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Thread Number: 83948
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Spin Dryer |
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Post# 1082954 7/29/2020 at 14:54 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham  (United States) |
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Post# 1082960 , Reply# 1 7/29/2020 at 16:33 (1,356 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Many older h-axis washing machines final spin topped out at 800 to 1100 rpms. Earlier such machines had even lower spin speeds of around 400 or less. Needless to say this results in plenty of water being retained in wash resulting in long drying times.
American housewives and even laundries never bothered much about high levels of residual moisture in wash once tumble dryers came on scene. You simply baked all that water out of laundry. Given relatively inexpensive energy prices in USA no one was bothered, until Congress gave EPA a stick to beat people over head with. Energy prices for much of Europe tend to be more dear than USA, thus dryers aren't or weren't common. People just hung up wet wash on a horse, airier, outdoors, etc.. and waited for things to drip dry. Either using a dryer or line drying spinning out more water in a spin dryer results in faster drying times. It varies by type of item, but wash taken from my Miele (spun at 1100 rps) dries about ten percent or more faster when bunged in spin dryer for about three minutes. You notice difference especially with thick and absorbent things like bath linens, blankets, etc.... Less long winded answer is there are two main ways of removing moisture from wash; you can extract it out (spin drying) or evaporate (line or machine drying). The more you do of the former less of it is needed with latter, and in case of using energy to generate heat that means less of that is used as well. | ||
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Post# 1082963 , Reply# 2 7/29/2020 at 16:54 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1082964 , Reply# 3 7/29/2020 at 17:02 (1,356 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Will leave that for others to explain....
FWIU it simply came down to various things such as motors with enough power, suspension systems to handle forces generated, and or technology available at time. Keep in mind Bendix had tons of patents for H-axis washers locked up. If others wanted to make similar machines they either had to pay Bendix for use of their patents, or find ways around that didn't violate. Even early twin tub washers by Easy, General Electric, and others with separate spin dryer compartments didn't spin very fast. Their spin speeds were around 600 to 700 rpms, same as many automatic top loaders that would follow. Some of the rest you can glean from this article about hard mount commercial washers. bandctech.com/commercial-laundry... Also as always it helps to check the archives: www.automaticwasher.org/c... Here is a patent held by Alliance Laundry Systems for load imbalance and extraction speed selection: patents.google.com/patent/US2007... | ||
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Post# 1082967 , Reply# 4 7/29/2020 at 17:15 (1,356 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Here is a video from a "Wash In" showcasing a members new to him Philco-Bendix washer coupled with American Motex extractor.
You can see that the spin dryer removes quite a bit of water from finished wash. There was a time extractors by Bock and others were routinely found in American laundromats. Injuries including one that resulted in death of a young child (or was he just severely maimed?) resulted in Bock being sued to nearly out of existence. Some laundromats still offered extractors, but many took them out of service either by choice or by insurance mandate. | ||
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Post# 1082968 , Reply# 5 7/29/2020 at 17:28 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1082969 , Reply# 6 7/29/2020 at 17:36 (1,356 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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My newish AEG Lavamat is streets ahead of older (from 1990's) Miele washer in terms of spinning.
Lavamat like many modern front loaders isn't just controlled by "electronics", but entire washer pretty much runs off the motherboard. Everything from motor to drum movements can be controlled resulting in less unbalanced loads and smooth spinning. The Miele OTOH will make a few attempts at balancing a load before it spins, but when timer moves to "SPIN" that is what machine will do regardless. This even if it means banging, clanging and shifting out of place. Later Miele washers got an out of balance detection system that would stop machine in case of severe issues. | ||
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Post# 1082970 , Reply# 7 7/29/2020 at 17:53 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1082974 , Reply# 9 7/29/2020 at 18:24 (1,356 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 1082980 , Reply# 10 7/29/2020 at 18:58 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1082981 , Reply# 11 7/29/2020 at 19:02 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Washer Without Weights | ||
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Post# 1082983 , Reply# 12 7/29/2020 at 19:10 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Niagra | ||
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Post# 1082990 , Reply# 15 7/29/2020 at 19:59 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1082993 , Reply# 16 7/29/2020 at 20:03 (1,356 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@R11
No, can't be done I'm afraid. Even vintage bolt down Bendix washers of old with their 300 rpm spin speed needed to be bolted down as directed. There isn't a free lunch with H-Axis washing machines; forces generated during tumbling or spinning must be addressed somehow. Either by suspension system, or bolting into several feet of concrete or other substantial surface. H-Axis washers are designed to send forced down to floor where they will dissipate throughout structure. Bolt down washers do more of this but units with suspension systems do as well. In commercial use washer/extractors above a certain weight capacity most always have robust suspension systems nowadays. It is seen as preferable to sending all that forces down into the building which could cause all sorts of problems. Not saying would shake building apart, but under certain conditions those vibrations would be felt far and wide in building. One reason early spin drier washers by Easy,GE and others weren't popular was because units tended to go walk about during spinning. Easy even sold little rubber casters to slip under washer's legs in aid of preventing this from happening. Many housewives weren't convinced and stuck with wringer washers. They may not have excelled at extracting water, but neither did they zoom around kitchen or laundry room either. | ||
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Post# 1083061 , Reply# 17 7/30/2020 at 07:05 (1,356 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1083141 , Reply# 18 7/30/2020 at 18:40 (1,355 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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Three rinses, standard (NOT ALUMINUM motor), belt drive electric Askoll pump, double solenoid fill valve (one of all fills and other for fabric softener), electromechanical timer, no electronics at all as per consumer requests, body 100% PP, SS and PP drum, water level intentionally high (1/3 of the drum) and, as expected for any HATL washer, the capacity is impressive for the size of the washer. Extremely simple design. More simple than that, impossible. | ||
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Post# 1083142 , Reply# 19 7/30/2020 at 18:43 (1,355 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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Chetlaham Call me on Whatsapp +1 (661)2386684 and I can show it in the lab. | ||
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Post# 1083163 , Reply# 20 7/30/2020 at 20:56 (1,355 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1083165 , Reply# 21 7/30/2020 at 21:01 (1,355 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1083194 , Reply# 22 7/31/2020 at 05:10 (1,355 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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Oooops. i missed a comma there.... Belt drive (the washer is belt driven) COMMA electric pump | ||
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Post# 1083195 , Reply# 23 7/31/2020 at 05:16 (1,355 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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Oooops. i missed a comma there.... Belt drive (the washer is belt driven) COMMA electric pump Also... more simple than that IS possible (and it's comming soon) Same washer, 20 minute shut off timer, manual fill, separate on-off switch for pump. babysit the washer to fill, then come back to babysit the drainage and refill for rinse, maximum capacity 15% reduced, motor power reduced. Made after many "off-grid" customers begged me to create a solution under 300 Watts (for solar panels) | ||
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Post# 1083196 , Reply# 24 7/31/2020 at 05:18 (1,355 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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and for those missing an old school washer.... very soon we'll have a ROUND washer with an agitator somewhat similar to a Maytag Wringer (without the wringer) AAAAAAAND EXTREMELY AFFORDABLE. (I mean REALLY inexpensive at the full meaning of the word "inexpensive"). Designed thinking of helping fixed income customers that struggle saving quarters for the laundromat. | ||
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Post# 1083221 , Reply# 27 7/31/2020 at 09:13 (1,354 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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The laundromat I’m going to tomorrow May have two American Motex extractors, Not sure if they are employees only, If they are not, hopefully they’ve retrofitted them to more modern Safety standards, I’ll try to get some pictures tomorrow | ||
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Post# 1083223 , Reply# 28 7/31/2020 at 09:21 (1,354 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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That makes sense. BTW, in the pics posted on the Niagra website I think I see what looks like blue, red and yellow wires going to the motor. I like the choice of colors! Whirlpool I think uses red and yellow for their PSC motors- so I see what you did there! ;)
You switch both live and neutral with the power button? Mallory timer? What the yellow plastic plug thing for on the side of the tub? I'm starting to fall in love with this design. I will probably by one in a few months. Honestly whatever you make without electronics I will appreciate. | ||
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Post# 1083225 , Reply# 29 7/31/2020 at 09:23 (1,354 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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PSC motor washer
A while back I drew this up for a washer without electronics:
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Post# 1083226 , Reply# 30 7/31/2020 at 09:28 (1,354 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Longing
I longing for a front load washer without electronics as well. Though spin will have to be limited because of that. But I'm willing to buy it. I don't like how modern Queens have an electric interface and an electronic motor control board.
Personally I'd like to see a motor with 2-4 poles for spin and 16-18 poles for tumble. Timer controlled, two chunky capacitors where the motor control sits. A pressure switch that once satisfied kicks off the water and turns on a heater. | ||
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Post# 1083314 , Reply# 32 7/31/2020 at 19:18 (1,354 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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Here’s the laundromat with bock hydro extractors | ||
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Post# 1083368 , Reply# 33 8/1/2020 at 05:27 (1,354 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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@Adam aussievac
On that Bock extractor does the lever on the front operate a lid lock so it can't spin while open?
We used to have such spin dryers in our launderettes they saved quite a while in the dryer, I have a number of separate spin dryers all capable of reaching speeds up to 3.100 rpms some items come out ironing ready and yes you do need to use an iron as they crease somewhat, But as I enjoy ironing its not an issue :) Austin | ||
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Post# 1083378 , Reply# 34 8/1/2020 at 07:12 (1,354 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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One routinely spin dries linens of all sorts that have been hand washed, and will be ironed afterwards. To avoid heavy creasing trick is short extraction time. Far better to have things a bit moist and then hang to dry further as opposed to extracting to death, then having deep set creases.
One thing H-axis washing machines have over spin dryers is use of short periods of spinning, stopping, fluff wash, start spinning again, repeat...... While often frustrating to anyone waiting for cycle to finish, there is a method to madness. Those short pauses with fluffing between spinning redistributes loads for better and even extraction, and helps prevent deep creasing. Back in days when there were only separate washers and extractors you'd have workers who felt if some spinning was good, more time is better. They would leave things in extractor so long what emerged was a solid mass of laundry heavily creased. Once other workers go through "shaking out" wash, and or it was put into a tumbler to break things up and fluff, things were evaluated before reaching or at finishing area. Ir the hand ironers or those doing things by machine said it was hopeless (as in they wouldn't be able to remove creases by ironing), everything had to go back to washing machines for several rinses to re-hydrate. This hopefully relaxed fabric removing deep creases. Then whole extraction process had to be done again. As for Bock extractors, always thought would be nice to find one. Then read specs; they don't hold any more than domestic spin dryers (10 pounds). But you do get a larger basket so doing big items like blankets or even quilts isn't an issue. Also the larger tub means less creasing as opposed to domestic units. | ||
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Post# 1083381 , Reply# 35 8/1/2020 at 07:42 (1,354 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1083508 , Reply# 36 8/1/2020 at 23:56 (1,353 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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I found a bock extractor I just hope the borders don’t close so I can get it This post was last edited 08/02/2020 at 03:14 | ||
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Post# 1083510 , Reply# 37 8/1/2020 at 23:57 (1,353 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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Ozzie I think so, I honestly don’t know as I didn’t ask | ||
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Post# 1083553 , Reply# 38 8/2/2020 at 07:14 (1,353 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA) |
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Our local laundromat had an extractor--I used it a couple years ago, actually...didn't realize they were so scarce. The laundromat had a suspicious fire about 18 months ago--they didn't touch the building for about a year (everyone's dry cleaning was hanging in that area---it was a smoky mess, of course). They've just now cleaned it out.
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Post# 1084553 , Reply# 39 8/10/2020 at 03:47 (1,345 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Reply #23 | ||
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Post# 1084555 , Reply# 40 8/10/2020 at 05:53 (1,345 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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Jamiel Here’s a picture of the extractor I’m getting, The handle on the right of the lid Locks The lid closed, releases the brake and starts the motor, Although I think the switch is possibly stuck in the on position, I’ll look at it in more detail when it arrives | ||
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Post# 1084676 , Reply# 41 8/11/2020 at 03:02 (1,344 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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A few minutes ago I replied an email froma customer asking similar questions about the Niagara. Just in case, this weekend I'll make a video in the lab to post here. It will be VERY splashy, washing with the lid open. | ||
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Post# 1084678 , Reply# 42 8/11/2020 at 03:08 (1,344 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Video | ||
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Post# 1084681 , Reply# 44 8/11/2020 at 03:24 (1,344 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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I don't want to show off but.... The cleaning performance is actually BETTER than in a Speed Queen. | ||
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Post# 1084689 , Reply# 45 8/11/2020 at 05:07 (1,344 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Post# 1084690 , Reply# 46 8/11/2020 at 05:15 (1,344 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Would pics of the timer or tech sheet be to much? I already like the choice of wire colors your using.
Well thought out machine. You could make a larger Staber version for customers who want a full size yet economical no BS washer but I doubt it would sell as well. Honestly I wish you could make full size washers considering how well you are doing with portables. You have a gift, and I like it! :) | ||
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Post# 1084691 , Reply# 47 8/11/2020 at 05:17 (1,344 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Staber
For those wondering:
www.staber.com/product/81... But its ridiculously priced. And has electronics. Yuck. | ||
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Post# 1084714 , Reply# 48 8/11/2020 at 08:27 (1,343 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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Thomas Can you define PITA? I know it’s not the kind of bread by the same name | ||
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Post# 1084716 , Reply# 49 8/11/2020 at 08:44 (1,343 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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PITA | ||
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Post# 1084717 , Reply# 50 8/11/2020 at 08:52 (1,343 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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Oh, Thanks Ozzie | ||
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Post# 1084763 , Reply# 52 8/11/2020 at 19:46 (1,343 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT) |
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I can’t wait to see pictures of this Well that I’m a little bit confused are you talking about a top loading washer and dryer? | ||
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Post# 1084764 , Reply# 53 8/11/2020 at 19:56 (1,343 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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Reply # 51 | ||
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Post# 1084772 , Reply# 54 8/11/2020 at 23:10 (1,343 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula) |
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John, it won't cost that much. It will be around $4k for the washer-dryer combo gas. | ||
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Post# 1084784 , Reply# 55 8/12/2020 at 01:59 (1,343 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Combo | ||
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Post# 1084791 , Reply# 57 8/12/2020 at 06:25 (1,343 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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I'm so proud of you! :) And grateful that you exist.
I'd really try and make a low cost combo. I'm figuring that if the machine does not spin, you can easily add a blower and heater for just a bit more. But thats me just imagining. I have to say, my mind is still swimming from the Niagra. If you could start producing a no none sense DW and stove I think this could make the company compete with Whirlpool. You will never meet another no none sense person like me I think. | ||
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Post# 1084795 , Reply# 58 8/12/2020 at 07:09 (1,343 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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A New Gas Combo, Reply # 51 I may be off in the retail price somewhat, but it will still be north of $10,000 easily if it does even 3/4 of the things you list in reply # 51.
We have ranges in this country that cost $10,000 too over $20,000, many high end refs cost over $10,000.
I am glad you are here Thomas the world needs big thinkers and dreamers, I dream of designs and machines I would like to see as well, I do believe full sized combination washer-dryers will make a comeback and do fairly well. But it will take a large company to do it and even then it will cost over $4000.
When you look at the several people that thought they would build an original automobile over the last 50 years no one has ever succeeded in doing much more than blowing through millions of dollars.
John L. | ||
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Post# 1084912 , Reply# 60 8/13/2020 at 05:31 (1,342 days old) by chetlaham (United States) |
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Reply 58
I'm not buying it. You've got China making products pennies on the dollar in part from over simplified minimalist design.
I can't see why someone can't stick a heater and a blower on cheap FL design. If you ditch the suspension and counterweights (no spin) that can offset the cost. Less efficient yes but you've got a low priced combo that will create a market. | ||
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