Thread Number: 85809  /  Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
Looking for help with this KitchenAid KDS 15
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Post# 1103529   1/7/2021 at 08:47 (1,175 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        

This dishwasher was installed in 1966. I love this unit and do not want to replace it. However, I'm somewhat hesitant to try it, figuring the seals are all shot after all these years. I do not think my mother has used this in years. Also (refer to photo 5) there is a copper high-pressure tube sticking out from the right-hand side of the unit. Not sure what that is, since the water enters on the other side of the unit.

I would appreciate any advice, resources, and possible vendors for parts. I have the original manual and installation guide. Modern appliance repair guys won't touch it.

Thanks in advance!


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Post# 1103531 , Reply# 1   1/7/2021 at 09:15 (1,175 days old) by Cam2s (Nebraska)        

Gorgeous vintage KitchenAid dishwasher there. Glad you are restoring it and not throwing it on the scrap pile. Your first move should probably be to put a gallon or two or very hot water In the sump and let it sit for a while. This will allow the seals to rehydrate and give you an opportunity to identify any possible leaks. Any major leakage should be addressed but if you only get a few drips they might go away after a while. You’ll also want to test the electrical components. If you aren’t feeling adventurous you can shut the water supply off and start a cycle to see if you can hear the pump running as well as the fill and drain solonoids snapping at their respective times. If there aren’t any leaks the pump turns on I’d let it run a cycle and see what happens.

Post# 1103546 , Reply# 2   1/7/2021 at 12:14 (1,175 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)        
Copper pipe

Is the sink to the right of the dishwasher? That could be the drain connection, disconnected for some reason. See if there's a hose connection somewhere for the drain.


Post# 1103796 , Reply# 3   1/9/2021 at 08:57 (1,173 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        

Thanks for the responses, very helpful. I need to take the Action Indicator off to remove the bottom panel. I'm pulling but it doesn't come off very easlily. Sure don't want to break it. Suggestions?

Post# 1103800 , Reply# 4   1/9/2021 at 09:51 (1,173 days old) by stevet (West Melbourne, FL)        
A true classic!

Our first dishwasher was this same KDS-15 but slightly newer than yours. Yours is probably one of the earliest machines with the screwed together washarm.

Regarding the copper pipe inside the sink base, I would have to agree with SteveD and say it is the drain line and was originally connected to the sink drain somehow. Obviously, you need a drain connection. Use a 5/8" heater hose drain and non-corrugated. Most auto parts stores will carry the 5/8" heater hose so that will withstand the high temp water passing thru it. The plastic corrugated crap that comes on today's machines causes too much friction and water flow restriction for the amount of time that your machine drains and may result in standing water in the machine.

As far as the Action indicator goes, it is all one piece, that is, the beige knob and the chrome ring are all one assembly and cannot be separated. Most likely, after all these years, rust has formed between the lower panel and the ring as well as on the timer shaft making it all hard to remove. Even when new, this was always hard to pull out.

I would suggest spraying some PB-Blaster around the ring and let it soak in. Then push in on the stainless panel around the perimeter of the ring to loosen it up. Then see if it comes out. If you can access the timer from the side, meaning you have to pull the machine out, spray the shaft where the knob slides on to the timer and let it soak in. Then gently pry the knob assembly off the shaft. It may take a few tries but you should be successful. Once done, coat the timer shaft with some anti seize so it won't stick for the next 60 years!



Post# 1104015 , Reply# 5   1/10/2021 at 16:02 (1,172 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 1104018 , Reply# 6   1/10/2021 at 16:18 (1,172 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)        
Here's what you're trying to remove

This is what the knob assembly looks like. I'd run a putty knife carefully around where the outer chrome rim meets the panel.


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Post# 1104058 , Reply# 7   1/10/2021 at 21:22 (1,172 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        

Thank you for all of the input, it was very helpful. So, yes, copper plumbing was part of the drain assembly. You can see the flexible hose in photo #1 leading over to it. The copper bridges between the cabinet wall. I'll continue to the garbage disposal with the 5/8 recommended hose. The disposal seems to have accommodation for the line.

Once I understood that the chrome and plastic were one piece, I was able to remove the Action Indicator very easily with some gentle prying from behind with a knife. Very clean, no rust whatsoever (photo #2). I can't wait to put this machine through its paces.


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Post# 1104064 , Reply# 8   1/10/2021 at 21:51 (1,172 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

Nicely done!  The disposer should definitely have a connection for the drain hose.  Just be aware that if the disposer has never had a dishwasher hooked up to it before, there is likely a plug that needs to be knocked out of the disposer's hose connector fitting so that water from the hose won't be blocked from flowing into it.

 

If you have an air gap (a metal cylinder atop the sink), that is where your drain hose should be connected.  If you don't, then you should route the hose so it goes up to the top of the sink cabinet to form a hook (an air gap alternative) before routing the remaining portion back down to the disposer.

 

Dishwasher air gaps - HomesMSP

 

Cross Connection in Dishwasher Drains | 8 Points Home Inspection

Water Coming Out of the Dishwasher Air Gap | MisterFix-It.com


Post# 1104276 , Reply# 9   1/12/2021 at 11:33 (1,170 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        

Any suggestions on cleaning the top portion of the unit? Fine steel wool? I tried magic eraser, it worked to some degree. Bartenders Friend worked very well on the stainless.

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Post# 1104297 , Reply# 10   1/12/2021 at 13:47 (1,170 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

You might try some automotive chrome polish, but only on areas that are stainless or chrome.  It looks like the textured surface is painted, and chrome polish could remove that paint.  If you can get the unpainted trim areas decent looking, it might be best to mask off everything but the textured area and repaint.

 

Another alternative is to keep an eye out on craigslist or other on line classifieds for a donor machine with a better panel on it.


Post# 1104970 , Reply# 11   1/18/2021 at 15:07 (1,164 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Update - more issues

While installing a new drain hose the flexible hose on the opposite end of the copper pipe fractured (inside the unit). After 55 years it was brittle. I had enough of the 5/8 hose left over to replace that lead. However, a further inspection revealed a cracked rubber water input line (rubber looping line to the left of and behind the copper water input) and possibly two deteriorated smaller rubber hoses, which I assume are vacuum lines. Looks like I'm pulling the unit out to replace those before proceeding forward.

BTW, how in the hell do you open those terrible plumbing clamps. Not with a channel lock pliers that's for sure!


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Post# 1105003 , Reply# 12   1/18/2021 at 19:31 (1,164 days old) by Lorainfurniture (Cleveland )        

Look up Corbin pliers (?) or something to that effect. There is a specific pliers for those clay that make it a breeze

Post# 1105496 , Reply# 13   1/22/2021 at 10:13 (1,160 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Fantastic source thanks everyone - next question

Okay, my corbin pliers come in today, so this weekend I'll replace that intake hose that goes from the back of the water intake valve to the copper pipe that runs up the left side of the unit. Everything looks fantastic underneath, especially the motor and sump area, with no rot whatsoever. Top-side a bit of rust or coloring around the heating element prongs. I am somewhat worried about the shape of the water intake valve, it shows calcification/rusting on the exterior around the screws holding it together. If it is shot, is it possible to replace it?

Post# 1105732 , Reply# 14   1/24/2021 at 15:00 (1,158 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Thank you, it runs like a charm! Recommend Detergent

Well all three hoses needed replacement, the two outlet hoses and the one input. But man it runs like a champ. There was one small leak in the sump that seemed to seal by the end of the cycle.

Could someone recommend a modern dishwasher detergent that replicates the stuff they used in these old machines? Thanks in advance.


Post# 1105746 , Reply# 15   1/24/2021 at 17:42 (1,158 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        
Excellent News That It's Up and Running Well!

rp2813's profile picture

Many here use Cascade Fryer Boil-Out, which still contains phosphates.  It can be found at industrial/institutional supply retailers as well as on line.  Google it for more info.

 

I've provided a link to an old discussion about it.

 

Now, if you haven't already read up on it, loading your dishwasher properly will ensure great results.  Since there is no dedicated wash arm for the upper rack, you need to be careful about how you load large pots, etc. in the bottom rack so they don't prevent the spray action from reaching portions of the top rack.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO RP2813's LINK

Post# 1107102 , Reply# 16   2/7/2021 at 09:00 (1,144 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Leaking from bottom corners of the door

This happened the last two cycles I ran, no issues before. Another oddity, this only happens during the first wash cycle, then stops for the remainder of a full or sanicycle - weird!

After digging around previous posts, someone suggested the issue was with two plastic flanges attached to the corners of the bottom rack, which are missing on my rack (see the second photo).

I noticed the bottom ends of the door seal turn slightly inward on both sides. Perhaps that is the issue, but then why the leaking only during the first wash phase?


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Post# 1107105 , Reply# 17   2/7/2021 at 09:15 (1,144 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
What kind of detergent are you using?


Post# 1107108 , Reply# 18   2/7/2021 at 10:10 (1,144 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Detergent I'm using

(See Image) also, of note, both times I had issues I was adding to the pre-wash area. The times I did not I only filled the regular wash area.

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Post# 1107118 , Reply# 19   2/7/2021 at 11:20 (1,144 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Reason I asked about detergent is pods can cause sudsing.  Powders don't typically do that but is there excess sudsing if you look inside when the leaking occurs, or during the main wash period even if leaking doesn't occur then?  Are you using rinse aid?  Spilled rinse aid or leaking from the dispenser can cause it.


Post# 1107127 , Reply# 20   2/7/2021 at 12:16 (1,144 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Yes, I did add rinse aid

And some was spilled and settled around the rim of the reservoir.

Post# 1107141 , Reply# 21   2/7/2021 at 14:29 (1,144 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        
For the control panel

neptunebob's profile picture
Have you tried a toothbrush and toothpaste? I found Colgate to work well for something like this.

Post# 1107142 , Reply# 22   2/7/2021 at 14:31 (1,144 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Yes, I have used the toothpaste method

Very good results. Also using aluminum foil and saltwater.

Post# 1107144 , Reply# 23   2/7/2021 at 14:34 (1,144 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
How to disassemble rinse aid section for inspection?

I think this is my excessive sudsing, front door leaking problem. I noticed the dip-stick for the jet dry was bone dry. Perhaps it is all leaking out during the wash. How would I disassemble this section from the door to inspect?

Post# 1107282 , Reply# 24   2/8/2021 at 16:10 (1,143 days old) by Awooff (Peoria, Illinois)        
Ka rinse aid dispenser

awooff's profile picture
Had an old ka do the same thing - leaking all the rinse aid out. Just didnt refill it and dishes were still spotless.

Post# 1107288 , Reply# 25   2/8/2021 at 17:55 (1,143 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

rp2813's profile picture

We had a KDI-21 that developed this same problem, but it was intermittent.  It was easy to tell when it was occurring because the machine operated almost silently when suds were present. 

 

We had a hot tub at the time, and we had to keep a squeeze bottle of liquid de-foamer around for those times when guests wore bathing suits, which caused sudsing when the jets were in use.  I ended up squirting a shot of that into the dishwasher when the problem presented itself and it knocked down the suds. 

 

The machine had started misbehaving in this way not all that long before we sold the house, so I never attempted any repair.  Access to the rinse aid dispenser would have been fairly easy, and I would think removing the front panel on your machine would provide similar accessibility. 

 

KitchenAid experts here may be able to offer dispenser troubleshooting guidance, but you could also wait for the reservoir to empty itself and switch to hanging a Jet-Dry solid rinse aid from the top rack if a repair attempt hits any snags.  Or, as stated above, if you have soft enough water, rinse aid may not even be necessary.


Post# 1107578 , Reply# 26   2/11/2021 at 09:00 (1,140 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Rinse aid dispenser

So after removing the front panel I discovered that the rinse aid dispenser was bone dry after filling it with a large amount of the Jet-dry- my sudsing issue! I wonder if it would hurt to fill it with water and see how it operates, bring the door back into place, and see if all the water dumps out, turn the action indicator by hand and go through some cycles. The plastic container has no cracks or leaks, so it must be the solenoid, spring, and/or diaphragm is shot. Has anyone attempted repairing or replacing those items?

Also, when I reassembled the door panel, I now have a "snapping" sound when I close the door from the full down position, very annoying, and not sure what's going on there. Obviously, some parts are now in the way of one another.

Great discussion board, can't thank all of you enough!


Post# 1107592 , Reply# 27   2/11/2021 at 11:08 (1,140 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Run it with he panels off.

chachp's profile picture

 

Why not run it with the panels off until you get the issues worked out so you can watch what happens at certain times of the cycles?


Post# 1107593 , Reply# 28   2/11/2021 at 11:10 (1,140 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)        

jamiel's profile picture
also make sure you're not accidentally/intermittently leaving residues of dishwashing liquid (Palmolive/Dawn) on the dishes---my husband's been known to do that.

Post# 1108905 , Reply# 29   2/20/2021 at 17:37 (1,131 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Watched Sanicycle with front panels off

That was a great suggestion, and after doing so, the rinse-aid had nothing to do with the over-sudsing, in fact, that dispenser seemed to be working fine. It is only when I added detergent to the prewash area that I had the suds leaking from the bottom of the door. To confirm, I just ran a full cycle without detergent in that compartment, no issue. I wonder if today's detergents are more concentrated so that a tablespoon and one half is too much. Any thoughts are welcome - thanks in advance.

Post# 1116595 , Reply# 30   5/7/2021 at 19:02 (1,055 days old) by jgiotto (Rochester)        
Swing door for detergent dispenser not always closing

This is intermittent, sometimes it closes on the main wash semi-circle, other times it refuses to shut and springs open. Thoughts? Kind of dead-in-the-water with the malfunction.

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Post# 1116602 , Reply# 31   5/7/2021 at 19:51 (1,055 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KD-15 Detergent Dispenser Won't Stay Closed

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This was a  common problem with these as they aged, if you take the outer door panel off you can see what is happening when you try closing the cover.

 

Some times you can fix this problem by bending the pin that holds the dispenser together, but most times we would just replace the complete dispenser.

 

There are probably still a lot of good used dispensers for these KD-16 and 16 DWs out there, if you have trouble finding one we can sell you a good used one for $30 + shipping.

 

John L.


Post# 1116619 , Reply# 32   5/7/2021 at 22:24 (1,055 days old) by 4bagger (Long Beach)        
Hmmm

That explains why my KDS-15 soap dispenser wires were disconnected when I got it several years back. Since the machine worked fine, I left it alone and just use detergent pods. Five plus years of regular use and still going strong.


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