Thread Number: 80949  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Ideas why Miele W1 might be tripping waterproof error?
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Post# 1049509   10/31/2019 at 00:20 by SGT10 (California )        

My W1 gave a “call for service/waterproof system” error last week. Miele Tech came to service, and noticed that I had a few suds errors in the past. He speculated that suds overflowed and caused the water sensor float to trigger shutting down the machine. In the end, by the time he came for service (1 week after the waterproof system error), the machine started up again (he thought water in the bottom drip pan dried out, so the float no longer shut off the machine.

I typically use very low detergent (Twindos 1 is set to 18 ml, Twindos 2 is set to 14 ml, and this despite my very hard water ). When I add detergent manually, I use one tablespoon max. It’s true that I wash rags in the machine from time to time, and I bet the soap and chemicals in these rags are what might have triggered past suds errors.

Long story short, the tech left without doing anything besides telling me to not use so much soap.

Well, less than one week later, the machine has again shut down with the same error code. I have kept a very close eye on it, and there was no oversudsing at all during this time period. Same error code: call for service/ water proof error.

This time, I put a fan in front of the machine, and about 12 hours later I was able to get it to work again, when in the second load (using virtually no detergent), it stopped and with wild incessant beeping announced yet another call for service / waterproof system error.

I did call for service, and the tech on the phone said he couldn’t imagine what was going wrong (again questioning my detergent practices). He absolutely ruled out a faulty sensor (“impossible”).

He is going to send the same tech out again, but I am concerned without any further direction or ideas, the machine will have dried out, and it will start, and we will get nowhere.


Post# 1049517 , Reply# 1   10/31/2019 at 03:42 by henene4 (Germany)        

Actually never seen a faulty float switch.
It is literally just a piece of styrofoam and a physical switch. Not much to go wrong.

Anything you did in connection with the errors?
Cleaning the drain filters can cause such an error if you aren't carefull and spill to much water into the cabinet.

Otherwise these systems usually really just trip when something goes wrong.
And slow leaks are pretty easy to spot as well.



One trick (though somewhat harsh on the technician so he can't just leave): Like 2 - 3 hours before he arrives, turn on the machine and check if the error persists.
If not, just run rinse cycles with no spin until it does appear again.


Post# 1049522 , Reply# 2   10/31/2019 at 04:24 by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

The only time I’ve tripped the switch was on a W3933 that had failed bearings. On a really sudsy load, it’d leak and then stop till it dried out.

The only other thing could be an oversuds, but if there is water in the sump there is probably a leak.


Post# 1049535 , Reply# 3   10/31/2019 at 08:40 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture
The sensor could be bad [ float & Switch ] I have seen far simpler devices fail.

Or Bypass the stupid flood sensor system or get a real FL washer like a SQ that is not so finicky if you really need to do laundry.

John L.


Post# 1049543 , Reply# 4   10/31/2019 at 10:47 by Sgt10 (California )        

Henene4- you asked "Anything you did in connection with the errors?
Cleaning the drain filters can cause such an error if you aren't carefull and spill to much water into the cabinet"

Although I have cleaned the filters in the past, it's probably been a couple of months, so no, I can't really figure out anything unusual that I have done. And I have't been washing soap filled rags, nor have I added too much detergent. In fact, on one of the two wash loads I was able to do before the error shutdown everything again, I discovered the TwinDos container was empty and the wash load ran without any detergent (I checked level after noticing laundry wasn't smelling as fresh as it should post wash). The Miele techs (both on the phone and on site) seem stuck on focusing on detergent.

The machine is 11 months old, during which time I have certainly made full use of it on lots of different cycles. So having the bearings go out would seem too soon, but I suppose possible, although I haven't seen any other sign of that.

It's currently in error mode (didn't dry out even with an overnight fan), but I definitely want it that way for the techs's visit tomorrow so he can't walk away with another admonition about detergent.


Post# 1049549 , Reply# 5   10/31/2019 at 11:33 by henene4 (Germany)        

Yeah, there is a tiny little gap between the cabinet and the face plate of the pump housings.

If you open the filters to quickly or don't have that flap down completly or heck just plain up are unlucky, water can drip along the pump face plate and into the drip pan.
And as there should be never any water in the cabinet bottom, the switch is designed to activate pretty early to catch leaks as soon as possible.

One of the actual service tech advices across all brands over here is that if your washer gives you a water protection error code and you recently did anything like cleaning the pump filter you should tilt the washer forward about 45 degrees so that any water in the bottom pan can run out.
Then try again.

If you just managed to get water in your machine by accident you saved yourself a lot of headache.
Otherwise service is necessary.




And honestly, combo, which simpler device then a switch?

These WaterProof systems have probably saved billions in water damages over here.
If you install a machine without a protective hose (be it DW or washer) in a rental most insurances will not cover damages if they are caused by these appliances.

If a washer is leaking (which this one most definetly is) I'd rather have it stop by itself.
I'd take this possibility of a 1 in 100000 chance of a false allert (which btw again I never once heared of - in a country that has such systems on most machines from the upper BOL range on) over a flooded house or flat.


Post# 1049558 , Reply# 6   10/31/2019 at 13:33 by Aquarius1984 (Planet earth)        
Attitude issues

aquarius1984's profile picture
Ok Combo52 we hear you. You don’t like the European way of doing anything. Make a thread, tell us all and then we can be done with it.

We can pick fault with most American ways, especially your washers. By euro standards it appears you’ve never had a properly automatic washer or dishwasher in America until euro machines were imported. It’s clear you’ve only ever had automatic rinsing machines given the amount of baby sitting, stain treating, pre washing, soaking and other mollycoddling required by use of laundry additives and stain removers.

Real washing machines, real dishwashers. LOL.

Back on topic, OP is it possible that the water is coming from a leaky internal hose or cracked soap dispenser housing/ cavity? Another member here found this to be the case with his.




Post# 1049567 , Reply# 7   10/31/2019 at 17:06 by SGT10 (California )        

Thank you, I will ask about leaky internal hose possibility and take another look at the soap dispenser.

Henene4 - when you say slow leaks are easy to spot, do you mean to say that I would observe some water in the floor or elsewhere, or do you have something else in mind?

Does anyone think it’s possible that if the outgoing drain hose was impeded/met too much resistance by a blockage somewhere in my house drain system, it could back up the water in the machine and show up as a leak? I have very little idea of how these things might work, so am trying to explore all possibilities.

The first time the Miele tech person came to “repair” the machine, I believe that Miele Technical Services (who I called to arrange the appointment) sent him some spare parts to install, hoses I think (their standard response to the Waterproof error). He did not install any new parts and instead had a discussion with me about detergent levels. (Followed by a discussion of how most Americans did not know how to use their machines properly, and could only use one cycle, followed by his announcement that in the future Miele would be simplifying North American machines since we apparently rely solely on the Normal setting, followed by his recommendation to use the table linens/curtains setting for my bed sheets). It was a lot to take in for one service call.


Post# 1049569 , Reply# 8   10/31/2019 at 18:15 by Combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Water leak detection systems

combo52's profile picture
In dishwashers and automatic washers.

These things go off constantly when there’s no real leak it’s the most common service call on Bosch dishwashers and Fisher Paycal dish drawers in this country by a long shot.

Very seldom is there any serious leak just a little bit of water under the machine which would never have caused a problem with the dishwasher or damage to the home compared to a dishwasher that did not have the system.

Washing machines and dishwashers very seldom call series floods in a home And Our home should be built properly to contain and control leakage.

There is no possibilityThat billions of dollars of damage has been saved by These troublesome and expensive system’s. .


You guys should get out in the real world and actually work on appliances and see what goes wrong with them.

John


Post# 1049599 , Reply# 9   11/1/2019 at 04:20 by henene4 (Germany)        
@SGT10

As I said, the inside of these machines should never see any water.

They'll get slightly dusty over time, not much more.

Any water running down any hose or surface will leave a trail and once dried, you'll see a pretty obvious white residue along that trail which you can just follow to the leakage area.



No, the drain backing up would not cause a leak inside the cabinet itself. Just a slow drain error.

My best guess is just some pinhole or loose hose clamp.







An combo52:

Yeah you no why there is little water in that machine?
CAUSE IT $%^&*( STOPPED DOING WHATEVER ASAP.

You are a technician. You should have that much of a grasp that you understand why these systems don't let a huge leak happen.
That is literally their only purpose.

And do you know how expensive water damage can get if you live in let's say a five floor appartment builduing and you live on the second floor?
Water gets through the walls and ceilings with a slow leak over a year or two, weakens structural elements, soaks structural walls, etc.

The only time someone finally notices is as their walls in the first floor get wet.

Now they start tearing open their walls, then the walls of the floor you live on, then they find the cause is you DW all along.

Thing is it's to late, all the walls are no longer deamed sound from a structural perspective and EVERYBODY in that house has to move out immediatley.

Damages for that kind of situation start in the millions. That's 1000 of such admittedly rare cases over the 30+ years these systems exist.

Even if it would he "just" a "We have to redo all your kitchen flooring plus dry pout the ceiling from the person below you and redo that" you look at damages in the xxk thousands of what ever money we are talking about.



And these systems are ecpensive??? NO?

They are literally 1 switch and maybe (more often then not not even) 1 extra valve.
Plus a piece of styrofoam and a few caboes plus a plastic hoising for the hose.
Actually, on the Bosches you so despise apparently (for what ever reason, really) it not even is an extra valve (the hose valve is the main machine valve) AND it saved the level switch for wash chamber.

On Bosches - as you know - the overflow from the wash tank can go into sump area which means obersudsing can cause these to trigger.
Easy to diagnose that over the phone actually or at least narrow that down.


And OMG could you finally stop claiming that EVERYTHING is the most common issue on the Bosch DW.
Like, with every product you don't like.

Geeze, besides my mum you are the only true boomer I have ever had to deal with for a longer period of time.

I'm somewhat happy you only serve one city over there.

Learn about technology first, then try to blame it on it.


Post# 1049611 , Reply# 10   11/1/2019 at 09:47 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        
Diagnosed by Laptop Software

Miele provides diagnostic programs on the Laptop the technician should have had. The Laptop connects to the front panel of the machine via an optical interface found on the spot just above and to the right of the word TwinDos on the display panel and the software is able to read out all of the information saved in the Electronic module of the machine. The Module records all information about the components of the machine and the tech can even have the machine running and watch how the components are performing in realtime.

On my previous Miele washer, the cold water intake flow had slowed down. My neighbors had experienced similar issues with their other brands of washers and we figure it has something to do with our hard water that seems to make fill valves malfunction after several years. Knowing this, when I called for service I mentioned the problem might be the fill valve. When the technician arrived he connected the laptop to the machine and began scrolling through the information. When he came to the water intake fault he clicked on it. This took him to a picture of the inside of the machine showing the part that caused the fault outlined in red. He replaced the cold water fill valve.

I would call Miele customer service and request that the machine be diagnosed using the laptop software Miele provides to its registered technicians, instead of having the tech standing there trying to guess what is wrong. I think the tech should have done this in the first place.

On the below picture if you look to the upper right side of the black display panel above the word TwinDos you will see a clear circle. This is the area that the laptop will use to connect to the machine.


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Post# 1049619 , Reply# 11   11/1/2019 at 10:52 by SGT10 (California )        

Jerrod- yes, I believe that is ALL the tech did. He hooked up his laptop and read off all of the error codes in the 11 month life of the machine. He found F10, F15,f16,F69, F104, F138. I think the water intake error came during initial install (or a day later). Some of the error codes must relate to extra suds when I washed the detergent laden rags. Not sure about the others. He delivered his speech about detergent, and then left.

What he did not do is open up the machine, or install any of the replacement parts that Miele sent him. I guess he thought they were incorrect or not necessary. He is coming back today. The machine is still in error mode, so maybe he will take further action this time.




Post# 1049620 , Reply# 12   11/1/2019 at 10:56 by SGT10 (California )        

Jerrod- also, that’s a good tip about the fill valves. My water is extremely hard here, so perhaps that has some impact on the internals (although admittedly the previous w4840 did not have a problem - although it did have other problems that led to its ultimate demise).

Post# 1049621 , Reply# 13   11/1/2019 at 10:58 by SGT10 (California )        

Henene4- thank you. it sounds like I should try my best to get the tech to open the machine and take a look, which he did not do last time.

Post# 1049642 , Reply# 14   11/1/2019 at 16:53 by henene4 (Germany)        
Looking up on Google

So, F10 is a water intake error.

F15 is the warm water intake error.

F16 is the oversuds error triggered when the main wash is already sensed as oversudsed (turns of heater, more rinses, etc.).

F69 is a faulty recirculation pump.

F104 is a motor issue related to undervoltage.

F138 is the WaterProof float switch error.



My best guess is that F10+F15 are install related fault codes, F16-F104 are related to some REALLY heavy over suds codition.

F138 is your leakage issue.


Post# 1049651 , Reply# 15   11/1/2019 at 19:42 by SGT10 (California )        

Thank you!

I will have to wait to find out more as Miele Tech canceled on me today (very frustrating after staying home waiting).

Do you think I should be concerned about the recirc pump error?


Post# 1049667 , Reply# 16   11/2/2019 at 02:30 by henene4 (Germany)        

Not really. Happens on occasion.

Post# 1049672 , Reply# 17   11/2/2019 at 06:17 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Welcome To Wonderful World Of Miele Appliance Ownership.

launderess's profile picture
Welcome to the club, I like to call it "good morning heartache, sit down..".

Without meaning to give offence, MieleUSA at times seems to embody the worse traits of German stubbornness.

You call customer service/tech support reporting an issue. After describing the problem you get "no, that cannot be happening, the machine/appliance does not do that".

Should you insist that issue is indeed occurring Miele's next response will be "what you done to the machine/appliance?". When pushed further " you must have used too much detergent" or "you don't know how to operate the washer...", "you used incorrect product....".

When all is said and done an appointment for a call out is made. This will likely be one, two, three or more weeks off. Meanwhile you may or may not have use of said appliance.

On appointed day tech arrives and there are several outcomes.

He examines appliance and lo/behold it *IS* doing what was reported, but tech cannot pin point why.

Or, appliance is doing what was reported but tech cannot do repair atm due to lack of parts, time or whatever.

Or, appliance isn't acting up at that moment, and you cannot duplicate the problem for tech to see.

In any event you now have to pay out for service call.

If machine needs repair *and* tech can do the work another future date will be booked. Again this can be one week, two, three.... Heaven help you if tech doesn't have parts needed in his stash. That means parts will have to be ordered from New Jersey if in stock. If they aren't you'll have to wait for next shipment from Europe. Again either way you may be without use of appliance for another week, two, etc... until part or parts arrive, *and* tech can once again book you in.

MieleUSA's weakness has always been lack of a serious nationwide tech/repair service fleet. If one lives in NYC/NJ/PA or Conn area (all close to Princeton, NJ), then things may be slightly better. But further away one goes pickings can be slim.

IIRC a member from MA had a service call from a Miele tech who drove all the way up from NJ.


Post# 1049678 , Reply# 18   11/2/2019 at 08:32 by Rolls_rapide (0)        
The Miele leak...

I was wondering, based on what I once read (possibly on here, yonks ago), that a certain model or series of Miele had a 'dispenser-to-tub hose' which was problematic. Basically, it rubbed a hole in itself, due to tub movement.

The service pack solution was to install the new hose, but also to cut off/file away a plastic hook or nub, which was supposed to keep the hose captive, but ultimately caused the problem in the first place.


And that sounds typical of the state of service departments these days - blame the customer and do as little as possible.


Post# 1050118 , Reply# 19   11/6/2019 at 20:56 by SGT10 (California )        
Diagnosis from Miele tech so far

Laundress- you have pretty accurately described my experience. After canceling on me last week (for waterproof system problems that started on Oct 18, resulting in a tech visit one week later and an admonition to stop using so much soap), I had my second tech visit today. This time (different tech) opened the machine (after first telling me it was most likely too much detergent, but then when he hooked up his computer he found 34 new waterproof system errors but zero oversudsing errors, he finally conceded there MIGHT be a leak. After about an hour and a half of hunting, he found lots of water in the machine’s drip pan, but no obvious leak anywhere.

A call to his supervisor produced the suggestion to take the top off, put the front of the machine back on, and examine the area of the detergent dispenser while doing a standard (not a test cycle).

During the first 6 seconds or so of a cycle, water runs down the glass front of the machine, I guess to tell the user “hey, I’m on, and using water.” Then the water path switches to actually send water to flush out the dispenser and move the detergent to the tub.

He found water dripping from the top during that first 6 seconds of the cycle. Not when the water switched to the dispenser, just when running over the glass door. It was the “show off phase” that created the problems. Probably a bad seal from the very start of the machine’s life, but because so little water dripping each time, it took a while to accumulate in the drip pan and set off the water sensor.

Their proposed solution (and OF COURSE they did not have the part with them: replace the water path control unit. When? Who knows. It just depends.

So it’s been three weeks now of no washer and taking laundry elsewhere to wash.

I was thinking wistfully of my Maytag Neptune front loader (pre-whirlpool ) which I gave to a friend but is still operating without a hitch 16 years after I bought it.


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Post# 1050131 , Reply# 20   11/7/2019 at 00:49 by SGT10 (California )        

By the way, I am not completely convinced with Miele’s explanation. Is it reasonable that 10 drops or so of leaking per laundry cycle can really fill up the drain pan enough over time to trip the water sensor? I live in a desert/dry environment.

I did get to see the dripping in action. It lasted 6 seconds before the water diverted and the dripping stopped.


Post# 1050133 , Reply# 21   11/7/2019 at 02:56 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
How old is this washer anyway?

launderess's profile picture
If relatively new and under warranty (or maybe not),I'd go up the food chain and get a new washer from Miele. That or you shouldn't be charged for call out or repair.

Tell Miele you're fed up and stress this is a new washer which shouldn't be having these sort of issues.

Don't be fobbed off to or by a minor functionary. Let them know you mean business.


Post# 1050135 , Reply# 22   11/7/2019 at 03:36 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
The residue in the drip pan doesn`t look like plain water to me.
Do you have iron or anything else yellowing in your water supply?
Would be interesting to know if there is a slippery feel to this residue which would suggest detergent residue and maybe an additional leak as you suspect.

I have a much older Miele model and occasionally it happens that I misjudge the degree of soiling and then end up with a lit up oversuds light. But in all those years I`ve had the washer there wasn`t a single waterproof error.
Have to say the light only did come on when several attempts to spin failed and an extra rinse was added. However I`ve never had an oversuds situation so bad that suds would pour out of the detergent dispenser and then possibly find their way over the pump housing into the drip pan.

You mention a few seconds of a show off phase at the beginning of the wash cycle. I was wondering if the newer Mieles don`t fill in the rinse cycles the same way anymore. Mine does and of course it takes much longer than 10 seconds. The purpose is to keep the door glass and boot free of detergent residue.
The reason for doing this at the start of a cycle could be to avoid detergent loss, but this doesn`t make sense because there is a valve in the suds container which is always closed unless the pump runs. I believe I have read somewhere this is done to avoid the squeaking sound that dry clothes can make on the door glass at the start of a cycle when loaded to full capacity.


Post# 1050143 , Reply# 23   11/7/2019 at 06:52 by Paulc (Edinburgh, Scotland)        
The same thing happened with my W1

paulc's profile picture
My W1 started showing the waterproof error when it was less than a year old. It would reset itself after a couple of days but I’d only be able to get a load and a half done before the fault showed again and the machine would abort the cycle. It wasn’t until the second engineer visit that he discovered the dispenser housing was warped and there was a very small crack in it, causing a slow leak into the machine. The housing was replaced and no more waterproof errors have occurred.

Post# 1050153 , Reply# 24   11/7/2019 at 10:08 by SGT10 (California )        

The machine is 11 months old and under warranty. I have not been charged for the visits or the upcoming repair. Of course, the flip side is that I have had a sporadically working washer for the past 3 plus weeks, I have been taking laundry to another location, strategically plotting how often I can change sheets, etc., and have now completely rearranged my schedule and taken time off work on 3 separate days (one of which they didn’t show up) for the repair visits. And I will have to do the same another time when they receive the part and come back to install. I have been on the phone numerous times with Miele in NJ, I have had to argue with schedulers for appointments, and I have had to accept laundry humiliation from Miele techs telling me I didn’t know how to do laundry (just like other American users).

Would I be better off arguing for a new machine? Perhaps. I’m not sure I have the energy left because it surely won’t be easy. One thing I did consider briefly was receiving credits towards purchase a Little Giant (credit meaning they credit me the full price of the W1). But I would have to argue that, too. And then I would have to organize an electrician. There is an old electric dryer outlet that could potentially be used (my existing Miele dryer is gas, so I don’t need the outlet), but I would have to make sure it still works as it probably predates our house purchase and remodel. In any case, that strategy sort of feels like doubling down. Miele washers and dryers do seem like an awfully lot of trouble. But maybe every washer these days with similar washing performance (are there any machines that wash as well?) are a lot of trouble.

I had a long fight with Miele when I first purchased the machine because it doesn’t function as described in the manual (I can’t use the front panel controls to select both a prewash and an extra rinse at the same time (same cycle). There is a way to do it using the Miele WiFi app on one’s phone, but I didn’t want to go down that path). I might as well have been talking to a block of wood. Extremely stubborn and unresponsive, to say the least, so I am not eager to start another confrontation.

Mrboilwash- I should have checked the water before they vacuumed it up, but it did not occur to me. I can tell you that my water is extremely hard, so I’m wondering if some of the minerals precipitated out.


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Post# 1050278 , Reply# 25   11/8/2019 at 10:16 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

This is a brand new machine that has had a leak probably from the beginning. I would ask for a new one.

I had one of the larger Miele T98XX gas dryers years ago and it kept having the same problem for over 2 years and every time the tech came out he was unable to find anything wrong. After the third time with this same problem, I called Miele and started whining loudly. After 1 minute of this, they decided to give me a brand new machine. By this time the new models were out and that is what they gave me at no cost. Also, mention that you have been without a machine for 3 weeks.

It's worth a try.



Post# 1050350 , Reply# 26   11/8/2019 at 19:11 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
An Overly Completed Way To Get Laundry Done

combo52's profile picture

The brown stain is rust from the steel bottom panel, If the machine had not had this silly system you would have seen this leak long ago and gotten the machine fixed, in any case there would have been no interruption of your laundry.

 

On a SQ FL the whole lower panel is removable with just two exposed screws and you can see what is going on easily.

 

Miele machines are VERY GOOD well designed and BUILT washers, But they are complex and expensive to service and to troublesome if you Really need to do a lot of laundry and only have one machine.

 

I like to compare them to owning a Mercedes Benz in the United States, the only difference is Miele service is also very expensive and there is almost no after market service for Miele appliances unlike owning a MB. where there are lots of shops that will fix an older MB.

 

Every week when I look over the appliance discard pile at the largest independent appliance seller in the DC area I see Miele washers and dryers and lots of Miele  DWs that people have given up on the still look great. We have picked up a number of them over the years and had fun fixing them and learning about them, we end up giving them away to appliance friends as I would never sell one to a customer.

 

Any used appliance we sell to a customer we expect it to have a serviceable life of at least 10 years, hopefully without big expensive problems.

 

 Experience from an appliance Boomer , LOL

 

John L.


Post# 1050382 , Reply# 27   11/9/2019 at 06:25 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Rust from the steel panel... Of course. I could have thought of that myself, but sometimes the most logical explanation just doesn`t occur to me. It looked like rotten detergent residue to me but couldn`t explain the color.

Still wouldn`t say the system is silly. Too many Europeans living in a multistory building in the past have had the pleasure to discover their apartment doors broken up by the fire department because of a serious water damage on several floors below. This silly system can do so much more for you than just hiding a minor leak. Just think of a burst fill hose. Not much fun at all.

But then again there is a reason why appliances are designed for the needs and expectations of the market they are intended to be sold.
As I understand it most American multilevel buildings rule out private washers anyways, so there`s little need for a complicated water leaking protection system.


Post# 1050518 , Reply# 28   11/10/2019 at 12:08 by bewitched (Italy)        

it can’t be rust. the rust is not yellow and the steel pan doesn’t catch rust in ages of leakings let alone on a new machine. i saw many miele machines years old with evident traces of leakings but no one had rust.

Post# 1050556 , Reply# 29   11/10/2019 at 16:42 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

I wonder if it is some kind of Lubricant that was used in the manufacturing process. Under normal conditions, the parts would not come in contact with water.

I was thinking about this amount of water in the bottom and realized that the spray over the glass technique is not just used at the beginning of the wash. Some of the rinses do the entire fill using the glass spray. I think it is done to rinse away any suds that may be on the glass. I know that the last rinse takes two 10 second shots of water through the fabric softener dispenser and then the rest of the water enters the drum using the spray over the glass method.


Post# 1050588 , Reply# 30   11/10/2019 at 20:29 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Brown-Yellow Stain

combo52's profile picture

Thats Rust, this type of galvanized steel will rust in just a few weeks if it keeps getting wet, seen it many times.

 

John L.


Post# 1050634 , Reply# 31   11/11/2019 at 07:02 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Come to think of it if it was grey water mixed with detergent and soil from the clothes the stench would probably be unbearable in no time at all.

Post# 1051005 , Reply# 32   11/14/2019 at 11:51 by SGT10 (California )        
Update on leaking washer

It’s been over a week since Miele service visit where they discovered the leak. To date, they have not contacted me to set up a new service appointment to replace the part they claim is the problem.

Meanwhile, I have written to their quality assurance group outlining the problem and requesting a new machine. No answer yet, so this morning I contacted technical services again. A supervisor informed me that the part was backordered but arrived yesterday, and he could schedule another service visit to install it.

I told him (and in the end the discussion was rather heated) that I had heard the same story since October 18 and it was now November 14. Nirvana, according to Miele, is always just one service visit away. My machine is in error mode and not working. I told him I wanted a new machine, and for an 11 month machine to spend 1 month out of service was unacceptable. If I was sure that this proposed fix would work, perhaps my response would have been different. But I am far from convinced.

And there things sit.


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Post# 1051066 , Reply# 33   11/14/2019 at 22:35 by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

This thread outlines exactly why you shouldn’t buy low volume high end appliances. As a technician I can tell you this about your fancy designer washer

1. My service rate just doubled
2. You are waiting a month for the part
3. If you are out of warranty the first repair will be 75% of your purchase price.
4. You have basically no choice as I’m the only person willing to fix your odd appliance.

I hope you do get this resolved soon.


Post# 1051070 , Reply# 34   11/14/2019 at 23:50 by SGT10 (California )        

Do you have an opinion about the best front loader that’s not a “fancy, designer appliance ?” By best, I mean best at gently cleaning my clothes. I am not interested in the water and power conservation features. I want to be able to safely wash everyday towels and sheets, as well as delicates, wool and silk. When I moved to my first front loader, away from a top loader with agitator, I liked how much cleaner my clothes were getting and how gentle the machine was on clothing. That was a Maytag Neptune 7500, and of course, not an option anymore.

Post# 1051138 , Reply# 35   11/15/2019 at 13:29 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Best FL washer

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Everyone here knows what I think the best longest lived and essayist to service FL washer is.

A Speed Queen FL washer is proven to outlast 2 or 3 of any other FL washer available for home use.

If a SQ FLer does not meet your needs I would buy TWO WP-MT or even TWO LG FL washers with two good average machines you should be able to keep your laundry moving.

John L.


Post# 1051153 , Reply# 36   11/15/2019 at 15:28 by SGT10 (California )        
Update on Miele negotiation

I guess I won’t be in the market for a new washing machine after all. Miele has agreed to replace the machine with a new machine. Timing to be determined.

Post# 1051161 , Reply# 37   11/15/2019 at 17:53 by combo52 (Beltsville,Md)        
Best FL washer

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This is good news, but also tells how difficult it is to fix this high-end stuff if the manufacturer can't even diagnose and fix their own products in a timely manor, hopefully you will have better luck with a another one.

One thing for sure Miele can well afford to replace failed machines when you consider how over priced they are.

John L.


Post# 1051164 , Reply# 38   11/15/2019 at 19:12 by SGT10 (California )        

Yes, I do feel like kind of a chump sometimes for doubling down on Miele.

Post# 1051165 , Reply# 39   11/15/2019 at 19:19 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Told you so!

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Good for you!

As along veteran of battles with Miele sometimes one simply must take a very firm line indeed.

There is no reason other than poor build quality for a basically new machine to have issues like your's. Even worse is Miele's high handed response, which again sadly is often too common.

After paying nearly $2k for a washing machine, to be without for nearly a month and counting is just unacceptable. Worse you never know what else will happen down the line.... No best to cut losses and start with a new machine. Let Miele palm that defective washer off on someone else.


Post# 1051167 , Reply# 40   11/15/2019 at 19:30 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Miele has repair person issues

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Which have been going on for some time now. Like others they cannot find enough qualified applicants willing to go though training/apprenticeship required.

Miele USA tried teaming up with third party services like Mr. Appliance or something, with results often being less than satisfactory.

Worse many of the older techs have either retired or left the company. Some became senior in house techs or other similar positions,but they too are reaching retirement age and or leaving.

In any case with these people go a wealth of knowledge built up over years. The new machines are more electronically complicated but quite honestly don't have build quality of old.

After spending a few thousand on an appliance, only to have it go out of order, then have to battle with Miele to get it fixed, then wait two, three, four or more weeks is why the company has issues expanding in USA.



Post# 1051180 , Reply# 41   11/15/2019 at 21:22 by Sgt10 (California )        

It was interesting to hear Miele's quality assurance person struggle to find a capable installer for the new machine. They dismantled their "Miele Concierge" install team (the ones who installed it 11 months ago). And now they have their repair teams but no installation. Since I had experienced difficulty on the initial install, I asked him not send the "B" or "C" team to do the install. But in reality, I don't think they have any team to send.

I agree with the point of seemingly few capable techs on the repair side. But really, why should the machine require any repairs after 11 months?

Could one make an argument that Miele has gone from the best build quality to one of the worst? Or perhaps LG, Samsung, WP and others do break at 11 months, we just don't hear about it.


Post# 1051187 , Reply# 42   11/15/2019 at 22:04 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
There are lots of jobs that need doing

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But not nearly enough want to do them......

Appliance repair belongs to one of many trades that young people for years have been shunning. It is one thing to be an independent repairman (or woman), but working for Miele, Kenmore or who ever is another matter.

IIRC Miele techs are on the clock; they are allotted only certain amount of time based upon what was booked, then they have to move on to keep schedule. Not everyone has the temperament and people skills to do home repair work. Quite frankly over years have spoken with and had in our home some people I'd like to have whacked with a mallet.

Big issue these days is less and less in terms of appliances are meant to be repaired. Sadly this seems to be affecting Miele.

Any new appliance can have a run of bad luck. Indeed most consumer groups are unanimous in saying that if something is to go wrong with a new appliance, it will happen in about 18 months or so. This is why they warn people off extended warranties.

As have said Miele can be rather stubborn when it comes to dealing with repair issues. Their first line response always seems to be "no, the machine cannot be doing that". If you insist that is indeed what is happening then response is "what did *YOU* do to the machine?". If it is a washing machine MieleUSA's pat response is "you must have used too much or the wrong detergent...".

For reasons of their own Miele assumes all Americans are ignorant oafs or silly housewives that haven't a clue how to operate their precious bits of German engineering. Which makes you wonder why they even bother selling them in USA at all.

Once leak was discovered coming from a place it shouldn't, that was time to offer a replacement. That the tech couldn't trace cause of leak on his own, requiring assistance from supervisor over telephone was another clue. This sort of thing isn't supposed to happen and that is obvious as no one at Miele had a clue.

Their response was to replace water path control, and hope that was cause of leak. Maybe it would cure the issue, then again maybe not. If the latter what happens next? Another month or so without an operable washing machine? Or one that barely completes a week or so of use before that dreaded anti-flooding system is again activated.

Fact that Miele still only offers a one year warranty on such expensive washers and dryers is worrying. Even SQ and LG do better IIRC.


Post# 1051223 , Reply# 43   11/16/2019 at 08:23 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Miele warranty

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When registering my W1 washer I was told that it had a free 5 year warranty and they have sent me a certificate that proves it so I have with a little luck nothing to worry about until 2024

We will see :)


Post# 1051228 , Reply# 44   11/16/2019 at 08:41 by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        
@sgt10

I really like LG front loaders, more so the ones with turbo wash. My experience with LG is that they typically go 7 years before their first repair, which is almost always a water pump. I always sell my customers the water pump, hall sensor, and motor wire harness, along with a single outlet surge suppressor. That will all but guarantee another 7 years.



Post# 1051236 , Reply# 45   11/16/2019 at 09:59 by SGT10 (California )        
The end of vocational education

Yes, I would say we have paid a price for ending vocational education in our schools (largely for budgetary reasons I think, but who knows what else is behind it). So there are very few qualified repair people coming on line. It seems a pity as trades are genuinely needed, and why can’t we train people here? It’s clear that college doesn’t suit everyone.

With respect to Miele, I don’t know what type of training Miele gives their repair people, but it doesn’t seem up to the task. Although I have had to get Miele machines repaired in the past, this is the first time where my machine has been out for over a month. Even if I accepted their proposed repair, they told me they couldn’t get back to install the part until November 26 (my machine initially went down October 18).

I personally don’t have room to have a “back up” machine. So even though I like Miele’s wash performance, my experience with the W1 has certainly proved expensive for me (although I know many other W1 owners are very pleased and haven’t had theirs break).

I’m not even sure Miele cares about selling to North America. They certainly don’t behave as if they do.


Post# 1051288 , Reply# 46   11/16/2019 at 20:03 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Ending (Largely) Vocational Education

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In many if not most school systems across USA had nothing to do with budget concerns.

No, it was rather pushed by liberal progressive democrats who believed such education was some how unfair and consigned certain students to a lower track education with a second tier life (blue collar).

Goal was to push every high school student into college bound academics so they would go onto higher education after graduation. This was part and parcel of huge push of all American high school grads going onto college, this regardless if they were prepared academically or mentally.

People based their efforts on declining manufacturing in USA that took hold by the 1970's and 1980's. They simply felt *all* high school graduates (this includes minorities, young women, etc...) should have the benefit of higher education which in turn would open doors.


Germany of course has a strong vocational/apprenticeship scheme, and their manufacturing base is envy of world. Yes, there is "tracking", but overall system is far less cruel than stringing some "C -" high school student along into college. There he or she after attending and basically seat warming for four years graduates with same low GPA, *and* now often thousands in debt thanks to student loans.


Post# 1051300 , Reply# 47   11/16/2019 at 23:13 by SGT10 (California )        
College for all and the end of vocational training

Very well put. While I think that the push towards college for all independent of ability, preparation, or proclivity was an extremely important factor in the death of vocational education (and, as an aside,
has not been good for colleges either) I would add the additional complication that vocational education was/is typically only step one in following a trade. One then often needs an apprenticeship and license/union card. That’s where the need for connections and potential corruption plays a role.

And as a further aside, education tends to open doors only when the students have enough ability and have learned something valued by the market during their college experience. One must choose one’s educational course wisely, as the market may not value, say, an environmental justice degree as fully as ones college would have one believe.


Post# 1053708 , Reply# 48   12/9/2019 at 18:00 by SGT10 (California )        
Final update on leaking Miele w1 - replaced machine

My W1 leak errors started on Oct 18. Today, finally, my new washing machine was installed (Dec 9, so just a little short of two months since the initial problem followed by numerous service visits). Once I negotiated the exchange to a new machine, I opted to double down on Miele (I may kick myself, but I was tired of having a machine that didn’t work), and I paid the extra amount to “upgrade” to the Little Giant, which is supposed to be a more rugged build.

The installers (arranged by Miele) were not familiar with the machine, and were in fact convinced that this machine (like the W1) had the built in TwinDos detergent dispensers. Hopefully they still knew enough to properly install the machine. I was a little worried when they arrived in an open bed pickup truck with my new machine in the back, wrapped in plastic wrap but not boxed, exposed to the elements (I am in Southern California, so this is not as bad as it might have been, still, it has been raining over the past couple of days so I was surprised about the open bed delivery).

I know that many W1 owners have been very pleased with their machines, so my experience has likely been the exception.


Post# 1053797 , Reply# 49   12/10/2019 at 07:47 by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
@SGT10 Your little giant

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Hello I had a little giant washer its absolutely bullet proof, I sold it to a friend who had a pub and it was used to wash all manner of articles they had a SQ top loader as well which sadly was prone to going wrong so the Miele picked up the slack and as far as I know 3 years later is still going. It was connected to a 20amp supply so the 2nd heater was reconnected which made the machine incredibly fast.

I have upgraded to a W1 and so far its been superb, Lets hope that you won't be disappointed with this new one..

I am in the throws of making my mind up and buy the new Miele heat pump dryer its £1300 which is a fair chunk of cash but should be worth it :)



Post# 1053876 , Reply# 50   12/10/2019 at 21:01 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        

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Great to hear you’ve received your replacement. I’ve had a Little Giant for 3 years now. It’s very, very versatile! I’ve you have any questions, I’m happy to answer!

Post# 1054029 , Reply# 51   12/11/2019 at 22:54 by SGT10 (California )        
Little Giant ok with bleach??

The Little Giant seems to be doing fine. One thing I haven’t been able to figure out is the insert in the pre-wash area of the dispenser drawer, which is labeled for prewash detergent or liquid bleach. The manual does not discuss bleach, so I am not sure whether they mean chlorine bleach or hydrogen peroxide. Whichever is the case, does it seem right that bleach would work best in the prewash cycle. Usually a prewash is cold water — wouldn’t bleach work better in hotter water?

Post# 1054034 , Reply# 52   12/12/2019 at 02:21 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
In commercial/industrial settings

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Chlorine bleach is never used in pre-wash, but usually first rinse after final wash cycle (often there can be one, two, or three), then followed by a few more rinses.

Reasons are first and foremost better and clearer chlorine bleaching takes place in cleaner water. Next if chlorine bleach is being used for sanitation it does better work (with less of it), with less organic matter/soil present.

Finally chlorine bleach cycles aren't supposed to be very long. Chlorine bleach does all work it is going to do in five minutes or less after addition. Higher water temps means faster action. This covers stain removal, whitening, brightening and disinfection/sanitation. Marks that aren't removed in five minutes of contact time (even in cold water) and chlorine bleach likely will not be removed with increased contact time. All that does in promote damage to textiles by leaving them in contact with corrosive properties of bleach longer.

This being said IIRC for Miele Little Giants one is not supposed to use chlorine bleach at all. With their powerful heating capability and still able to deliver fast cycles, any good oxygen bleach would give very good results.


Post# 1054095 , Reply# 53   12/12/2019 at 14:17 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

I don't like using chlorine bleach and have not used it in any front loader I have had and still, not my W1 although you can go into the settings and enable the dosing of it. I would check in your user manual for the Little Giant and see if there is anything in the settings to enable it, and explain how you use it. If not, skip using it and just use oxygen bleach if you want to whiten something.

Post# 1054149 , Reply# 54   12/12/2019 at 19:17 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        

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No provision for bleach dispensing in the Little Giant. It’s a true European machine, so not even mentioned in the manual. On the rare occasion I use it, I run what needs bleaching on a quick wash (full dose of bleach/ small amt of neutral detergent) at 30c then follow with a full load on Cottons or cottons Hygiene at a higher temp and a powder with bleach. I like to use Clorox crystals, it makes dispensing easier. I know my process is the reverse of conventional wisdom but I also use the follow up wash to neutralise the chlorine. But quite honestly, you really don’t need chlorine in this machine.


Post# 1054155 , Reply# 55   12/12/2019 at 22:23 by SGT10 (California )        
Agree that chlorine bleach not needed

I was curious because the manual doesn’t mention bleach, but the liquid prewash insert for the detergent drawer has “heavy soil/ bleach” printed on it. I am now assuming that this means hydrogen peroxide, which would then be released into the pre-wash, begging the question of whether, from a washing efficiency perspective, the pre-wash is the ideal time for hydrogen peroxide to be added.

Post# 1054164 , Reply# 56   12/13/2019 at 05:07 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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You could put some plain tap water into the prewash dispenser next time when you`re doing a regular cotton cycle (without prewash) and see if it gets released.
I suppose the water will still be there at the end of the cycle but then again it`s not that uncommon that washers come with different programming patterns for different markets, so who knows...

Directions on German chlorine bleach bottles are usually "add to pre- or mainwash diluted in 1 liter of water". Adding bleach to the prewash is not ideal, but since the use of bleach for laundry purposes is generally considered as a very last resort before throwing clothes away and our washers don`t have room for a dedicated bleach compartment it wouldn`t surprise me if they really meant to use it in the prewash.


Post# 1054179 , Reply# 57   12/13/2019 at 10:47 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

I downloaded the user manual for your machine and it has most of the cotton cycles going from 140F to 86F like the W1, but the Hygiene or sanitize program is at 203F. There is a note in the dispensing section that says not to use additional liquid bleach. They are expecting to get a detergent with bleach already in it which would work great at 203F or even 140F.

Miele powdered detergent for whites contains oxygen bleach as well as Tide with Bleach if you can find that, or Persil Universal or Persil Megaperls for whites.

It looks like a very nice machine.


Post# 1054191 , Reply# 58   12/13/2019 at 15:03 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Generally when European laundry market speaks of bleach they are referring to oxygen/hydrogen peroxide. Across the pond in USA OTOH word nearly universally means chlorine based products.

My AEG Lavamat washers have a compartment for "stain treatment/bleach" but they mean oxygen based products. Idea is to have enzyme based detergent have a go first, then later in cycle oxygen bleach is added so not to harm enzyme activity. There are other bits, but that is general gist.

Outside of perhaps healthcare (and not always even then), chlorine bleach is almost unknown in Europe for laundry purposes. Standard has always been boil washes with oxygen bleach. As washing machine market developed in Europe boiling moved from stove/range top to washers with built in heating ranging from solid fuels to gas and electricity. European housewives and others long recognized the destructive powers of "eau de Javel". As such it was used infrequently or not at all for laundry. Housecleaning is another matter. In France and elsewhere you find chlorine bleach not in laundry section at shops, but with cleaning supplies.

American housewives and others stopped boiling when automatic or semi automatic washing machines came in; but used copious amounts of chlorine bleach to deal with a multitude of laundry day sins.


Post# 1054214 , Reply# 59   12/13/2019 at 17:18 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        

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Heavy soil/ bleach- Mine says that too. My guess is that the part is also used on other models. It’s just a liquid detergent insert for the prewash side. It’s a straight up traditionally functioning, European machine that’s highly customisable in the settings menu. Therefore no provisions for chlorine bleach.

Post# 1054242 , Reply# 60   12/13/2019 at 22:23 by SGT10 (California )        
So it seems this insert should never be used for bleach

It would appear that neither chlorine bleach nor liquid hydrogen peroxide is especially suited for release in the prewash cycle. And chlorine should probably not be used in this machine at any time. It seems that if one wanted to use liquid hydrogen peroxide, there’s not an easy (correct) way to do it with this machine. Perhaps better off using a powdered product if oxygen bleaching is necessary.

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Post# 1054255 , Reply# 61   12/14/2019 at 06:16 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Doesn`t Miele have a customer service number in the US?
I mean this thread gives us more guesswork than answers because the dispenser clearly says bleach. At least they could do some research and call you back.


Post# 1054261 , Reply# 62   12/14/2019 at 09:39 by Logixx (Germany)        

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As far as I know, there is a bleach dispense on/off setting somewhere in the service menu - at least on the previous generation. From what I recall, it's dispensed towards the end of the main wash. Turning the setting off shortened the main wash.

As for the general usage of LCB: Miele does not encourage the use of it. Even their Professional models advice against it unless absolutely needed.


Post# 1054286 , Reply# 63   12/14/2019 at 13:55 by bewitched (Italy)        

Here in Italy peroxid hydrogen is used to desinfect small wounds. the chlorine bleach is sodium hypochlorite. Older machines had a compartment and a specific program for bleaching clothes. the bleach was added before the start of the mainwash. It is not used now as a proper washing machine usually cleans without chlorine and Miele makes no exceptions to this rule. Speaking about the leak problem, the dispenser is not made integrated to the washer. During production a piece can be defective. This certainly doesn’t mean the machine is not poorly made. I read many SQ complaints on new machines not to mention LG and Samsung that have only the advantage of being cheap and in some cases over engineered. Also Mercedes, Bmw and Volskswagen can have problems with a defective parts in their cars that show up when new. My opinion is Miele personnel in your country is not correctly trained and has few experience with sophisticated appliances.

Post# 1054288 , Reply# 64   12/14/2019 at 14:21 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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I remember a toploader (a Bosch?) that had a designated dispenser for chlorine bleach. It was marked by a chlorine symbol.




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Post# 1054293 , Reply# 65   12/14/2019 at 16:15 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Actually there used to be quite a lot of washers that had chlorine bleach dispensers additionally to boil wash cycles in Europe.
A very short wash time like only ten minutes after the target temperature has been reached was not that uncommon back then in Italian and French washers so washing at 95°C may not always have been enough for proper stain removal and whitening.

There has been Thomson (see in picture #8)


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK


Post# 1054294 , Reply# 66   12/14/2019 at 16:16 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Post# 1054295 , Reply# 67   12/14/2019 at 16:20 by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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And Candy (#6)
just to name a few
Unfortunately haven`t seen the webmaster of Lamachinealaver for a long time on AW, I`m sure he could shed some light on the subject.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK


Post# 1054310 , Reply# 68   12/14/2019 at 19:01 by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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Just got caught up with this thread.

Sorry to hear of all your trouble.

I am the member in Massachusetts who has the "Dreaded" Miele 4842.

I bought it in 2012. My first issue was the detergent drawer would pop open slightly at the start of the cycle. 3 drawers later, that was fine. The dealer I bought it from had their own service tech replace them.

4 months later the Main Bearing went. The Dealer Tech told me it was because I was using Persil Powder.Nice young man but I told him there is no way detergent could have caused a bearing failure. The Young man also said it was not the bearing. I told him I have been in the restaurant business as a chef and am surrounded by all sorts of machinery and I know th sound a failed bearing makes. Now, the dealer calls Miele. Miele did send a tech up to Mass. from New Jersey. They usually send the tech to this area for a week and covers all the "difficult" issues.

This guy was wonderful. I think his name was Sheldon. First thing I did before he touched the machine was spin the tub by hand producing th "Grinding" sound a shot bearing will make. He looked rather shocked and then we began to talk. Hooked up his Laptop and went on diagnosing th problem.

First Miele wanted to pick up my machine, take it to their shop in New Jersey, repair it then ship it back.

I told them NO WAY is that machine to be repaired. I paid $1900.00 for a Washer and IT WILL BE REPLACED.

I was kind to the Tech as he agreed with me. Miele was telling him bout the pick up nonsense. I said in a loud voice while Sheldon was on the phone" Well, I will call my attorney if this machine is not replaced".

I was told a New Machine will be delivered in 4 days.

As tis was my first Front Load, I had to experience the learning curve. Alexander from Germany was kind enough to send me the Service Manual and proceeded to go into Programmig and add "Water Plus" plus week a few things.

I hope this is not the Kiss of Death, but the Machine has served me well. I never overload it and also never use Maximum Spin. I use High. I just feel this is fast enough and saves a bit on the bearing. Just my thought.

Use Persil Universal Powder or Rosalie's. Bleach occasionally nd a touch of White Vinegar once a week.

I never ever had any odors or moldy boot issues. I attribute it to Never washing in cold water and liquid detergents or Fabric Softener. Washes are either Hot, Very Warm or Warm.

So back to the thread (Sorry about the ramble). I am Happy they replaced your machine. The Service can get one a bit "Heated" when dealing with them on the phone.

Enjoy your machine and hope this one is "Immer Besser"


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Post# 1054318 , Reply# 69   12/14/2019 at 22:12 by aamassther (Hendersonville, NC )        

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So it seems this insert should never be used for bleach

It would appear that neither chlorine bleach nor liquid hydrogen peroxide is especially suited for release in the prewash cycle. And chlorine should probably not be used in this machine at any time. It seems that if one wanted to use liquid hydrogen peroxide, there’s not an easy (correct) way to do it with this machine. Perhaps better off using a powdered product if oxygen bleaching is necessary.

While I’ve not used H2O2 in the prewash, you certainly can. I often do a prewash with just ammonia followed by a very hot main wash with Miele ultrawhite, you could do the same with H2O2. While you can do the same with chlorine, I prefer not to. I like it rinsed before the main wash. One easy way to mix powder and liquid supplies in one load is to put powder in the drawer and the liquid in a dosing ball, mine’s silicone.
There is no provision for turning bleach on or off in the menus- bleach is not discussed in the manual either. Full stop. My dispenser has the same thing on it. If you want to use bleach you’re left to figure it out on your own. That’s why I do it in a quick wash prior to the main cycle, and only very occasionally. I much prefer regular use of oxygen bleaches to maintain white.


Post# 1054349 , Reply# 70   12/15/2019 at 15:39 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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Hydrogen peroxide will do next to nothing in a pre-wash cycle.

There is too much organic matter present on laundry for the stuff to even make a dent in germ count. Then fact cycle is short and uses cool water means whatever other benefits (stain removal, whitening, etc....) would be limited to nil.

You shouldn't wash in dirty water, nor bleach if possible.

Ammonia OTOH is nothing but an alkaline gas dissolved in water. It is the pH properties one is after thus adding that substance as a "break" is no different than using washing soda, sodium metasilicate, lye, caustic soda, or any of the other base substances used to raise pH of water. What you're basically doing is creating a saponifying reaction by base combining with fats/oils (found on laundry), to "break" the soil away from textiles.


Post# 1054365 , Reply# 71   12/15/2019 at 17:45 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

The W1 is the machine that has the setting for chlorine bleach. Since I don't use chlorine bleach I have never turned it on. If you use it, it is poured into the prewash cup and is dispensed a few minutes before the wash completes. If you have the setting enabled you cannot do a prewash.

As delivered the setting is off and you have to enable it in the settings if you want to use it. There is really no need to do so with the machine since it mixes I think,10% hydrogen peroxide in with the detergent while it is washing.



Post# 1054807 , Reply# 72   12/19/2019 at 14:01 by Sgt10 (California )        
Postscript on washer replacement by Miele

As of Dec 16, I have finally reached (for now) the end of my Miele repair journey. What I haven't shared yet is just how difficult it was to get a successful install of the new replacement washer. The installation team retained by Miele was sloppy and uninformed. During their installation, they managed to kick loose the dryer vent from the dryer. After they left and I did my first load of laundry and loaded it into the dryer, I realized that the dryer was venting in the room, not outside. I also realized that I could not fix this myself. The washer and dryer sit in a drain pan and are under a heavy (removable) shelf. I managed to maneuver a camera in place to confirm the problem, but other than that, I was out of luck. I simply could not move the washer out of the way myself to reattach the vent. So I had to contact Miele quality assurance again and tell them the problem. It took TWO more repair visits and two more days off work and another week of doing laundry off site to correct their sloppy and careless install. I am pleased that all is working now, but extremely frustrated that it took so much of my time and money to get to a stable situation for a problem with an 11 month old Miele washer.

Lessons learned? I'm not sure. I now know that Miele's service network leaves much to be desired, and that the installation options for a Miele are terrible too. What would be better? It depends on what one means by better. If by better one means a machine that will not break, then perhaps one wants what some suggested above, a Speed Queen. If by better, one means a machine that offers equivalent washing performance AND does not break or can be easily repaired if it does break, then I am stumped.

Just for fun, here's a photo of how the Miele-hired installer delivered the new Little Giant...in an open bed pick-up truck, unsecured by any restraints to keep it from moving around.


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Post# 1054830 , Reply# 73   12/19/2019 at 16:21 by jerrod6 (Philadelphia(center city), Pennsylvania)        

I think Miele in the California location you live in needs better training. I have never had a Miele product delivered in an open truck like that. My W1 came in a covered truck and in a box and the installers had to open that first before getting to it.

If these are the authorized installers I would share this picture with Miele in NJ. Better yet, send a letter to the headquarters in Germany. Completely unacceptable - the service you have received.

How is the new washer performing?


Post# 1054872 , Reply# 74   12/19/2019 at 23:52 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
As Have Said....

launderess's profile picture
Miele has struggled with recruiting and retaining service/installation techs, but then again so have many other appliance places. Miele's woes are greater because of obstacles needing to be overcome by their pretty much having been a niche east coast brand.

IIRC in past they had hired out installation and service for parts of California, and results were mixed to bad. So Miele brought things back in house, now it seems they're all over the place.

Believe Miele closed their California tech/call center and moved things out to Utah. This could have been in reaction to various issues from wages to talent or whatever.

Miele unlike say Kenmore or other well known USA appliance giants doesn't have luxury of a decades old nationwide tech/repair force. Even though Sears long has since sliced repair/service away, it still was in a better position than Miele.

Then you have fact so much about Miele appliances is proprietary; parts, service manuals, etc.. at least in North America. In EU one can buy Miele spares "off the shelf" as it were any where. Now one can hunt down specific Miele repair manuals but there isn't any promise you'll find exact one needed.

All this being said, welcome to the new economy. No one wants to keep service techs, installers, etc... on payrolls; so everything is either outsourced or done on contract. As myself and others have stated; if you live in northeast, in particular PA, NJ, NY, Conn, Boston, etc.... Miele service, sales and installation is slightly better thanks to home court advantage. Further west or whatever one goes things become a dice shoot.

Cannot imagine paying nearly two grand for a washing machine, and far more for new heat pump dryer only to have thing break down. Kicker is having to do without said appliance for one, two, three or more weeks.


Post# 1054881 , Reply# 75   12/20/2019 at 00:29 by Sgt10 (California )        

Jerrod- I actually did send the pickup truck photo to the Quality Assurance department of Miele USA , and described the shoddy delivery process as well. My Miele contact agreed that the delivery was not all he had hoped for, but vague regret was about all he offered. The delivery team were in fact Miele authorized installers. They told me they have Miele “training” once per year.

And the Laundress is right. California was one of the last places that Miele maintained its Miele Concierge service, where they handled all installations (including those sold from local retailers) in house. Jan 1, 2019, they dismantled this network and made individual retail outlets responsible for installations. Miele still has their red Miele trucks, but these are for repairs, not installations. And the Miele dispatchers for their repair calls do seem to be located in Utah, at least that’s what they said when I called to complain about the long wait time.

Given these inadequacies, it would seem that Miele is destined to be a niche product here, and they don’t appear to care much. Architects are pleased to specify them as they fit small spaces (and under counters), and meet some perceived upscale hurdle, and those of us who appreciate good washing performance (and cross our fingers that nothing will go wrong with the machine) may also purchase them, but they clearly have many drawbacks, some of which only become crystal clear after purchase.

If my Miele T9820 gas dryer quits, I would not even consider a Miele dryer. I would rather replace it with another gas dryer. I do feel a bit like I am living on borrowed time with the dryer. After all, it was the death of my matching W4840 washer which led last December to my purchase of the Miele W1, whichl leaked and was replaced. . And almost every time a Miele tech came to try to “repair” the W1, they looked at the dryer and commented ominously that they couldn’t get many replacement parts for the dryer any more.



Post# 1054888 , Reply# 76   12/20/2019 at 02:03 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
You cannot get another Miele gas dryer "new" as it was; since after the fiasco of that huge dryer (that matched 48XX washers), Miele no longer offers them in North America for residential use. Not sure about commercial laundry appliances.

For awhile it was only electric condenser (non vented), now Miele also offers heat pump dryers as well (electric), but that is all.

IIRC Miele had never built a gas dryer for domestic use previously, and had all sorts of problems with that large unit. Hence they threw in towel on both washer and dryer withdrawing both from market.


Post# 1054892 , Reply# 77   12/20/2019 at 03:11 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
As a matter of fact Miele has built a gas dryer for the European market, the T478G. It was their first and last attempt to sell gas dryers here, there is only a niche market for them here. A lot of people on the European continent have their washer and dryer in a bathroom. People are reluctant to install gas appliances in bathrooms due to a high number of deaths caused by carbon monoxide from water heaters that were installed in bathrooms. Here's a picture of a G478G that is for sale near me. It doesn't sell even though the price is only 50 euros.



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Post# 1054921 , Reply# 78   12/20/2019 at 12:38 by Sgt10 (California )        
And forgot to mention

Jerrod- In answer to your question, the new Little Giant is performing well, certainly up to expectations. And while I had gotten used to the TwinDos dispensing of the W1 (useful to me only after Miele started selling the Sensitive version of TwinDos), I do find the greater ability to customize cycles appealing. (I can specify up to 5! rinses on Cottons, and add a pre-wash and even a pre-rinse in the same cycle if I want. I do like being able to do both prewash and extra rinse at the same time, which I couldn’t do in the W1. Each machine has its quirks. The W1 has a soak cycle, but not the Little Giant (a cycle which seems to come and go in Miele machines. My older Miele 1100 would allow for a soak, but no extra rinse). The W1 also has a hand wash cycle, and the Little Giant doesn’t (but the Little Giant does have both a silks and a woolens cycle, which I think come very close to the hand wash cycle). And then the Little Giant has some specialty cycles which can be useful (like a Sluice cycle which is good for rags: it adds two pre-rinses before the wash cycle to get rid of debris).

Post# 1054944 , Reply# 79   12/20/2019 at 18:29 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
For most purposes dedicated "Silk" or "Woolens" cycles beat just one hand wash.

Both fabrics are ones likely to be washed but require very different treatment in terms of water temp, mechanical action, cycle length, etc....

Many other things once covered by generic hand wash cycles (curtains, lace bed/table linens, etc..), can either have dedicated cycles, or one can modify certain others to suit with some machines.

In healthcare a sluice washer will have a suds container with decent sized holes to allow better draining/removal of solid matter (feces, vomit, etc...). They usually don't have door boots, drain pumps or other things were such matter can collect and be reintroduced during subsequent cycles.

Sluicing via machine is meant to replace old practice for healthcare laundry, diapers, and so forth of rinsing by hand to remove solid matter before things went to the wash.

Notice in video diapers are loaded into washer waste and all:





Difference between a "pre-wash" or "pre-rinse" is mainly water level; former is low while latter high. For sluicing and or to promote optimal debris removal you want high water level. OTOH for stain treatment/pre-washing you want basically same water level as wash cycles.


Post# 1054974 , Reply# 80   12/21/2019 at 00:20 by Sgt10 (California )        
Little Giant may be part of Miele Commercial but....

Even though it’s called a “sluice” cycle it wouldn’t approach what you are describing. The Little Giant seems more like a well-built (and admittedly very expensive) residential machine. I wonder what percentage of the Little Giants are truly installed in commercial applications. I suppose then, too, there is a difference between “commercial laundry” and “used in a commercial application” (eg. washing hand towels in a beauty salon).

Post# 1054985 , Reply# 81   12/21/2019 at 01:37 by Logixx (Germany)        
What percentage?

logixx's profile picture
At least here, LiGis are typically installed at the laundromat.

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Post# 1054990 , Reply# 82   12/21/2019 at 03:03 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Am going out on a limb to say

launderess's profile picture
Miele Little Giant's are in On Premise Laundry (OPL) category. That is a tier or two above residential, but an entry or lower tier commercial washer or dryer.

Capacity a bit larger (10kg),tad more robust construction and so forth; but key thing is to do lots of washing day in and out rather quickly. Nearly twice or more heating power of domestic washing machines (for most part) means Miele LGs can reach target temps faster, and thus get on with things.







Robust parts and design give washer or dryer with ability to have duty cycles measured in vastly higher multiples per day than compared to domestic units on weekly basis.

Case in point someone who joined several months ago whose laundry usage knackered a new Miele domestic washer in a very short period of time. IIRC they went with a Little Giant or were leaning in that direction.

Closest domestic equivalent likely would be Speed Queen front loaders, those machines have never varied much from Alliance's offerings for OPL market.

All this being said, Miele has long been a player in Waschsalon market. You can find their units in laundromats all over Germany, Austria and other parts of Europe.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Launderess's LINK


Post# 1054994 , Reply# 83   12/21/2019 at 03:25 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Just as with USA

launderess's profile picture
There are schemes to get people going with a Miele stocked laundromat.

www.bloomestlaundry.at/en...



Post# 1055831 , Reply# 84   12/28/2019 at 19:15 by iej (Ireland)        
How is Miele USA service this bad?

I've a good few Miele appliances here in Ireland and their service is generally phenomenally good. That's sort of the main reason I bought their appliances in the first place.

When I have had a fault they're prompt about call outs. It's always a Miele technician with the right equipment. They follow up extremely well and get parts within a couple of days. Couldn't be more professional and organised if they tried and they'll often go way out of their way with older appliances too in terms of finding parts and supporting them.

It seems their US division is quite different to the experience over here.

I also note from some media coverage in Germany that they're about to reorganise how the US division reports to the German HQ. Seems there's some new direct reporting to the board coming in so, maybe things will change.



Post# 1056851 , Reply# 85   1/8/2020 at 09:14 by SGT10 (California )        
The end of my leaking W1 => Little Giant replacement saga

I wrote to Miele Quality Control. I outlined all the difficulties with the install process and requested a significant discount on the Little Giant trade out/“upgrade” . They agreed to my request and it certainly helped reduce (but not eliminate) my frustration with their service and installation network.

Interesting that their service is so good in some other countries that it is actually a selling point. What a contrast to the situation here in the United States.

As a ironic coda to the entire situation, one of the reasons I changed to the Little Giant was my belief that these semi commercial machines were constructed more robustly. I had based that belief on prior experience with a Little Giant that had been trouble free for years (used at a vacation home). Well, this past weekend I used that older “trouble free” Little Giant and I ended up with 1/2 inch of water in the galvanized pan it rested in. The thing leaked like crazy. It’s the Merry Go Round of Miele pain coming back for me. And this time, I will have little recourse because the machine is older and long out of warranty.





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