Thread Number: 80126  /  Tag: Refrigerators
1966 General Electric Spacemaker 19 Refrigerator MOD. TCF19DBC P.2
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Post# 1040726   8/4/2019 at 22:19 (1,697 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Formally: My General Electric Refrigerator/Bottom Mount Freezer.

 

Part of the haul of vintage appliances from Newport, R.I. . Thanks to Jeannine (spacepig) for posting the ad, John (combo52) for letting me know, and a huge thank you to Scott (searsbest) for helping move and load those heavy appliances.

 

This is a General Electric Model TCF19DBC Serial # LB631067.

 

My General Electric Refrigerator/Bottom Mount Freezer. P1

www.automaticwasher.org/c...

 

 





Post# 1040728 , Reply# 1   8/4/2019 at 22:28 (1,697 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

The deep cleaning has begun:

 

General Electric Clean interior


Post# 1040732 , Reply# 2   8/4/2019 at 23:38 (1,697 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Putting it back together.

 

GE Glass shelf

 

GE Shelves

 

GE Shelves extended


Post# 1040748 , Reply# 3   8/5/2019 at 04:40 (1,697 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

That looks very nice! It's hard to find antique appliances which are all complete - especially fridges because they have so many easily-removable parts that get lost through the years.


Post# 1040757 , Reply# 4   8/5/2019 at 07:42 (1,697 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Thanks David!

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And very true. The first thing I noticed that go missing are the drawers, ice trays, then shelves. And the worst I think are the trim pieces. This one has everything but the ice tray. 

 

 


Post# 1040765 , Reply# 5   8/5/2019 at 10:19 (1,697 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Just about finished with the refrigerator portion.

 

GE A

 

GE B


Post# 1040887 , Reply# 6   8/6/2019 at 13:46 (1,695 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

A neat control on one of the crisper drawers. Selecting "Meats" opens a flap in the rear of the compartment thus allowing more cold air in.

 

GE Crisper Cold Control

 

Note where they missed a spot while spraying the porcelain finish.


Post# 1040892 , Reply# 7   8/6/2019 at 14:06 (1,695 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Door panel done.

 

GE Butter Conditioner Door

 

GE Butter Conditioner

 

GE Door Panel Completed

 

Sadly, the blue metallic finish on two of the shelf bars has flaked off. I saw replacements on ebay but the prices were ridiculous.

 

 

 

 


Post# 1040899 , Reply# 8   8/6/2019 at 15:24 (1,695 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Freezer.

 

Notice how banged up the bottom edge of the evaporator panel is from over filling the basket and shoving it closed. G. E. could have designed something to prevent that.

 

GE Freezer

 

All clean.

 

GE Freezer without grill

 

GE Freezer with grill

 

Freezer door inner panel. What quality!

 

GE Freezer Door Inner Panel


Post# 1040903 , Reply# 9   8/6/2019 at 16:16 (1,695 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Finally the wire baskets. You can make a new LG out of one of them.

 

I imagine the undulating part of the ice tray shelf is for cans of frozen juice concentrate. I have the ice bin, but no ice trays.

 

GE Ice Bin

 

GE Freezer Baskets


Post# 1040908 , Reply# 10   8/6/2019 at 18:17 (1,695 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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The final push.

 

IMG_20190806_191423


Post# 1040916 , Reply# 11   8/6/2019 at 22:26 (1,695 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Back in service!

 

GE1

 

GE5

 

GE4

 

GE6

 

GE2

 


Post# 1040921 , Reply# 12   8/6/2019 at 23:41 (1,695 days old) by oliger (Indianapolis, Indiana)        

I would be lying if I said that I wasn't jealous!

Post# 1040942 , Reply# 13   8/7/2019 at 11:34 (1,694 days old) by cadman (Cedar Falls, IA)        

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Nice Job!!

Post# 1040956 , Reply# 14   8/7/2019 at 16:22 (1,694 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Thanks guys. One thing, sure is dark in the refrigerator section. That one bulb is not cutting it. I'm going to switch it out for a far brighter LED bulb. I am surprised GE put only one bulb in such a big refrigerator. My 1964 GE has four bulbs.


Post# 1040957 , Reply# 15   8/7/2019 at 16:38 (1,694 days old) by spacepig (Floridas Emerald Coast)        

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Just beautiful!!

As for light bulbs, my '65 only has one and it is difficult to see when there is a lot of food in there. My '55 has 2 bulbs (maybe 3), so I was surprised that they went to less.


Post# 1040962 , Reply# 16   8/7/2019 at 17:20 (1,694 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Thanks Jeannine. Those bottom 2 shelves are black holes.


Post# 1040963 , Reply# 17   8/7/2019 at 17:24 (1,694 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Beautiful Louie!!!


Post# 1040965 , Reply# 18   8/7/2019 at 17:25 (1,694 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Thanks Bob! I wonder if a freezer can have a Bob Load? wink


Post# 1040967 , Reply# 19   8/7/2019 at 17:27 (1,694 days old) by appnut (TX)        
if a freezer can have a Bob Load?

appnut's profile picture

Louie, would you believe, according to my bottom mount Kenmore Elite, yes!!!!!!.  


Post# 1041051 , Reply# 20   8/8/2019 at 13:50 (1,693 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Temperature in refrigerator section hovering around 34F. Freezer section at -4F. Amp draw only goes beyond 5 at compressor startup. Once it settles down, it never goes above 4.8. Today, most of the groceries will return to the kitchen refrigerator, as I had emptied it to give a thorough cleaning (God, the things you find in there). The Spacesaver will be regulated for beverage, overflow duty.


Post# 1041116 , Reply# 21   8/8/2019 at 20:01 (1,693 days old) by mtn1584 (USA)        
Maytag???

Where are the pix of your Maytag washer?
Mike


Post# 1041132 , Reply# 22   8/8/2019 at 22:03 (1,693 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
2010 General Electric Refrigerator

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Nothing special. Manufactured July, 2010. Currently the daily driver in the kitchen.

 

The 1966 GE is the back-up to this one.

 

Hopefully the daily driver will be replaced by the 1964 General Electric Spacesaver currently visiting Martin (Yogitunes).

 

GE Sept. 2010

 

GE 9-2010 1

 

GE 9-2010 2

 

GE 9-2010 3


Post# 1041260 , Reply# 23   8/10/2019 at 06:41 (1,692 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Now what?

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Well, woke up this morning to the same issue. Compressor cycling on and off every minute or so. Temperatures rising inside the refrigerator/freezer. However AMP draw remains normal between 4.9 and 5.2. Mad dash in moving the remaining groceries to the GE daily driver.  Apparently, unless I got yet another defective one, the 3n'1 was not at fault.

 

 




This post was last edited 08/10/2019 at 07:11
Post# 1041262 , Reply# 24   8/10/2019 at 07:01 (1,692 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Compressor Starting Problems

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Not so good morning Louie, I don't think that the 3 in 1 relays can handle the 4-5 amp draw of an old compressor for very long, I was concerned about the nearly 5 amp draw you were measuring. 

 

You may have to go back to a mechanical relay and conventual overload. You could also add a start capacitor and it would be interesting to try adding a run capacitor as well, this can bring down the running watts [ and temperature ] of an older compressor like this one.

 

John L.


Post# 1041263 , Reply# 25   8/10/2019 at 07:10 (1,692 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Thanks John.

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Thanks for the advice. The maximum amp draw for this refrigerator is 6.6. So the current amp draw is too low?

 

 


Post# 1041280 , Reply# 26   8/10/2019 at 10:18 (1,692 days old) by bigalsf (Salt Lake City)        
Stunning!

Hi, I just read this thread and pt 1.   You did an awesome job on this!  It looks stunning (even brand new!) Your attention to detail is remarkable!  Based on all this I'm highly considering putting in a vintage unit like this when I remodel my kitchen.   I'm sorry that it is giving you some trouble again, but I'm sure you'll get it fixed.   

 

Thank you for documenting the process;  I learned a lot about these units! :)   


Post# 1041288 , Reply# 27   8/10/2019 at 12:09 (1,691 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Hello Alan, and thank you. Glad you enjoyed the threads. They are indeed handsome beasts and along with the quality, is why I am so hooked on them. Wishing you the best of luck in finding your own. Please keep us posted!


Post# 1041298 , Reply# 28   8/10/2019 at 13:42 (1,691 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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John, I made a mistake, the maximum amp draw is 5.8, not 6.6.

 




This post was last edited 08/10/2019 at 14:11
Post# 1041444 , Reply# 29   8/11/2019 at 16:15 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Tomorrow I am buying a Supco 3 n'1 straight from a factory authorized dealer. No more Amazon. I am certain I got another knock-off even though I purchased it from another vendor.

 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTvzBHMIhT1FDt9yFNoGFWb0OaaXXb7BhQy29TgPlhpAjXLhpEb

 

RCO410

RCO410--RELAY CAPACITOR OVERLOAD

110 to 125VAC Solid-state Hardstart Relay, includes relay, overload, and start capacitor. Use refrigeration systems with or without run capacitors. Rated for 1/4 HP to 1/3 HP compressors. Maximum RLA 6.8 Amps.

 

Let's see if the third time is the charm.


Post# 1041446 , Reply# 30   8/11/2019 at 16:33 (1,690 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Reply#29

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Hi Louie, go ahead and try, but we have seen lots of THE REAL Supco relays fail as well, we only use the 3 in 1 relays as a last resort if we can't easily find the correct part or as a temporary fix.

 

I differently would not use one on one of my refs if I had a lot of food in it.

 

PS the amp draw listed on the nameplate of a refrigerator is of little or no value, it does not tell you what the running watts-amps should be, the service Manuel you got lists the running watts for different running conditions.  

 

John L.


Post# 1041447 , Reply# 31   8/11/2019 at 17:42 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Thanks John.

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You had mentioned a mechanical relay,  conventional overload and a start capacitor.

 

 




This post was last edited 08/11/2019 at 22:13
Post# 1041459 , Reply# 32   8/11/2019 at 21:14 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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As far as I can tell, this would be the schematic for my refrigerator:

 

1963 GE Schematic


Post# 1041461 , Reply# 33   8/11/2019 at 21:33 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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An expanded view.

 

1963 GE Type D Motor

 

1963 GE Type D Motor


Post# 1041464 , Reply# 34   8/11/2019 at 22:03 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Original Guardette:

GE Guardette

 

Correct replacement? WR8X30

New Guardette WR8X30 .jpg

 

 

 


Post# 1041465 , Reply# 35   8/11/2019 at 22:12 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Original Relay:

Relay

GE Relay 2

 

The refrigerator is rated at 1/3 HP. I found this starter relay that may work:

Start Run Relay

 

See link:

 

 



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Ultramatic's LINK

Post# 1041480 , Reply# 36   8/12/2019 at 06:17 (1,690 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Correct Relay And Overload

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Hi Louie, it looks like you are finding the correct parts and wiring diagrams. The last little square box thing you found is the same as the 3 in 1 without the start capacitor [ I would skip that for now ]

 

If I were there trying to fix this situation I might add a start capacitor and may try a run capacitor as well to bring down running watts and compressor heat as well.

 

You just need to move closer to Jeff and I.

 

John L.


Post# 1041481 , Reply# 37   8/12/2019 at 06:18 (1,690 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Correct Relay And Overload

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Hi Louie, it looks like you are finding the correct parts and wiring diagrams. The last little square box thing you found is the same as the 3 in 1 without the start capacitor [ I would skip that for now ]

 

If I were there trying to fix this situation I might add a start capacitor and may try a run capacitor as well to bring down running watts and compressor heat as well.

 

You just need to move closer to Jeff and I.

 

John L.


Post# 1041485 , Reply# 38   8/12/2019 at 07:06 (1,690 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Hi John! I'm a little confused. I thought the start relay I pictured was the same as a start capacitor. 

 

So I would need a start capacitor and a run capacitor.


Post# 1041492 , Reply# 39   8/12/2019 at 09:06 (1,690 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        
Start and Run capacitors...

Hi Louis; it can get confusing with all the relays and capacitors and those kind of things!  Here's a run-down on the differences.

 

Original type relay. This is a "current relay" which engages the start winding when the compressor is drawing a high level of current because it's not running yet. It only engages the start winding when necessary, disengaging it at the moment the compressor starts. It will work again immediately if the compressor is stopped and re-started. There is no time waiting required. This has to be matched to the compressor so it kicks in and out at the correct current level, based on the compressor motor requirement.

 

The Supco RCO and RO devices. This is the 3-in-1 or the smaller one you linked above without the capacitor. This is not really a relay at all. It's a timing device. I won't go into how it works, but will explain what it does.  This device provides power to the compressor's start winding for a short period of time, once, each time the compressor is powered on. The device does not know if the compressor started or not - it just sends a timed start signal.  The timing device also requires a reset time of up to  5 minutes. If the power is removed then re-applied before this time has elapsed, there will be no start winding activation and the compressor will not start.

 

Capacitors alter the relationship between the AC waveforms going to the run and start winding. This is called "phase shift."  It generates a rotating magnetic field to get the motor going.

 

Start capacitor has a relatively large capacitance value. It generates a strong phase shifted signal with the motor at stalled or very low speeds. However, it will generate an excess voltage and high current if it continues to operate while the motor is at full speed; resulting in damage. It is used with a start relay or timed start device such as the Supco. The 3-in-1 has a start capacitor in it.

 

Run capacitor (or permanent capacitor) provides the correct level of voltage and phase shift while the motor is under normal running conditions. It has a smaller capacitance value than the start capacitor; and can operate continuously. This capacitor will not provide much starting torque while the motor is at a standstill. While running the effect is an increase in efficiency (less amps needed to do the same work).

 

Often systems will have both start and run caps. The start cap has a switching system so it only works during starting. The run cap is permanently connected and stays in circuit at all times.

 

Hope this is useful info!

 

 


Post# 1041520 , Reply# 40   8/12/2019 at 16:20 (1,689 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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David! Thank you so much in explaining the differences. So how can I determine the correct start capacitor for my GE?


Post# 1041552 , Reply# 41   8/12/2019 at 18:41 (1,689 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Start capacitor

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Am I looking at something like this?

 

Modern refrigerator start capacitor


Post# 1041555 , Reply# 42   8/12/2019 at 18:48 (1,689 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Reply # 41

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Thats a run capacitor.


Post# 1041559 , Reply# 43   8/12/2019 at 19:00 (1,689 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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So the run capacitor would be in addition to the start capacitor.


Post# 1041584 , Reply# 44   8/13/2019 at 02:27 (1,689 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
I think we're in business...

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Original GE Relay #WR7X85 Type 3ARR12PK125A

(Pick-up current AMPS. 11.6 Drop-out current AMPS. 9.9)

 

Cross referenced with MARS 27006 and GEM CR316

 

 

 


  View Full Size


This post was last edited 08/13/2019 at 06:59
Post# 1041585 , Reply# 45   8/13/2019 at 02:47 (1,689 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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The Guardette WR7X83 Type 3ARG1C28  is cross referenced with MARS 35012

 

On it's way.

 

Mars 35012

 

Mars 35012



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Ultramatic's LINK

Post# 1041614 , Reply# 46   8/13/2019 at 16:05 (1,688 days old) by ken (NYS)        

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Looking forward to seeing how it works out. Hoping for the best. Are you planning on adding a run capacitor?

Post# 1041631 , Reply# 47   8/13/2019 at 18:22 (1,688 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Thanks Ken!

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This refrigerator never had a run capacitor, so I wouldn't know which one to use or how to install it.


Post# 1041652 , Reply# 48   8/13/2019 at 20:52 (1,688 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Run capacitors for older compressors.

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You just wire it in across the start winding as David explained, take an amp reading before and after to see if it helps, in most cases it helps even older compressors run cooler and uses less energy.

 

John L.


Post# 1041771 , Reply# 49   8/14/2019 at 19:26 (1,687 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Thanks John.

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Would a running capacitor help extend the life of the compressor? And what values must the running capacitor have?




This post was last edited 08/14/2019 at 19:58
Post# 1041912 , Reply# 50   8/16/2019 at 15:37 (1,685 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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The GEM CR316 relay has arrived, but the MARS 35012 overload protector is now "not available". Funny how they take your money and only tell you it's not available after you inquire on the status of the order. I found another source and ordered it. So let's wait some more.

 

https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-d57o0b/gtylcah/products/7973/images/1360/overload_protector__11687.1396896620.800.800.jpg?c=2

 

350 Series 3/4" motor protectors

HP @ 110/115V: 1/5, 1/4, 1/3

HP @ 208/240V: 1/2

 

 


Post# 1042254 , Reply# 51   8/19/2019 at 18:57 (1,682 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Post #32 is incorrect for my model, disregard.

 

The correct schematic for my model is post #33, FIG. 10.1


Post# 1042255 , Reply# 52   8/19/2019 at 19:00 (1,682 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Guardette saga continues...

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Had to cancel the last order for the motor overload protector because the model was incorrect. However I did find a direct replacement of ebay (MARS 35012) and ordered that. Let's wait some more.


Post# 1042605 , Reply# 53   8/23/2019 at 21:28 (1,678 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Well the new Guardette replacement arrived today. Notice the rating for HP. At 110/115 Volts It's good for up to 1/4 HP. This refrigerator is 1/3 HP. After extensive cross referencing, the 35012 was the direct equivalent to the original WRWR7X83 Type 3ARG1C28. I read somewhere that you can not determine the correct overload protector using the HP rating alone.

 

MARS 35012

 

MARS 35012


Post# 1042628 , Reply# 54   8/24/2019 at 09:34 (1,678 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Huh

So, I never was interested much in fridges and freezers...

But that freezer sure as heck looks verry advanced technology wise, almost like a convection oven, just cold, if you know what I mean...


Post# 1042637 , Reply# 55   8/24/2019 at 11:56 (1,677 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
If you are so compelled .....

here is the schematic updated for a start and run cap added to the circuit. I am assuming you said it was a 1/3 hp compressor, but these cap values would be good for 1/4 to 1/3 hp.

The run cap would be:

www.speedyapplianceparts....

The start cap would be:

www.mccombssupply.com/pac...


I would run these part numbers thru ebay and probably will find the best price for these 2 caps.


In simple terms, a Start Capacitor holds an extra charge to get a motor moving. Whereas a Run Capacitor keeps a motor running smooth with no up and down spikes. The run cap also lowers the power factor that is inherent to an AC motor and lowers the "stress" on the motor increasing its overall life. But if a motor did not have a run cap or a start cap in the first place, then the "need" for either almost becomes a moot point. The motor was therefore built well/heavy enough to start/run without either cap. But adding them won't hurt anything. If you get "added life" out of the compressor motor by adding a run and/or start cap would be speculative at best.

I just did this very same thing to a '55 Philco 2-door refrigerator with a 1/3 hp compressor and it has been running nicely for a while now. But I did it because on start-up of the compressor, it had a slight hesitation for the first split second. With the start cap added it has no hesitation whatsoever and actually sounds like it has less of a load or strain at start-up. I added the run cap to lower the power factor .... and with it added, my Kill-a-Watt meter showed that normal run current lowered from 2.1 amps average, to 1.7 amps .... so I left the run cap in the circuit to "maybe" add life to the original '55 compressor. Again can only be a speculative debate, but less current inherently sounds like a good thing for the same amount of work.

Cheers!

BTW, no warranty expressed or implied. lol

Bud - Atlanta


  View Full Size
Post# 1042648 , Reply# 56   8/24/2019 at 15:50 (1,677 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Bud...

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Thank you so much for the information and the schematic!


Post# 1043434 , Reply# 57   8/31/2019 at 21:29 (1,670 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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The original Guardette has both wires attached to the #1 tab. The replacement MARS has one wire at the #1 tab. The other wire at the #3 tab. If I am reading the schematic correctly, the #3 with would plug into the relay. The #1 wire would be connecting to the orange wire coming from the refrigerator cabinet.

 

Original GE Guardette (L), replacement MARS (R)


Post# 1043440 , Reply# 58   8/31/2019 at 22:42 (1,670 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
This mess.

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The original wiring coming off the power cord schematic. I am taking guesses here since what I have doesn't exactly match the schematics I am using.

 

Power cord schematic

 

Power wire GE


Post# 1043612 , Reply# 59   9/2/2019 at 19:04 (1,668 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Well it's running and beginning to cool. Amp. draw is a steady 4.9. We'll see in a few hours. Let's hope the third time is the charm.


Post# 1043624 , Reply# 60   9/2/2019 at 20:30 (1,668 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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90 minutes later, looking good. 31F in the refrigerator @ #7 on the cold control, 5F in the freezer @ #5 on the cold control.


Post# 1043634 , Reply# 61   9/2/2019 at 21:48 (1,668 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Nice and cold.

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Compressor cycling on and off normally. However the condenser fan has not cycled off yet. I was under the impression that if the compressor cycles off, the condenser fan does too.


Post# 1043646 , Reply# 62   9/2/2019 at 22:42 (1,668 days old) by sarahperdue (Alabama)        
Wow!

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It's beautiful! I'm looking forward to hearing that it is running smoothly and cycling on and off as it should.

How does energy usage compare to a modern refrigerator?

Sarah


Post# 1043671 , Reply# 63   9/3/2019 at 07:07 (1,668 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        

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Yay Running again, The condenser fan motor is supposed to be wired with the compressor so it shuts off and runs only with the compressor.

 

I am still a little concerned about the almost 5 amp draw, did you try adding a compressor run capacitor ?

 

Energy consumption ?  This ref when running properly according to the GE service Manuel will use about 154 KWs of power a month, that's 3 times what a modern FF 20 CF ref uses, the good news is that many vintage refs this size like Amana, WP-CS, Admiral, Philco use almost 200 KWs for a Similar size ref.

 

John L. 


Post# 1043692 , Reply# 64   9/3/2019 at 11:39 (1,667 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Thanks Sara. Except for the condenser fan issue, it continues to cool just fine. As for power consumption, it must be a lot higher than a modern refrigerator. However, that may be a mute point if you have to replace the modern one every 3 years with a new one. Anyone want to wager how many LG's will be running 20 years from now?


Post# 1043696 , Reply# 65   9/3/2019 at 12:35 (1,667 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Hi John! I basically reconnected everything how it was originally. I guess somewhere I miswired the condenser fan. I will be doing a schematic showing exactly what I did and hopefully correct this.  The running amp. draw is 4.9. I did not install a running capacitor at this time. Power draw is hovering around 329 watts while compressor is running. So far I haven't been able to find the normal watt usage for this particular model. So I don't know if what I am reading is within the normal range. The refrigerator is located in an area where the ambient temperature never goes beyond 75F.


Post# 1044145 , Reply# 66   9/7/2019 at 23:35 (1,663 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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I made a slight repositioning of the wire coming from the Guardette to the relay. It was originally plugged into the bottom right tab (1), now it is located on the tab directly above.

 

This is in preparation of installing a run capacitor.

 

Compressor relay

Compressor relay

 

 

 

 


Post# 1044155 , Reply# 67   9/8/2019 at 01:17 (1,663 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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I plugged in the run capacitor. Amp load was plummeting down to 3.9. Then it began to climb quickly to about 6.1. I was unplugging the refrigerator when a flash, then click.  I removed the run capacitor and reconnected everything as it was. Compressor will not turn on. So I either burned out the Guardette or the start relay. The fun never ends.

 

What I did:

Flash! Bzzzzzt!


Post# 1044170 , Reply# 68   9/8/2019 at 07:26 (1,663 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
Louis .....

By your pictures it appears you are connecting the run cap to the wrong side of the relay coil at point "A". Needs to be at point "B". The "M" side of the coil, not the "L".

Did the guardette pop? If it is the type that has the internal heater, you'll have to wait till it cools and resets, else it is the thermal fuse type and has to be replaced if it pops.



  View Full Size
Post# 1044175 , Reply# 69   9/8/2019 at 08:41 (1,663 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

It may very well be connected not-per-drawing; however I would not expect this to have caused a flash-bang sort of incident. I would look closely at the relay's internal wiring. It may or may not be feasible to connect it per the drawing with this exact relay. It seems that the right-side pin on the compressor is the R terminal, and the relay coil winding goes into the socket for this pin, without any provision to connect an external wire. There may be no alternative but to connect it as you had it, with the capacitor current going through the coil. The relay has a 9 amp pickup, so it shouldn't have been activated by the small current from the relay.

It would be a good idea to test the capacitor with a meter (having capacitance test mode) as well as testing for shorts in the capacitor.

If the capacitor shorts, the effect will be the same as the start-relay staying in start mode. That would cause high current and a tripping of the overload.

The capacitor and motor winding form a resonant circuit. The voltage on the capacitor can build up to a higher voltage than the motor's supply voltage. Depending on the design of the motor and capacitor, it could have very well exceeded the voltage rating of that super-cheap plastic capacitor.

If the cap is failed now, that would be something I would look into for the next one. They sell standard voltage ranges with 250 being followed by something in the high 300 to 400V range.

All of this depends on the motor's winding design and size of the capacitor. If someone else has done this and knows, hopefully they speak up. If not then the only way to know is to test and measure.

 

Here is a selection of caps which could possibly suit the bill: https://www.grainger.com/search?searchBar=true&searchQuery=run+capacitor+15uF 

Regardless, after everything cools off, the circuit breaker should reset. Unless something shorted to ground, or to the motor's C terminal, the capacitor failure could not have created a direct short which could damage the Guardette. It could have only created an overload condition by the start and run windings in effect at the same time, which would cause the Guardette to trip; and then require a delay before it works again.

Don't give up!  laughing


Post# 1044185 , Reply# 70   9/8/2019 at 09:36 (1,663 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
I'm thinking ....

David is on to something when he says the resonant voltage may have been greater than the cap rating.

The resonant voltage may have caused the relay coil to energize .... turning on the start windings during runtime .... causing the overload to pop.

It sounds as though it worked for a minute with the current measured at 3.9amps which is lower than the usual 5 amps without the run cap.

So yes, depending on the internal wiring of the relay, it may be difficult to add the required taps at points M and S of the relay to incorporate the run cap.

If you are able to add the required taps, I would try this cap instead.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Run-Cap-15uf-MF...

I agree, don't give up.


Post# 1044195 , Reply# 71   9/8/2019 at 12:39 (1,662 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

First of all, thank you Bud and David for all your help and advice. I deeply appreciate it.

 

After a few hours of the refrigerator being disconnected, I plugged it in again to see whether the Guardette had reset. Apparently it's toast. The refrigerator just clicks every 30 seconds or so. Everything else seems to be running. I have not tested it with a multi-meter yet, but I will shortly. As for the starter relay, it was plugged into the correct pins of the compressor.

 

IF, I can still use a run capacitor, which tabs on the capacitor would go to the starter relay?

 

1966 1

 

1966 2

 

1966 3

 

 


Post# 1044202 , Reply# 72   9/8/2019 at 15:07 (1,662 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Hmm...

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

The MARS 35012 tests OK. Resistance is 0.1 of resistance.

 

The original Guardette tested OK as well @ 0.1.

 

The GEM start relay is reading 0.3 ohms.

 

The original GE starter relay reads 1.2 ohms.

 

Compressor is good too with readings from 5.5 to 3.1 ohms

 

So why the compressor does not start?


Post# 1044209 , Reply# 73   9/8/2019 at 15:47 (1,662 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

If the compressor is clicking and not starting, as long as the compressor ohms out ok I’d replace the relay

Post# 1044216 , Reply# 74   9/8/2019 at 17:16 (1,662 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

That is definitely a possibility Eugene. I spoke with Bud and he had suggested the same thing. I am going to try with the original G.E. starter relay to see if the compressor kicks in. The GEM relay I was using may have a short internally. Keep your fingers crossed.


Post# 1044219 , Reply# 75   9/8/2019 at 17:46 (1,662 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Zilch.

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

No change. Apparently the old GE relay has an internal short as well.

 

Just ordered a replacement.

 

3ARR12


Post# 1044773 , Reply# 76   9/13/2019 at 14:18 (1,657 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Just installed the replacement. No change. Just clicks as if trying to start. So all the other relays must be good. Could it be the Guardette?


Post# 1044813 , Reply# 77   9/13/2019 at 19:54 (1,657 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Ran a series of tests with David. The compressor is fried. Thanks everyone for all the help. I guess it was just not meant to be.




This post was last edited 09/13/2019 at 20:19
Post# 1044816 , Reply# 78   9/13/2019 at 20:31 (1,657 days old) by spacepig (Floridas Emerald Coast)        

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Oh no, Louie. I'm so sorry to hear this. I was really hoping it would have worked out. Any chance you would get the compressor replaced?

Post# 1044822 , Reply# 79   9/13/2019 at 21:24 (1,657 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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It's not going to be easy. While there is a very similar compressor available on ebay, it's 1/4 HP. I need a 1/3 HP. I feel having the same compressor would make it far easier for some local tech to do the job. I won't lie, I'm real bummed out for now, but I am still fairly optimistic it will be repaired. Just don't know when. 


Post# 1044846 , Reply# 80   9/14/2019 at 03:04 (1,657 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

The current OHM numbers are:

 

Common to Run : 2.3

Common to Start: 1.547

Start to Run 1.549

 

Doing the ground test one lead to a clean piece of copper. other lead to all three compressor terminal registered as 0.L

 

I don't understand why the multimeter numbers are so vastly different now. Just after the spark the numbers were:

 

Common to Run: 4

Common to Start: 5.5

Start to Run: 10

 

 

Starter relay and the running capacitor checked out fine.

 

There is no sign of anything had arced or burned .

 

There is one thing I just realized. The Guardette was NOT attached to the compressor when I ran that test. So it could not sense the heat of the compressor as it started to overheat. The amp load reached about 7 just while I was unplugging the refrigerator when it flashed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Post# 1044848 , Reply# 81   9/14/2019 at 04:14 (1,657 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        
Testing...

Yeah; this was not the findings we had hoped for.

 

To clarify what Louis said above about the numbers; the multimeter he is using is auto-ranging and there is a detail which is very important. I have added the red below:

 

Common to Run : 2.3 Ω

Common to Start: 1.547 MΩ

Start to Run 1.549 MΩ

 

The "MΩ" is measuring in megohms; or millions of ohms. This is essentially an open circuit. The fact that any measurement from the Start terminal is reading in megohms means that the start winding is open circuit.

 

As far as why, I don't know for sure. The start-relay checks out good (contacts open and close when relay is flipped over) and the capacitor checks out good (not shorted and value is correct).

 

The only theory I have is that the winding was already damaged by previous failure of a start-relay and/or guardette. This could explain the mysterious failures of the Supco relays to start the compressor.

 

When using a run capacitor, it does cause the start winding to carry some current and to have a higher operating voltage than it would have when used for starting only. This is normally not a problem. However, with pre-existing damage to the winding insulation, the insulation could have failed, allowing an arc inside the compressor, which could result in an open start winding.

 

As far as the guardette not being in contact with the compressor, that wouldn't matter in this case. While it is true that these are sensitive to temperature; this is for longterm and gradual overheating such as blocked airflow or no refrigerant charge. The guardette is mainly an overcurrent device, so even though it was not touching the compressor body; the current was still passing through it and therefore it would have tripped if needed.

 

 


Post# 1044850 , Reply# 82   9/14/2019 at 05:41 (1,657 days old) by sfh074 ( )        
Well crap Louie .....

My guess is the windings were already compromised due to the amount of current the watt meter was reading before adding the run cap. A vintage 60's 1/3hp compressor (using mine as a reference) should have a nominal run current of less than 3 amps. When mine has been running and the interior of the cabinet is at low temp, mine clocks at 1.7 amps. If a condenser fan is running add another 0.5 amps or so, assuming no defrost heaters are energized. Since you were reading 5.8 amps continuous, wanting to add a run cap was a good thought, but since hindsight is 20/20 .... I'm thinking there was an existing problem with the compressor to begin with. Adding a run cap to any single phase ac motor should not cause any problems, if the motor is good. If said run cap actually provides any benefit (reduction in power consumption) is a gamble, but in theory lowering the power factor by way of a run cap typically reduces current draw by a reasonable amount.

Since you had to replace the start relay and overload protector initially, which probably was a good indicator there was an underlying issue .... you probably would have encountered the compressor giving up the ghost sooner than later, even if you hadn't added the cap.

Don't give up .... too nice of a fridge to toss!




This post was last edited 09/14/2019 at 08:46
Post# 1044853 , Reply# 83   9/14/2019 at 07:53 (1,657 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Bad compressor On Your Birthday

combo52's profile picture

Bummer

 

Thank You David and Bud for your excellent diagnosis and help with Louies GE refrigerator.

 

I knew the compressor was likely toast from the high amp readings he was getting with the 3-in-1 relay he had on it.

 

Because I work 5 days a week helping dozens of people every working day with appliance problems I was not able to put in the time trying to walk you through something you were unlikely to be able to fix. When you were buying this non-working refrigerator the plan was to leave it at Martins in NJ where either my Brother Jeff or I could test and repair it during our visits there.

 

The best way to fix it now would be to install a modern approximately 1000 BTU compressor Like Cory did in his mid 60s GE. I also have an original GE compressor or two laying around and even an extra complete sealed refrigeration system for this ref that was removed in tact. We have three of these refs running every day the one in the W Va house for over 20 years, if one of these fails I would install a modern compressor, as good as these GE compressors were nothing lasts forever.

 

Good luck with it and stop having birthdays on Friday the 13th, LOL

 

John L.


Post# 1044867 , Reply# 84   9/14/2019 at 11:18 (1,657 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Thanks guys for your in depth analysis.

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Well then. Another refrigerator heading south to join the compressor conga line. If anything, it's going to be a very instructive weekend.

 

 


Post# 1050534 , Reply# 85   11/10/2019 at 15:13 (1,599 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Quick update.

 

The G.E. is now in southern New Jersey.  Last week, John (Combo52) confirmed the compressor needs to be replaced. I am still hopeful someone will be able to repair it. If not, as much as it breaks my heart, it will have to be recycled. I do not have the space to store it, and I can not let it take up space in someone else's home indefinitely.


Post# 1050569 , Reply# 86   11/10/2019 at 18:37 (1,599 days old) by ken (NYS)        

ken's profile picture
That's sad to hear. I hate the idea of that beautiful fridge being scrapped. If only you were nearer to David(turbokinetic). As we see from his posts replacing a compressor is not difficult when one has the know-how. But its the idea of finding someone today who wants to be bothered to do it. Most everyone today has the throw away and buy new mind set.

Post# 1050581 , Reply# 87   11/10/2019 at 19:57 (1,599 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Trust me, scrapping this refrigerator would be with a heavy heart. I would love David to work on it. But the freight cost to and from Alabama would be prohibitive.


Post# 1050616 , Reply# 88   11/10/2019 at 23:00 (1,599 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

Reply #87

 

Louis, rent a U-Haul trailer. Make a road trip. In the case of shipping, one can spend time in lieu of money as an alternative.

 

 


Post# 1052093 , Reply# 89   11/23/2019 at 16:11 (1,586 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Much appreciated David. However the GE is going down to Beltsville MD to be repaired. I would still like to swing by you in the Spring to meet you in person and see your fantastic collection though. Thanks again for the offer!


Post# 1052880 , Reply# 90   12/1/2019 at 19:20 (1,578 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Well, the wandering GE is now down in Maryland waiting for a heart transplant.


Post# 1066658 , Reply# 91   4/9/2020 at 16:21 (1,448 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
An update...

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

Jeff Lefever (Jeff_adelfi) has whipped out his big magic wand...

 

GE Repair 1

 

GE Repair 2

 

GE Repair 3

 

GE Repair 4

 

Thanks Jason!

 

 


Post# 1066677 , Reply# 92   4/9/2020 at 18:15 (1,448 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        
The laying of the Hammer....

... upon the compressor is a sure fire fix for everything short of a broken heart!

 

So glad to see this getting some attention!


Post# 1067230 , Reply# 93   4/13/2020 at 17:18 (1,444 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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I love a man who does neat work.

 

1a

 

1b

 

1c


Post# 1067237 , Reply# 94   4/13/2020 at 18:16 (1,444 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

1d

 

A work of art.

1e


Post# 1067248 , Reply# 95   4/13/2020 at 20:17 (1,444 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        
Very, vary nice....

... tubing job!  That looks much nicer than any modern factory fridge you can buy today. Quite impressed!


Post# 1067249 , Reply# 96   4/13/2020 at 20:44 (1,444 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

I know right? The man is a master.


Post# 1067665 , Reply# 97   4/16/2020 at 18:32 (1,441 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

 

1966 GE New Embraco compressor

 

 

What a beautiful sound.




 


Post# 1068248 , Reply# 98   4/20/2020 at 03:15 (1,438 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

ultramatic's profile picture

 

 

John gave me an update: It's cooling wonderfully, the compressor runs far less. The evaporator fan motor seems to be getting noisy, so it might be replaced. Sadly, I will have to wait to go get it. Damn.




This post was last edited 04/20/2020 at 07:24
Post# 1068276 , Reply# 99   4/20/2020 at 07:11 (1,438 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
1966 GE Botton Freezer Refrigerator Updates

combo52's profile picture

It is cooling well, we already replaced the condenser fan motor with a ECM type, power consumption of the CFM went from 40 watts to 5.

 

It is the fresh food evaporator fan motor that is getting a little noisy that I am keeping an eye on.

 

I will also replace the Defrost timer, it has the wrong type on it, it is defrosting too often and for too long, this ref should only defrost for about 10 minutes.

 

John L.


Post# 1068277 , Reply# 100   4/20/2020 at 07:22 (1,438 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Wow John, the GE is becoming virtually a new refrigerator.


Post# 1076074 , Reply# 101   6/6/2020 at 17:23 (1,390 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Got a text from John this morning. Apparently the cold control in the freezer section has failed. He's going to try and find a suitable replacement. Or perhaps I can find one online. I guess it's was fortunate it failed while still in Beltsville.


Post# 1090160 , Reply# 102   9/21/2020 at 13:19 (1,283 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        

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Post# 1123059 , Reply# 103   7/12/2021 at 10:55 (990 days old) by Ultramatic (New York City)        
Disregard prior post

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