still possible, or have they changed the racks so one always needs to have a glass and a plates insert in the same drawer? I'm asking because if it still works (or has ever worked) out like they described 20 years ago, maybe Steve could just put the two glass inserts in one drawer and the two plates inserts in another and make it into what most dishwashers have for a racking system.

Thanks in advance,
-- Paulo.


Post# 1028132 , Reply# 31   3/27/2019 at 15:58 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

The installation guide for my model doesn't explicitly warn so but the steps indicate that all anchor tabs/screws should be secured -- two screws at the top/front into the countertop, and four through the sides at the lower drawer. It says the single-drawer models don't have the two top tabs (however, installation of newer single-drawer units is much different per the last time I perused the procedures).

My countertop is granite and the top tabs/screws don't align properly, so I used only the side tabs/screws (two toward the back and two toward the front).

The two drawers in a double-drawer unit are completely separate machines regards to running cycles. Current models may not allow both drawers to perform some functions (such as draining) simultaneously so the control boards in the system prevent that from happening by pausing one of the cycles briefly if the timing happens to hit that way.

Per the pics:

1) All rack inserts removed makes for a wide-open space with no tines.

2) Two MegaRack inserts (for glassware and such) fit in one rack/drawer.

3) Two plate rack inserts doesn't work (on my model, can't say about newer units) because the space where a plate rack would go on the left side is a smidgen narrower than the space for it on the right side (see Pic 1 for reference) and the insert won't snap/anchor into position.

I (generally) scrape but I don't prerinse anything.

4) Rice or pasta .. whatever it was.

5) Baked chicken.

6) Microwave oatmeal with jam added, boilover.


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Post# 1028135 , Reply# 32   3/27/2019 at 16:19 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Thank you Glenn, that is indeed very helpful!

Post# 1028173 , Reply# 33   3/28/2019 at 08:16 by whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

Mine is a different model. I can not remove the tines on the glasses side. My wash arms don't have as many holes as yours.



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Post# 1028183 , Reply# 34   3/28/2019 at 10:27 by earthling177 (Boston, MA)        

Steve, that's kinda weird that the rack is fixed, you seem to have a pretty high-end model even if it's a couple of years old or so.

Take a look at the user guide, it might tell you how to remove the rack(s).

In case you don't have the user guide, I've been taking a look at their website (morbid curiosity), and the link to the user guide is below (pages 17-19, I think, talk about the racks).

Good luck!


CLICK HERE TO GO TO earthling177's LINK


Post# 1028185 , Reply# 35   3/28/2019 at 10:35 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

The model and serial number should be on a tag at the left side of the facia between the drawers, visible below the upper drawer when it's open. The serial number is coded for the month and year of production if you want to know that.

The original-style spray arm had fewer/larger holes. It was redesigned with more/smaller holes. The new-style arm retrofits directly to the old-style.

My unit is a DD603 bought in August 2003. It had the old-style arms, non-adjustable tines (other than removing the inserts entirely), and the side shelves don't adjust for height. Yours has the adjustable racking so should be a newer series than 603, but maybe being in Canada the changes didn't introduce all at the same time and on a different schedule than the U.S.


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Post# 1028191 , Reply# 36   3/28/2019 at 11:22 by DADoES (TX,U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Steve's racking appears to be a different design than mine.

I notice that this tine (Pic 1) is hooked *under* the base basket rail at the left side. It appears to be part of the structure of the base basket.

My Mega Rack has an anchor "spring" that sits *in front* of that rail (Pic 2).

Also two other spring/tines (Pic 3 & 4) that anchor the Mega Rack to the base rack rails at the back and front. These are what allow my Mega Racks to be removed, they're not permanently attached to the base rack.

I *can* install it with the side hook under the side rail but that's not how my user guide shows it to be done. It says to position the "outer legs (front and back) of the Mega Rack, then clip it down to the side of the base.


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Post# 1028222 , Reply# 37   3/28/2019 at 17:18 by Whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

This is my rack.

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Post# 1028237 , Reply# 38   3/28/2019 at 20:36 by iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas)        
Ok, I just have to:

iheartmaytag's profile picture
Nice Rack.

😁


Post# 1028254 , Reply# 39   3/28/2019 at 22:29 by Whitetub (Montreal, Canada)        

Thats funny. Lol




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