Thread Number: 81158  /  Tag: Ranges, Stoves, Ovens
Is this really from 1970 why would you need a transformer for a stove?
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Post# 1051738   11/20/2019 at 14:12 (1,589 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        

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This is listed on Ebay and it says it will need a transformer as its 110 volts Now I thought it would have needed 110 just for the clock and other peripherals as the elements need 240 is that right?

I think someone needs to let the seller know before someone gets blown sky high...

Austin


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Post# 1051745 , Reply# 1   11/20/2019 at 14:52 (1,589 days old) by turquoisedude (.)        

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Early to mid 50s not 1970 for sure.   Wiring one of these for use in the UK would be tricky for sure...  a range like this uses 110v and 220v for the range surface units; components like the clock and lights all run on 110v though.

 


Post# 1051749 , Reply# 2   11/20/2019 at 16:17 (1,589 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

I can't vouch for the year of manufacture; however I can explain about the transformer.

 

In North America, we have 240V power, with a center-tapped transformer. This allows taking "half" the 240 and running 120V loads from it.  The center-tap is used as Neutral, and also tied to earth ground in our systems.  Therefore, you have a choice of providing 120V or 240V; or both; depending on how you tap the power from the breaker box to the load.

 

In the UK and most other places, they have 240V without center tap.  All the live circuits are 240V relative to Neutral. There is no center-tap and therefore no 120V present in the system.

 

To operate the lights, clock, or other 120V features, the stove would need a transformer to provide it with a separate 120V power source.


Post# 1051750 , Reply# 3   11/20/2019 at 16:30 (1,589 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room)        

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Another electrical issue, too, would that the clock would probably not be accurate if used in the UK. Clocks are locked to AC frequency, so a 60 Hz clock would run slower if used on 50 Hz power. Although one supposes the clock might have been adapted or replaced at some point on this specific stove. Also it might not matter to some users if they don't use the automatic features on a stove clock (or else gets really good at doing calculations to adjust for the clock's inaccuracy).

Post# 1051751 , Reply# 4   11/20/2019 at 16:54 (1,589 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

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In the U.S. (and about 6 other countries) we have primarily a 120 volt/15 Amp power system.
EVERYWHERE else in the world, they have an approx. 240 volt/7.5 amps system.

The Amps are what kill so a 240 volt system with half the Amps compared to the U.S. system, is safer. That's why most countries opted to go with the 240 volt system. You can have 10,000 volts but if it's not carrying any AMPS, you won't get a shock from it.

So No, the 240 U.S. stove in the UK is Not going to work on the British 240 electric system because the Amps there are half what is needed to make it work.

You could use a typical 'EU to U.S.' power converter to use the lights, outlets and the clock and you'd have to isolate those wires so they can be plugged into the converter.

If one were really interested in using that stove in a 240 volt country it would be better to rewire it.
You really wouldn't have much need for the U.S. outlets on the surface, anyway.


Post# 1051762 , Reply# 5   11/20/2019 at 17:57 (1,589 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

LordKenmore - you're totally right about that!  I didn't think of the clock! The old Telechron-style clocks did indeed time by using a synchronous motor linked to power frequency.  Would be running quite slow if designed for 60 Hz and run on 50. undecided

 

As far as volts and amps and which system supplies what...  Loads like a stove, dryer, or central HVAC system have a dedicated circuit with whatever breaker is recommended for the end device. A 50A for a stove for instance. These for the larger appliances. Since this discussion was about a large free-standing range, that's what I am going to be focused on.

 

For outlets; in USA, we have multiple branch circuits for our regular, every day wall outlets. They often have rated 15A outlets with a 20A circuit breaker supplying 3 or 4 outlets. A house may have many of these, 10 or 20 or more 120V branch circuits. The outlets provide whatever the appliance plugged in demands, and as long as the total on that circuit does not exceed 20 amps, there is not a trip.

 

In other parts of the world, they often have a ring-main configuration, with a single breaker powering many outlets. The appliance power cords themselves each have their own own fuse or overcurrent protection. 

 

These are two different ways of accomplishing similar things. The differences are in where the complexity lies and where the costs are located in the system.

 

You can't say that the UK system has half the amps as the USA system. Both provide what the connected appliance demands, until an overcurrent device trips. In the US system, that is a breaker in the panel whereas in the UK it should be the fuse in the appliance cord its self.

 

The center-tapped neutral of the USA system is in place to reduce the voltage potential from phase to earth ground. This will reduce the level of injury caused in a typical electric shock accident. People are injured by the amount of current which flows through the body, and the path it takes through the body. A confined current path from one finger to another because you touched the outlet terminals while plugging it in will not kill you.  A current path from a hand, through the body, to a foot or the other hand can indeed kill. These dangerous shock paths are likely to result by one hand's contact with one part of a circuit, and another body part touching earth ground. The center-tapped system reduces by half, the potential from a live conductor to ground. The amount of amps which flow through a person's body is determined by two things: The voltage applied, and the resistance of the body. Body resistance varies widely; based on what (if any) clothing or shoes are in the ground contact path; and how dry your skin is.  That can't be predicted. But Ohm's law states that current is equal to voltage divided by resistance. I=(V/R). So if you cut the voltage in half, for any given conditions you would cut the shock current by half.  There is another effect which has to be taken into consideration. The human body has a thin dry layer of skin which protects against low voltages, to some degree. Below about 50V on unbroken skin, you will not receive a dangerous shock. Above 50V things go badly because the dry outer layer of skin may break down and allow the current to break through to the wet (and very conductive) layers underneath. This happens suddenly and, again, can't be predicted. When it happens, a mild shock suddenly turns into a major electrocution. The higher the voltage potential between the conductor and ground, the greater the chance of this happening. 

 

So, the conclusion is, the more complex center-tapped system in US was envisioned to help save lives. It limits the level of injury in event of an accidental contact with a live conductor. This was developed before the concept of GFCI or RCD systems were possible and we still use it.

 

 

 

 

 


Post# 1051806 , Reply# 6   11/21/2019 at 01:03 (1,589 days old) by norgeway (mocksville n c )        
That stove

Is a 48 or 49, These were the ones that had concealed bake units that nearly always caused premature rusting of the oven floor.

Post# 1051812 , Reply# 7   11/21/2019 at 03:06 (1,589 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Thank you everyone for explaining that issue

ozzie908's profile picture
So it makes one wonder WHY they bothered to ship it over ?

Maybe it was a complete house move..

Austin


Post# 1051815 , Reply# 8   11/21/2019 at 03:46 (1,589 days old) by peterlondon (london uk)        
American Range

Hey all.
I did contact the seller as I was sorta thinking about buying it.

To cut a long story short,the sellers mother shipped it here in 1960 when she moved from the states.

It is connected and has been used since then. Apparantly 3 of the four burners work
and one of the ovens.

I think the seller thought the stove would need a tranny because obviously it has appliance outlets which are 110.

so,partially working bit of americana.Who is gonna go for it?


pete





Post# 1051825 , Reply# 9   11/21/2019 at 05:52 (1,589 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
120 vs 240 Volts Reply #5

combo52's profile picture

Hi David great explanation, I knew what you explained very well, lower voltages in terms of getting shocked are generally safer.

 

US wiring systems in commercial and better homes are very safe, in my home and the warehouse alike all wiring is in metal conduit which is much safer if you have a lighting strike nearby, the conductors can literally turn red hot without setting fire to adjacent wood parts of the home.

 

In US homes we use lots of smaller separate circuits, my home has close to 80 circuits and the warehouse already has over a 100.

 

I try to keep circuit size down, only 15 amps is necessary for most outlets, electric ranges dryers should never be fused at higher levels than necessary [ almost no electric ranges need a 50 amp line for example ] Run the heavier cable but keep the breaker size down.

 

In my kitchen the 5 element TD drop-in range is on 40 amps, the TD double Micro-convection wall oven, 40 amps, the four burner induction CT 30 amps and the Jenn-Air down draft CT 15 amps [ it is the two element model ] The kitchen has over 20 separate circuits and we have cooked for groups of over 80 and tried a breaker in over 30 years.

 

Where the US lower 120 volts is bad is in terms of copper use, we use nearly twice as much copper to wire a house as if all the circuits were 240 volts because the lower voltage requires the wire to be twice as thick, this is also why we use a split voltage for large [ generally ] permanently wired in loads as the copper wire sizes would be absurd for a 120 volt electric range.

 

John L.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Post# 1051957 , Reply# 10   11/22/2019 at 15:19 (1,587 days old) by iej (.... )        

Re #4, yes the current is what is the killer, but both 120V (US) or 230V (EU) power are potentially deadly.
That's why RCDs (European terminology for GFCIs) are generally required on most circuits in most European countries for quite a long time and that's where the IEC (global) rules are moving towards.

A few milliamps across your heart or nervous system can kill.

US stove / dryer circuits are usually split-phase with two phases (hots) at 120V (potential to ground) and 240V (potential between phases).

European 230V is just 230V potential to ground and is not split phase. So you've a 230V phase (hot), a 0V (neutral) and a 0V protective earth (ground).

Typically a single phase stove (cooker) hook up in the UK or Ireland is 32A at 230V giving up to 7360 Watts of power.

32Amps at 120V is 3840 Watts, so the higher voltage supply is capable of carrying roughly twice the current.

To use that stove in the UK would be quite complicated as you'd have to separate the wiring for the lights and controls and the heating elements. You could probably supply the heating elements with 230V phase-to-neutral and they'd operate quite happily.

Getting 120V to the clocks and lights would require a step down transformer and separate wiring. If the clocks/lights internally were connected to one side of the heater wiring an neutral they would get 230V in a European hook up, so you'd have to completely separate them from the internal wiring and ensure they were getting supplied on a separate 120V circuit. Depending on how the wiring is done internally, that could be very simple, or very awkward and you almost certainly wouldn't be able to solve the problem using the wiring terminals on the back of the stove itself. It would mean wiring it internally.

The supply frequency is of no concern to heaters, they're just simple resistances, but any motors could potentially run slow on 50Hz. Universal motors won't care, but AC synchronous motors do. If there are any cooling or circulating fans that could be an issue too, if they're synchronous motors.


Post# 1051961 , Reply# 11   11/22/2019 at 15:45 (1,587 days old) by iej (.... )        

In terms of circuits, the UK approach uses rings - circuits fed from both ends to supply socket outlets. Each ring is fused at 32 amps and could be seen as a power bus.

The socket outlets are connected at points along the ring and every plug used carries a fuse which is rated from 3 to 13amps, depending on the appliance's expected load. There are no such thing as non-fused plugs and there are also no 2-pin plugs. Socket outlets also all have safety shutters that are operated by the ground pin being inserted or a combination of ground pin + pressure on the hot and neutral receptacles. Those have been required since the 1940s.

In modern installations, each ring would also be protected with a RCD (GFCI).

In continental European systems (and also quite often in Ireland even though we also use the same UK fused plugs), there's typically a radial circuit serving each room (often with several supplying heavy load areas like the kitchen). These are usually rated 16 amps or 20 amps and would supply multiple socket outlets Continental European plugs are not fused and non-grounded versions are used on appliances that don't have a grounding requirement. The usual design "schuko" doesn't use a 3rd pin to ground, but rather uses two clips, located at the top and bottom of the plug that connect with a scraping contact on the recessed socket outlets.

There are also have individual breakers (or combined GFCI and breaker units) serving fixed appliances, stoves and lighting circuits are entirely separate usually on 6amp or 10amp circuits.

The UK system tends to mean you've less breakers, because the final stage of fusing is local, but the continental and Irish systems are broadly similar to the US.

Most European countries mandate RCDs (GFCIs) at the circuit level. In older regs this might only have covered socket outlets circuits and water heaters etc, but in more recent revisions in many countries, they are required for all circuits.

European wiring typically isn't carried in metal ducts in residential wiring, but European construction is generally based around masonry, plaster and block-work, so in general fire risks are much lower and would be contained by the building itself. The higher voltage also tends to mean much less risk of overloaded circuits. So, in general metal conduit is not used, although there are exceptions to that in certain construction.

In commercial and industrial installations wiring's often ducted and carried in cable trays.

In my house there are about 30 circuits:

Socket outlets (20amps) (RCD protected in groups) - one breaker feeds each room (more or less). Typically would have 4 X double sockets in al room.
Kitchen outlets- 3 20A RCBOs - includes dishwasher etc - 10 X double socket plates.
Lights (6amps) (RCD protected in groups)
Oven+built in microwave combination oven - 32A with RCBO (Combined breaker and GFCI/RCD)
Hob (cook top) 20A RCBO
Washing machine + Dryer (heat pump) - 20A RCBO
Bathroom lighting : RCBOs - (there are no bathroom socket outlets allowed in Ireland or the UK other than special 2-pin outlet that's protected by an isolating transformer and limited to 200mA and can only fit shaver/toothbrush plugs - you cannot install any appliances in the bathroom or use hairdryers etc. Normal outlets are not provided and even light switches are located outside the room or operated by pull string from the ceiling)
Outdoor sockets - 20A RCBO
Water heater - 20A RCBO
Central heating system (gas boiler, pumps, control system, solar panels for hot water etc) - 16A RCBO.

Some other random minor thing on the panel too - door bell transformer and so on.





Post# 1051963 , Reply# 12   11/22/2019 at 15:54 (1,587 days old) by iej (.... )        

BTW: (sorry for the long post) on the lightning risk : In general, in Ireland and Britain the risk of lightening strike is extremely low compared to lightening prone areas of the USA. While it's possible, it's rather rare that you'd get a strike. Also, far less wiring is carried overhead at the distribution level than in the USA, so again that risk is lower.

In areas of France where lightening is a more common risk, they use lightening arrestors at the circuit board level. So, in the event of a power surge, these will blow, protecting the house wiring.

That map would give you a sense of the difference in lightening risk between most of Europe and the continental USA:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributi...

It's quite different climate, particularly when you compare Northern Europe, and especially Ireland and Britain, with the areas of the US hit by tropical systems i.e. Florida, SW generally. It's like chalk and cheese.



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