Thread Number: 82223  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Miele G7100SCi
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Post# 1062265   3/4/2020 at 11:29 (1,485 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Not even 550€ for NIB machine like that - who could leave that offer sitting around if you were needing a DW anyways since you were moving?




So, I had to move (long story) (coming soon to a forum near you) and needed a DW.
Was thinking freestanding as that would have been cheaper on the kitchen furniture side of things.
Was looking at Bauknecht for about 500€.

And then this happend:
We had an offer at work that was half off of the MSRP for certain integrated appliances.
And somebody at headquarters must have gotten wrong directions - or they wanted to rid old high price stock.

So, they half priced this Miele DW. Plus my employee discount, I got it for under 550€.



Since I am currently living alone and only moved in like not even 2 weeks ago, I didn't do much with it yet.



Loading is interesting, still getting used to the upper rack. Spacing the lower rack with pots and stuff is still a learing curve.
But plates take up nearly no space in there.
So it does have capacity.

AutoOpen is working like charme.

I am currently using Finish liquid I got for cheap in bulk.
Horrible detergent.
So I activated the Extra Clean and Extra Dry options.


They moved the filter to the center around the spray arm, stream lined the run off surfaces, cut away the metal top spray arms, removed EVERY downward facing hole on the middle spray arm, moved the water feed tubes for the spray arms to the inside of the tank, split them up (they are 2 seperate spray zones from what I can tell now, but I might be wrong).



And they added their EcoPower technology.

So what exactly is EcoPower technology?

It's Electroluxes impuls washing technology!
Yeah, they just copied that.
On the Eco cycle I noticed it during the main wash after the heating. Low washing with high pulses and some cavitation towards the end of those high pressure pulses.
They however extended that to pulsed intermediate rinsing. I do assume they use these on Eco as well, though I haven't confirmed that yet.
But on low load low soil Auto cycles, the DW does do a complete drain - fill - drain for the interim rinse, however the interim rinse is 3 second ish pulses with 10 second or so pauses in between for like 5-10 min.
Pump does cavitate towards the end of the pulses.

Maybe the pulses are pump sensed (cavitation -> lower rpm).



As I said, ran maybe 5 loads so far.

More as I learn!





Post# 1062268 , Reply# 1   3/4/2020 at 11:36 (1,485 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        



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Post# 1062337 , Reply# 2   3/5/2020 at 06:32 (1,485 days old) by toploader55 (Massachusetts Sand Bar, Cape Cod)        

toploader55's profile picture
Handsome looking Machine

Post# 1062730 , Reply# 3   3/9/2020 at 15:25 (1,480 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Just a load



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Post# 1062731 , Reply# 4   3/9/2020 at 15:34 (1,480 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
A couple minutes into the main wash



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Post# 1062734 , Reply# 5   3/9/2020 at 16:18 (1,480 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Heating done

The pump stops for detergent dispensing, then starts backs up again and a couple seconds later the heater switches back in.
Heating takes place at a constant medium-low pump speed.

This time it added 10min before heating.

Once heating finishes, pulsed washing begins.
Main speed is something medium with short pulses into a high speed.
Timing is like 2sec medium 2sec high.


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Post# 1065873 , Reply# 6   4/4/2020 at 11:30 (1,454 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
A few weeks in

So, a review:

TL;DR:
For what I paid for this machine (on par with a BSH machine with Zeolith) I really can't complain.
If I had paid original price for it, I would be somewhat bummed. It's not bad, but IMO not worth 1100€.
Unless you just want a DW that runs and runs and that you do not worry about, that you do not challenge and that dosen't have to perform exceptional, buy the cheapest Miele with AutoOpen you can find and buy the 10 year warranty.
Otherwise, look for something else.






What is there to say about a DW?


Loading: Well, it is a Miele.
Maybe it is just me living alone with more pans to handle, but I feel like I can't load quite as much in it as in a Bosch.
The upper rack might have a little more headspace than a BSH machine with cuttlery drawer and being abled to slant the upper rack is really nice. The lower rack appears to have more usable height for each setting aswell.
But the cup etagers on the upper rack right side intrude a lot into the rack. Am thinking of removing mine tbh.
The MultiComfort area is a cool idea, but I don't think it gives significantly more space than other setups.
The cutlery drawer is a must have on this design of DW I think and it is really good, probably niceer than any other.

Cycles: Lots of options, everything makes sense. Nothing special.

Operation in general: Nice and quiet. Pretty damn efficent. Highest usage I cought reported was 18l when it regenerated the water softner on a full load on Auto. Never more than 1.4kWh.

Results:
Washing is just what you expect. If you load it correctly, everything gets immaculatly clean.
Even the Eco cycle is suprisingly usabel, probably more capable than a BSH one though using less.
Part of that is probably the ultra efficently designed pump and sump. They packed the optical sensor and then main NTC into the sump and routed the water feed for the lower spray arm right through the center of the filter AND for the upper spray arms along the side of the sump effectivley reducing the amount of water needed per fill by probably like 0.15gal or so. The pump is right beside the sump and routs the water down through the diverter I would guess.
Drying is a thing. I would say it is certainly better than a normal DW with static drying. If you run the DW over night or through the day and only unload it like a couple of hours after the cycle finishes it certainly is pretty good.




But here comes the big thing that bugs me.

You see, it has been kind of a thing that was given that plastics stay damp.
That there is water in the cups.

And this Miele is pretty good with things.
You don't burn your fingers when you unload it even right after the cycle is done.
A couple of hours after the cycle is done plastics are mostly dry. So it is fine.

But BSHs Zeolith drying (CrystalDry I think it is called in the US) is just so much better.
It is just as efficent.
It is faster (drying stages here last 50min regulary, on BSH they were often half that).
It dries better - without having to wait hours after the cycle finished.
Plastics are just basicly completly dry right from the getgo.
Cups and such are way drier.

The cycles on these machines are just so slow.
Don't get me wrong, the DW dosen't waste any time. Washes, rinses and drying are as long as they have to be.
But gee 3h on the regular are just more than needed if I can have the same results WITH THE SAME EFFICENCY in 2/3 that.
The Eco might be anothing thing as BSHs A+++ -10% Eco cycle is 3:45h and here it is just shy of 4h in day to day use.

That's another thing: Our BSH machine barely ever ran full time sensor washes. They are estimated with 2:30h on those Bosch machines but even with pretty crammed loads it would often run just about 2h.
Here as soon as it is a full load it will run a full Auto cycle that just takes 3h.
Yes, the BSH 2h and Miele 3h cycle are basicly the same cycle using the same amount of water and energy with a major difference being the BSH having the ability to extend the main wash another 20min and adding another interim rinse.
But that means the Bosch could step the performance up another level.


Durability wise I am somewhat torn though.
BSH machines have some questionable repairability choices like heater, pumpm AND NTC being one (though fairly cheap to replace) unit.
Further the Zeolith system adds some comlexity.
And none of that seems particulary durable (they seem to last in the 6-8 year range).

But Mieles are known to "only" last like 10 or so years as well.
Does that really make them worth while?
Especially at the astronomical prices of parts.




So yeah.

The machine is by no means bad.
It is certainly far better built than anything.
It performs well enough.

But I wouldn't say it is miles ahead and worth 1100€ regular price.

If you just want a well performing DW, buy the cheapest BSH machine with Zeolith/CrystalDry you can find that has a cuttlery drawer.
These are about 600€ over here, so a little over half, wash just as great, dry far better and are way faster while being basicly just as efficent.



If you got any question feel free to ask.


Post# 1065921 , Reply# 7   4/4/2020 at 18:11 (1,454 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks for your review Henrik. I was wondering how the 7xxx series worked. I have a 6987 since the USA has not moved to the 7 series yet. The drying on it takes about 30 minutes and it does a good job with plastics too.

How does you machine handle prewashes? Does it do them or skip them and does it drain the water between the prewash and main wash?


Post# 1065997 , Reply# 8   4/5/2020 at 05:33 (1,454 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

On the EU only one cycle is a true sensor guided cycle, the "Auto" cycle.

The max the machine does is 1 prewash from what I can gather.
Every prewash so far has been cold except for on the intensive cycle where it was hand warm maybe.
On the Auto cycle so far it either does a full drain sequence (which on this machine is drain with pump running, then just drain, then a 30sec pause for the water to drip from dishes, then drain again) or just continues, so no partial drains so far.

Cycles with a fixed prewash are Intensive, Delicate and Normal.
Auto is sensor guided, so maybe maybe not.
Eco, QuickPowerWash (QuickIntenseWash for you over there) and Silent don't prewash at all, though Eco spends like 30min before dispensing detergent.


Post# 1066098 , Reply# 9   4/5/2020 at 17:55 (1,453 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks, Henrik

Over here the Normal program is our Eco and the main wash temperature varies between 117F and 140F. The final rinse is 140F. The Sensor program is your Auto and varies the number of prewashes, main wash length, and the interim rinses. The wash temperature is between 113F and 140F, the Final rinse is 140F-160F.

So far the DW has changed the prewash water for the pots and pans/heavy soil program, but not for the Sensor or Normal program. It has used 3.2 gallons for the sensor program and 3.8 for the pots and pans program. It seems to spray for between 3 and 12 minutes without detergent and calls that the prewash, then it moves to the wash without changing the water. It has done 3 rinses though.

I think it has the same drying system as yours. Most of the time it opens the door with 9 minutes left, but last Friday it opened the door with 15 minutes left. The drying period seems to be 30 minutes, but even plastics are dry when it's' finish.

This machine is a series older than yours so I guess it is going to act differently than yours. What does the NTC look like and is that the thing that is supposed to measure the outside temperature for the drying system? Seems like that would be outside the machine. My other Miele had a thick short stainless steel rod in the sump but I don't see that in this one. What does the optical sensor look like, is it visible in the sump? I might have other questions for you later. Thanks a lot.


Post# 1066657 , Reply# 10   4/9/2020 at 16:01 (1,449 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

They said for their G5000 or G6000 series (can't remember which) in the service manual that they used the main wash thermistor in the sump to sense room temp at the beginning of the cycle.
Reasoning was that the sump was reasonably close to room temperature, that the room temp wouldn't fluctuate much over the 2h or so window the DW was running (at least not towards the worse/hotter side) and that you didn't need another sensor to measure that way cutting cost, complexity and failure rate.

Miele actually hold/held a patent for a sensor based rinsing system on their washers that did only use the main NTC.
Not sure if that ever got implemented, but Miele loved using one thing for multiple purposes.


Picture attached you can see the ootical sensor.
I appear to be mistaken as there is no longer an exposed NTC in the sump.
The ootical sensor is in the 7 o'clock position in this picture, which is just left of the 6 o'clock postion viewed from the front of the machine.


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Post# 1066726 , Reply# 11   4/10/2020 at 05:51 (1,449 days old) by logixx (Germany)        
Not sure if that ever got implemented

logixx's profile picture





Post# 1066775 , Reply# 12   4/10/2020 at 14:26 (1,448 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)        
Pretty sure...

... that this got implemented. Washing towels (very absorbing) vs. same amount in kg of sheets (less absorbing), as far as I could observe, Miele (W5000 or 3000) would use a different amount of water. However, not that impressed with rinsing performance on Mieles before W1 line on cotton cycle. Always felt that V-Zug Unimatic and above Adora SL, as well as BSH, had a better rinsing performance thanks to the turbidity sensors or just 3 rinses and one more extraction.
@henene, after experimenting with activating and inactivating extra clean option on my Miele dishwasher, I had finally to admit to myself, that I better leave it activated for best cleaning performance. Have you activated the option at yours? What detergent do you guys from Germany use to get best results on stainless steel pots and pans, somehow they do not get as clean with AutoDos-Powder or maybe it’s because I bought a new set of pots. Would need always to pretreat them in order to get rid of limescale. .
Just testing a V-Zug Adora SL with SteamFinish, that I‘m going to resell, what an amazing function this SteamFinish. Cycle times are max. 1h25min on Auto, 45min on DailyIntense (with pre rinse), 1h30min on Intense and 19min on Sprint.


Post# 1066777 , Reply# 13   4/10/2020 at 14:41 (1,448 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        
Schulthess

logixx's profile picture
How does Steam Finish work? I suppose there's no steam generator?

Post# 1066790 , Reply# 14   4/10/2020 at 15:41 (1,448 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)        
SteamFinish

Depending on the cycle selected it adds 18 to 25 minutes.
It will normally dispense the rinse aid in the final rinse (maybe a bit less, as well there is automatic detection of rinse aid needed, so you do not ned to set any level of rinse aid, but there is also option to adjust). When the final rinse is done, it will heat up the water from the last rinse, thereby the heat element will be activated in intervals together with the circulation pump at a very slow speed just to mix the water through the lower spray arm, while not spraying the dishes. Water gets very hot but certainly not boiling hot, however this is enough to steam up the cabinet and actually heat the dishes inside. The result is very dry dishes (even in the first generation of Adoras with steam function but without automatic door opening) and shorter drying cycle. Not sure if there are really less residues of detergent etc. as they state in their advertisement, since still rinse aid is being used. Also they say somewhere, that rinse aid would not be needed, however with empty salt container you cannot activate steam finish, just to protect from limescale or not to heat up water that has mineral leftovers / „Kalk“ as we would say.


Post# 1066796 , Reply# 15   4/10/2020 at 16:23 (1,448 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Danke :)

Post# 1067357 , Reply# 16   4/14/2020 at 16:42 (1,444 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks for the picture of the sump Henrik. I misspoke when I said my model will only do 1 prewash. I had the short option enabled and thus 1 prewash. It will do up to 2 prewashes on Automatic and always do 2 prewashes on Pots and Pans(intensive). When the quick option is enabled you get 1 prewash.

Our Eco program that is named Normal is also sensor controlled so it might or might not skip the prewash and go directly into the wash.

Since your optical sensor is in the sump does the machine stop to sense the soil in the water or does it keep on going and sense while it is spraying?


Post# 1067358 , Reply# 17   4/14/2020 at 16:44 (1,444 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
It does pause

Might be for sensing - quite possibly so - but maybe twice for a few seconds in the prewash and once in the post wash rinse.

Post# 1067522 , Reply# 18   4/15/2020 at 16:30 (1,443 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Thanks, Henrik. I was wondering because mine doesn't seem to do any pauses, so I haven't figured out how it is sensing the soil unless it is by looking at the water as it runs by in the sump. I know it is sensing though because it does vary the number of after rinses and the length of prewashes and also the first interim rinse. Some times the first rinse is 9 minutes other times it is 17, other times it is 12 and other times it adds a second one. Mine is of the older 6xxx series design so I was wondering how the 7xxx series works.

Post# 1067576 , Reply# 19   4/16/2020 at 07:37 (1,443 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

The 6000 series has the flow sensor somewhere in the water path, either somewhere along the feed tube for the upper rack or around the pump.



The optical sensor listed for the 6300SCI over here looks basicly the same.
I think I red sonewhere for some early series that it was in the water path to the upper rack and had a bypass of different width to reduce bubbles in the water from suds etc for a more accurate reading.
I guess the same goes for pausing.


Post# 1067637 , Reply# 20   4/16/2020 at 15:11 (1,442 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Yes, I had the earlier model with the sensor on the right upper side, no pausing for that one either. I just thought that with this 6xxx one, with the sensor in the sump there might be pausing during the spray, but there is not.

Post# 1067639 , Reply# 21   4/16/2020 at 15:14 (1,442 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Correction from my post above. This is a 69XX model and it does have the same optical sensor in the sump that you have, but no pausing the spray.

Post# 1069736 , Reply# 22   4/28/2020 at 16:48 (1,430 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
6987 sump

For comparison, I took a pic of the sump on my 69XX model which is one series below yours. I don't think this one has the NTC in the sump either, so I don't know where it is, perhaps near the pump?

The image got slightly rotated to the side during the upload. The pump intake is at the 3 o'clock position(actually at the 12 o'clock position) the drain pump intake is seen at 11 o'clock, I guess the optical sensor is 10, although there are three prongs there so one might be the NTC. I am not sure about the hole in the 7 position since the fresh water and the water from the heat exchanger come up from the sump it might be for those.


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Post# 1069769 , Reply# 23   4/28/2020 at 20:48 (1,430 days old) by richnz (New Zealand)        
They have combined

The turbidity sensor with the NTC.

Post# 1069832 , Reply# 24   4/29/2020 at 05:37 (1,430 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

Wasn't there a turbidity sensor which used two different coloured LEDs (e.g. a red and a green) to get a more accurate reading? I'm thinking it was the likes of Bosch Siemens, but can't be sure.

Post# 1069863 , Reply# 25   4/29/2020 at 10:47 (1,429 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Getting less and less impressed

When I bought this DW I had the choice between a G6000 and a G7000 for basicly the same price.
Should have taken the G6000.


I had a kind of stir-fry with chicken, spinach, tomato and a curry paste yesterday evening.

Nothing major, just a lot of soiling.




Ran the load on Auto with no options since nothing was burned or dried on much.

Came back to find a more or less clean load.

But my racks are tinged green.

No joke, a verry fine mint green.

The plastics are fine. The handle of one pan has taken up the same color.
But the plastics in the DW are fine.
The coated racks are tinged green.


I just started a machine clean cycle with a machine cleaner and by god I hope for Miele that that helps.



Doesn't show up well on the pics, but I took some anyway...


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Post# 1069884 , Reply# 26   4/29/2020 at 13:13 (1,429 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Nope, still green

Running again now with the bit of bleach I have left.

Not sure if this is something to call Miele about.
I mean, it's just cosmetic, but honestly, on a 1000+€ DW after 2 months?

Honestly kinda annoyed.


Post# 1069936 , Reply# 27   4/29/2020 at 18:48 (1,429 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Bleaching helped.

Not gonna use the liquid Finish junk anymore except for prewashes.


Post# 1070264 , Reply# 28   5/1/2020 at 10:02 (1,427 days old) by bewitched (Italy)        

It happens to me too but with red as I usually wash dishes with tomato sauce residues. It doesn't affect the wash, still perfect as usual, it's just fun to see some things colored in a faint pink. Racks don't get that color, just the dispensers lids , the wheels of racks and the third rack. They at Miele explained that this is absolutely normal and if it happens to annoy me to just run a wash with a dishwasher care product. I don't care the least but I was just curious. They use plastics sensitive to certain food color. They watch for materials to be as recyclable as possibile rather than be tomato or spinach color proof. By the way on the user manual it is clearly stated that this can happen.

Post# 1070271 , Reply# 29   5/1/2020 at 10:46 (1,427 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
The root of all evil is I think the dishwasher tabs. I think they don't contain enough detergent to get a load (and the inside of the dishwasher) really clean. When I use a tab on a dirty load I add some powder, just put it on the door so it is used in the pre-rinse. It really makes a difference, even though the pre-rinse is cold. The dishes are much cleaner than ever before.

Post# 1070272 , Reply# 30   5/1/2020 at 10:48 (1,427 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
The tomato pink racks and plastics are the same in my Miele

ozzie908's profile picture
The dishwasher still cleans everything but the plastic comes out hint of pink and the cutlery rack collects the most colour, However when it gets to a point its bugging me I pop a couple of steriliser tablets in the machine during the prewash and it gets it all off. At around £5 a tub of 100 its not exactly expensive to do either ...

Austin


Post# 1070492 , Reply# 31   5/2/2020 at 16:35 (1,426 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Discolorization is from the curry paste. One hit of that will turn things. Probably combined with an ingredient in the dye in the detergent caused the green tint.


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