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Thread Number: 82669
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Disappearing Cotton Eco Cycles? |
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| Post# 1067926 4/18/2020 at 07:37 (1,462 days old) by l86810 (Southend, UK) | ||
Hey Guys
Hope you're all staying safe and well. I've noticed a couple of new washers (like released in the last month or so) which don't contain a Cotton Eco cycle, an Eco option or a 40 E / 60 E option as part of the temperature section. Also none of those triangle symbols everywhere on the control panel !! Has the EU directive changed on these cycles now? One is Miele and one is Bosch, both however have a Eco 40/60 cycle. Miele WEA025 Bosch WAU28PH9GB | ||
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| Post# 1067929 , Reply# 1 4/18/2020 at 08:30 (1,462 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan) | ||
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Normal cycle is eco on most newer washers/dryers here. Load sensing adapts the temp., time, and water use. Most here are more into vintage, and not concerned with eco in much of anything. | ||
| Post# 1067948 , Reply# 3 4/18/2020 at 12:39 (1,462 days old) by l86810 (Southend, UK) | ||
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Thanks Henrik.
No other programme may have in its name the term ‘eco’;
— motor and motor brushes; — transmission between motor and drum; — pumps; — shock absorbers and springs; — washing drum, drum spider and related ball bearings (separately or bundled); — heaters and heating elements, including heat pumps (separately or bundled); — piping and related equipment including all hoses, valves, filters and aquastops (separately or bundled); — printed circuit boards; — electronic displays; — pressure switches; — thermostats and sensors; — software and firmware including reset software; CLICK HERE TO GO TO l86810's LINK | ||
| Post# 1067950 , Reply# 4 4/18/2020 at 12:50 (1,462 days old) by l86810 (Southend, UK) | ||
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They seem to be aware of some of the faults with the previous legislation, i.e. removing all the messy symbols from the display panel, applying a limit to the maximum duration of the eco cycle (which looks like its going to affect most manufacturers) and also asking them to declare the actual washing temperature reached during various cycles.
The document also refers to measuring Rinsing Efficiency multiple times, so looks like they could be monitoring that now, since some manufacturers are essentially destroying the rinse cycle to save on water. (My old LG did 1 rinse, with water lower than the wash water level - on the Eco cycle, not that I used it however)
The document also referred to multi drum and heat pump enabled machines, so they seem to be considering future models.
Finally they also seem to be challenging manufacturers to make sure their products last a long time and can be repaired. It wasn't documented in that particular legislation but a few places seemed to refer to manufacturers being made to provide much longer guarantees and warrantees on their products (5 year min) to ensure products were of sufficient quality to prevent them going to landfill after a couple of years.
Henrik - the manual for that Bosch model is up on the UK site... I've attached a link to the manual for a different model, because if you skip to page 53, the table of data the EU has asked to be supplied moving forward is there, and the actual temperatures reached on certain cycles is quite interesting.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO l86810's LINK This post was last edited 04/18/2020 at 16:28 | ||
Post# 1067974 , Reply# 5 4/18/2020 at 16:52 (1,462 days old) by henene4  (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Oh wow This actually looks... Decent? Like, EVERYTHING the energy label kind of screwed up on is better now? I'm somewhat scared, somewhat looking forward and somewhat questioning as to how this is gonna end up now. | ||
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Post# 1068186 , Reply# 6 4/19/2020 at 17:23 (1,461 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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There is a new one for the dishwashers as well, but there changes are less dramatic, mostly more stringent ratings. Fridges are rerated as well. Somehow dryers aren't? *shrugg* | ||
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Post# 1068459 , Reply# 9 4/21/2020 at 07:41 (1,459 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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IFA | ||
| Post# 1068527 , Reply# 10 4/21/2020 at 16:35 (1,459 days old) by l86810 (Southend, UK) | ||
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Yeah will be interesting to see how various brands change things up to accommodate this.
If IFA doesn't go ahead, hopefully we'll still get some press releases or YouTube vids from the brands in September.
Mat, can I ask how you know the new Bosch stuff is coming? Thats not a challenge, I just wondered if there's somewhere I can get that information from, (I like keeping up to date with the new stuff), or are you just well connected? lol
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| Post# 1070316 , Reply# 12 5/1/2020 at 17:54 (1,449 days old) by miele4life (UK ) | ||
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the lower-end integrated BSH washing machines have been updated and now they no longer feature a boilwash, there's a Hygiene 60C in its place, there's going to be a lot of mouldy door seals now! here's a link to the Bosch version. :o CLICK HERE TO GO TO miele4life's LINK | ||
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Post# 1070408 , Reply# 13 5/2/2020 at 04:11 (1,448 days old) by Joe_in_philly (Philadelphia, PA, USA) |
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Post# 1070413 , Reply# 14 5/2/2020 at 05:31 (1,448 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Not really a first Indesits Moon only had a 60C cycle as well. Limited spaces on the dial means something had to go. And since so few use a boilwash... That machine would be a no-go for me anyways. No extra rinse option, just SpeedPerfect. | ||
| Post# 1070657 , Reply# 15 5/3/2020 at 17:18 (1,447 days old) by liamy1 (-) | ||
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Stupid BSH. It's as if they've forgotten the carnage Indesit Moon models caused. | ||
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Post# 1070750 , Reply# 16 5/4/2020 at 06:02 (1,446 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1070762 , Reply# 17 5/4/2020 at 07:58 (1,446 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 1070805 , Reply# 19 5/4/2020 at 13:02 (1,446 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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Indesit Moon
Not only did they have awful dispensers but the only cycle you had a full 1400 spin was the cottons 60c wash everything else was 1000 only and no wonder it took so long to dry !!! There was a rinse and spin cycle which was in the fast wash setting and it detected soap suds instead of a wash it did a rinse....
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Post# 1075885 , Reply# 21 6/5/2020 at 13:41 (1,414 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 1075895 , Reply# 22 6/5/2020 at 14:29 (1,414 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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The EU literature does offer some cracy stuff yeah. I think that with some models it's down to capacity. Which model was it if you remember by any chance? | ||
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Post# 1075903 , Reply# 23 6/5/2020 at 15:34 (1,414 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 1075907 , Reply# 24 6/5/2020 at 15:54 (1,414 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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While I yet have to get down and dirty with the exact maths behind it I do think that its 13 place setting rating will probably be the main culprit. I don't think the new label includes other cycles as well besides Eco, but the lack of Zeolith drying bumps the other cycles efficencys down as well, but I do not know if that has any weight to that. | ||
| Post# 1076435 , Reply# 25 6/8/2020 at 23:57 (1,410 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia) | ||
New EU energy label dishwashers
Hi henene4,
I found this information regarding the changes in the energy label CLICK HERE TO GO TO mielerod69's LINK | ||
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Post# 1076477 , Reply# 27 6/9/2020 at 14:03 (1,410 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 1076532 , Reply# 28 6/10/2020 at 01:15 (1,409 days old) by warmsecondrinse (Fort Lee, NJ) |
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Got it. Thanks. | ||
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Post# 1076548 , Reply# 29 6/10/2020 at 04:19 (1,409 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Hygieny 60C cycle is often called Allergy cycle. They have in common that 60C is maintained during a full hour of the wash in order to kill dustmites.
Classic temperature selections in the past were 95, 60, 40 and 30 degrees C. 95 for whites, 60 for light colors, 40 for dark colors and 30 for delicates. During the energy crisis in the 70's a dedicated 60 degrees cycle for whites was developed to save energy. Those e-cycles were longer than the regular 60 degrees cycles. Some machines used a somewhat higher temperature, AEG's e-cycle was at 67 degrees C. | ||
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Post# 1076557 , Reply# 31 6/10/2020 at 07:16 (1,409 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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I may have been the only person in Europe to have Found the symbols useful. Perhaps because they served as a quick shorthand for me - this one means this set of steps by the washer, this one means that. They sure weren't popular with most of my friends and students, though. As to temperature and sanitation, Henrik is right about chemicals doing the job at lower temperatures.
The old rules still apply to hygiene, though - first remove the gross dirt, then go after the remainder to get rid of the microbes.
Here in the US, of course, using vintage washers, top drawer detergents, phosphates, 63°C warm water and chlorine bleach, we get our clothes quite satisfactorily clean. I don't see how anyone in the US gets clothes clean with the ice-cold two drops of water, filthy machines and barely able to do anything mechanically washers currently on offer. This may be why we have such strongly scented fabric 'softeners'. | ||
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Post# 1076581 , Reply# 33 6/10/2020 at 12:07 (1,409 days old) by panthera (Rocky Mountains) |
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Jim, Laundress has explained all those variables and how they must be exchanged, so I won't repeat what you and she so clearly explained. What is (finally) clear and shouldn't be a problem for anyone is that a second rinse does more to clean things than any other easy solution one can chose. Personally, I like clean clothes so it's vigorous agitation, 63°C warm water (145°F), top-notch enzymatic detergents and bleach with two thorough rinses. I just don't get why the simple laws of physics and their derivatives (raise the temperature 10°C and the reaction doubles in intensity) doesn't seem to make sense to Americans who do laundry.
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Post# 1076739 , Reply# 35 6/11/2020 at 17:12 (1,408 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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New Bosch manual (from the model in post #1).
View Full Size
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Post# 1076825 , Reply# 37 6/12/2020 at 13:00 (1,407 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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My 16 years old Miele only goes up to 55° C on Cottons 60° and unless it`s a very full load once the temperature is reached it does not reheat.
When it was new I complained here on AW.org that it doesn`t heat right and all I got from the group was disbelieve and sarcasm. This was years before Warentest and Which came onto the subject and washer manufacturers then responded with dedicated eco cycles in addition to the normal cycles. I also measured the 95° C cycle and surprise it is only 89° C, but I think the reason for this is not energy conservation but washer protection. Had the thermostat fail on an older AEG and the steam deformed the plastic detergent drawer so bad it had to be replaced. | ||
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Post# 1076861 , Reply# 39 6/12/2020 at 14:15 (1,407 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 1076936 , Reply# 41 6/13/2020 at 06:49 (1,406 days old) by Logixx (Germany) |
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Post# 1077028 , Reply# 43 6/14/2020 at 02:59 (1,405 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Hi Rolls
Find it interesting that the whites cycle was recommended for "articles that are white or color-fast to boiling" Always thought boiling colors was more of a German thing in the past. We even had the brand name "Indranthen" for boil-proof colors on many articles but it seems to have disappeared somewhere in the 70s. It was kind of a guarantee that for instance a black and white striped towel wouldn`t ruin the rest of you whites. Funny there is hardly any information on the web today, no way of telling if it was a BASF or Bayer brand. Can you tell me in what time frame these New Waves were build? | ||
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Post# 1077109 , Reply# 44 6/14/2020 at 19:41 (1,405 days old) by Washerguy02 (Manchester ) |
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Newwave time frame | ||
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Post# 1095101 , Reply# 45 10/29/2020 at 17:58 (1,268 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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" Bosch 'Night Wash Option' "
Bumping up old thread to explain "night wash".
Now have AEG/Electrolux toplader up and running can explain. AEG says these washers have "silent system", which is true, one can barely hear the thing running. Since my washer is MOL it doesn't offer "night wash", but manual explains... Night wash omits final spin and IIRC all intermittent as well (after rinses). When one awakes next day or whatever machine must be set to "spin" or "pump" to remove water/extract wash. It is the spinning which makes some noise on this washer, nothing like the older Miele, but never the less in often close confines of many European homes you'd hear this AEG washer spinning say if placed in a flat. Not spinning also eliminates any vibrations that might cause noise as well. Night settings are big for European dishwashers and washing machines as many areas offer cheaper electric rates over night (presumably because demand is less). On this side of pond with rapid roll out out of smart meters some electric companies are offering incentives for people to use power overnight IIRC. Still it's nothing like what one sees overseas. | ||
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Post# 1095103 , Reply# 47 10/29/2020 at 18:11 (1,268 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Energy Savings
While my older AEG OKO-Lavamat has "energy savings" cycle (washes for longer period using less water, but still reaches 140F), it does not have "40-60 mix".
Meanwhile the Electrolux/AEG toplader has the aforementioned "energy saving" cycle (and it does same thing going by consumption tables listed in manual), the 40-60 Mix is another beast entirely. Theory seems to be washing both man-made and natural fiber textiles in same wash where former would get 104F and other 140F. Machine is programmed with various parameters to heat water only to 104F, but deliver same results on cottons/linens as if they were washed at 140F. Cycle runs a whopping three and nearly one half hours (same as energy savings), so haven't bothered yet because just don't have that kind of time for one wash load. Interestingly AEG/Electrolux removed 50C/120F temp (my older OK0-Lavamat has it). That lower end of "hot" water range is perfectly fine for synthetics long as one uses cool down rinse cycles. This is something both my AEG washers will do if either "Sensitive" (Oko-Lavamat) or "Rinse Pluse" (AEG toplader) is selected. | ||
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Post# 1095122 , Reply# 48 10/29/2020 at 21:16 (1,268 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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We even had the brand name "Indranthen" for boil-pro
This may or may not be related but as one who sews/does needlework am up on vintage threads and yards long advertising as being "boil proof". Have various old spools of thread where labels clearly state such.
This would make sense as color began to to seep into not just woven fabrics, but threads used for sewing. Embroidery yard/threads long came in colors, and most were not color fast. Once in an dumb move hand washed a rather grimy bit of needlepoint. Thing survived a quick cold hand wash, but when hung up to dry could actually see colors draining from yarns/threads. Since well into 1980's much white and light color textiles were often boil washed, threads would have to be made stable (as in little to no shrinking), and fast colors to high temperature washing. By 1990's or so manufacturing processes had improved to point nearly all threads used for sewing were stable to high temperature washing, so "boil wash" bit was sort of redundant. Then you have fact since energy crisis of 1970's wash temperatures on both sides of Atlantic have gradually but steadily decreased. While boil washing was once a routine part of wash day, it isn't so much any longer. Hot water might be 140F or 120F nowadays with 104F or even 80F becoming far too common. Finally trade and consumer laws caught up with textile makers. They now had to provide care labels on things, and if consumer followed them to letter and something went wrong it fell on maker. Running colors on all sorts of textiles from garments to linens soon became not acceptable, and makers leery of facing liability stepped up pressure on yarn/thread makers to produce stable products. | ||
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