Thread Number: 79816  /  Tag: Ranges, Stoves, Ovens
Stoves without thermostats
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Post# 1037123   7/4/2019 at 12:17 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Has a stove without a thermostat ever existed? One where the temperature of the stove is controlled by varying the intensity of the heating elements?


I know in the USSR cooktops achieved varying temperatures by putting the elements in series/parallel or switching sets in and out instead of an infinite cycling switch- but has this ever been done with ovens?


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Post# 1037124 , Reply# 1   7/4/2019 at 12:29 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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>> Has a stove without a thermostat ever existed? One where the temperature of the stove
>> is controlled by varying the intensity of the heating elements?

There sure was, and they were quite popular!

You had your choice of 100W, 75W, 60W, etc for the elements, and they sold replacements in various wattages at most hardware stores.

:D


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Post# 1037127 , Reply# 2   7/4/2019 at 13:07 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Early gas ovens did not have thermostats; the cook turned down the flame. Magic Chef was among the first with the Big Red Wheel oven regulator.

Westinghouse ranges in the 1920s had a non cycling circuit breaker type of control. The desired temperature was set on one side of the scale of the control and the heaters were switched on. When the red pointer on the opposite side of the scale reached the arrow at the set point, the current snapped off. The door was opened, the food put in and the door closed. The breaker was reset and the current came back on. The cook had to pay close attention to the oven while baking, but it did provide controlled heat. The insulation helped to hold the temperature steady so a glance at the red arrow told the cook when to reset the breaker. I saw this range at the John and Mabel Ringling home in Sarasota. It was next to two large gas ranges that were probably used for banquets in the winter when the circus was home. The ovens on those had three linear burners with valves at floor level that could be adjusted to regulate the oven heat. The Westinghouse was probably a God-send in the summer heat, even with the breeze off the Gulf.


Post# 1037129 , Reply# 3   7/4/2019 at 13:21 by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

Didn't some of the early legged GE/Hotpoint ranges have a 3 heat setting switch for the oven, along with a temperature gauge?

I'd like to visit the Ringling mansion. I have been to the museum and grounds but we did not get to go in the home.


Post# 1037135 , Reply# 4   7/4/2019 at 13:53 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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We`ve had them too. There were usually two separate rotary switches (0-1-2-3) one for top and one for bottom heat.
One of my older cookbooks from 1953 mentioned them as oldfashioned, but a 1963 baking book still gave directions on how to use them.
Usually both top and bottom was preheated for 10 min on "3", then you turned down the top heat to "1" or "2" but left bottom heat on a full "3".

They were called "Schalterbacköfen" (switch stoves) in Germany. Interestingly Google only comes up with Backofen Schalter which means oven switches.
It`s amazing you get 10,000 hits of switches but nada on those long forgotten electric stoves, but we`ve had a similar situation on syndets and hybrids as well some time ago...


Post# 1037136 , Reply# 5   7/4/2019 at 13:53 by chetlaham (United States)        
Easy Bake

chetlaham's profile picture
Those were nice, and still are!


Gas stoves- I've heard of those- neat and simple.


Hotpoint- I'm really curious of those existed!




Post# 1037138 , Reply# 6   7/4/2019 at 13:57 by chetlaham (United States)        
Schalterbacköfen

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Tell me more about these stoves! :)


I've been thinking of designing such a stove- one where a selector switch governs the temp.


Post# 1037140 , Reply# 7   7/4/2019 at 14:04 by fan-of-fans (Florida)        

This model has the three heat switches for the upper and lower elements, but I guess it is a thermostat on the side of the oven. Also those burners are odd. Anyone know what kind those are?

https://www.ebay.com/i/201536887190QUEST...

This unit is similar but it has Bake, Broil and Preheat settings with one knob instead, and the same thermostat on the side. Strange the burners on this one too are Chromalox? Thought the Calrod elements were Hotpoint's trademark, so fact it doesn't have them is odd to me.

https://www.ebay.com/i/233037728913QUEST...


Post# 1037143 , Reply# 8   7/4/2019 at 14:19 by chetlaham (United States)        
Look what I found

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Anyone know what stove this applies to? It looks like everything is switch controlled.

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Post# 1037144 , Reply# 9   7/4/2019 at 14:29 by thomasortega (We have a famous sign, earthquakes, bushfires and weed)        

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Post# 1037145 , Reply# 10   7/4/2019 at 14:31 by thomasortega (We have a famous sign, earthquakes, bushfires and weed)        

In Brazil, until today many stoves (actually most of the models on the market right now) don't have thermostats.

I mean, gas stoves, not electric

The flame is modulated and, believe it or not, they can be very accurate.


Post# 1037146 , Reply# 11   7/4/2019 at 14:45 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Chetlaham, wish I could tell you more but unfortunately have never had a chance to use one of those in person.

There is a museum in Hamburg I visited last year which is run by very nice people who seem to live for vintage appliances just like us on AW.
I could imagine they might be helpful on specific questions if you get in touch with them.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK




This post was last edited 07/04/2019 at 15:11
Post# 1037147 , Reply# 12   7/4/2019 at 14:59 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Thanks!


If it works for gas, I guess it could work for electric.


Post# 1037148 , Reply# 13   7/4/2019 at 15:05 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Another fixed temp, but for the burner only. I really want to try this for a stove:


bookingritzcarlton.info/wp-conten...



Post# 1037153 , Reply# 14   7/4/2019 at 16:05 by henene4 (Germany)        
Electrum Hamburg

Gonna have to make a sunday expedition there since I can get to Hamburg for free on my student ticket.



Fun fact: Many induction cooktops do not have any thermal control besides the usual safety guards and just cycle and\or vary power.
On both the IKEA branded probably Whirlpool made and the BSH induction cooktop we had on the lower 2/3 of the power scale they would cycle their lowest power modulation (you can audibly hear the system cycling on and off) while above that the continous power would increase.

On ovens I know that some ovens broilers were not temperature guided, but that was more lower end models.

Also, to this day, many gas ovens over here do not have temperatures per se but settings from 1 through 7 or 8.
And obviously ovens without electric igniter or pilot light could not cycle.

And on the modern side of things I heared rumors that the eco bake settings on new ovens often have a mix of time and temperature based heating.


Post# 1037159 , Reply# 15   7/4/2019 at 18:27 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Reply # 8

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Is a GE and it has a thermostat.

 

It would be easy to take any electric range and use two infinite switches, one for the broiler element and one for the bake element and control the heat manually, but why brother. 

 

I can't believe that any serious oven in Brazil today does not have a thermostat, it would simply be too dangerous and take way too much attention to cook in.

 

I guess the only good thing about not having a thermostat is every oven would be self-cleaning, LOL

 

John L.


Post# 1037161 , Reply# 16   7/4/2019 at 18:46 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Big thanks! Is the thermostat adjustable, fixed or a high limit?


Self cleaning- perhaps- but the idea is that on the highest setting the heating elements would only output enough heat such that it would equal the heat loss at say 450*F. Same for the lower settings.


Down side would be preheating time- which honestly I don't know how to calculate- but would imagine take some time.


The prospect of an oven without a stat if very elegant and beautiful IMO. I want to build one if I had the ability to do so- could tinker around with a range and a variac come time.


Post# 1037162 , Reply# 17   7/4/2019 at 19:45 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Chetlaham, Your lack of knowledge about ranges and wiring diagrams is painful. We have explained to you about oven thermostats and gas ovens without thermostats, but you either don't read or don't comprehend and have led this thread on a goose chase. I think you might have been confused by the oven switches for the top and bottom elements that allow a cook to vary the intensity of the heat, but not the temperature, so that if the oven was full of pans of food the pans right under the top element would not be burned because it could be either turned off completely or operated at a minimum input.

You say that you would like to try the control in #13. It is not an oven control. There is nothing special about it. Most GE and Hotpoint ranges had the 5 heat switches for the surface units and, while they did not look the same, early Westinghouse & Frigidaire ranges had them, too, but you jumped the track from talking about ovens without thermostats to surface unit switches that allow a certain fixed wattage input without the need for thermostats.

Henne, those numbers from 1 through 7 are known as gas marks and they correspond to oven temperatures. You will see them used in British cookbooks.


Post# 1037164 , Reply# 18   7/4/2019 at 20:03 by chetlaham (United States)        

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"Chetlaham, Your lack of knowledge about ranges and wiring diagrams is painful."

Ok, so which part is that which triggered you?


"We have explained to you about oven thermostats and gas ovens without thermostats, but you either don't read or don't comprehend and have led this thread on a goose chase. I think you might have been confused by the oven switches for the top and bottom elements that allow a cook to vary the intensity of the heat, but not the temperature, so that if the oven was full of pans of food the pans right under the top element would not be burned because it could be either turned off completely or operated at a minimum input."

And what have I said the leads you to think I do not comprehend? TC 80 thermo- how do I know TC does not mean thermal cutout as in a high limit? I've never seen one of these ranges in person nor do I know anything about them beyond what has been stated thus far hence why I am asking about them.





Post# 1037166 , Reply# 19   7/4/2019 at 20:10 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
"You say that you would like to try the control in #13. It is not an oven control."


Of course!






Its offensive for you to think that I don't know its for surface unit.


"There is nothing special about it. Most GE and Hotpoint ranges had the 5 heat switches for the surface units and, while they did not look the same, early Westinghouse & Frigidaire ranges had them, too, but you jumped the track from talking about ovens without thermostats to surface unit switches that allow a certain fixed wattage input without the need for thermostats."



Its not a jump track- I want to apply the same concept to an oven- which is what I have been imagining all along. Have 3 or 4 heating elements inside the oven and using various series/parallel/on/off combinations to achieve multiple temperature options. If it works for a surface burner, why not an oven.


Post# 1037169 , Reply# 20   7/4/2019 at 22:26 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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>> If it works for a surface burner, why not an oven.

You absolutely could make what you're describing for an oven, and you absolutely could cook food in that oven.
But using it would be a miserable process.


Surface burners have controls which vary their heat output, but only as a percentage of their maximum output, not as a temperature setting. They can do this because the thermostat in the system is YOU, the cook!

Surface burner controls are like the accelerator pedal on your car. Let off the pedal and you get your idling engine's minimum output. Floor it and you get your engine's maximum output. But no position of pressing the pedal strictly correlates with vehicle speed - it is up to the driver to vary the pedal input to accelerate to, and maintain, their target speed. Want to go 40 mph on flat ground? It might take a medium amount of pedal. Want to go 40mph up a steep mountain incline? It might take most of the pedal's throw and significant laboring of the engine to do so. Want to go 40mph DOWN a steep incline? You may need to let off the pedal entirely.

The human driver adjusts the power input to what is necessary, just as you do for a pan cooking pancakes, or a huge pot boiling water. On a vehicle, the cruise control is a good equivalent for the thermostat - set the cruise control to 40mph, and it throttles the engine as necessary to maintain your speed regardless of the conditions.



For an oven, you could do the equivalent manual process, having multiple taps of fixed power level inputs. But to obtain your target temperature will take a lot of waiting, monitoring, and adjusting. It becomes very easy to overshoot and burn your pie, or undershoot and change the way your meal cooks. Recipe guidance is based on a measurable time+temperature quantity - take away the stability of the temperature, and the cook time also varies, meaning you have more guesswork and checking to see if things are actually done. And you toss repeatability out the window - a pizza baked tomorrow will take a different amount of time than your pizza did today, just because of the temperature swings, heat soak, etc. Recipe books would be a disaster, as there would be no consistency between oven brands or models, let alone adjustments for the local climate or other factors that influence the temperature inside the oven. And the system becomes extremely sensitive to interference, such as heat loss when opening the oven door.


Doesn't sound very fun, does it?


Post# 1037171 , Reply# 21   7/4/2019 at 22:53 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
I fully agree with everything you said. Preheating would take a long time too, which would be a downfall.


Though for me its fun enough to try.


Post# 1037172 , Reply# 22   7/4/2019 at 23:15 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

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Theoretically, you could preheat in an identical amount of time. With or without a thermostat, the preheating would just be turning everything on full power and waiting until the desired temperature is reached, then turning it down to a reasonable power level to maintain that temp.

But you would have to be paying attention, as a failure to change the setting would be equivalent to starting a self-clean operation!



Post# 1037204 , Reply# 23   7/5/2019 at 03:04 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Not sure if such a stove would meet today`s safety standards, maybe if a thermal fuse was part of the system and I wonder what the benefits might be as thermostats aren`t that expensive anymore.
On the other hand I don`t think a Schalterbackofen ever reached temperatures even close to self cleaning even if someone forgot to turn it down.
Suppose overall maximum Wattage was way too low. The suggested 10 min preheating time rather seems like a bit of a prewarming. Guess you just had too put the food in early because of economical reasons, in other words to save on current.
Just think of early electric clothes irons, they were more in the 300 W range if at all vs. about 1000 W when thermostats became the norm.


Post# 1037205 , Reply# 24   7/5/2019 at 05:17 by kimball455 (Cape May, NJ)        

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When I got my house it had a Magic Chef stove. There was no thermostat on the over, you varied the flame just as like surface burner. I got quite good with temp control. Use that stove for years until the oven interior fell apart from rust and age.

Post# 1037207 , Reply# 25   7/5/2019 at 06:19 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Reply #15

combo52's profile picture

If the oven was designed to be able to only reach about 450 F it would be near useless, you would never be able to do even simple things like baking cookies where you need nearly 400F and you are oping and closing the door at least every 5 minutes as you rotate two sheets of cookies.

 

And when you do a large roast or turkey it might even be dangerous because the food might not cook quickly enough to stay safe.

 

OK I'll bite, what is the point of building an oven without automatic heat control, it seems a little building a car without brakes or steering, it might be beautifully simple but about useless.

 

John L.


Post# 1037221 , Reply# 26   7/5/2019 at 11:12 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
@Mrboilwash, that is the plan. The total oven wattage on high would be such that the oven could not overheat.

Combo52: You have a point, opening the door would cause a very big drop in temperature which would take a much longer time to recover from. Also large foods as Turkeys will probably pull the temp down substantially. Though as you know I am curious to see the severity in reality.


An oven without a thermostat would have the pros of being more reliable, no swinging temperatures once stabilized (Breville has built its business on this and yes I am aware they use an electronic thermostat) and possibly being cheaper. PRC (Peoples Republic of China) is already building warmers and compact ovens with fixed PTC resistors- a somewhat similar concept.



And to the person who liked reply #17- life is short to be filled with so much malcontent. Let people imagine, let others try something new even if it might fail in the end.


Post# 1037226 , Reply# 27   7/5/2019 at 12:56 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Did a little research on Ebay and there are still some of these stoves to be found. Looks like they made it well into the 1950`s just because they were cheaper to buy than a "Reglerbackofen" (one with an infinite thermostat).

An AEG model has a picture of a somewhat corroded rating plate where the top element is rated 600 and the bottom element is 500 Watts if I`m not mistaken.
Those German pre and postwar stoves were not turkey size of course, but a roasted duck or goose could be made in a reasonable time.
The most powerful one I could find has 1500 Watts for both elements together, which is almost as much as one of the "weaker" thermostat controlled ones of that time.

It may also be worth to mention that an electric stove that can only be controlled over 11 possible combinations of top and bottom heats instead of a thermostat is still a godsend over a wood or coal fired stove.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK on eBay


Post# 1037228 , Reply# 28   7/5/2019 at 13:31 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Mr. Boilwash, thank you! This is immensely inspirational. The more I think about it the more I smittened by it.


And yes, I am not surprised at all. The elements will have to be of lower power to prevent the oven from going over say 500-600*F.


Post# 1037231 , Reply# 29   7/5/2019 at 13:54 by kenwashesmonday (Haledon, NJ)        

fan-of-fans wrote:

"This model has the three heat switches for the upper and lower elements, but I guess it is a thermostat on the side of the oven" 

 

 

I'm thinking that may be a simple thermometer.  The cook would watch the thermometer and manipulates the switches accordingly.

 

I believe that Hotpoint came out with the Calrod heating element in the late 1920s.  Is it possible that these ranges are older than that?

 

 


Post# 1037240 , Reply# 30   7/5/2019 at 15:48 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
I want a wiring diagram to one of those ovens, either the Hotpoint or the German version.


And yes, I also suspect that may be a state... hoping that it is LOL.


Post# 1037243 , Reply# 31   7/5/2019 at 16:34 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Have a look at the 4th picture

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK on eBay


Post# 1037244 , Reply# 32   7/5/2019 at 16:57 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Oh man, I owe you big time! :)


Now that, is how you wire a stove. Very ingenious.


Do you know what the elements say left to right btw?


Post# 1037245 , Reply# 33   7/5/2019 at 17:11 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
The ones on the left are the top oven elements (Bratrohr oben), on the right are the bottom ones.

Post# 1037262 , Reply# 34   7/5/2019 at 19:51 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Very elegant way of doing it.


So I would imagine one set of top and bottom elements for medium, both sets for high and in series for low?



Post# 1037267 , Reply# 35   7/5/2019 at 22:04 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Building an oven without a thermostat

combo52's profile picture

Is just plain stupid, If it was designed so it could never go over 500-600F it would be nearly useless for baking or broiling.

 

It would not get hot enough to broil well.

 

It would take too long to preheat for baking.

 

It would end up using more energy because it would take so long to preheat and then eventually overheat.

 

It would bake very poorly because it could not recover when food was added and would result in too much temperature fluctuation, a decent souffle would be impossible.

 

It would be dangerous as many foods would eventually catch fire, and wasteful as much more food would be ruined.

 

 

Yes at one time both gas and electric ovens were built without thermostats because thermostats were expensive or not available at a reasonable cost, these ovens were more powerful and could easily reach temperatures over 700 F quickly.

Many of these early ovens were destroyed by forgetful users, or the fire department when they responded to a fire, LOL

 

John L.


Post# 1037270 , Reply# 36   7/5/2019 at 22:51 by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Underwriters Laboratories would never allow such a thing to be built and sold with their approval and without the UL sticker, they cannot meet requirements for sale because sellers have to be responsible for selling safe appliances just as manufacturers have to be responsible for not building and marketing dangerous appliances. Fire insurance companies would not insure a building with one in it. The concept is a fever dream of one who knows little of reality.

Knapp Monarch, Toastmaster and other brands made their cheapest models of table toasters without thermostats, but they were minimally powered units used with supervision. If you are interested in studying about these devices, the magazines are available.


Post# 1037271 , Reply# 37   7/5/2019 at 22:53 by chetlaham (United States)        
Food catching fire

chetlaham's profile picture
Not if you turn down the heat. Set to preheat- then turn it down a few notches. Even if left on preheat mode the elements would not be strong enough to push it past 550*F.


Preheating will take time though I can not deny this, and yes food will lower the temp taking time to recover.


But if played right I can see it working reasonably well.


Perhaps it might be time for me to look into PTC technology.


Post# 1037272 , Reply# 38   7/5/2019 at 22:57 by chetlaham (United States)        
UL listing

chetlaham's profile picture
What UL listing requires ovens to have a thermostat or a high limit?



"One who knows little of reality."


You have no way of knowing what I know and don't know, so saying this is just both dumb and silly.


Post# 1037313 , Reply# 39   7/6/2019 at 13:34 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Can you hook me up with the magazines or listings for Knapp Monarch and Toastmaster?




Post# 1037394 , Reply# 40   7/7/2019 at 06:24 by retro-man (nashua,nh)        

Just to throw this out here, I was thinking about this thread and came up with an idea. Would not it be just easier to take a more "modern" stove and remove the temp control and add in 2 burner controls, one for the bottom element and one for the top element. You could control the amount of heat being put out by both with the burner controls and adjust as needed. Just a thought.

Jon


Post# 1037415 , Reply# 41   7/7/2019 at 12:58 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
Its a good idea, thank you! I intend to try a variac to get the exact wattage that will stabilize a temperature, but before that I would need to improvise so your idea and combos idea would work out well. Wiring the bake and broil element in series would work to in giving me a lower wattage and going from there.


The helpful folks aside... considering that Tomturbomatic is now at 2 likes maybe its better that I don't share these ideas with the world. People come here to escape the judgment offered by the public, only to receive it by a certain group of inviduals on here.


Post# 1037417 , Reply# 42   7/7/2019 at 13:29 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

lowefficiency's profile picture
>> maybe its better that I don't share these ideas with the world

Don't take it that personally, it's more just that you're requesting information/assistance toward making a product "worse", which is a difficult ask for others to provide helpful advice toward. It might make sense to you, but to most other folks, it's just hard to understand why you would want to do this project at all.


Post# 1037419 , Reply# 43   7/7/2019 at 14:06 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
People are free to think its a bad idea warranted or not as much as they want, but can reserve typing out personal attacks. Yes it says more about them then it does about me, but for a place where its supposed to be safe to share these ideas it becomes rather disheartening. Yet ironically I would think (expect) thats why those people are here- to be safe from judgment.


Sure in some ways a thermostat free oven is a down grade in performance, but in other ways its a plus, good enough that PRC is doing it today. Then there is also the fact I want to see why this is a bad idea for myself. A lot is learned in the process like thermodynamics, series/parallel circuits, math, ect. "Violating" the "norm" should be seen as a good thing.




Post# 1037426 , Reply# 44   7/7/2019 at 16:30 by Stan (Napa CA)        
Hi Chetlaham

stan's profile picture
This won't answer your questions, but does show a example of a gas stove (currently in use) that has no thermostat.
(Original question)
The oven has one valve to open to control flame.
The # of jets for oven flame probably equal to two stove top burner jets together. I never open this valve all the way because I fear flame is too much to fast. During preheating, and If not babysitting, oven temp can easily reach 600 degrees in 15 min.
I'm so use to this stove.. I really don't think about it much because I just kinda know what flame height gives me 350 degrees. I also hang a oven themometer for accuracy.
Since the broiler is directly under the oven flame, time and temp is regulated by raising or lowing what ever one is broiling to that flame..instead of raising or lowering oven flame.
It's all very low tech, but would be considered unsafe by today's standards..(As it probably should be) but works just fine me!


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Post# 1037434 , Reply# 45   7/7/2019 at 18:14 by chetlaham (United States)        
Much Appreciated :)

chetlaham's profile picture
Thank you- I am very interested in such ovens. Keep this as long as you can, you are lucky to have it. Comes in handy during power outages too.




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