Thread Number: 78361  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Problem with Kenmore 80
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Post# 1023937   2/7/2019 at 22:50 by Stan (Napa CA)        

stan's profile picture
Machine is about 19 years old.
Pic shows model #
On occasion, I've have found wet cloths after machine has completed all cycles.
At first thought I had a clutch problem as machine pumps and drains well.
Upon closer observation I notice that when machine starts to spin (on either first spin or second) it will stop for no reason, any where 1 to 10 seconds then resume? Not every time but..
Stood over it one day, and noticed that on its last spin the pump engaged and pumped out water, timer keept ticking, and pointer moved to "spin" but didn't.. Timer ticked along..pump kept pumping, pointer keept moving and finally ended. But never did it's final spin?
I'm able to reset to spin and get it to, but..
I'm "assuming" I need to replace timer, but thought I'd check here first.
Thank guys
P.S lid switch was by passed long ago


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Post# 1023939 , Reply# 1   2/7/2019 at 23:10 by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)        

Your washer was manufactured in the 52nd week of 2002. The pause is normal and the washer needs it to engage spin. Before this pause the washer is supposed to drain only, no spin. When it pauses the gearcase then starts the spin. Your problem is the neutral drain assembly in the gearcase is no longer working if it is draining and spinning at the same time. When it goes for the final spin that pause has to come from the timer so the gearcase will engage spin. If there is no pause, the timer is faulty. If it pauses but does not start spinning the neutral drain assembly will have to be replaced. This involves removing and disassembling the gearcase or the gearcase can be replaced as a whole.

Post# 1023941 , Reply# 2   2/7/2019 at 23:32 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Thanks for the reply

stan's profile picture
"Pause" Maybe was a bad choice of words on my part..
The washer will start to spin, and pump, but stops and dose nothing for for 1 to 10 seconds then resumes spin and pump. This happens occasionally.
Sometimes (not everytime) on the last spin, it will sometimes just never spin, unless I reset the timer, then it will.
If my neutral drain assembly is bad, would I still be able to reset timer, and get it to spin?


Post# 1023942 , Reply# 3   2/7/2019 at 23:52 by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)        

Yes you can reset the timer and it will spin even with a faulty neutral drain. The purpose of the neutral drain is to empty the tub before the machine starts to spin. So it should drain first with no spin, timer pause, and when the timer resumes power to the motor it should spin and the pump is also working at the same time. Many of these washers will operate for years with the neutral drain not working. In this case it immediately starts spinning while draining, then the timer pause and it continues spinning with the pump operating. Most folks donít even realize itís not working correctly. To diagnose your issue observe the pump out. There has to be a pause in the timer after the tub has drained. If there is no pause the timer is faulty. If it pauses then resumes without spinning the problem is the neutral drain. It is entirely possible that both the timer and neutral drain are bad. The washer should not spin while the tub is being emptied. Sorry for the long story.

Post# 1023943 , Reply# 4   2/7/2019 at 23:56 by Stan (Napa CA)        
I know that

stan's profile picture
My neutral drain is worn, and has been for a few years.. Sometimes it works, Somtimes it doesn't. However when it doesn't.. It will complete the wash or rinse then go into pumping and spinning at the same time. Hard on the clutch, and I've replaced the clutch once before...
I've avoided the job of replacing the neutral drain assembly cuz it seems like a mess. This new problem is odd to me.. In that it won't spin at all (on last spin) unless I reset?


Post# 1023945 , Reply# 5   2/8/2019 at 00:10 by Stan (Napa CA)        
It's possessed LOL

stan's profile picture
Have a small load going now, and I'm watching it. It went through the wash cycle fine, then filled and rinsed, paused then drained like it should (neutral drain worked) paused, but then it spray rinsed before it started spinning? I pushed the dial then pulled it back out and it's started spinning normall ?

Post# 1023946 , Reply# 6   2/8/2019 at 00:15 by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)        

once you know for sure whether or not itís pausing after every pumpout youíll know where the problem lies.

Post# 1023948 , Reply# 7   2/8/2019 at 00:46 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Could a couple worn/broken "teeth" on the spin gear randomly get positioned to not engage ... thus sometimes it spins, sometimes not?† It passes over the bad spot once it gets going?

The neutral drain repair kit includes a new spin gear.


Post# 1023949 , Reply# 8   2/8/2019 at 00:49 by shanenc14 (Tennessee, USA)        

I just replaced the neutral drain pack in my machine, and there were times that mine did the same thing. Pump out water, pause, and pump again until the final spin was over, but the tub would never spin, only pump... Sure sounds like neutral drain pack.

Post# 1023954 , Reply# 9   2/8/2019 at 03:15 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Last load

stan's profile picture
Filled, washed, paused, then neutral drain did not kick in so it did a rinse spin. Stoped paused then filled with rinse water, agitated, stoped and paused, then repeated (no neutral drain)
Spun good and completed. Don't know what it will do next time..
But it is pausing!


Post# 1023955 , Reply# 10   2/8/2019 at 03:23 by Stan (Napa CA)        
OH

stan's profile picture
But it I see on the first spin, that it paused first, (wash water) went into spin, but stoped for 5 seconds then resumed ?

Post# 1023956 , Reply# 11   2/8/2019 at 03:59 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Point of information:† Regards to stops or pauses spin for x seconds then resumes ... does that mean the motor shuts off, or the basket stops spinning but the motor is still running?


Post# 1023957 , Reply# 12   2/8/2019 at 04:05 by shanenc14 (Tennessee, USA)        

If neutral drain is functioning correctly your typical cycle should be as follows:

- Fill (Wash)
- Agitate (Wash)
- Pause
- Drain
- Pause
- Spin
- Fill (Rinse)
- Agitate (Rinse)
- Pause
- Drain
- Pause
- Final Spin w/ 2 spray rinses

If your machine is pausing when it's supposed to, then it's doubtful that there's anything wrong with your timer, and the root cause is most likely the neutral drain pack in the transmission. Check out these YouTube videos for neutral drain pack replacement instructions.

It's a bit messy, but a fairly easy repair, and MUCH cheaper than buying a new or refurbished transmission.

There are others here that are much more knowledgeable than me, and I'm sure they'll give you additional information.










Post# 1023963 , Reply# 13   2/8/2019 at 07:02 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Spinning issues With A WP DD Washer

combo52's profile picture

Hi Stan, if you can always get it to spin by resetting the timer to another final spin, you have a bad timer.

 

I does sound like the transmission is worn but they usually keep going till they get very noisy, if the washer is starting to make a rasping sound when it is spinning at full speed the spin gear is wearing out.

 

Transmission repairs are a bit messy, if you want to avoid the mess just buy a new transmission, it is still cheaper than a new washer.

 

John L.


Post# 1023966 , Reply# 14   2/8/2019 at 08:13 by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)        

When the washer pauses all function should cease(motor stops running) then resume afterward. Sounds like this is happening on yours from your observation so problem is in the gearcase.

Post# 1023988 , Reply# 15   2/8/2019 at 12:05 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Glen

stan's profile picture
The machine may start to spin and make one to three revaluations, then stop..no sound at all for a few seconds..like someone pulled the plug, then kick back on and resume spin.
@ John.. No rasping sound on spin yet. The neutral drain has worked intermitantly for a few years now. When not working, I just get two spins for one. I was able to live with that..
This stoping and starting, and no spinning is a new issue.
I should vidieo it so y'all can see.


Post# 1024040 , Reply# 16   2/8/2019 at 21:28 by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
did you check if it was not a problem with the timer motor had a 1993 inglis superb II washer that had 2 repairs during its life use first one a new motor second was a timer motor replacement and do you washer do that on other cycles? if it do not do that on other cycles then its a timer motor problem

Post# 1024041 , Reply# 17   2/8/2019 at 21:44 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi Pierre

stan's profile picture
I haven't checked, but I will now.
Thanks


Post# 1024129 , Reply# 18   2/9/2019 at 19:07 by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
stan

pierreandreply4's profile picture
stan hope you will find the source of your washer problem and be able to repair it and wanted to wish you good luck

Post# 1024206 , Reply# 19   2/10/2019 at 12:59 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Latest observation

stan's profile picture
I decided to use the perm press cycle as suggested.. Couldn't tell the difference between this and reg cycle. However I notice that the pointer on the dial does not coincide with with the function.
The pic was taken after washer finished and stoped. If I turn the pointer where it points to "off" and pull knob, the machine goes into agitation! (No water) and is also fast agitation, regardless of where to agitation speed selector is moved to?
I'm going to get a new neutral drain assembly..(I've procrastinated taking that job on) but this has to be a twisted timer too?
Right?


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Post# 1024207 , Reply# 20   2/10/2019 at 13:29 by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
stan

pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello stan first I went to wish you luck on the repair and maybe you should replace at the same time the timer and check at the same time the motor just my toughs here

Post# 1024209 , Reply# 21   2/10/2019 at 13:43 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Stan,

The dry-agitate is not a malfunction.† Notice the little flag in the Off section.† No other Off section on your timer has it.† Some direct-drive timers have a dry-agitate increment in an Off section as a diagnostic tool (although they're not all marked for it on the cycle legend).† Apparently that's the case on yours.

Many timers that don't have dry-agitate in an Off range have it instead at the last 2 mins of wash agitation on the Regular/Normal cycle.

The dry-agitate increment is a diagnostic tool to test neutral drain without having to fill the tub for agitation.† The neutral drain mechanism requires agitation (after a spin) to reset for the next neutral drain.† Set the timer at the dry-agitate, let it run for minute (should be enough, neutral drain reset should take only about 10 seconds of agitation but longer time may be needed if 1) the mechanism is worn or 2) the transmission oil is thickened from cold or age).† Stop the machine, turn the timer to spin and start it.† Neutral drain should occur.† Stop and restart again, neutral drain lock should release and spin occurs.


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This post was last edited 02/10/2019 at 14:44
Post# 1024238 , Reply# 22   2/10/2019 at 18:59 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Dry Agitate position

combo52's profile picture

Was also the suds-return position for the optional Suds-Saver accessory that WP-KM sold for DD washers, however by the time your machine was built WP had given up on the add-on SS accessory  due to problems with it.

 

John L.


Post# 1024251 , Reply# 23   2/10/2019 at 20:36 by DaveAMKrayoGuy (Oak Park, MI)        
This symptom may be similar:

daveamkrayoguy's profile picture

My Kenmore currently made around that time or likely years before has that same problem, and it seems anytime that the Speed is set for Fast Spin...

 

The clothes are around the agitator, in a completely wet and massive heap, while a groaning noise and small trickle of water attempt to be drained out...

 

I warn my wife if she ever washes the clothes (though she never does) in that speed combination never to put all that wetness right into the dryer, just to do as the solution to this is, open the lid and close it as the spin begins, or simply, as I had done since the beginning of this problem, to turn the timer dial back to the spin or to the spin on the next cycle (permanent press) our seeing as this machine has Extra Rinse for both Reg. and P.P. just use either one there...

 

 

 

-- Dave


Post# 1024278 , Reply# 24   2/11/2019 at 03:08 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Glen

stan's profile picture
Thank you for pointing that out! For as long as Ive had this machine I've never noticed that.. hardly have ever used that cycle either.
So what say you? Timer, or neutral drain?


Post# 1025468 , Reply# 25   2/23/2019 at 23:06 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi guys

stan's profile picture
Have ordered neutral drain assembly, along with the Whirlpool gear oil.
Decided to start there.. as its needed that repair for a while. I also ordered a six pad clutch..as long as the old one has to come off anyway..
Im curious as to why the neutral drain plate has to be replaced?
Since the new kit comes with a new plate, I'll replace it, and I can see why a new spin gear is included in the kit..because it's plastic, but what could go wrong with the metal plate?
I'm still suspicious of the timer, but thought I'd do the more complex repair first.


Post# 1025651 , Reply# 26   2/25/2019 at 22:23 by Stan (Napa CA)        
So my parts are in!

stan's profile picture
But while I was waiting, I decided to do some preliminary work on the machine.
I wanted to removed inner tub in order to scrub it up and clean the outter tub, as well as the fill flume, under the tub ring, under the agitator fins ect
Two things I noticed in the included pics, was rust in the center of the outter tub, and a small pile of black dust under the center of machine. The black dust felt.. rubbery.
Could the tub seal be disintegrating? I observed the tub seal from the top, but didn't see or feel anything unusual.
Is the rust normal for its age, or has water gotten somewhere is shouldn't have.
Have never found water on the floor in the years I've had it.
Thoughts


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Post# 1025708 , Reply# 27   2/26/2019 at 11:14 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Robert dust under washer

combo52's profile picture
Itís just wear from the drive coupling inspect the drive coupling when you take it apart you might want to replace it.

Rust on basket is about normal for a machine at that age.


Post# 1025730 , Reply# 28   2/26/2019 at 14:21 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Thanks John

stan's profile picture
I did order a coupler along with other parts..figured on replacing while I'm there. Glad to know it's not a tub seal.and rust is normal

Post# 1025731 , Reply# 29   2/26/2019 at 14:30 by Stan (Napa CA)        
After

stan's profile picture
I crack open the tranny and replace drain kit, reseal and close, is it advisable to leave trany upright for 24 hours before tipping/reinstalling and using.
Dont want a oil leak, and sealent Pak says wait to dry 24 hours.


Post# 1026277 , Reply# 30   3/5/2019 at 02:39 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi guys, I installed new neutral drain kit

stan's profile picture
When opening the transmission, I looked carefully at what was there, but didn't find anything wrong?
Spin gear looked good, no broken teeth, and neutral drain pak looked to be good..I went ahead and drained the oil as it looked pretty dark, (Inclosed pic) cleaned everything out with kerosine..and installed new parts, including new spin gear and along with fresh Whirlpool gear oil. My old clutch was still in good shape, but since I ordered a new 6 pad clutch, I put it on as well. Also a new motor coupler.
Intalled back into machine and ran a empty load.
Problem still partially exists!
It goes through fill and agitation, pause and will start to neutral drain, get about half way drained, then it stops.. like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds, then starts to spin And adds water.. Even though the water from wash isn't out yet..Finishes spin, then goes on to fill for rinse, agitates normal time, pause's then starts to neutral drain and countinues until it times out but dose not spin at all, unless I push in knob and pull out again.

Have I installed the neutral drain incorrectly?
If I did.. why would I get neural drain for part of the drain?
This has to be a faulty timer?


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Post# 1026279 , Reply# 31   3/5/2019 at 03:47 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

It goes through [wash] fill and agitation, pause and will start to neutral drain, get about half way drained, then it stops.. like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds, then starts to spin And adds water.. Even though the water from wash isn't out yet..Finishes spin, then goes on to fill for rinse, agitates normal time, pause's then starts to neutral drain and countinues until it times out but dose not spin at all, unless I push in knob and pull out again.
Is this behavior consistent on every run? On both Regular and PPress? Or only in Regular if you don't typically use PPress?

... like someone pulled the plug for about 3 to 5 seconds
That's exactly what the pause between agitate and drain, and between drain and spin, is supposed to exhibit.

How long does it drain after the wash agitation until the motor pauses again and spin begins before drain is complete?

Sequence should be:
- Wash agitation (for however long the timer is set) (or rinse agitation)
- Pause a few seconds
- Neutral drain for 2 minutes
- Pause a few seconds
- Spin

If it's running neutral drain for two mins but the water isn't completely out, then something may be obstructing the pump-out flow rate.† The water level switch is out of the circuit for drain and spin so it will spin with water in the tub if drain is incomplete after two mins.

If it's not draining for a full two mins before the second pause, then the timer probably is the problem.† Ditto if it's not pausing a second time after the rinse neutral drain.

You said way up above that you've known for a few years that your neutral drain is worn.† Maybe it's both a flaky timer and neutral drain mechanism.

You can test neutral drain function by
1) setting the timer to the dry agitate position (the index mark in the Off referenced in Reply #19) and letting it agitate, 30 seconds should be enough (it'll probably run for two mins then turn off if you don't otherwise stop it)
2) stop the machine and set the timer to spin (doesn't matter which spin, final spin on Regular cycle is fine) and start it
3) should engage neutral drain
4) push the timer to stop, pull to start, should engage spin

You can do those four steps repeatedly to check that neutral drain works consistently.† If it does via that procedure but doesn't when the timer advances through a cycle by itself (the pauses don't function properly) then the timer is bad.


Post# 1026305 , Reply# 32   3/5/2019 at 10:27 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture
The machine should drain in one to two minutes max, if the pump is doing this you have a bad timer.

When you look at the old neutral drain parts you will not see anything wrong with the parts, it is also VERY rare to see teeth worn or striped off the spin gear, if that was the case the transmission would have made a terribly loud noise.

John


Post# 1026307 , Reply# 33   3/5/2019 at 11:35 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Thank you John and Glen

stan's profile picture
Performed Glen's suggested test with the dry agitate and it did in fact neutral drain.
Yesterday when it went into neutral drain there was no idication that anything was wrong with the pump. But it certainly did not neutral l drain for 2 min. (Glen's question) I only had a small test load. And 2 min would have emptied it.
I had another issue with the parts that came for motor coupler, but will explain that later..
John was right about the black dust on the floor! It's was the insulator around the coupler that was disinagrating.
And it appears he also called a bad timer early on.
Now where to get a reliable timer?
Not seeing anything wrong with neutral drain parts is right? In or out, they looked to be exactly like new?
I saved the old clutch, and spin gear, along with neutral drain parts because they do not appear to be faulty?


Post# 1026327 , Reply# 34   3/5/2019 at 15:42 by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
hello stan

pierreandreply4's profile picture
hello stan if you can afford shiping ever tough of buying a spare washer as a backup here is a link for you just in case lots of old fashion direct drive machines

and also here a link that sell parts for washing machine they are expert with older machines located in Beloeil Canada this mean you would need to have the part ship they might have the type of timer you need for your machine

www.couture-electro.com/...

they might also have the part you need for your timer


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Pierreandreply4's LINK


Post# 1026423 , Reply# 35   3/6/2019 at 16:59 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi guys

stan's profile picture
Ordered a new timer from Amazon.
I'm fairly confident that the new neutral drain oak is working. Today I've run two loads using the PP cycle, and it performers as it should.p, but dose not in Ultra Clean Cycle. PP is is a cycle that I never use, and can't tell the difference beteen the the two, other than the PP only goes as high as 10 min.
Had I know this last, night I may not have ordered a $150 timer and just used the PP cycle from now on, but it's on it's way.
Is it possible that using the one cycle all these years wares out that part of the timer only?
I have other questions as to how the neural drain works mechanically. I wish when I had the trany open I'd have turned by hand one direction and the other to see how it operated. The engineering is a mystery to me.



Post# 1026425 , Reply# 36   3/6/2019 at 17:11 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Thanks Pierre

stan's profile picture
For the links

Post# 1026426 , Reply# 37   3/6/2019 at 17:12 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

Perm Press may have a cool down (partial drain, refill, agitate) before the first spin.

Or it may have sprays in the first spin (as a sort-of cool down) whereas Regular/Ultra Clean doesn't (that's a difference between Regular and Casual/PP on my 2003 Whirlpool).


Post# 1026453 , Reply# 38   3/6/2019 at 21:28 by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        

pierreandreply4's profile picture
your welcome stan sorry if the link I posted is from a montreal seller kijii that is

Post# 1027103 , Reply# 39   3/15/2019 at 02:34 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi guys

stan's profile picture
The new timer came in last weekend and I've installed it. The machine now works like new.
I had two problems
1 Faulty timer.
2 Worn neutral drain.
The neutral drain had been functioning intermitantly for quite some time, when the timer started to fail, one problem confused the other (for me)
I believe the reason for the machine stoping when it was not suppose to for 1 to 10 seconds the resuming spin was the faulty timer.
Since I started the repair with the neutral drain (parts that came first) I'll share my observations with that part of the repair first.
The new parts came with a new spin gear, 2 new plates, the latch, trip lever, and spin pawl, two screws.
I couldn't see why I needed new plate (rack retainer) what would be wrong with it? And as it turned out none of the screws including my old one fit the hole on either of the new plates sent. My old plate appeared to have a threaded hole that the screw threaded through. So I reused my old plate and screw for that. (I believe the screw is referred to as a shoulder pawl stud) and a Allen wrench is use for it.
Installed new trip lever, spin pawl, latch. Since I can't see ware on my old parts, I'm wondering if just the oil getting thick with age interferes with them doing there job?
If thats true, then I can't see the point of changing the parts, and not changing the oil, as illustrated in one of the above videos?
Unless the plastic spin gear hub is not supposed to tun like mine old one dose??
I also ordered a new motor coupler from Amazon that came in at the same time.. however the $7.99 part comes with only a new insulator a one coupler. You have to order the $12.00 one to get the one that has 2 couplers, metal reinforced one that goes on the electric motor side. As these things go.. Of course mine broke on the motor side...after transmission and motor reinstall during my testing! (Inclosed pic)
The new six pad clutch I put on is fine, but I don't think it was really necessary to have a commercial clutch for my machine
(so I have a spare) The extra $ would have been better spent on a heavy duty coupler with all three pieces.
I may post a new thread titled "New Neutral Drain" and share my observations possibly to help someone else that may take on this repair,
I included pics of my old parts cleaned up, and the worn insulator that was cause of the black dust under the machine.


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Post# 1027104 , Reply# 40   3/15/2019 at 02:52 by DADoES (TX,†U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture

All the FSP coupler packages I've seen include two coupler halves (both with the metal inserts).† You may have bought an after-market item.

Be sure to press the couplers onto both the motor and transmission so the end of the shafts are flush with the inner surface of the coupler.† Use a hex socket of appropriate size to fit between the fingers and mate to the metal insert so you're pounding on the metal insert, not on the plastic around the insert (which can cause the insert to separate from the coupler).

A photo comparing your old/existing rack retainer plate to the two new plates would been interesting to see.


Post# 1027105 , Reply# 41   3/15/2019 at 03:15 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi Glen

stan's profile picture
Metal socket worked well. Can't remember was size fit perfect.
Can't show you the old plate, cuz I ain't taken it out now LOL but the old one looked like the new, but mine looked threaded none the the studs fit through the hole except the stud provided that was too small.
Machine was smooth and quite before all this but is even better now.


Post# 1027106 , Reply# 42   3/15/2019 at 03:18 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Do you know

stan's profile picture
If the spin gear hub is suppose to turn, or is it supposed to be afixed?




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