Thread Number: 80529
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Differences Between Speed Queen TL Series 9 and TC5000 |
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Post# 1044981   9/15/2019 at 13:06 (1,656 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Having seen posts from AW members PinkPower4 and Ladd, along with input from many others in various threads/posts, I'd like to gather information related to the TC5000 and how it differs from the 2017 Series 9 in this thread. Sort of a 'before and after the TR series disaster' look at the brand's toploader.
Interesting changes were made during Speed Queen's "lost year."
NORMAL ECO CYCLE:
In the video below, Eugene (lorainfurniture) runs a complete Normal Eco cycle on the TC5000 with the Heavy Soil option (there is no 'Heavy Duty' option as the title of the video suggests; we all know what he means). The cycle does, indeed, run for 59+ minutes, and most of it is agitation. A heads-up about the new super-extended cycle was gleaned from a TC5000 cycle chart someone posted recently. A video commenter states they clocked about 25 minutes of wash agitation. That is some serious wash time and will undoubtedly boost cleaning scores in the next CR test.
CR tests washers on the Normal cycle with the heaviest soil level option. They also test using an 8-lb. load, which shouldn't ding the score for 'gentleness to fabrics' too much. However...if you stuff the TC5000's tub with a maximum-capacity load and let 'er rip on the Normal cycle coupled with the heavy soil option you may find yourself pulling a lot of shirt buttons from the bottom of the tub at the end of the cycle. And here’s why:
In default mode, the TC5000 fills to—what is on my Series 9–the 'medium' water level. After about 10 minutes of agitation, the machine stops and fills to the 'large' water level. After a 5 minute soak, agitation continues until the spin/spray rinse protocol begins.
By contrast, the Series 9 fills to the selected water level (small; medium; large; ex large). I’m going to assume this potential problem is avoided by selecting the Deep Fill option when washing a big load on the Normal Cycle.
Differences so far in the cycle:
The Series 9 fills to the selected water level; score 1 for it. The TC5000, however, fills with the actual water temp selected. The Series 9: If warm or hot water is selected, it fills with a few inches of warm water, then switches to cold for the remainder of the fill. Score 1 for the TC.
The Series 9 agitates for 6-14 (or so) minutes depending on the soil level selection. The Magic Minute-like initial agitation with a more concentrated detergent solution on the TC5000 is great---although I wouldn't want a maximum-capacity load of clothes subjected to high speed agitation for that long before more water is added.
Spray Rinse Protocol: The TC5000's (like the Series 9's), first spray rinse occurs when almost all the wash water has been spun from the tub. Here's where things differ: The TC5000 continues to spin and occasionally spray rinse without stopping until the final (high speed) spin begins.
The Series 9: The spin stops momentarily at the same time it would if it was going to fill for a deep rinse. Then it kicks back into another slow spin. A spray rinse occurs immediately--which I like because the tub is still moving slowly; gives the water more of a chance to penetrate the load. Toward the end of this '2nd spin' there's another spray rinse. Spinning stops momentarily before proceeding to the final (high speed) spin. This last bit is the same as the TC 5000.
This post was last edited 09/15/2019 at 14:18 |
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Post# 1044993 , Reply# 1   9/15/2019 at 14:21 (1,656 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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The TC5/ TC500/ Classic/ AWN632SP116TW01 has knobs with electronic controls (not the old mechanical controls), 6 preset cycles, 4 temp selections, and a deep fill (not sure how it works vs full fill on 9 series) and 3-year warranty possibly 10-year warranty before Sept 30?
9 series has electronic controls, 9 preset cycles, 4 temp selections, full tub wash and rinse, and 2nd and 3rd rinse and if you select both you get 4 rinses (which is a ton of water use) and 5-year warranty. 8 series and mechanical models have few less options. I'd be happy with any of them but the 9 series has the most flexible set of options, the 5-year warranty, and was worth the extra $100 or so premium. TC500WN is closer to 8 series but has knobs connecting to electronics controls and sells for a lot more at $1,029. 9 series and 8 series have push-button electronic controls and the 2017 models with knobs had mechanical controls. TC500WN doesn't have the water level selection options 2017 models had but does have a deep fill button. The 9 series is the best one (and the one I own). The 8 series is also better than the TC500WN and has a few more features. 2017 mechanical models with mechanical timers and water level controls are also better than the TC500WN. But the TC500WN is the best washer you can buy new. I'd probably pick a new in box TC500WN with warranty over a used 2017 model. This post was last edited 09/15/2019 at 17:26 |
Post# 1045040 , Reply# 3   9/15/2019 at 23:11 (1,656 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Update: Hopped over to CR online to see if they’d tested the TC5000 yet–checked a week or so ago and they hadn’t—and there it was!
Not surprisingly, the wash performance score increased to Very Good, only one of three agitator models receive that designation. Gentleness score was dinged by the greatly lengthened wash agitation. It received an overall score of 61. What DID surprise me is that the three TR models zipped up the ranks. Washing performance rose from Poor to Fair. Looks like something must have been tweaked—cycle time, maybe? Increase in the number of quick-strokes during agitation? The TR’s overall score ended up one point higher than the TC, which is mind-blowing. CR used to claim that wash performance was the most heavily-weighted score. The TC did much better in that area. However, the TC scored lower than the TR in Energy Efficiency, Gentleness and Noise. I’ve never made a decision on an appliance purchase over 1 measly point at CR, but it will be interesting to see the reviews section if people buy the TR rather than the TC, despite its clobbering the transmissionless machine in wash performance. |
Post# 1045092 , Reply# 6   9/16/2019 at 12:05 (1,655 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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All of these the TC5, 8 series, 9 series, and AWN432 are great washers. I like the features of the 9 series, and some prefer the mechanical controls of the AWN432. TC5 costs more than it should but I'd still buy it over the Maytag MVWP575GW. Also, like the Speed Queen FL FR7002WN, but it's $1,889.00 and at 3.5 cu ft. small for an FL.
8 series main advantages over the TC5 is water level selector (which may no longer be permitted due to new DOE regs) that it sold for $899, count down timer, and push-button electronic controls (which may be a minus to some). Very similar specs too. 8 series vs TC5 Width - 25 5/8 in same Depth - 28 in same Height - in 43 in vs 42-3/4 in basically the same Capacity – 3.3 cu ft vs 3.2 cu ft basically the same Approx. Shipping Weight - lb 195 (not listed for TC5) Cost $899 vs $1029 for TC5 |
Post# 1045125 , Reply# 7   9/16/2019 at 20:35 (1,655 days old) by thomasward00 (KENTWOOD)   |   | |
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The TC series will be gone within a few years, the TR will be tweaked over the coming years. The TC was made to quiet the internet crybabies. |
Post# 1045128 , Reply# 8   9/16/2019 at 21:27 (1,655 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Post# 1045131 , Reply# 9   9/16/2019 at 22:37 (1,655 days old) by thomasward00 (KENTWOOD)   |   | |
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When my old kenmore died, my friend actually recommended SQ, I know 2 other people that have TR series washers, no one has complained about cleaning issues, I don't know what people are trying to wash... |
Post# 1045134 , Reply# 10   9/16/2019 at 23:11 (1,655 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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There are any number of knowledgeable people washing real-world loads of medium-to-heavy soil on the TR’s Heavy Duty cycle in warm water with high-performing detergents. When they pull items out of the machine at the end of the cycle, many are still soiled/stained.
Both professional testing organizations and reputable people using the washer in consumer applications find the same thing: The machine demonstrates poor washing performance in all but the lightest-soil conditions. It struggles to clean fabrics that are relatively stiff (jeans, for instance) and large articles. I purchased a Series 9 pair for myself and one for my sister in the summer of 2017. Last year, the neighbor who lives in the condo above hers purchased a Speed Queen set on my sister’s recommendation. The woman was very disappointed, complaining that it did not clean well. The washer is a TR7. My sister had no idea the machine had been redesigned and felt bad about making the recommendation. After all, she’s very pleased with her Series 9. This post was last edited 09/17/2019 at 04:52 |
Post# 1045148 , Reply# 11   9/17/2019 at 06:30 (1,654 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Have been a resounding sales failure do to poor cleaning performance and no amount of cycle tweaking will solve a bad mechanical design, not only is cleaning poor it uses WAY too much water, detergent and hot water for what it does.
I will bet that SQ is working on design changes.
3.5 CF for a HD front load washer is big enough for any home use, it will easily wash the biggest thickest bedding etc.
I would guess that the TC TL design will stick around till a redesign of the TR models is out and running.
John |
Post# 1045238 , Reply# 16   9/18/2019 at 00:39 (1,653 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1045255 , Reply# 19   9/18/2019 at 06:50 (1,653 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Another difference between the TC5000 and the Series 9 (or 9 Series if you prefer):
I am forever grateful to Malcolm (mrb627) for posting this hack. You can skip to the next part of any cycle simply by pressing the WHITES and PERM PRESS pads simultaneously. I use this wonderful little hack frequently. It provides the all the flexibility of a mechanical timer. You can jump around in any cycle simply by pressing a couple of pads. Case in point: Most small loads deserve slow agitation and require only spray rinses. I also like to wash loads of colors (shirts, dress shorts, etc.) the same way. I choose the BULKY cycle, let it fill and agitate, then return to the machine, power it down, select NORMAL ECO and press start. Agitation begins immediately because the tub is already filled. I press WHITES and PERM PRESS together and the machine jumps to the spin-drain/spray rinse portion of the cycle. Does anyone know if there’s a way to advance to the next operation in the cycle on the TC5000? brisnat81: Thanks for video of the vintage Fisher & Paykel. Are today’s F&P washers made the same way? Agitation in the video has the same distinctive sound I hear in videos of the brand’s newer machines. thomasward00: Since most of your laundry is lightly soiled, the TR fits your needs—especially if reliability is your primary concern—and it’s very quiet, as well.
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This post was last edited 09/18/2019 at 07:22 |
Post# 1045293 , Reply# 21   9/18/2019 at 13:08 (1,653 days old) by eurekastar (Amarillo, Texas)   |   | |
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Post# 1045312 , Reply# 22   9/18/2019 at 16:27 (1,653 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)   |   | |
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Hi Eugene By the early 90s they moved to the Smartdrive DD pancake motor that is still in use today. I suggest the Gentle Annie option for SQ because that is what they’ve already built, the just neglected to add seperate agitate and spin shafts. Cheers Nathan |
Post# 1045318 , Reply# 23   9/18/2019 at 17:20 (1,653 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1045497 , Reply# 27   9/20/2019 at 12:35 (1,651 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)   |   | |
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Most bearing troubles are not caused by speed, out of balance, reversing etc. Bad seals let water into bearings that's where the trouble starts. |
Post# 1045770 , Reply# 28   9/23/2019 at 14:46 (1,648 days old) by Blackstone (Springfield, Massachusetts)   |   | |
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I have read and reread the SQ discussion here, and I'm glad that I did. I agree that the mechanical design of the TC is better than the TR redesign. I went into the dealer today, intending to buy the TC5000. The SQ models on the floor were TRs. I had the ask the salesman for the TC. Is it safe to assume that dealers are trying to unload the TR models that they have in inventory?
If the same situation had been around when I was a dealer, I can imagine that it would be difficult to explain the difference in mechanics to the average customer. Tough call. Delivery on Friday. Still keeping my 28-year-old Amana, in case I run across a good motor for it. |
Post# 1045773 , Reply# 29   9/23/2019 at 15:20 (1,648 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Congratulations on your new purchase!
Interesting that you found only TR models on the showroom floor; same thing at my local dealer. He had four TR pairs on the floor. When I asked about ordering the TC, he immediately tried to talk me into the TR—“It’s a better machine! Cleans better (yeah, right) and is super quiet!” Wonder if SQ/Alliance is giving dealers an incentive of some sort to push the TRs. By the way, I was washer shopping for a friend, not for myself. In the end, I suggested she get an LG3500 front-loader. She loves it! Personally, I’d want the LG3900 with the new Turbo Wash 360 system and an internal water heater, but neither of those things were important to her. And she saved about $250. |
Post# 1046096 , Reply# 30   9/27/2019 at 09:26 (1,644 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)   |   | |
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"The Series 9 fills to the selected water level; score 1 for it. The TC5000, however, fills with the actual water temp selected. The Series 9: If warm or hot water is selected, it fills with a few inches of warm water, then switches to cold for the remainder of the fill. Score 1 for the TC."
My 2017 9 series fills with whatever temperature is selected for the entirety of the fill. |
Post# 1046106 , Reply# 31   9/27/2019 at 11:18 (1,644 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Post# 1046108 , Reply# 32   9/27/2019 at 12:09 (1,644 days old) by IIIJohnnyMacIII (North Carolina)   |   | |
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“Hi John-- Are you sure your Series 9 SQ fills with the selected temp on the Normal/Eco cycle? That's the only cycle that fills with a few inches of warm water, then switches to cold for the remainder of the fill. All other cycles fill completely with the selected temp. “
I stand corrected! Wow! On Eco it did change to cold after 3 inches of water. And hot was only warm. |
Post# 1046272 , Reply# 34   9/29/2019 at 10:25 (1,642 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Thanks for that clarification! I have never selected an extra rinse when using the Normal Eco cycle. I use that cycle specifically for the water-saving spray rinses.
I’m going to choose an extra rinse to see if that makes the Series 9 fill with the selected wash temp. It seems that choosing an extra rinse basically replicates the Heavy Duty cycle with an extra rinse. |
Post# 1046477 , Reply# 35   9/30/2019 at 21:47 (1,641 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)   |   | |
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Normal Eco Cycle Series 9: Unlike the TC5000, which Ladd reports fills with the selected wash temp if you choose the extra rinse option, my 2017 Series 9 fills with a few inches of warm water and then shifts to cold for the remainder of the fill, even if you choose 1, 2, or 3 extra rinses.
And now we know! |
Post# 1077478 , Reply# 37   6/16/2020 at 23:30 (1,381 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Post# 1077579 , Reply# 39   6/17/2020 at 17:58 (1,380 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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BUT, no detergent manufacturer or washer manufacturer the world over recommends doing so, So there is probably very little positive effect over not rinsing in cold water water.
If you use a hot wash as you should for best cleaning with minimal detergent the machine and clothing will be hot enough to warm up the rinse somewhat anyway.
Using a warm rinse also encourages mold and bacteria Growth in your clean clothing and the washer as well, cold water helps keep bacteria at bay.
Not wasting hot water for rinsing is a simple and effective step to help prevent serious climate change without giving up much if anything.
John L. |
Post# 1077591 , Reply# 41   6/17/2020 at 19:08 (1,380 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)   |   | |
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If you wash in hot, rinsing in cold will shock the fabric and shrink it. When I wash in hot water, I rinse in warm. When I wash in warm, I rinse in cold. |
Post# 1077630 , Reply# 42   6/17/2020 at 22:36 (1,380 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi M, where have you seen it said that detergent and appliance makers say cold rinses are 60F ?
Hi Ken, I guess that if washing in hot water and rinsing in cold shocks and shrinks clothing millions of people the world over must be destroying their damp clothing by ironing it with a hot iron, I have never heard such nonsense, LOL
John L. |
Post# 1077638 , Reply# 43   6/17/2020 at 23:31 (1,380 days old) by MP (US)   |   | |
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Mostly thru contacting manufacturers of Tide and Persil and also either reading manuals of different washers or doing "chats" with the companies (I forget which one.) |
Post# 1079944 , Reply# 44   7/5/2020 at 17:39 (1,362 days old) by dylanmitchell (Southern California)   |   | |
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Tap water here comes in at 60-70 degrees and can be over 75 degrees in the summer, so almost every load is done with cold water. Sun heats water in above ground municipal strorage tanks and our pipes re only a foot or two deep so they absorb heat too. It's also common to see washing machines and water heaters in unheated garages.
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Post# 1079957 , Reply# 45   7/5/2020 at 18:50 (1,362 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1081903 , Reply# 46   7/21/2020 at 16:18 (1,346 days old) by panasonicvac (Northern Utah)   |   | |
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I'm glad I was able to come across reading the differences between the old 2017 models and the new TC5. A couple years ago, I was very fortunate enough to use two AWN412SP111TW01 washers (I'm not sure how old they really were but they look like one of their 2017 models) for half a year. It was my very first SQ experience and also my first discovery about SQ. Boy where have I been all these years lol, these instantly became my new favorite washers since using my grandparent's Kenmore 90 Series. I was disappointed to hear about the performances of the new TR series, a year ago I recommended my uncle a SQ and that's what he ended up getting. It wasn't shortly until I found out SQ had completely redesigned their top load washers and I was worried that my uncle went with one of the TR models. But he and his wife have been really pleased with it so far. I don't know which one they got but hopefully sometime this year I will find out for sure. I will be very surprised if it is in fact one of the TR models but I'm hoping that it's a TC5 because I would very much like to try it out for myself. I'm very interested in getting one for my own place one of these days. If not, then I would be interested to look into one of their used 2017 models or older like this set that I've used last year. I don't know what models both of them were. Maybe a SQ expert can help identify them? I think they were from 1995 based on the energy guide label from the washer.
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