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Thread Number: 80718
/ Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
BUMMER......HELP?? |
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| Post# 1047070 10/7/2019 at 12:56 (1,661 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
Why is that appliances are like Christmas lights. When put in storage working fine, they come out broken. Finally got the 63 Hotpoint D.W. hooked up by the plumber. I was not there when he did it. He texted saying there was a water leak on the feed side of machine. I understand that the solenoid valve can get wonky in storage.He disconnected one of the power liners at the solenoid, so I'm guessing that is where he saw the leak.
I went to try the machine for myself this morning. I didn't even get a chance to see the water leak, because the motor sounded like a Rock Crusher and smoked really badly. I can't imagine what could be in there causing that noise. I have never worked on a DW. Can anyone offer advice, please, on how to inspect inside the motor, and determine if it is usable? This was working when it was removed from it's house. ServPro broke off part of the air gap. I wonder if they broke anything else. Any help, advice, pointers would be Greatly appreciated. Thanks Again Everyone. Louis | ||
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Post# 1047072 , Reply# 1 10/7/2019 at 13:26 (1,661 days old) by turquoisedude  (.) |
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Oh boy.... Louis, you may wind up having to remove the dishwasher to work on the motor.
What I'd suggest right now would be to remove the screen above the impeller and see if you can see anything that has fallen into the sump area just below the impeller. You may need to use your hands to feel around inside the sump; I'd suggest wearing gloves in case there is a piece of broken glass or a dish in there. If there is something in there, remove it and try spinning the impeller by hand. It should turn easily; if it doesn't that could mean a bad motor bearing. The smoking could have been caused by the motor's start winding not kicking out; this would indicate a problem like a bad starting switch or perhaps a relay that is not cutting the start winding out quickly enough. I'm sure others will have suggestions, too. Good luck and keep us posted!! | ||
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Post# 1047074 , Reply# 2 10/7/2019 at 13:55 (1,661 days old) by reactor (Oak Ridge, Tennessee-- ) |
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beautiful machine, sad beginning
What a beautiful machine, Louis. Sad you are having such a rough start. Yes, I know of those demons that delight in knotting up your carefully put away Christmas lights and then loosen a bulb or two bulbs so the string will not light. Apparently your demon got bored with the lights and played with your beautiful Hotpoint dishwasher.
Combo John (John L) is our expert on repair. but a few ideas until he chimes in. I am assuming the solenoid is leaking on the outside of the machine and not leaking water into the tub. Is this correct? If it is leaking on the outside, I would check the obvious first. Your installer was a professional, but not infallible. Did he use a copper line with compression fitting or a flexible stainless of polymer inlet line? I have sometimes fits with compression fittings! Turnoff the water and undo it. Use some Teflon tape on the threads and made sure the compression ring is not bent or distorted. Use a new one if it is. If the compression fitting does not go on easily he may have cross threaded it and ruined the threads on your solenoid. that may take multiple efforts to get the compression fitting to rescrew onto the solenoid. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. If he ruined the solenoid, no fear. I don't know about 1963, but all dishwasher now use 3/8" fittings and you may be able use a solenoid from any dishwasher to replace yours if the inlet is 3/8" I have used GE inlet solenoids on Whirlpools, Maytag's on GE's etc. Often they are made by the same supplier. You may have to customized the mount a bit. But it should be no big deal to replace it, often the out from the solenoid to the tub is rubber with a clamp. Make sure you have no leaks there as well and that the rubber is not getting rotted or split. You would only get a leak here when the solnoid is open and the machine is filling. If it is leaking water into the tub, even though the machine is off, your plunger is not fully seating in into the valve seat. Hard water deposits or dirt may be present. You maybe able to clean it enough for it to seat, make sure the plunger is not bound and moves freely. The rubber seal on the solenoid face may be deteriorated. In which case, once again, it is easier to replace the entire solenoid. If unable to do this, I have had good results with automotive "Form a gasket" which comes in a tube. It a goes on as a liquid but forms a permanent seal as it dries. Just apply it carefully as to not get any excess into the valve. I hope you didn't let the motor run so long that it burnt out or permanently damaged it. When a motor smokes, it is burning insulation off of the windings, by that time its often a goner. My guess is the bearings have frozen. See if the impeller is easily turned by hand. It should coast just a little bit if you twirl it and release. If it is frozen or very hard to turn, take the motor out and saturated the bearings with a penetrating oil. My favorite for unfreezing motor bearings is FDeep Creep" by SeaFoam. I get it at O'Reilly Auto Parts. I had the fan on the outdoor unit of a heat pump freeze up solid. I could not turn it all by hand by soaking both bearings in penetrating oil and working the rotor loose, I got it so I could twirl the fan with one finger and it would coast with ease. It worked perfectly for years after that. I don't know If GE used a start capacitor in '63, on their motors. If so your capacitor could be bad and smoked. Check for that as well. They are replaceable with standard stock capacitor, just makes sure your electrical values are the same. That is a really nice machine, I wish you well in getting it up and running! | ||
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Post# 1047108 , Reply# 3 10/7/2019 at 21:43 (1,661 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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1963 Hotpoint DW Hi Louis, If you are lucky there may be foreign crap in the drain pump etc.
Unfortunately you only real hope of using this DW was if it was virtually unused and it actually worked when it was hooked up.
The most reliable DWs during this time period were GEs, the best built and most repairable DWs were KAs and the most unreliable and shortest lived were Hotpoint DWs and probably Waste King.
These are really tough DWs to repair, and I don't know of anyone in the last 25+ years that actually had one of these that worked.
If you want to bring it down to the shop we can take a look at it, but pump and motor parts are pretty tough to find.
For a vintage DW I would look at a Kitchenaid KD-15 series or newer.
John L. | ||
| Post# 1047126 , Reply# 4 10/8/2019 at 06:47 (1,661 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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I hate it But what John says is exactly right, The problem isn't fixing it Its FINDING THE PARTS to fix it! I wish I could help Our old Hotpoint dealer lost all his old parts in a fire years ago or I might COULD help. | ||
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Post# 1047129 , Reply# 5 10/8/2019 at 07:15 (1,661 days old) by Unimatic1140 (Minneapolis) |
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It depends what's wrong with the machine, you may be able to retro-fit parts. The leak should be relatively simple to fix. Can you determine if the sounds that machine is making is coming from the wash impeller area or is it coming from the drain pump? You might want to remove the wash impeller and run the motor and see what happens, but be sure the water is turned off as to not cause any water leaks into the motor assembly.
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Post# 1047143 , Reply# 6 10/8/2019 at 11:03 (1,661 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York) |
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maybe some of this will help? Here are a few pages scanned from an old Hotpoint service manual regarding the motor. Maybe they will help you to understand what's going on. | ||
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Post# 1047149 , Reply# 7 10/8/2019 at 11:33 (1,660 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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HP DW Motor and Pump Reply # 6 is very helpful It shows the motor and pump assembly your DW uses in pictures #1&7, Do note that pictures # 4,5 & 6 are a GE style pump and motor that is not the same as what you have at all [ it was also light years better than the HP pump and motor ]
The real question is what shape your motor and upper drain pump housing are in, as noted in the text this HP unit was not serviced in the field, because of the pot-metal housing these corroded badly and did not come apart easily for repairs.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1047161 , Reply# 8 10/8/2019 at 14:06 (1,660 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR) |
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Vintage Dishwashers
I know you are disappointed over the prospect that you might not get your dishwasher running. I hope you do but if you don't, I can promise you if I can work on a vintage dishwasher anyone can. With the resources available here and some parts availability via eBay and other sources you'll be fine and if you want a vintage machine as your daily driver you can't be a KA.
I've attached a production sheet that we have had floating around here for years. You can use this guide to see which model falls into the year you're going for. Based on my own experience I agree with John that a 15 series or newer would suit you well and they clean like crazy.
I have worked on a 15, 17, 20 and 21. All of which were very easy to do. There are guides here on this site you can download. You can have the metal panels matched to the rest of your appliances and I bet you'll be very happy with it.
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Post# 1047187 , Reply# 9 10/8/2019 at 18:35 (1,660 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York) |
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thought.... Perhaps the guys who un-installed it tossed the mounting screws inside without thinking about the future. We used to do that (screws, panels, kick plate) when the old dishwasher was getting scrapped. Just a thought. | ||
| Post# 1047267 , Reply# 10 10/9/2019 at 13:13 (1,659 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
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LEAVE IT TO ME TO HAVE THE BOL MACHINE......
From a BOL Manufacturer. That sums up my life/lol
Sorry for delay in replying. I had to get to a computer to respond. Could not write this on the phone. Lol THANK YOU everyone who responded. I'll try to address all your points, so that this situation makes sense. I got this machine in 2012 when I looked at house that I wanted to buy, but was changing mortgage companies, and it sold w/in 2 weeks. It was an All Original ranch from 63. Original owner was there 90yrs Old. His kids were moving him out because his wife recently passed. Everything in the Kitchen was still in use and great shape - All Turquoise - GE Frostguard Fridge, Caloric Ultramatic Cooktop, Caloric Range Hood, Caloric Observador Oven, Turq Sink, and the Hot Point D.W. I went after the suite, because I knew whoever bought the house, would toss them.I got a call after the closing from the new owner, worked out a price (a whole other story/lol), and went to get them. My friends and I disconnected the D.W. ourselves (hard piped & hard wired). I checked it before removal and it was working fine. We packed up everything and it went straight into My Storage units. I was living back home with Mom and Dad to save for the house. I closed on the house in 2014. All the appliances came to the house, but were not put into service, except for the Fridge. I had work to do in the kitchen to install these appliances. Mom and Dad had needed more help with their health conditions, so I basically put settling in on hold. The only room that was set up was my bedroom. The kitchen was minimalist, and the bath was good. Mom passed 6 months after Dad in May of last year. I now knew I had to get working on the house. About a Month after Mom passed, My job was eliminated, and 2 weeks after that the house caught fire. The appliances all got wet but were OK. Now My house is nearing completion. The kitchen is just about together. Please note, that although I knew this was not TOL, it is the same D.W. my parents had as their first one, handed down from my mother's sister. The distinct smell of the interior, brings me back to when I was young. The D.W. is the last thing that needs to be secured in place. It has not been yet, for the purposes of checking operation. It is actually a very easy install. The sink cabinet was custom made. The water line is hooked up with a Braided flex hose,and electric with an appliance cord (NJ Code). The leak is coming from the solenoid. The plumber hooked it up, and it figures it was one of the only times I was not around. He texted and said, "D.W. hooked up/leak on water feed - appliance side". When I got to the house and looked for myself, I saw the he disconnected one of the elec leads to the solenoid. I turned the machine on, solenoid disconnected, just to make sure the motor ran. I was going to hand fill machine with Hot Water, let it sit to check the seal and let the motor pump it out. That's when I heard the noise, saw and smelled the smoke. I shut it off. I spun the impeller by hand, and although it moved easily, I could hear the gravelly sound it made when running. I removed the lower basket, and the screen, and checked the pump blade area below the impeller. I looked in and saw what seemed to be very small pieces of nut shell, and some debris that looks like it could be from the broken air gap-bakelite?. I removed all of it from the pump blade and hand spun the impeller. It spins easily and without noise. I also found traces of dried soap powder in the the bottom of the machine, but not under impeller. Note, I had cleaned the machine from top to bottom as soon as it came out of ServPros storage, and there was no dried soap or debris at that time. I stuck my finger in the fill hole and felt some loose debris that seemed to fall a little lower. Remember,I had previously repaired the Water Gap, the best I could, using Plumbers Putty and Robert's diagram, as he suggested. I never saw any broken pieces in there, but maybe there were some in the bottom at the "trap". The bigger missing pieces would not be able to fit down the opening. I'm Wondering now, if when the plumber first turned it on, the rush of water into the air gap shot debris out of the fill hole and it went into the pump plate area. As stupid as it sounds, I have fixed cars, small appliances, done electrical, some plumbing, etc., but have never repaired major appliances. I like this machine. It is physically in great shape,ie. racks, porcelain, paint, etc., and it is sentimental. I would like to save it and use it. However, I won't be devastated, if I can't. I haven't turned it on again for fear of damaging the motor further. I don't know what to do next to diagnose/repair. Question? Would the same era GE Motor Pump assembly fit this machine? My final Inspections are a week from today, so the machine needs to stay in place till they are done. I def would like to bring it to John L. but I do not want to waste his time, if this machine is most likely a goner, or really a loser to begin with. Any direction, help, etc would be appreciated? I would LOVE a Kitchenaid Superba, as John suggested, but so does everyone else here/lol. I obviously don't have luck finding the good stuff. If I did find one, I'd install it now and put the Hotpoint on the side, just to investigate later on. There is a nice Turquoise Superba in Hudson Valley, NY, I've tried several times to buy, from a contractor. He listed a large Turquoise kitchen on CL in March this year for 10K/15K?. He had no problem selling the laundry sink to me separately, but insists he wants the D.W. to stay with the rest of the pieces. I believe it is still unsold. I wrote him again yesterday, but have not heard back yet. I really hoped I would have my kitchen installed and working, all in one shot. Looks like I got stuck trying to "polish a turd", again. LOL. Thank you ALL for Responding and Listening. Any thoughts are definitely welcome. Best Washes, Louis | ||
| Post# 1047274 , Reply# 11 10/9/2019 at 13:50 (1,659 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
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ANY THOUGHTS ON...
K.A. KDP-18 Dishwasher. I found one on CL w/in travelling distance.
What does the "P" stand for? Any thoughts on this machine- Good/Bad? Are there any "KD" Models I should avoid? Thanks again. This post was last edited 10/09/2019 at 14:35 | ||
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Post# 1047275 , Reply# 12 10/9/2019 at 14:01 (1,659 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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Smoke smell
Louis, dumb question, but did you actually see smoke coming from the motor panel or did you smell something that was like burning grease?
A dishwasher like yours would be powering the Calrod heater throughout the cycle to help keep the wash and rinse water nice and hot. It's very possible that what you were smelling was just accumulated dust and crud 'cooking off' the Calrod heater. It's scared the bejeebus out of me on more than a few occaisions when messing with vintage dishwashers... | ||
| Post# 1047278 , Reply# 13 10/9/2019 at 14:33 (1,659 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
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HI PAUL | ||
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Post# 1047281 , Reply# 14 10/9/2019 at 14:53 (1,659 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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Post# 1047283 , Reply# 15 10/9/2019 at 15:21 (1,659 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 1047290 , Reply# 16 10/9/2019 at 15:37 (1,659 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
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I'D MUCH RATHER A SUPERBA.... | ||
| Post# 1047385 , Reply# 17 10/10/2019 at 17:11 (1,658 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
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THANKS FOR THE ADVICE GUYS....
I just picked up a KDP-18, in CT, 2 hours north if me. Had to strike while the iron is hot. I'll get it installed over the next day or two.
I'll tinker with the Hotpoint down the road, just to satisfy my curiosity. If it ends up working, I can use it in the "summer" kitchen. Here is a pic of the KitchenAid. Wish me luck/ Lol. Thanks again 👍😁 Louis
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| Post# 1047387 , Reply# 18 10/10/2019 at 17:33 (1,658 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod) | ||
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| Post# 1047392 , Reply# 19 10/10/2019 at 19:29 (1,658 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c ) | ||
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You wont believe How well this will wash and dry Absolutely leagues ahead of ANY dishwasher made today.And it will do it in a third the time of a new Miele | ||
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Post# 1047394 , Reply# 20 10/10/2019 at 19:35 (1,658 days old) by brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia) |
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Hi Hans, A full cycle in only 20 Mins? Wow thats fast. The current generation of Mieles when connected to Hot water, can run an Automatic program in 60 mins, including a dry component. Its not just for light soil, it handles heavy soil as well, by increasing the amount of water used and the temp. Regards Nathan | ||
| Post# 1047790 , Reply# 21 10/15/2019 at 15:57 (1,653 days old) by newvista58 (Northern NJ) | ||
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THANKS GUYS. FOR CONFIRMING.......
that this machine was a good purchase. I jumped on it so fast, for
fear it would sell, and I wouldn't find one right away. I repainted the front panels the next day. Now it fits right in with the rest of the kitchen. When I get around to diagnosing the Hotpoint, I will let you know what happened to it. Best washes, Louis | ||
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Post# 1047791 , Reply# 22 10/15/2019 at 16:03 (1,653 days old) by peteski50 (New York) |
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KitchenAid!
Louis Best of Luck with the Patrician its a nice machine - I found this brochure
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