Thread Number: 7969
The Evolution of the Spin
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Post# 153197   9/8/2006 at 08:46 (6,411 days old) by robm (Buxted)        

robm's profile picture
I have always wondered how spin technology evolved. My particular interest is in the frontloaders in the UK, although, it would be good to know the situation with toploaders too.

The sort of things I would like to know are -

What spin did the early machines have (the first Bendix for example or early Keymatic)? I believe the early Indesits spun at 420rpm.

How did the spin speed evolve in makes like Hoover and Hotpoint. Traditionally, Brit bought Hoover frontloaders were always fast, was the 1100 unusal at the time? When did it come about?

Were there any problems with suspension or motors spinning too fast?

Finally what are the fastest machines now and are they any good?

Any of your thoughts would be great as the spin for me is the most fascinating part of a machine's cycle. Any other comments aside from the above would be great too.

Rob





Post# 153218 , Reply# 1   9/8/2006 at 11:57 (6,411 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Whizzers!!!

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Good question Rob

The earliest spinner recorded was the savage spinner about 1930`s...this did make its debut along with some twinnies from the US in UK until late 50`s...

The British made dryers only really took off 1957+ with the Hoover and Creda brands, saying that the 1961 Which Consumer Mag boasted about 23 models...

Hoover Twinny 1957 = 1800rpm
Creda Debonair 1959 = 2,800rpm
Hoover SpinARinse 1959 = 1800rpm
Servis Supertwin 1959 MK1 =2,800rpm
Hotpoint Supermatic 1960 1400 = 3,100rpm

The first UK automatics had fairly good spins for the time but nowhere near the dryness of the spinner etc..

Servis MK72 1972 = 740rpm
Hoover Matchbox series 1970`s = 740rpm
Hoover Keymatic 1961 = 740rpm

The exception in 1970 was Hotpoint with its 1100 spin Front loader as well as the Top Loader which always did 1050rpm.
Then a year later they dropped back to 750rpm until 1980`s.

1976 was the turn with Hoover Electronic 800 spin, and then
1978 with the first Hoover A3060 Electronic 1100.

Since then UK machines and others have continued to increase spin speeds along with all sorts of gimmicks such as profile spins, intermediate spins...everything to produce less water & less creasing as well...

Of course as well as faster speeds it didnt always mean better machines, Hoover for instance just upgraded the Electronic 800 to 100rpm without beefing up the bearings, result: machines seizing by the dozen, they had to hire a fleet of transit vans just to complete the repairs of replacement drums etc, Same thing happened to Servis when they used lower grade steel in the spin care drums...early models but all sorted later...

1600 spin seems the norm for UK machines, 1800 models sell well but you would only be able to tell the difference by the length of time a dryer might take etc,,you would be hard pushed to feel the difference 1600/1800..

AND, now of course we have the Slovakian company Gorenge, who have just brought out the first 2000rpm spin..

Who knows where it will end, Mike




Post# 153238 , Reply# 2   9/8/2006 at 14:49 (6,411 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I'd venture to guess the race toward ever-increasing spin speeds will end when the fabric finally just goes liquid and disappears through the perforations in the tub, LOL.

Post# 153264 , Reply# 3   9/8/2006 at 18:33 (6,411 days old) by alr2903 (TN)        
warp speeeeeeeeeed

wonder how many rpm's, no iron fabric can truly take, before wrinkles are deep set, even when using the dryer? To me perma press washer cycles were always intended for no wrinkles, in no iron fabrics, when you dry on a clothes line? alr2903

Post# 153267 , Reply# 4   9/8/2006 at 19:08 (6,411 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
What an interesting question!

bajaespuma's profile picture
I know that French culinarians had the mechanical salad spinner that we are so familiar with today relatively late in the 19th century. I operated much like the large spinning tops some of us enjoyed as children. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if some farmer in France(or elsewhere) figured out how to apply that technology to linens.

Post# 153300 , Reply# 5   9/9/2006 at 01:28 (6,411 days old) by aquarius1984 (Planet earth)        
to be really honest

aquarius1984's profile picture
my mums first automatic was a 600spin Frigidaire Kelvinator i cant remember and this was the norm back in 1980, to imagine a Servis quartz back then at 1000 was like the novelty of having 1500 1600rpm these days. even though there are higher spin speeds i believe 1400 is enough. Im in the mindset my parents have in that 1000 to 1200 is enough and higher spin speeds shake the washer to pieces. But i do like the option of having 1400 of which my old zamussi was but i mainly span at 900 on nice days to cut down on ironing my white work shirts. 1400 is great for the winter as i have mega size bath sheets and for jeans to save tumble drying times. The 800 spin of the hotpoint in my house does IMO spins better than my mums lg 1200 and our old hotpoint 1000 but then it wont dilly dally shooting straight up to 800 which i guess the force of this squeezes out more water than a petty profile spin does. Nick

Post# 153307 , Reply# 6   9/9/2006 at 03:06 (6,411 days old) by robm (Buxted)        
Wow

robm's profile picture
Mike your knowledge is brilliant, you really know your stuff. I can't believe machines went so fast then. I would love to find a photo of that early Hotpoint frontloader, it must pre date the Liberator. I wonder why they cut the spin back.

I always thought machines spun at around only 400 until the 70s. I remember a very popular Hotpoint in the 70s that looked a bit like a liberator with a slightly different shaped door and a slow induction motor spin (any ideas)??

Nick I absolutely agree with you on speed. My Miele goes 1200 and is ample for me. I think 400, 800 and 1200 are the ideal speeds which cover most fabrics and types. My Hotpoint goes 1400 and I find that a bit fast.

To our american friends, thanks for your comments. The toploaders seem to have great quiet spin programmes with a gradual no nonsense increase in spin. I guess, you can't mess around with clothes in a vertical drum. What's the fastest speed on the toploaders in the states?

Rob


Post# 153314 , Reply# 7   9/9/2006 at 05:09 (6,411 days old) by frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture
I believe the fastest spin on a modern toploader is currently 1000 rpm from the Fisher & Paykel and Cabrio/Oasis models.

In vintage machines, the fastest speed I know of is 1140 rpm from the Frigidaire Unimatics and the very early GE's.


Post# 153317 , Reply# 8   9/9/2006 at 05:50 (6,411 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Hotpoint 1100

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Hi Rob

Heres the pic of the Hotpoint from 1970 spinning at 1100rpm, it had a programmer like the Hotpoint toploader with the "Timeline", 1 compartment soap dispenser, h&c fill.

The other hotpoint you mentioned might have been the one made by Zanussi, that was a 400 spin.


Post# 153324 , Reply# 9   9/9/2006 at 06:55 (6,410 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        
Fast spins...

I have to say I'm actually an advocate for the 1600rpm spins - especially on towels and jeans it works so well as they come out of the machine so much drier and take 20 minutes or so less in the dryer than a 1200rpm spin. However; in the summer when I use the washing line a lot I do stick to lower spin speeds (I tend to use 1100 in the Miele, and 1000 on the AEG), and for clothes I hang up on the clothes airer I tend to stick at about 8 or 900rpm.

However I have to say that 1600rpm is probably about my limit; if I had a machine that spun faster I'd be turning down the spin speed selector all the time!

Jon


Post# 153352 , Reply# 10   9/9/2006 at 11:33 (6,410 days old) by bajaespuma (Connecticut)        
Wish I could remember high school physics

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I think the diameter of the tub is a factor in extraction as well as rpm.

Post# 153353 , Reply# 11   9/9/2006 at 11:35 (6,410 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

Yeah it is, the G force produced is dependent on both the speed of the drum and the diameter of the drum; however if speed is a constant but the diameter of the drum is increased than the G force produced is also increased. Same if the size of the drum is at constant but the speed of the drum is increased. So, a 1200rpm Bosch Nexxt would spin considerably better than the 1200rpm Bosch Axxis, for example. The G's pulled on the 1200rpm American frontloaders is equivalent to about 1400 or 1500rpm on a European frontloader, I believe.

Jon


Post# 153359 , Reply# 12   9/9/2006 at 12:50 (6,410 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
My F&P IWL12 actually tops out at 1010 RPM, if the diagnostic screen is correct.

I vaguely recall there's one of the newfangled toploaders that spins "officially" at 1050. One of the Harmony models, or maybe Oasis? Neptune TL??


Post# 153382 , Reply# 13   9/9/2006 at 17:39 (6,410 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        
I use 1800RPM

For most things now, except business shirts and delicates.

There is no appreciable creasing in sheets or normal clothes, and even after line drying everything its never a problem.

The trick seems to be to unload immediately and then shake the creases out as you hang.


Post# 153440 , Reply# 14   9/10/2006 at 03:27 (6,410 days old) by robm (Buxted)        
On the subject of Performance

robm's profile picture
I have to say using my Miele, I find my shirts are less creased spun at 900 than 600, which is odd. I think the biggest factor in creasing is probably overloading.

Mike - thanks for the pic. I wonder why Hotpoint dropped the speed back? I always noted they were much slower than Hoover. The Hotpoint 400rpm was actually very different from the other machines so I am not suprised to hear they were made by a different company.

Toploaders - I'm surprised that they too have dropped their speeds. One would have thought they would have very high speeds, especially as the American machines are so well made. Maybe it's because as Jon said the G force is greater.

Does anyone know how fast the early Bendix frontloaders spun?

Rob


Post# 153453 , Reply# 15   9/10/2006 at 05:30 (6,410 days old) by lavamat_jon (UK)        

I think the early Bendix washers spun at about 200-300rpm - maybe someone from the other side of the pond could answer this?

Jon


Post# 153465 , Reply# 16   9/10/2006 at 06:12 (6,409 days old) by ricky5050 (Durham Britain)        

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Hi Rob my Bendix is from 1966 ish and it tumbles at 54 rpm during wash, and spins at 650rom at spin, a solenoid shifter pushes the gearbox in one go so it jumps between the two speeds in a single go. Its quite effective and on long spins towels are as dry as probably a 850 rpm in some modern machines. See vid 6 in the link below, the sound and pictures seem to have become disjointed and the clank you hear is the shifter changing gears and this happens before the spin.

cheers Richard


CLICK HERE TO GO TO ricky5050's LINK


Post# 153649 , Reply# 17   9/11/2006 at 05:23 (6,409 days old) by robm (Buxted)        
Thanks to everyone for their comments

robm's profile picture
Thanks Richard for your videos. It's intesting to see the Bendix only turns one way and doesn't rest. Is this typical?



Post# 154896 , Reply# 18   9/16/2006 at 13:49 (6,403 days old) by tumbler ()        
Spin speeds and how they got there

A little history and technology might help explain the "spin evolution." The Bendix machines had a spin speed of approximately 310 rpm. These machines had a split-phase or capacitor-start motor which ran at a constant 1725 rpm, and was direct coupled to a 2-speed constant-mesh transmission which drove a pulley. This was belted to a much larger pulley on the tub. During wash/rinse, the pulley was driven through the "1st gear," or highest gear reduction. During spin, a solenoid pulled a clutch lever which connected the pulley to the higher gear ratio. (Commercial Dexter machines used a similar transmission but with 2 solenoids, giving it 3 speeds; wash/rinse, slow extract of about 200 rpm, and high extract of about 350 rpm-still desperately slow). Early Westinghouse fl machines also used a transmission, but belt-driven by the motor. Top loaders mostly had a spin speed of 450-650 rpm. During the early and middle periods of electric washers, the Easy twin-tub had the fastest spin speed, I believe about 1725 rpm, but the tubs were of very small diameter. Likewise, in later years the Hoover twin-tubs and its knock-offs (Sanyo, etc.) used a split-phase motor to do the washing and a series-wound "universal" motor (like the one in your mixer, power drill, vacuum cleaner, etc.) to operate the spin tub and drain pump. These motors are capable of almost unlimited no-load speeds, and rotated the tubs at speeds of at least 1800 rpm. By the 1960's, Westinghouse had come out with a f.l. machine driven entirely by belts from the constant-speed motor; by shifting variable pulley halves together to produce a larger diameter motor pulley, they were able to get a tub spin speed of about 650 rpm. Some European machines, however, were using series-wound motors to operate their front loaders, which was made much easier with the advent of microprocessor motor speed controls. These enable the series motor, which normally has widely varying speed characteristics, to mimic the constant-speed induction motor for washing/rinsing, while maintaining the ability to run at extremely high speeds for extracting (my old White Westinghouse, which had a spin speed of 680 rpm, ran its motor at about 16,000 rpm to achieve this). Nowadays, most fl's use a 3-phase induction motor operated through a variable-frequency inverter; much quieter, and the motor can be used as a brake. I.e. a 8-pole induction motor run on standard 60-Hz current will run at about 850 rpm (550 on 50-Hz across the pond). If the Hz is increased to several thousand Hz, the speed will correspondingly increase. This is how, for instance, my Duet HT spins at 1250 rpm; with its large-diameter tub, it extracts really well at that speed. Some machines, like the LG, use a direct-drive brushless dc motor; essentially a flywheel with magnets in it surrounding a circular arrangement of electromagnets which are energized in sequence by a microprocessor. This type of motor is also used in the new generation of top-loaders like the Oasis. Standard top-loaders are still limited by their transmissions to about 650 rpm; the Oasis and similar machines can run at 1000 or more, and these motors also allow customized agitation patterns, as the agitator plate is also run by this motor. In other words, mechanical complexity has greatly decreased and been replaced by electronic complexity. Given the benefits such as much better extraction, it seems to be a pretty good trade-off!

Post# 154958 , Reply# 19   9/16/2006 at 19:36 (6,403 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Maytag's Helical Drive transmissions in no way limited the spin speed because when turned in the reverse direction from agitate, they locked to transmit the speed from the pulley on the bottom of the tranny. By using a larger motor pulley, I increased the spin speed from 618 to 757 rpm.

Post# 154977 , Reply# 20   9/16/2006 at 20:23 (6,403 days old) by mickeyd (Hamburg NY)        
Tumbler, you're an encyclopedia

mickeyd's profile picture
I have an Easy Spin and it really spins fast, but 1725 rpm--my God, I had no idea!
Can this be?

Holy Feces!


Post# 154990 , Reply# 21   9/16/2006 at 21:46 (6,403 days old) by westytoploader ()        

Easy Spindriers aren't 1725 RPM...more like the mid-600s. Otherwise they would vibrate like crazy. Maytag twinnies spin at exactly 2000 RPM, Hoovers are somewhere near that range as well. The 50's Westinghouse Speed Changer Laundromats spin at 475; later Potato-Pulley versions spin at 525.

Post# 154991 , Reply# 22   9/16/2006 at 21:50 (6,403 days old) by westytoploader ()        

And...the spin motor for the Hoover twinnie, as mentioned here before, was a Constellation motor.

Post# 155010 , Reply# 23   9/16/2006 at 23:39 (6,403 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains)        
not just the size, but what you do with it

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Several years back there was an excellent article in the German publication "Stiftung Warentest" on this subject. The authors, drawing upon research conducted on hundreds of machines over many decades came to the conclusion that it was not enough to simply "go fast". One range of AEGs from the late 70's early 80's for instance "only" spun at 850rpm, yet achieved better water extraction then their Miele competitors spinning at - for those days the enormous speed of - 1000+ rpm.
The AEGs had a better thought out spin cycle which, although mechanical, resulted in better extraction.
I use a 2,800rpm "schleuder" on clothes which land in the dryer. Some of my shirts are over 15 years old, I only wear natural fibers so know a bit about creasing and ironing. As long as I don't overload and shake everything out properly (and immeadiately) after spinning, there has never been either damage or bad wrinkling/twisting.
Side note: American washers vary in their quality and the set-up of their spin cycles tremendously. After the end of the golden era, it wasn't until very recently that effective extraction became a selling point again. As for the "quality", well - my recent trip to the 'States included 3 washer repairs. The best built and most reliable was an A108 from the late 70's....



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