Thread Number: 81254
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Buying New Dishwasher- need honest opinions |
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Post# 1052734   11/29/2019 at 19:22 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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I saw the price and ordered it:
www.homedepot.com/p/Kitch... However, a lot of negative reviews on Amazon and in general. Will it out-clean/out perform my current Maytag? www.homedepot.com/p/Mayta... I notice a re-redesigned pump, motor and filter. How does it clean? |
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Post# 1052737 , Reply# 1   11/29/2019 at 20:20 (1,608 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
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Congratulations on the new machine. Great price.
FWIW, Consumer Reports rated your KA as "Excellent" for both washing and drying, while a Maytag in the same line as the one you linked ranked "Very Good" for washing and "Excellent" for drying.
The KA is very quiet while the MT has a self-cleaning filter (soft grinder.) Really comes down to preference on that.
That's what tough about buying major appliances, you'll live with them for years but can't try them out in advance in any meaningful way. But these are both great machines, it's not like you can go wrong with either.
Looking forward to your report after you get it.
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Post# 1052749 , Reply# 2   11/30/2019 at 03:54 (1,608 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Interesting as I have been shopping around lately.
I would take John L'a advice (combo52) as he has been touting Maytag is the best dishwasher right now. Being he has always been "Whirlpool Forever" and yes, Whirlpool is Maytag now, I like the quick video of the Maytag's wash action. Seems to use a decent amount of water. The KitchenAid Prowash has that Squirt gun Zone. Hobart always has said "The water has to move or the Dishes have to move" for effective washing. Click on the video. www.homedepot.com/p/Mayta... |
Post# 1052751 , Reply# 3   11/30/2019 at 05:09 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Thanks for the replies.
I'm torn between the two. I currently have the Maytag and it cleaned very well until I had to take apart the mechanism to get rack ball bearings out of it. Drying could be a bit better though WAAAY better then the early 2010 Whirlpool machines I had briefly. Does the Kitchen Aid have a self clean filter or do I have to clean it? They seem to have some type of cylinder in the pump housing. www.searspartsdirect.com/... www.searspartsdirect.com/product... Also, what about Bosch or Miele? I want something that will 1) last and 2) clean without ANY pre-rinsing. |
Post# 1052752 , Reply# 4   11/30/2019 at 05:38 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052753 , Reply# 5   11/30/2019 at 06:03 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052755 , Reply# 6   11/30/2019 at 08:13 (1,608 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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I was shopping with a friend a few days ago at a high end appliance store here on the Cape... When you really look at the prices side by side... If you are going to spend $800-1,000 for a machine, look at Miele. Yes, their service is expensive but the machines are great. You barely can hear them when they are on.
Personally, noise is not a factor for me. I just want the machine to last and perform. Everyone has their choice. I will when ready more than likely go with Maytag. |
Post# 1052759 , Reply# 8   11/30/2019 at 09:28 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052761 , Reply# 9   11/30/2019 at 09:38 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052763 , Reply# 10   11/30/2019 at 10:02 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052764 , Reply# 11   11/30/2019 at 10:06 (1,608 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Chet, I have a Kenmore Elite that's 4 years old. It's produced by KitchenAid. It has what KitchenAid refers to as the Clean Water Wash System that's on the KA model you are looking at. In fact, that was the very first KA model to offer the new self-cleaning filter system. I believe this model came out Spring 2015. I have hard water and had to have the whole pump module replaced just under the 2 year mark. Since then I run Lemi-Shine dishwasher cleaner through it about once every 30 loads and use Lemi-Shine detergent booster in the wash dispenser along with my Cascade Platinum pod. Overall I've been pleased with its performance. The Lemi-Shine products I use was suggested by the repairman who replaced the pump module 2 years ago.
I'd been using Affresh that was useless in my hard water.
Because I'm dealing with hard water, I'm actually considering one of the Bosch Benchmark models with the integral water softener and CrystalDry feature.
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Post# 1052766 , Reply# 13   11/30/2019 at 10:49 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052767 , Reply# 14   11/30/2019 at 10:54 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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I'm curious what John (Combo52) thinks of these Kitchen-Aids. If I lived nearby I would pay his show room a visit and ask him for guidance.
I like the Maytag but three things happened: 1) The lower rack wheels fell off about 3 years after I got it. 2) About one year 4 months the ball bearing started coming out of the satin glide rack rails. 3) Made the mistake of taking the sump filter apart (bent it) thinking I could get the bearings out which are making a buzzing noise in the motor. I really, really like my current Maytag but very unhappy about how both racks failed the way they did. |
Post# 1052768 , Reply# 15   11/30/2019 at 11:00 (1,608 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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The way it is now it no longer cleans. I find food particles on the dishes and poor wash ability. The cover does not seat well at all.
Top rack is no longer usable as I just zip tied the rails because the rail (and the rack) is on the verge of falling. It rains ball bearings when moved. I will give Maytag credit that the bearing have not damaged the wash pump or drain pump, there are some one and a half dozen down there lol. |
Post# 1052772 , Reply# 16   11/30/2019 at 12:32 (1,607 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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My personal preference is for a DW that doesn't have an exposed heating element. These can melt plastic items on the lower rack. With a Euro design like Bosch or Miele, the heating element is hidden in the sump area, out of sight. It heats the water instead of melting the items in the lower rack. Yes, without a fan you may find a little water on items. That's what clean dish towels are for. No biggie for me. I'd rather sop up a little water with a clean towel than have hard water mineral deposits.
Just my personal preference.
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Post# 1052835 , Reply# 20   12/1/2019 at 10:14 (1,607 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
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Post# 1052839 , Reply# 21   12/1/2019 at 10:46 (1,607 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Both the KA and MT have similar sized motors and neither has a filter that has to be cleaned, however I still prefer the simpler MT pump as it does not have the silly diverter that alternates water flow to the upper or lower wash arm, I would rather have a DW washing everywhere all the time.
John L. |
Post# 1052841 , Reply# 22   12/1/2019 at 10:50 (1,607 days old) by NeptuneGuy27 (Baltimore,MD)   |   | |
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Here is an animation I found on the Whirlpool training site that shows how the Clean Water Wash system works. They also have a few other videos on there which are insightful. CLICK HERE TO GO TO NeptuneGuy27's LINK |
Post# 1052844 , Reply# 23   12/1/2019 at 11:45 (1,606 days old) by IowaBear (Cedar Rapids, IA)   |   | |
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Interesting, thanks for the link. So the theory of operation is that strategically placed stationary "blades" or "wings" around the filter keep the debris in suspension, not allowing it to stick to the filter so it gets flushed away.
I wondered if it was some complicated design prone to repair but it doesn't look like it.
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Post# 1052855 , Reply# 24   12/1/2019 at 14:08 (1,606 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052856 , Reply# 25   12/1/2019 at 14:11 (1,606 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052857 , Reply# 26   12/1/2019 at 14:16 (1,606 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052858 , Reply# 27   12/1/2019 at 14:27 (1,606 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052862 , Reply# 28   12/1/2019 at 15:21 (1,606 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)   |   | |
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Its in it somewhere but I have never seen it...
However when its got to the drying stage it pops the door open and it stays there while the fan runs and when that stops you just open the door and that resets its opening mechanism for the next time. It does not get warm or moist on either side and its boxed in so it must work ok. |
Post# 1052944 , Reply# 29   12/2/2019 at 14:54 (1,605 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052974 , Reply# 31   12/2/2019 at 22:00 (1,605 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052978 , Reply# 33   12/2/2019 at 23:19 (1,605 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1052983 , Reply# 34   12/3/2019 at 00:57 (1,605 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1053002 , Reply# 35   12/3/2019 at 07:11 (1,605 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1053016 , Reply# 36   12/3/2019 at 10:23 (1,605 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)   |   | |
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Didn't the Maytag reverse racks have this type of filter? |
Post# 1053019 , Reply# 37   12/3/2019 at 10:27 (1,605 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1053099 , Reply# 38   12/3/2019 at 21:21 (1,604 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Got a call saying my model has been discontinued. This was given as a replacement:
www.lowes.com/pd/KitchenA... What do others think? Looks like the fan dry is through the side again? Or they just have an older model pictured? |
Post# 1053100 , Reply# 39   12/3/2019 at 21:46 (1,604 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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KDTM354DSS vs. KDTM354ESS. Display and software changes I noticed. The DSS was announced late 2013 or early 2014. The ESS was brought out spring/summer 2015.
I'm beginning to think KA is getting ready to refresh their line of dishwashers again. It's about time they do. This post was last edited 12/03/2019 at 22:21 |
Post# 1053125 , Reply# 40   12/4/2019 at 06:30 (1,604 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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In the video why do they have a different Wash Arm as opposed to the modified HydroSweep ?
They have a three arm thing with whirly things on the ends that squirt the water. In the still pic there is the "X" arm. I think it's time for a new Manufacturer of appliances to break away of the same old same old. Appliances are like New Music artist doing remakes of old classics that are and never will be the same. |
Post# 1053148 , Reply# 41   12/4/2019 at 13:22 (1,603 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1053150 , Reply# 42   12/4/2019 at 13:59 (1,603 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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I have heard that some people that have that alternating nonsense say the noise of the machine starting and stopping drives them nuts.
I think my friend's Miele alternates but you can't hear the darn thing running. Like John said I would rather have the whole machine washing at the same time as opposed to one rack at a time. |
Post# 1053162 , Reply# 43   12/4/2019 at 15:20 (1,603 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Thanks toploader, good point.
This seems to have the Whirlpool wash system. Is it a pre 2014 model? www.homedepot.com/p/Kitch... |
Post# 1053169 , Reply# 44   12/4/2019 at 17:39 (1,603 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)   |   | |
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Post# 1053172 , Reply# 45   12/4/2019 at 18:20 (1,603 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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What do others think? Stay with the KA or have me change to Maytag?
Also- just because I saw it- will this machine be ok with 60Hz? www.amazon.de/dp/B01LN1SV... |
Post# 1053173 , Reply# 46   12/4/2019 at 18:30 (1,603 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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Post# 1053177 , Reply# 47   12/4/2019 at 19:10 (1,603 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Does anyone know if this has ANY ball bearings in the rack guides? Looks like wheels for the rack itself:
www.maytag.com/kitchen/di... |
Post# 1053184 , Reply# 48   12/4/2019 at 20:50 (1,603 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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Post# 1053185 , Reply# 49   12/4/2019 at 21:13 (1,603 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Joshua, Maytag had a model MDB8989 on their site that's recently been removed. It didn't have a tiered upper rack and the 3rd rack was some sort of culinary rack--it had two sections that one of which could be removed to accommodate taller items in that part of the upper rack. I wish Whirlpool would offer that third rack design more often. 3rd racks get in my way putting in and kind of stacking things in the upper rack. I just have a feeling Whirlpool is getting ready to refresh/offer new models in KitchenAid and Maytag lines. They're over 5 years old since clean water wash system was introduced. Offered new pocket door design a year or so ago. |
Post# 1053186 , Reply# 50   12/4/2019 at 21:33 (1,603 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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If you ask me this is the new line:
www.maytag.com/kitchen/di... I see tons of Maytags on the HD and Lowes site not on the Maytag site many of which are "special buys" with a lower price. Also many of them have a side tube dry system where the new Maytags do not. I like the slopped upper rack, it lets me fit tall dishes in the bottom rack. I ditched the substitute KA and went with the Maytag for several reasons including the fact MDB7979SHZ seems to be a new model release. Never heard of the food disposer clogging up. In all honesty I could see more problems with the KA system. |
Post# 1053197 , Reply# 51   12/5/2019 at 02:03 (1,603 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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When menards went exclusive Whirlpool corp, we stopped pushing anything Whirlpool or related. We might sell 3 maytag dishwashers a year anymore. KitchenAid is less than 10.
We push Miele, Bosch, Cove and Beko. With having over 1500 work orders open for 6 service techs and our territory of 57 counties, we stopped pushing what needed service constantly. |
Post# 1053205 , Reply# 52   12/5/2019 at 06:50 (1,603 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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This talk of the clean wash water system made me wonder about how the Bosch does. Seems hubby does a lot of the unloading so I haven't really paid that much attention. In these pics you can see the food soil on the dishes and in the photo of the clean dishes I did my best to photograph the clear water sitting on top of the mason jar. It was hard to photograph but I guarantee that water looks crystal clear in person.
That's not too bad considering what they looked like at the start. I used the Heavy wash option with 1/2 of a Miele Tab in the main wash. Since I had the sudsing issue with the Cascade pods all my research led me to the Miele tabs and I have to say I am really impressed. I am cutting them in half because we have mechanically softened water and a full one is just too much soap. I have to say these Miele tabs clean like crazy. Even the inside of the dishwasher sparkles like it didn't before. They cost a little more but are worth it. Cutting them in half makes them really affordable for me. |
Post# 1053209 , Reply# 53   12/5/2019 at 07:22 (1,603 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Joshua, The chopper in a new WP built MT DW will NEVER clog at all in the life of the DW, if you want to be taken seriously as an appliance professional Please don't put crap like that on the internet.
DWs with alternating wash arms have a diverter valve, these often leak on the floor and cause an expensive repair just to save a little bit of noise, not worth it in my experience. I would rather have everything washing all the time.
The most common repair we are doing today on newer filter style DWs are service calls to remove broken glass which is blocking and jamming either the drain pumps or often in the case of Bosch DWs the main pump.
When the customer lifts the filter out to clean you often do not see little pieces of broken glass and it slips into the inlet for either the drain pump or main pump causing almost immediate problems.
While this could happen on models with a grinder we have not seen it yet because they are much better designed to keep large hard objects out of the pumps.
John L.
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Post# 1053210 , Reply# 54   12/5/2019 at 07:23 (1,603 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Post# 1053217 , Reply# 55   12/5/2019 at 09:02 (1,603 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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I guess i better find the pictures of the chopper assemblies clogged with celery strands, stickers, bits of plastic wrap, broken ceramic, twist ties and corn kernels we've sent to the tech line proving that the choppers clog.
And why anyone would want a wash system that recirculates the food particles through the wash system is beyond me. Next you'll tell me the wash arms don't clog up with debris. Wait, i dont care if im taken seriously. I am so ready to be out of this field. Im tired of having to prove my self to people like you and customers that think they know everything because they read it on the internet. And before you spout your bs about how long you've been doing this, i work for a company that is 5th generation in ownership, and second generation in service techs. They've been in business for 85 years, the current service manager started working there when he was 16, he started working for his dad (who started here when they originally opened) when his dad was the service manager. He's been there 44 years just on his own. Sit there and tell me what to post. Ha. This post was last edited 12/05/2019 at 14:09 |
Post# 1053234 , Reply# 57   12/5/2019 at 14:23 (1,602 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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I have seen dishwashers with diverter valves leak. Most of them American brands. I don't know that I've seen a European diverter based dishwasher leak.
I have yet to see a dishwasher with a slide shutter on the pump leak because the diversion is done IN the pump housing and not as a separate unit. We have had some Miele motors jam, but that was from hard water buildup, too much detergent and lack of use. Soaking in heated white vinegar freed the motors. The bulk of our issues with Miele dishwashers have been on the classic series, the heater elements reacted with something in the water up here and corroded. They have since changed vendors and materials. Two motors have been jammed from debris and both were customer mis-use. One was in a drug rehab facility where someone pulled the filter assembly out and started the dishwasher, a piece of saran wrap wrapped around the impeller and seized the motor. The other, the customer dumped a package of flax seeds in the dishwasher on accident (the door was partially opened and they knocked the container over on the counter and it all landed in the dishwasher), when they pulled the filter out, the filter was so full it ran over and seeds dropped into the sump and jammed the motor. We used the motor fork, turned it the opposite direction and unclogged the motor after vacuuming it out. One dishwasher showed up brand new with a seized motor. The only leaks we've had on Bosch dishwashers were from the seams/welds of the tubs. I can think of 8 in the last 3 years. I have rarely had an issue with the diverter assembly or the sump. As far as jammed motors, I am not recalling hearing of any. Our service calls are mainly Whirlpool-made dishwashers, GE and Samsungs. We have far more floor leak issues from Whirlpool-made dishwashers than any of the other brands combined. As far as I know, Whrilpool-made dishwashers are the only ones on the market that don't have some form of flood protection in any of their lineups. If I recall correctly, Jenn-Air had BSH making their dishwashers for the longest time... |
Post# 1053248 , Reply# 58   12/5/2019 at 17:19 (1,602 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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I don't want to jump into any discourse. I do however want to point out one misconception about dishwashers with the disposal blade versus a manual filter: all "self-cleaning" chopper equipped dishwashers *still* filter the water. At least, this is true for any Whirlpool built machine since at least the mid 90's. The PowerClean platform is touted by many to still be one of the best dishwashers to have graced the planet, and it also fully filters the wash water as well, because of the mesh accumulator chamber under the wash arm. The soil is spun out with centrifugal force and some of the water pressure is directed straight into that filter chamber through a small passage inside the impeller chamber, much the same way a Dyson cyclonic vacuum spins the dirt out of the air inside the cones. This is also true for the Voyager and now the new Maytag platform that derives from the GlobalWash design of the current manual-filter WPs, KitchenAids, and Kenmores. The current Maytag's accumulator is housed under the wash arm above the spot the manual filter would normally sit, and in all mentioned machines, the drain pump pulls straight from that chamber, pulling the soil out.
I will agree that if care is not taken to avoid letting fibrous foods like celery, or labels/stickers and toothpicks fall in, the screen behind the blade will get clogged. Absolutely. But I will also say that it almost takes deliberate negligence to get to that point. The pic I posted is pretty extreme, I've never seen one like this on a Voyager. But the Kenmore Elite-Voyager machine my grandparent's had, before I gave them the slightly famous-to-this-site WP 920 model, had a fair amount of crud around the outer edges of that screen. Nothing that affected performance, but after around five years of use, that was the result. If you do choose/have chosen the Maytag machine, I don't think you'll have a bit of problem so long as common sense is used loading it. As with most things during the internet era, if there were wide spread problems with them after all these years with this design, you'd have heard about it, and they would have absolutely abandoned and shifted the Maytags to the manual filter design by now and wouldn't be selling them like they do. |
Post# 1053252 , Reply# 59   12/5/2019 at 17:30 (1,602 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)   |   | |
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Also, in defense of the diverter-equipped models, that 920 has been going strong since the end of 2015, and now it's lived since August 2018 at my grandparents with fairly hard well water. Granddad has been instructed to use nothing but Cascade Platinum or Finish Quantum and to never let that rinse aid compartment run dry. From what I've gathered, hard water, cheap detergents, lack of rinse aid, and prewashing dishes are all factors that cause the diverter shaft to etch and start leaking.
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Post# 1053281 , Reply# 60   12/5/2019 at 21:38 (1,602 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Andrew, Thanks for your thoughtful post.
I am not sure where you got the picture of the clogged screen, and I have seen many exactly like that myself. That is a good picture of a grinder with a broken drive, it will NEVER look like that in normal use no matter how much stuff goes into the machine, the screen ONLY can clog with stuff if the blade is not turning. Thanks Joshua for the examples of what I am talking about, DWs with removable filters cause a lot of service calls because people can remove the filter and things either slip by into pump openings and or people do not get the filter reinstalled correctly and then the wash arms quickly clog. WP built DWs with their heavy duty grinders almost never get anything stuck in their wash arms because particles can not past the grinding plate large enough to clog the wash arms. John L. |
Post# 1053293 , Reply# 61   12/6/2019 at 01:37 (1,602 days old) by chetlaham (United States)   |   | |
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Post# 1053354 , Reply# 62   12/6/2019 at 16:52 (1,601 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)   |   | |
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