Thread Number: 81225  /  Tag: Detergents and Additives
Interesting Take On Powdered Detergent Market
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Post# 1052429   11/27/2019 at 04:29 (1,584 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
For your Thanksgiving holiday weekend reading.

cen.acs.org/business/consumer-pr...





Post# 1052431 , Reply# 1   11/27/2019 at 05:46 (1,584 days old) by turbokinetic (Northport, Alabama USA)        

That is interesting; thanks.


Post# 1052433 , Reply# 2   11/27/2019 at 05:52 (1,584 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
Liquids v Powders

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Good Morning Launderess, a fab read with lots of detail, there is a great comment from a Chemist which is the crux of the issue with UK & European markets apart from the Bleach issue ha ha..Thanks for posting !!

Chemist Comment.."Thanks for publishing it. I was surprised, though, that it did not include at least a small paragraph discussing the differences in these formulations' packaging. It would have been more consistent with C&EN past coverage of the global plastic waste problem to point out that a tremendous amount of plastic waste would be eliminated by converting from liquid cleaning products (detergents, hand sanitizers, etc.) to powdered or solid cleaning products.


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Post# 1052434 , Reply# 3   11/27/2019 at 06:18 (1,584 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Ecolab among other

launderess's profile picture
Institutional laundry (and dish washing) suppliers has an array of solid products. Problem is dispensing, which by the way in unique to each brand. That is what works for Johnson-Diversy won't for Ecolab, and vice versa.

Domestic manufacturers tried reintroducing tablets for both laundry and dish washing with various levels of success. Pods now seem to be the next big thing as gels never caught on, and that dreadful Persil "chips" died a quick and merciful death. *LOL*

Thing about pods is as they age that poly vinyl seems resistant to dissolving fully. This and or thanks to ever puny water usage the things just won't melt fully. Either way result is same, bits of plastic stuck to one's wash, and if not caught before going into dryer or whatever will prove nearly impossible to shift.


Post# 1052441 , Reply# 4   11/27/2019 at 09:15 (1,583 days old) by tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Thank you, Launderess!

The problem with tablets in their last introduction is that by then FL machines used too little water to dissolve the tablets so they had to be smushed up by hand before goiing into the drawer or drum.


Post# 1052483 , Reply# 5   11/27/2019 at 17:51 (1,583 days old) by sarahperdue (Alabama)        
Alka Seltzer

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Maybe someone should create wash tablets with soda and citric acid or something else that causes them to dissolve in water.

Off the cuff idea from someone with no knowledge of chemistry.

Sarah


Post# 1052497 , Reply# 6   11/27/2019 at 19:42 (1,583 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Bicarbonate of soda

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Is something you actually don't want much if any of in laundry. Besides most forms of powdered detergent contain some amount of washing soda; this will break down to leave a residue of bicarbonate. Purpose of adding acid to final rinse (or second to last) is to remove trace remaining amounts of carbonate residue (laundry sour) so things won't turn yellow when exposed to heat, and or feel hard/scratchy.

Problem with tablets at least was finding substances that would bind things together but also allow for easy dissolving in wash.

If you look at difference between say tabs for automatic dishwashers, versus those for laundry you'll see a difference at once.

The latter are almost rock solid, and if left long enough will become like bricks. OTOH laundry tabs will crumble easily when new, and if allowed to sit will often eventually turn to "dust" on their own. That or slightest movement and they fall apart.

Once had a huge stash of Electrasol tablets. Took so long to work way through that by final canisters had to take a mallet and whack things into bits before putting into machine. Otherwise tabs didn't fully dissolve during wash.

Now have some Wisk tabs of old that have sat so long in packets contents have turned into powder.

Other problem with tabs is if the formula contains bleaching agents, and the things don't totally dissolve at once, there is a good chance any large enough bits remaining will leave color loss spots.

Suspect as noted above this is one reason why tablets were withdrawn largely from European and North American markets. Modern front loaders use such puny amounts of water there is a risk whole tablets won't dissolve easily or totally.


Post# 1052533 , Reply# 7   11/28/2019 at 04:37 (1,583 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

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Sarah you are spot on!
Tablets that are designed to dissolve quickly in the detergent drawer use exactly the fizzy effervescent principle as the pharmaceutical industry uses for products like Alka Selzer.
At least this is the most common way to go but also found in combination with others chemicals that swell on contact with water or enhance kapillar forces into the tabs.





Post# 1052740 , Reply# 8   11/29/2019 at 20:54 (1,581 days old) by Iej (.... )        

I was just having a browse of an Irish supermarket's laundry products section, and u would reckon that about 10% or less of the shelf space was given over to powder based tablets seem to be completely gone, other than a few store brands.

The dominant format is pods. Ariel Pods are more or less identical to Tide pods, but maybe have different formulation because of scent preferences. P&G Bold, which is basically the same product but focused on scents is in exactly the same formats and even budget brand Daz has entirely gone over to pods.

On the Unilever side, Persil is also using a multichamber pod for both their bio and non bio ranges while Surf, more focused on scents and value (although it's moving away from that) is just a simple single chamber pod.

The store brands also all do pods of various designs.

I think people are becoming accustomed to the quirks of pods too - making sure to place them at the back and bottom of the drum, or inside a sock or whatever to ensure they don't end up on the door seal. I'm surprised that no European washing machine maker has yet launched a pod friendly dispensing system. I think Electrolux did in the US, so it's not like they couldn't just roll it out here in Electrolux, AEG and Zanussi brands. The focus seems to be all on auto dosing liquids amongst the manufacturers.

Other than that there's a reasonable number of liquids on sale - they're probably been driven up by the advent of more auto dosing machines, which have reservoirs. They're moving back to runny liquids and away from the gloopier almost gel like formats that were around for a while.

The are still some gels, notably Ariel, but I don't think they really ever took off as they're just too messy and involve those damn noisy caps that bounce around the drum. They've the consistency of a blue gel toothpaste.

Persil (Unilever) had (has) a weird version called Power Gems. They're like little chips, that remind me a bit of a high tech reincarnation of Lux flakes. They're like confetti in a plastic bottle. These are supposed to be dispensed directly into the drum, using the measuring cap as a dosing device. I tried them and they didn't dissolve very well and were generally an absolute disaster - they were stuck all around the door seal of my Miele, even after a deep, water plus rinse cycle!!

In smaller stores powder isn't always stocked anymore at all, so I'm assuming it's a dying format.

All of the specialist detergents - wools, silks, even some in store brands marketed at jeans etc are liquids.

There were a few eco detergents all of which are liquids: Ecover (three versions), Ariel Pure Clean, Method and Winni's, an Italian eco brand that's stocked by Dunnes (major Irish supermarket chain).

Other than that there's the usual vast array of fabric softeners from non scented, to eco, to every agent you can possibly think of. Also I noticed that dryer sheets, which used to be fairly popular here, particularly Bounce, seem to have all but vanished, and I would suspect that may be because of the change away from vented tumble dryers towards heat pumps and so on. In general dryer sheets are a disaster in any condensing dryer but are even worse in gear pumps as they can coat the evaporator with wax, so I'm guessing that that's why they've fallen out of favour.

Anyway, I guess the days of powder detergents are coming to a close here too. It's a shame in some ways as the packaging was a lot more ecological sound, simple cardboard boxes, than the bottles of liquids and ziplok bags and plastic boxes used for pods. The main argument made in favour of pods is they're super concentrated, this you've far less bulk and weight to distribute.

I guess powder laundry detergents are just going to go the way of powder floor cleaners. It's decades since those have been around!



Post# 1052741 , Reply# 9   11/29/2019 at 21:07 (1,581 days old) by Kate1 (PNW)        

I will very much miss powdered detergents if they become completely unavailable. I have a bottle of Tide ultra stain release that I use for pretreating stains and I use a liquid specially formulated for delicates on my sweaters and blouses but everything else is washed in Tide with bleach. I don’t care what anyone says, nothing else works as well.

Post# 1052743 , Reply# 10   11/29/2019 at 21:30 (1,581 days old) by Iej (.... )        

I mostly use the Miele Twin Dos Ultraphase 1 and 2 cartridges. So I'm still getting the effect of oxygen bleach on the whites/lights washes and no bleach or OBAs on the colour cycles, just a cocktail of enzymes and the usual synthetic surfactants and so on.

I agree though, it's hard to beat the old Ariel and Persil universal powders for cleaning power, but they were fairly harsh on colours. You'd really notice the difference when they were used with denim or any darker colours.

The main thing that annoys me about a lot of modern detergents is the scent. I find Ariel pods probably the best or a bad lot on that. They smell just fresh. Miele's stuff smells pretty good too and Unilever do a range called Neutral that has no scents at all which is also excellent.

I just can't stand the scent of the current versions of both Ariel and Unilever Persil powders. They both seem to have gone down the route of adding clinging, overpowering scents.



Post# 1052748 , Reply# 11   11/30/2019 at 03:43 (1,581 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

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I have found that I have to buy detergent through Amazon.

I am a true believer in powders. For Laundry, I find that Persil Universal Powder has been a winner for me for about 12 years now. A few times I have used Persil MegaPearls and were OK, but like the powder better.

Cascade Dishwashing Powder has been rapidly disappearing from the shelves at least here on the Cape Stores as well as Laundry Powders. Just don't like the idea of a plastic thing dissolving in the machine and the thoughts of invisible plastic clinging to my glasses, dishes, and flatware.

Was just looking yesterday on Amazon for Cascade Complete. They seem to have some good deals but good to know you can still get it without having to start formulating your own.

Thanks Laundress for the link to that read. Interesting. As Auntie Mame said... "Knowledge is Power". ; )


Post# 1052750 , Reply# 12   11/30/2019 at 04:31 (1,581 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
@ChestermikeUK

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How do you find Mrs. Meyer's "clean day" detergents?

Several bottles of the concentrated lavender version (with flip top), it cleans well enough but is devil to rinse. Very frothy if one uses even slightly too much, and can leave sort of a scum. The latter might be due to high soap content, I dunno.

Lavender scent doesn't remain long on air dried laundry, but product does clean well enough (packed with enzymes). Use it on dress shirts, bed linens, and even some not so dirty regular wash loads. Do add some oxygen bleach for whites and or where there are stains that need shifting.


Post# 1052773 , Reply# 13   11/30/2019 at 13:00 (1,580 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        
@toploader55

Eddie

As you buy DW detergent on Amazon, have you considered the Cascade Fryer Boil Out?

I purchased 7 boxes recently. (57 dollars, large boxes, so it was actually very cheap) the result is beyond impressive.


Post# 1052796 , Reply# 14   11/30/2019 at 17:50 (1,580 days old) by imperial70 (MA USA)        
Tide With Bleach

I got a box of tide with bleach. In my 24" GE I only use 2 tablespoons. We have very soft water (well water that is treated by the condo association). I like that I have some scent left after coming out of the dryer. Don't seem to need softener to rinse it clean. It says that it is an 80 load box but I have a feeling that I have about 160 loads. This should last me just over 1/2 a year.



Post# 1052823 , Reply# 15   12/1/2019 at 06:15 (1,580 days old) by Iej (.... )        

The one big issue I find with pods is the dose is too high for soft water. If I use them I get "check dose" warnings from the Miele W1 after the wash.

They're clearly just using hard water dose levels as the common denominator.


Post# 1052825 , Reply# 16   12/1/2019 at 06:33 (1,580 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Refuse to buy pods

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We are doing what we can to reduce plastic waste or consumption in our home, So its big box powder for all laundry I buy Sainsburys own bio for whites it has the highest bleach content in powder and a colour powder for darks etc. Nobody wears wool so that's not an issue. I use stain remover for really bad stains on whites as we use cloth napkins/serviettes.

On a side note we also went back to having milk delivered in glass bottles its a little bit more expensive but so worth it the milk tastes nicer than out the plastic container and OJ is delivered too.

I see some of our supermarkets are stopping the use of plastic bags to put fresh produce in instead you buy a reusable net with a drawstring which you use over again... Good ideas to help rid the planet of plastic.


Post# 1052884 , Reply# 17   12/1/2019 at 19:44 (1,579 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

Speaking of wool, I noticed recently that P&G has a liquid detergent for wool and delicates: Fairy Non-Bio. It is a clear transparent liquid, similar to the Persil Wool & Silk one.

It isn't made by P&G though, it's made by Star Brands. No dosage device, just pour a capful into the dispenser drawer. It seems to have anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants.


Post# 1052904 , Reply# 18   12/2/2019 at 01:46 (1,579 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        
Tide big boxes

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Was watching Mr. Mom from 1983. Michael Keaton was doing the shopping and what should he happen upon?

Remember these big boxes? Some even had handles. They came in like six sizes.

This is before they "condensed" the crystals and the box said to use at least a cup.

And remember that >>smell<< ......

And the suds.

I remember falling in love with Tide in about 1981 when Tide was still pure.

Remember getting a very large family size box (1984ish) from Kmart (?) with a hinged top and they put a scoop inside.
.
.
.

Then they whored Tide out... liquified it, mixed it with foreign perfumes like .....Hawaiian musk or Foggy sky .....stinky...... ruined it.

I was forced to find respite in the arms of Oxydol....

Perhaps there are good reasons why the stock value has fallen steadily. Just sayin'.   w1



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Post# 1053305 , Reply# 19   12/6/2019 at 08:17 (1,575 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Did two loads of table linens last night in the AEG

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One used Persil color gel with a scoop of oxygen bleach, other was just Persil powder.

While doing the ironing noticed things done in Persil powder were cleaner, brighter, and stain free. Load done with gel was clean enough and so forth one supposes, but traces of marks (red wine) were still slightly visible. Mind you had pre-treated all red wine stains on both loads, so it is telling that even with a dose of oxygen bleach persil gel couldn't totally shift.

Used gel on one load because it was done on "delicates" and find Persil powder can be difficult to rinse.


Post# 1053493 , Reply# 20   12/7/2019 at 23:33 (1,573 days old) by Dermacie (my forever home (Glenshaw, PA))        
Launderess

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Do they still have Persil powder available, I haven’t had it around me in nearly 2 years. I’m back on Tide powder, but I loved the Persil and truly miss it.

Post# 1053496 , Reply# 21   12/8/2019 at 00:42 (1,573 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Persil Powder

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Has been slightly harder to find since Miele gave Henkel the push in favor of their own house brand.

IIRC there is a Miele dealer or persons connected here in the group. Maybe make a general appeal and see what comes.


Post# 1053824 , Reply# 22   12/10/2019 at 11:45 (1,570 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        
Reply #13

toploader55's profile picture
Hi Thomas

I do have Cascade Boil out.

I think it was John L. that said that it was kind of harsh on the components of domestic machines. I use it a few times a month in my 2004 KenWhirl Power Module with the Plastic Tank. Keeps that Plastic a pure white as the driven snow.

I used to love Electra-Sol and Finish powder from (OMG) 20+ years ago.



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