Thread Number: 86037  /  Tag: Vintage Dishwashers
Need Help! Panel Dishwasher deepness
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Post# 1105955   1/26/2021 at 22:09 (1,157 days old) by Natosha_Jacobs (New York)        

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I need advice please. I want my integrated DW - Kenmore Elite 12776 panel ready - to be flush with the cabinets. I even got a 2" overhang for the granite and it comes out past that?

Our kitchen remodel is near complete and this issue I am unwilling to overlook. I went with a KD so they could advise me, but I don't agree with or like the answer.

Cabinet depth is 24" standard. And behind the DW we removed the drywall to gain 3/4" space. Unattached the DW depth was good. KD ordered the Starmark dishwasher standard cabinet. Because the cabinet has a faceplate at 24" - it was the only place he could attach. But this has the DW out way past the cabinet doors. Should we have gotten a different style cabinet? I see pics all the time and these are flush - what am I missing?

I do not want to accept that there is no solution. Thanks.


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Post# 1105962 , Reply# 1   1/27/2021 at 07:59 (1,156 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

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I just looked up the depth of your dishwasher and if I read it correctly it said 24.874" but it's not clear to me if that is with our without the panel.  I looked up the depth of my Bosch 800 series panel ready and it lists 21-5/8" Depth.  If I read this correctly a different dishwasher may give you what you need if that's an option.  Looks like Miele panel ready machines are a little over 22" depth.

 

All of the panel ready machines I have seen installed have been European (BOSCH and Miele mostly) machines of some type and I believe the dimensions of most of those is less than a Kenmore for example and all that I have seen have been flush to the cabinets.

 

I may be totally off on this.  This type of installation seems much more common in European kitchens and we have many folks here who have them.  I'm eager to hear their input.


Post# 1105963 , Reply# 2   1/27/2021 at 08:04 (1,156 days old) by easy (Boston, Mass)        
DW depth

This may not be the answer to your problem. I had a new Maytag dishwasher installed recently that stuck out like yours. Turns out that the plumber had the drain hose exiting behind the machine before going into the adjacent cabinet. When the drain hose was moved to come out from the bottom of the machine instead, the problem was solved.

Post# 1105966 , Reply# 3   1/27/2021 at 08:36 (1,156 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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there are always options, now whether you choose to choose one is up to you....

you may have seen what others look like being flush, but what was needed behind the scenes you are not seeing, and appears your hitting the same concerns...

a few options may be....

note: fixing one problem, may create another....

you already cut out the sheet rock behind the machine, you may have to cut more into the studs to gain the needed rear space....

pulling the base cabinets forward to match flush is another choice...

select another dishwasher, but consider all dimensions fully assembled before choosing one....

also, when adding a custom front panel, sometimes you may have to add stronger door springs to accommodate the extra weight...


Post# 1105973 , Reply# 4   1/27/2021 at 10:32 (1,156 days old) by beehiveboy (Northamptonshire, England )        

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Hi there, I’m not able to be massively helpful other than to say that this type of dishwasher has been commonplace in Europe for about 30 years, and always installs flush with no additional fiddling around behind the machine. So I guess I would agree with the above poster that looking at a European machine might be the answer.

Post# 1105985 , Reply# 5   1/27/2021 at 11:01 (1,156 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
KA DW Depth Problem

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It sounds like the problem is where you are attaching it to the side cabinets, If the DW fits before you pull it forward to attach to the side cabinets attach it to the underside of the counter top instead.

 

You can get a metal strip that glues to the bottom of the silly granite counter top so the DW can be properly positioned, with having already removed the drywall there is no reason the DW will not fit completely flush.

 

As mentioned you could go with a much smaller Bosch or Miele DW which are made to fit under European 22" deep CTs, but this is unnecessary for what you are doing.

 

John L.


Post# 1106000 , Reply# 6   1/27/2021 at 12:49 (1,156 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        

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We can do without the editorializing regarding someone’s choice of countertop materials.

Post# 1106065 , Reply# 7   1/27/2021 at 22:32 (1,156 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Type Of Counter Top materials

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I deal with Granite counter tops every working day and there is very little good about them.

 

They stain, crack, get chipped all around the sink openings, they are unsanitary [ generally not allowed in commercial settings ]

 

When I am working on DWs, ranges and refrigerators there is almost always broken glass under the appliances from all the items that have been broken on the CTs.

 

This whole DW installation problem would not have happened except for the difficult granite CTs.

 

Those are the facts, as for editorializing they are also ugly, very few cutting edge kitchens would ever use something that ugly.

 

John 


Post# 1106078 , Reply# 8   1/28/2021 at 00:58 (1,156 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
I don't get it.

 Can you please explain how the choice of countertop could possibly affect how far in/out the dishwasher can be mounted?

surely the factor that most limits the installation is the cabinet into which the dishwasher is being installed?

either the dishwasher is all the way back, or it isn't.

If it isn't all the way back, then it should be re-positioned further back, if the cabinet allows it.

 

I'm not familiar with the term "faceplate". Is this a piece of cabinetry at the BACK of the opening, and it's blocking the dw from going further back? Or is it at the front of the opening, and the installer is aligning the mounting holes in the dw with some piece of trim at the front of the cabinet?

 

If the dishwasher isn't too deep to fit in the cabinet with its door flush with the adjoining cabinet doors, then the installer should fit an extra piece of cabinetry that lines up with the mounting holes of the dishwasher, so it can be installed properly. That extra piece could be installed inside the cabinet sides, or connecting to the (no adjectives required) countertop.

 

 


Post# 1106113 , Reply# 9   1/28/2021 at 13:38 (1,155 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        
News Flash

rp2813's profile picture

Sorry to disappoint, but I believe it's safe to say that the vast majority of members here are not interested in falling into lockstep with a single authoritarian contributor's point of view, nor do we support ridiculing a new member who is seeking useful, non-judgemental advice.

 

 


Post# 1106118 , Reply# 10   1/28/2021 at 14:04 (1,155 days old) by twintubdexter (Palm Springs)        

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You may have to go through the back wall entirely. If it's an outside wall you can get creative.


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Post# 1106119 , Reply# 11   1/28/2021 at 14:19 (1,155 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
#10

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That is so bad and so terribly funny!  Thanks for a good laugh.


Post# 1106121 , Reply# 12   1/28/2021 at 14:27 (1,155 days old) by dermacie (my forever home (Glenshaw, PA))        

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to me it almost looks like the sink base is back too far. When I look at my cabinets in comparison, My cabinets were installed one year ago so it should be similar.

Post# 1106153 , Reply# 13   1/28/2021 at 22:46 (1,155 days old) by vacman1961 (North Babylon, New York)        

Unfortunately, I hate to say this, but being in the appliance business for over 40 years, the only solution today is a Bosch or a Miele, they are not as deep as the American brand machines. I have a panel ready Kitchen Aid and I removed the sheetrock and shaved some of the studs behind the machine to make it fit flush, I was not getting rid of my Kitchen Aid.


Post# 1106162 , Reply# 14   1/29/2021 at 07:40 (1,154 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Installing US DWs

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In the US DWs are designed to be attached to the lower edge of the counter top, problems arise when when using granite and other stone CTs because you generally do not want to try drilling holes in them because you may cause them to crack and break.

 

There are work arounds that can work, the best ones I have seen is metal strip with hundreds of holes in it that can be epoxyed to the bottom of the CT and the DW attached to the strip.

 

John L.


Post# 1106164 , Reply# 15   1/29/2021 at 08:17 (1,154 days old) by steved (Guilderland, New York)        
US models

Nearly every US dishwasher with a stainless steel tub is able be secured by installing the mounting brackets to the holes in the sides of the tub.

 

I think plastic tub dishwashers still need to mount to the countertop in the traditional way.  On plastic tub models, I've always added screws to the bottom of the frame into the side cabinets to keep the dishwasher from pushing in from weight on the door.

 

Here are a couple of clips from Whirlpool's (and Kitchen Aid and Maytag) Use and Care Guide for installation instructions


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Post# 1106191 , Reply# 16   1/29/2021 at 15:53 (1,154 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        
The Memo:

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Steve, thanks for providing genuine installation instructions from the manufacturer -- for use by both professionals and the DIY homeowner -- that eliminate the need for applying a glued-on strip of metal to the countertop in order to secure the dishwasher.




This post was last edited 01/29/2021 at 16:22
Post# 1106233 , Reply# 17   1/30/2021 at 07:18 (1,153 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Mounting US Dishwashers

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All WP built DWs come with brackets that can be used to mount the DW to the counter top [ preferred ] or positioned on the upper sides of the DW to attach the DW to side cabinets.

 

Using these side mounting brackets is apparently what caused this thread to get started because the brackets were screwed into the front hardwood cabinet frame which positions the DW too far forward in many cases.

 

The poster can use the side brackets if they want but they may have to add some wood to beef up the cabinet sides so the screws will hold.

 

The best way to install this DW when using stone CTs is to use the steel mounting strip glued to the bottom of the CT material and at and the steel strip also attaches to  the side cabinets.

 

Hi Ralph, I don't know why you often start spewing out advice when you don't know what is going on, my first rule of posting anything on line in print is to know what I am talking about and to be pretty damn sure that I am correct in what I am posting.

 

John L.


Post# 1106249 , Reply# 18   1/30/2021 at 12:11 (1,153 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

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seen too many times of not even using any said brackets.....

the installer actually drilled through the side of the dishwasher attaching it to the cabinet....and without bracing properly, pulled the sides out of whack, and the door would not seal properly....

if done properly, may not have had issues.....

once seen on a F&P Dishdrawer....they drilled and screwed from the side....not paying attention that they screwed through the arms that lower the lid....and ergo, the machine would leak water onto the floor....also in thinking, it was a malfunction from the machine itself....

it can be done right, if someone knows what their doing, and really messed up if they dont.....


Post# 1106252 , Reply# 19   1/30/2021 at 12:35 (1,153 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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DishDrawers (older models, can't say about changes to current) are designed for optional fastening at the sides.  Anchor tabs are engineered into the outer cabinet, no need to drill holes in it.


Post# 1106254 , Reply# 20   1/30/2021 at 12:44 (1,153 days old) by Yogitunes (New Jersey)        

yogitunes's profile picture
very true Glenn.....

it was just one of those times, they either didn't pay attention, or know what they were doing....

in any case, they tossed out a perfectly working machine....not realizing what was done to cause the leak....

F&P did have a nice square cabinet around their dishdrawers....could almost be used as a stand alone unit....


Post# 1106257 , Reply# 21   1/30/2021 at 13:30 (1,153 days old) by RP2813 (Sannazay)        
Cue the condescension and brimstone

rp2813's profile picture

The Great Oz has spoken. 


Post# 1106290 , Reply# 22   1/30/2021 at 18:24 (1,153 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

John, why can’t the dishwasher just be screwed into the sides of the cabinetry. Here the wood the cabinets are made of is definitely solid enough to hold the dishwasher in place. Why would anyone screw the brackets into the facia panels rather than the cabinets? Cant you just unscrew it, push it back flush and screw it in again?

What am I not seeing or understanding?


Post# 1106308 , Reply# 23   1/30/2021 at 22:56 (1,153 days old) by CircleW (NE Cincinnati OH area)        

Natosha, your cabinets are beautiful, and some of the best made.

According to the StarMark website, the end panels are 3/4" thick veneer plywood, and are set in 1/4" from the ends of the faceframe, unless flush end panels are specified, which eliminates this reveal.

It's impossible to tell from the picture if a sink cabinet or a sink front is used in this installation. If it is a front, there is a 5" return at each side. Regardless, there should be sufficient material to fasten the dishwasher to, filling in with 1/4" plywood if necessary to accommodate the reveal. I also can not tell if there is a filler to the left of the machine. I would think one might be necessary to assure the DW door opens without scraping the wall.

As the DW is designed to have a cabinet panel attached, I can't imagine Whirlpool or any other manufacturer having one that doesn't line up with adjoining cabinetry, as that is the whole point. The common thickness of the wood panels is 3/4", but may vary by door style. The specifications of the DW show insulation on the back, but say it can be compressed. The measurement of the machine back to front, not including the decorative panel, is 24". This is the same as the depth of standard base cabinets. It's possible something is obstructing it from going back into the opening fully - perhaps bunched-up insulation, debris, or wiring or piping out of place. I would remove the machine and check for obstructions.

I hope you find a solution, so you can fully enjoy the new kitchen.




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