Thread Number: 86248  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
The new energy labels - Shocking in 2 ways
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Post# 1108052   2/15/2021 at 10:29 (1,137 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

So, I am actually awaiting delivery of a new washer (Wednesday) and I still am out from work (we will have closed at least until March 7th, projected).

Thus I thought hey, 2 weeks till the new labels will be shown officially.
Might as well calculate the ratings of some appliances.



Now these calculations are not hard per se, just kind of annoying.
So I only did them for washers and dishwashers, but I made them in a simple to use google doc.

I'll share them here.
All I ask you to do is if you want to play around with them to download them and use them then.
Or to at least not mess with the second page (Calculations).
This is an online doc, if you change something it will be visible to every other person following the link.

So just download it and open it on your desktop, that would be the best for everyone.



Washers:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...

Dishwashers:
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1...




The more shocking thing is:

Washers easily reach class A.
Most Eco 40-60 cycles achieve that.

However dishwashers will SUCK.
I own and use a Miele G7100SCi, one of the most efficent DW out there today.
It uses 0,75kWh for 14 place settings.
That is currently class A+++ -10%.

Yet it gets an D (though scraping verry close to C).



There really isn't a whole lot more efficent out there.
And its that bad.
Like...
What?





Post# 1108054 , Reply# 1   2/15/2021 at 11:06 (1,137 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
So I double checked

The most efficent DW available technically in germany from a know german brand is Mieles G6000 series at 0,67kWh.
These reach class C under the new rating system - but are "last gen"?!?


The thing is the VZug now lists DW on their german website.
And you can buy them through the online shop.

They might have the ONLY A-rated DW on the market by March.
Their V6000 with heatpump uses a whopping 0,49kWh putting it square in the A-class.

BUT:
- This DW cost 2000€ or more.
- The Eco-cycle runs 5h 55min. All other cycles are barely any more efficent and actually use more water from what I undestand.
- It is what would be considered "tall tub" height over here (at least 87cm height of installation space) while only being "standard tub" tub height.

So I couldn't even fit it in my kitchen.



On slimline DW, both Miele and Bosch run into class D with their A+++ machines, though interestingly, the Miele with its lower rated capacity is a little more efficent, much closer to C.

There is one machine on the market my calculation can't account for:
There is a Gorenje 45cm DW rated at 11 place settings which slips through my if-statement (there are 2 different virtual comparison machines; one for DW with at least 10 place settings and a width larger then 50cm and one for DW with a capacity up to 9 or a width up to 50cm; my calculation checks for only load size).
That would run as C.


So, if Miele could pump up their load size to that of the Gorenje machine, they could bump up verry close to a B.





I'm beginning to question if A is possible without a heatpump.





Funny neough as I checked again now:

Gorenje has a full size 16 plate setting DW running at 0,76kWh making it class C.

I would guess the trend in the comming months/years will be more place settings.


Post# 1108082 , Reply# 2   2/15/2021 at 15:29 (1,137 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

So the most efficient DW are those with a heat pump? I didn't even know those existed.

Post# 1108172 , Reply# 3   2/16/2021 at 03:40 (1,136 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
VZug

VZug is a "high end" swizz appliance manufacturer and they have a couple of things that "no one else has" (for example a EU full size oven-microwave-steamer-combo).



A couple of years ago they launched the first ever washing machine with heat pump heating.

A couple of years later they added that to a dishwasher as well.




Main idea is that the heat pump pulls heat from the surrounding area and puts it into the wash water.



On washers that works quite well.

The system is effective up to 40-50C, but of course isn't quite as fast at heating (about 1kW of power).
Paired with a normal resistive heater (about 2kW) the system is quite versatile.

You can choose 3 different economy settings.

The least efficient runs both heaters simultaneously making for a very high heating power.
With that it claims to still be 10% more efficient compared to the same machine just using it's normal heater.

The next level still maintains normal wash temperatures but heats solely with the heat pump until that is no longer effective.
That saves up to 30%.
Especially in lower temp cycles it makes a huge difference.

The next step up again drops the main wash temperature.
Especially on higher temp cycles that saves some more at the trade off of even longer wash times.
Basically you can get a 60C result just with the heat pump.




Though long cycles are kind of a stretch.
The default Cottons 40 is about 2h for a full load, 60 just a little more.
That is at the medium setting.







On DW the system is somewhat - odd?
Cycle times are kept largely the same since a claim to fame for these DW is their speed.

It saves anywhere from nothing to 0.1kWh on normal cycles.

The Eco cycle on the non heat pump DW is anywhere from 5h 50min to 6h 30mim and uses about 0.67kWh.
With the heat pump it takes 5h 55min and uses 0.485kWh.

The trade off is that a) the DW has no water storage tank (can't save the final rinse water for the next pre rinse) and b) the water ways are somewhat larger and thus fill Levels are naturally somewhat larger.


There is an Eco option for most cycles.
On the normal machine that just drops wash temp.

On the heat pump model that extends the cycle significantly but saves up to 30% supposedly.







The biggest caviat is that the DW is just a bad deal compared to the washer.

On the washer, you now trade off automatic liquid dosing (side note: their liquid dosing system is genius, the tanks are in a second drawer on the opposite side to the main drawer, no stopping and still a full normal drawe) and about 200€ or so for a very efficient system that actually saves significant amounts of energy in everyday use without extraordinary cycle times or dropped temps.


The DW however has no third rack, is extra high, has a "smaller" inner size, saves not all that much in day to day use and is priced 500€ and up over the non heat pump model.





Yeah there is one heat pump DW, but it is far from perfect.


Post# 1108400 , Reply# 4   2/17/2021 at 16:17 (1,134 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA)        
#REF!

peterh770's profile picture
You have several #REF! error cells on the washer sheet

Post# 1108405 , Reply# 5   2/17/2021 at 16:37 (1,134 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Those weren't there a day ago

I'll fix them...

Post# 1109985 , Reply# 6   3/2/2021 at 07:07 (1,122 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Fridges

So I didn't bother much about fridges and freezers...

But damn that's bad.

Most built in stuff is F or E.




Even the most efficient fridge freezers are C rated.

That'll cause a lot of outcry...

My A+++ fridge is actually D rated now... Wow...


Post# 1117402 , Reply# 7   5/16/2021 at 17:05 (1,047 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
As far as I'm concerned

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

They can shove the crazy labels you know where along with the stupid EU. 

🤮🤮🤮


Post# 1117471 , Reply# 8   5/17/2021 at 12:26 (1,046 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        

maytag85's profile picture
Those energy labels are nothing more than a sales pitch and is just a way to make people buy things they really don’t need.

Post# 1117476 , Reply# 9   5/17/2021 at 13:24 (1,046 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
At the end of the day...

They use more power and water. Why did they ruin the normal cycle?

Post# 1117479 , Reply# 10   5/17/2021 at 14:12 (1,046 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

lowefficiency's profile picture

>> Most built in stuff is F or E.
>> Even the most efficient fridge freezers are C rated.
>> My A+++ fridge is actually D rated now... Wow...


In the big picture, this is a good thing.

What good is the rating system to consumers, if everything gets an A?
As efficiencies continue improving, do we just keep adding pluses?
How much better is an A+++++++++ dishwasher than an A++++++++ model?

Whenever a scale is established with the intention of showing relative differences, it has to be updated over time as those items being measured evolve.


Post# 1117510 , Reply# 11   5/17/2021 at 19:33 (1,045 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
That is right Sean. Just think people are not even informed that much of the rating is based over the eco cycles which are cycles they basically never pick as they take forever.

Obsessed with this stupid letter European rating they do not understand anuyhing of it but the letter.




This post was last edited 05/17/2021 at 19:51
Post# 1117520 , Reply# 12   5/17/2021 at 20:36 (1,045 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        

maytag85's profile picture
They just put those labels on appliances so gullible consumers who don’t know any better but that appliance then start kvetching that it doesn’t work and that it’s not holding up. Might look like it uses less energy but in reality it’s a whole lot different since things are always different in the real world compared to a test/engineering lab.

Post# 1117521 , Reply# 13   5/17/2021 at 20:53 (1,045 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Appliances nowadays would work the same as they do whether or not the energy labels are on them, LOL.


Post# 1117544 , Reply# 14   5/18/2021 at 06:43 (1,045 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Energy Guides On New Appliances Etc.

combo52's profile picture

Are a great way to inform consumers about energy usage and still allow freedom of choice when you purchase a new appliance, I do not understand why anyone of you are complaining about them.

 

Would you rather the EU hid the information ?,

 

You might accidentally go out and buy an efficient appliance, LOL

 

But seriously the saving of energy and fuel these cheap to add stickers have allowed world wide is enormous, I don't know anyone that buys a new car or even refrigerator without looking at them.

 

John L.


Post# 1117546 , Reply# 15   5/18/2021 at 07:48 (1,045 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
No they did not IMO.
Also, what I said was about the crazy labels and letter system not labels in general which could be and sometimes are a good thing.
And I agree that is mostly a bait and switch thing. "Buy me cuz I'm better" sticker.
With this letter system what people do is walking into a store and reach for the A's and the ones with more + not even aware of how the ratings is calculated and works. Yet they are obsessed only by a letter and pluses.
Much that they also believe that by buying a ++++ machine they will be able to run washer dishwasher and dryer at same time without exceeding the 3.3kwh that is the maximum a regular meter allows a home to pull over here.
So this let you understand how much they actually know, or Better Say, don't know.

They usually are unaware that is primarily calculated on the Eco cycles, cycles that they basically end up using rarely and more than often forget about.
It is totally missing the time factor which is important to have a better understanding.
I mean ok, you have a machine that in that particular cycle will use half a liter less and 300 Watts less hence deserve a plus, no doubts, but take 35 mins longer. Question is: Do you really want that? Is your €100-€200 more on the price tag worth it? Is it worth the potential saving on Electric bills?
Some attentive studies says it is not in many cases.
Anyway.
Nobody is put in front of this question.
Again clueless and selling people even more.

And I will explain this better later.
Selling personnel especially in chain stores are usually more clueless than buyers are and NEVER tells it like it is but just say yes or no same as asking questions to a magic ball.
So this usually have two effects, not only a purchaser is tempted to replace their slightly older machine with some with a couple of + more, but also leads a purchaser to spend more on a model with a couple + more when the cheaper other next to it will use just as much in the other cycles, yet they are convinced that the rating is about all the cycles and that the machine will always use less or be better than another which is not true.
As I was saying is very frequent on Facebook appliances groups also to find people unaware of all the rating thing, and as it turns out you find them asking "why the eco cycle takes the double of the normal?" Sometimes they ask if their machine is defective " Help my new dishwasher is working since 2hrs now, think it is broken it wont finish'.
And you got to explain them what actually eco means, about the ratings and that for istance a 60°c eco cycle Will not reach 60°c actually etc..
Not to mention the maintenance problems Eco cycles often cause and how many machine cleaning cycles you'll have to run after. Always if they will do them before seals bearings or spiders rottens
After aknowledging it many feels kind of "ripped off"... They come down to reality from their bubbles.
Of course that's also their fault not to do their own homeworks, but as they make this huge fuss about letters they are brought to make a bigger deal than it actually is.
Again, obsessed.
A few decide to use those endless cycles during the night and alternate with others (wise choice) most decide to just forget about whatever in the ECO chart and many others instead pick whatever cycle does it shorter as they want it done quick.
I also do not find the washing ability rating to be truthful at all.









This post was last edited 05/18/2021 at 11:07
Post# 1117549 , Reply# 16   5/18/2021 at 08:05 (1,045 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
And as we are talking about it, another thing I will never understand about Europe's washer-dryer market is why nobody regulated how the declared capacity is expressed.
Because the kilograms thing is also more than often a bait and switch and pretty dumb.
You had models with the exact same basket mentioning different capacities.
Kilograms means nothing, 8kg of thick jeans take less space than 8kg of towels, not to mention synthetics.
Based on this manufacturers can basically write whatever they want.
And since also capacity plays a fundamental role picking a new machine what I would rather like to see from EU is to forbid Kg's advertising but shift to capacity in liters.
That way you cannot deceive.


Post# 1117551 , Reply# 17   5/18/2021 at 10:51 (1,045 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        

maytag85's profile picture
Energy labels are just there to make people buy more so companies make more $$$$.

Post# 1117562 , Reply# 18   5/18/2021 at 13:46 (1,045 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
?

That's the EU energy label.
It is literally mandated by law AND with the new energy label repairability requirements went into affect as well.



A whole country left the EU due to this.

Dyson sued the EU and won so the vacuum energy label was scrapped.



Sources for you claims?


Post# 1117568 , Reply# 19   5/18/2021 at 15:18 (1,045 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Interesting.  How do energy labels force people to "buy more?"  No one I know seems to be doing that.


Post# 1117572 , Reply# 20   5/18/2021 at 15:46 (1,045 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        

maytag85's profile picture
Buy crappy appliances that don’t work properly and only last a few years so someone has to buy another crappy appliance that won’t last.

Post# 1117581 , Reply# 21   5/18/2021 at 17:12 (1,044 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture
Henrik
I do not understand your comments.
Did somebody say that or are these your considerations?
Anyway:

Yes they are mandated by law and like everything coming out of the EU is dumb and corrupt and blinking to China and manufacturers now involved with China.
As for the repairability requirements do you really think they are going to make any difference? Because I don't, incomplete requirements and silly.

About Brexit.
UK certainly did not leave because of Dyson LOL
But because they were sick and tired of Europe's dishonesty and wanting to command everything and only to advantage a couple ones, Germany primarily.

Say how big zucchini must be, how much milk you can export, how big clams must be, (Just think they wanted Italy to make cheese with dry milk LOL and expect not to get a "puncha on tha face") bans on ingredients, products etc... Nanny statism etc.
And a lot of other reasons including illegal immigration also resulting from how bad EU is managing migrant chrisis but vacuums or appliances.
In fact never heard say Boris Johnson say a word about vacuum cleaners.
Not a fan of Dyson myself, but I think that the lawsuit was legit (and apparently even a judge thought so as they won) testing vacuum cleaners when empty is not a real life condition, as soon those modern oil filter- like filters of chinese vacuums get some dust in them suction changes drastically hence vacums that sucked well when empty then "sucked" at sucking after awhile.
Dyson vacuums have a different system and wont cause these problems.
Always china made stuff but at least the design and particular technology is patented and British.
DeLonghi for istance just delegate technology and design to China. like them many others. "Just make something looking like this"...
Profit profit profit 🤑🤑🤑
But again not a fan of these.


Am currently using a 1970s 800w canister vacuum and with only 800watts outperrorms 6 times those chinese 1600w ones. Plus filter is washable in the washer.
Really you gotta see the suction it got only using 800watts!


Regarding how labels makes a person willing to buy a new appliance, it is simple.

If your machine needs say a sily thing such as a new thermostat and it is an A and you walk in a store and see a A++++++ on offer.
Someone might well be thinking not to fix the thermostat but buy that A+++++ machine as by having all those + will think it'll give a saving on electric and it'll be a huge incentive not to fix the old but buy the new one, even though that saving just won't be real as explained in my other reply.
The wise thing to do would have been spend your 50-80 euros get it fixed, what actually happens is that they think the new will be better and Will repay itself with money spared on bills so go out and buy the new one.
Is the saving going to happen? No.






This post was last edited 05/18/2021 at 19:13
Post# 1117751 , Reply# 22   5/20/2021 at 07:34 (1,043 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Oh China??

They may be communist, but who lives in the nice large houses adjacent to the Shanghai aeroport? who golf's on the numerous beutiful golf courses they have now?
Whom drives all the Audi, BMW, Buicks, Mercedes, VW's, Cherry, Rowe', etc., etc. cars there now? Until we traded with China, they were all but starving. They are ahead of us in high speed rail, mag Lev., light rail, not to mention tech.and the future og artificial intelect for robotics.
You will never change it. The world as we now know it will end first.
You come here and buy certain GM (Cadillac) vehichles, they have China owned Fauyju glass in them made in Dayton Ohio.


Post# 1117757 , Reply# 23   5/20/2021 at 07:59 (1,043 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
Inh

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

Who lives in those places?

Probably some fat western a or chinese exploiter that made money over there exploiting and polluting thanks to the inhumane and rule-less system there.

People to envy? No thanks.

Do you even travel or read to see how the rest lives? LOL

Big homes? There is not even the material space to make chinese people live in big homes!!

And by all means not the size americans are used to.

What you see is the 0.1% do you think the rest have those privileges?

Or are those for those already rich that got richer that now deal in China as It Is becoming a superpower? So american big greedy companies mostly?

Audi, BMW, Buicks, Mercedes, VW's, do Cherry, Rowe', etc. Are European and american cars, is not it weird rich folks over there wear drive and eat nothing that is Chinese? Answer yourself. Do you think rich chinese folks wear Prada or the "chingchung" junk dress that looks made by a blind seal or at best got cancirogen dyes? Do you  think their maids will vacuum with a junk china made Kenmore or a Haier or They got a  made in Wuppertal vorwerk? 

They are proud of the 80% junk stuff they produce knowing it is junk? Or are rather proud they are screwing america hard and lubeless? Is their government planning for a pacific cohabitation or you see troubles coming once they take over!?

You know, am kinda worried, don't know what to expect from a country where it is normal to produce and sell keychains with live animals trapped inside. That is just a silly example and don't you dare say i'm racist! These are facts.

As for technology, I'd like to remind who taught them and who could still be ahead of them, of course granted that some folks in a certain country are rather busy getting back on track and not too busy self loathing and self spanking or self burning looting their cities over fake racism issues and bullshit and impeaching annoying patriots only to elect a senile moron colluded with China as well.

People thinking like that are the ruin of USA. So sad.

But again do you really like drag politics out of the blue when it got nothing to do? One mentions chinese made junk vacuums and you come over with your deliriums over china golf courses for the rich bastards? Geez you mus be one of those eating thanks to China! LOL




This post was last edited 05/20/2021 at 12:12
Post# 1117764 , Reply# 24   5/20/2021 at 08:26 (1,043 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
An example of the destructive mindset

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

Again it is everything so damn hilarious!😂😂😂

People do (rightly) boycott a pasta brand because allegedly homophobic.

At the same time they are sold for life to a brand if they decide to turn the logo rainbow in June. Marketing. In 201* that Is marketing. If they did that back in '95-98'  2000ish that'd been taking a stance, you know when even the beloved Killary believed marriage was man-woman only.


They now see racism even in butter packages and pancake mixes,  but they must be american or ain't worth boycottin'!!! They are perfectly fine to buy chinese because China is absolutely known to be "human rights paradise" right?  Or buy whatever goods from a company that is ethical only on the cover.
Racism homophobia etc is non existent there!

An example to follow Indeed! 😂😂😂




This post was last edited 05/20/2021 at 11:55
Post# 1117778 , Reply# 25   5/20/2021 at 10:31 (1,043 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Look How Many People On This Website

combo52's profile picture

Are all giddy about buying their next washer from China with the LG name on it.

 

If I live to be a 100 I will never buy Chinese appliances as long as we make great washers and dryers here in Union factories from WP and MT.

 

And we build hands down the best full sized washers and dryers in the world by the worlds largest builder of commercial laundry equipment Speed Queen, Union built in Wisconsin.

 

The good news on SQ FL washers is the price has come down, we are selling them for about $1600, Delivered and installed, still with a 5 year P&L warranty, not bad for a washer that will outlast 2 or 3 regular home machines and best of all are simple to fix for do-it-your-selfers.

 

John L.


Post# 1117800 , Reply# 26   5/20/2021 at 12:36 (1,043 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

I have also seen European and italian washer people being giddy over getting a Candy as it became Haier owned.

Especially the ones for which Candy was the all time favourite , and they never believed some day Candy would not be Candy anymore.

But as they say that's crying over spilled milk...

Because when it was time to face reality and at least admit what was what you had them on total denial .

Claiming cheap china made Candy boards and parts were as sturdy as a tank and many even claimed there was no difference with a Miele. A MIELE!!! LOL

Drooling over a punch in the guts such as a Candy Bianca when it cane out because it "talked". Washing? That's another matter.

This did not prevent China to knock on Fumagalli's door one day and buy the brand as he was sick and tired to deal with a system that favourites china and constantly gets in the way if one (for some weird reason) still have their manufacturing in the same country the Company headquarter is.

 

Unfair competition.

Same could one day happen to SQ too. Especially as  other companies are incited to put profit in front of enviroinment and quality and even get a pat on the back from certain politicians.

Candy of course wasn't a world leader like Alliance, which let's be honest,  Is so like Miele by being into the big commercial laundry  if it had to rely on domestic and coin laundry only it'd be dead already  not because Is not good but cuz it is too good.

 

But was not even the last wheel of the wagon.

The company ate Hoover, Zerowatt, Otsein...It  eventually got eaten by the chinese. 

Most Italians and Europeans are not even aware of the change.

It just quickly passed on some journals, those kind of things always do pass unnoticed and never gets properly reported as people would (rightly) perceive something just Is not right. You know "how come"?

People Just go out and buy..and again look at the letter on a tag a capacity and how many leds it got,  eventually  the Turkish will soon become chinese. Am already seeing the competition Akai vs Beko lately.

 

 

 




This post was last edited 05/20/2021 at 14:10
Post# 1117826 , Reply# 27   5/20/2021 at 17:23 (1,042 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Guys. HEY!!!!

Let's keep it civil over here!

Post# 1117841 , Reply# 28   5/20/2021 at 20:23 (1,042 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

yeah, sheesh. Isn't one of the rules to keep politics out of the non-paid forums?

the production move to china isn't surprising, and neither is the cost cutting. capitalism is extremely profit motivated, and if the CEO of whirlpool can make an extra 300,000 a year by cutting costs on washing machines or something like that, they'll probably do it. right to repair is extremely important because of this. it takes a stance against planned obsolecence and insane cost cutting by requiring appliances to be easier to repair.


Post# 1117869 , Reply# 29   5/21/2021 at 04:29 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

You are right Marco.

In fact I just recently made your exact same point for what concerns companies greediness, right to repair  and all of that  in another similar thread that went much or less like this one and was then moved to the dirty forum.

Again, I still need to understand what do Airports, golf  and all of that had to do with what was discussed.

But I just can't shut up.

Someone must really like Made in China or feel threatened by my views over China and companies that make stuff in China if mentioning china made vacuums is enough to trigger a discussion like that. 

 




This post was last edited 05/21/2021 at 05:00
Post# 1117870 , Reply# 30   5/21/2021 at 04:44 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
Regarding politics:

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

Said that, in order to keep the thread accessible to non donating members I am very OK to have my political posts removed - deleted as long as others also are.

As I  would feel bad if It had to be shifted to dirty section like the other one for which i felt bad  too.

 

 And that is because it would be unfair  to whoever non donating may want to read or contribute to it and who created it in the first place.

Which is the reason for the rules.

For sure is the fact that once certain arguments are brought out I Just won't shut up! Because I care.

If I mention goods made in China and read a rant over how China is allegedly this awesome  place and how USA is this backwards hopeless scumhole I need to make a few points.

 




This post was last edited 05/21/2021 at 05:06
Post# 1117871 , Reply# 31   5/21/2021 at 05:15 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        
Regarding politics

foraloysius's profile picture
The thing with discussions about politics in this forum and other ones that are not intended for it, is that it causes Robert work to move or remove such threads. Therefor it's nothing more than good manners not to post political views in threads where they don't belong post here and say that they can be moved or removed. Robert has limited time to manage this website, so be nice to him and open a thread in the Dirty Laundry Room when you feel the need to vent your political views.

Post# 1117872 , Reply# 32   5/21/2021 at 05:25 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

You are right.  

But as I said another time I have no intentions to post anything on that forum section even of I could as am upgraded,  I gave clear reasons for it. Reasons that someone even perceived being rude. 

So it all boils down to whoever start a certain kind of off topic discussion and I do not feel I have. 

Nor this time and the other time.

And again once certain arguments are brought out I won't just shut up.

Without mentioning that I like to use the website for fun and leisure not to get engaged in discussions that do nothing but piss me off.

 


Post# 1117873 , Reply# 33   5/21/2021 at 05:33 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
We are all responsible for keeping the public accessible threads free from political discussions. That includes you too. You sound like a child arguing: "But he started it". There is no excuse from continuing something that shouldn't have been there in the first place. So even if someone else started a political discussion, there is no excuse for responding to it. The only thing to do is click on the report button and contact Robert.

Post# 1117874 , Reply# 34   5/21/2021 at 05:38 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

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One could argue that it could be like a kindergarten kid calling for the teacher.

 


Post# 1117875 , Reply# 35   5/21/2021 at 05:42 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

But you are right.

I am not calling myself out.

For what is worth  I give my apologies!


Post# 1117877 , Reply# 36   5/21/2021 at 05:46 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
No need to apologise to me, if you want to apologise, do it towards Robert.

Post# 1117878 , Reply# 37   5/21/2021 at 05:48 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

In fact am not doing it only to you, but everyone. Robert included 

I think it was pretty clear


Post# 1117879 , Reply# 38   5/21/2021 at 05:52 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
No, that wasn't clear. BTW, Robert doesn't read most threads, so it's not very likely he will see your apology.

Enjoy your day.


Post# 1117881 , Reply# 39   5/21/2021 at 06:44 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

I'm hopeful that whoever will stumble on this thread and will follow the outcome will also read the rest. Especially Robert  and if he'll be called to  take action. Losing his time.

I have also received PM messages thanking me for writing what I did as as apparently there is a dominant political mindset here and not a very tolerant attitude from some.

I certainly would not have came out with such discussions if they were not brought out first calling me in as I was the one mentioning China.

If somebody had something to reply about vacuums or chinese made appliances in general it'd have been nice to discuss.

Talking about how China is allegedly cool mentioning some golf courses and USA sucks when talking about it it is like if somebody came out talking about rationalism and how good were some buildings built during fascism (and they were) and subtdly wanted to pass the idea fascism was the coolest of times becauseof it. To which not only me but am sure most on this website would have replied to vividly and animously perhaps triggering even angry interventions because of the reasons  we know. It would personally piss me off. A LOT

Again, it is not in my nature to report stuff or go act like a crybaby over the teacher and of course am nobody here to make any decision.

But I will follow your suggestion as you say that Robert does not read most posts.

Have a nice day you too

 

 

 

 

 




This post was last edited 05/21/2021 at 07:10
Post# 1117912 , Reply# 40   5/21/2021 at 17:23 (1,041 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Besides,

politics should be in the dirty laundry forum.

Post# 1118163 , Reply# 41   5/24/2021 at 13:01 (1,039 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
American big business

all wanted to go to Asia, China and Mexico for cheaper labor. What Capuzzo described as greedy capitalist's are exactly how American corporations operate. Who invests in the corporations? We all do, so changing the system would mean smaller dividends for all.
Earning and spending drives the modern economy. Other nations are as dependant on us all spending as much as we depend on their goods.


Post# 1118243 , Reply# 42   5/25/2021 at 04:48 (1,038 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

That is greediness, period. 

It is not about capitalism to me.

Capitalism can work and actually worked well. Still could. With clear rules. With ethics.

Yes they did that to increase profits, of course, and the governments did not see it as a problem back then and or did not care about and was not smart enough to foresee the destructive outcome.

I speak about America but of course isn't just about America only.

Also, it is not that every company  is like that, there are even companies that strive and strived to keep stuff made in USA.

Those were the companies where an employee was not just not just an employee, and that would have hated to leave them jobless as they moved their plants to China or elsewhere.

Silly example, Speed Queen is a brand that takes huge pride to build stuff in USA. And Alliance is a global laundry giant...

We do not all invest, nor most, we (meant as people) mostly consume, which is different.

And if we don't produce as we let other countries do that  we only consume and we have a problem.

 

Investors are rather the shareholders that buy stocks. 

Of course goes along with profits.

But if you think to live thanks to dividends as they pursue ruthless greediness (unless you are extremely rich to buy a huge amount of stocks hence becoming one of them) you will never get actually rich and if you  expect your country not to collapse and become increasingly poorer you are nuts.

Do you see your brothers and sisters buy  stocks as they become jobless and can't even put bread on their tables?

But it all is related to the way we consume.

And again, besides rich chinese people I do not picture chinese people buy much of our stuff once they take over.

 

Obviously as already said it all boils down to the way we consume and how's regulated. How production is regulated that reflects on how we consume.

What we chose.  And especially how market is regulated.

And again in that regard I say that since a company ethic looks like it is an important part for some or most or at Ieast they act like it is, I will never understand how some people can say to be a "human rights warrior" and happily buy china-bangladesh-vietnam made stuff as if those were not made with exploitation or  from people in a country and system, where the human rights  we are used to and take for granted they can only dream about. Reason for the cheaper labour cost.

I actually see people with certain beliefs and  more than often accused to be racists rutheless corporate's friends etc to be really much more attentive to ethics and origin of goods vs people with others.

Also being patriotic became somehow a bad or racist thing.

And, as I said another time, it is not merely about the people anyway but a government.

As you can understand am not a fan of big government, but government is responsible to keep an econony good and a country florid. That is supposed to be its main goal.

I mean if not for regulating economy as the main job what you have a government for?

As said another time, the so much criticized import tariff thing as well as the "bring US Jobs back" thing, which of course came almost too late (and some people could argue just too late),at  least came and I could see it working.  Could be done more? More smartly? Certainly!

Globalisation can only work only as long as we have same standards and since of course we have not all same standards here comes the tariffs.

These are things that in the late 90s early 2000ish would have been considered extremely leftist, I sympathize with the no global people.

But now tides have turned.

Tariffs are now racist or unfair or liberty limiting for some...

Unfair is actually how current trades and econmy are laid out.

Even for things such as regulations about pollution we are forced to follow, as the companies that strive to build stuff here are increasingly submerged with regulations and huge costs even in those regards (besides worker safety or stuff like paid vacations etc), China got nothing or little of all that!

Yet I see certain climate change warriors bashing USA and only USA with in USA withouy saying a word about China.

Which makes me wonder if they really care about what they claim to care about or they have been put there by someone.

 

 

 

 




This post was last edited 05/25/2021 at 09:03
Post# 1118244 , Reply# 43   5/25/2021 at 05:01 (1,038 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

Of course as the whole equilibrium changed and people here became increasingly poorer we more than often are now forced to buy china made...

Low quality kind china made of course.

As because of the higher cost people cannot afford something better.

If a low income family needs a frying pan will walk to a Walmart or dollar tree will likely get a $12 chinese pan inside their cart that last 2 years tops rather than an Ohio made $50 Calphalon that will will last 8-10 years.

 




This post was last edited 05/25/2021 at 05:59
Post# 1125531 , Reply# 44   8/11/2021 at 03:59 (960 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
I heard

that energy star is becoming more stringent. Is this true?

Post# 1125785 , Reply# 45   8/14/2021 at 14:32 (957 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Everyone is greedy to a point;

and if you aren't, what is your incentive to work or spend?
Fredddy, pension funds also began declining as things changed. Today an IRA account, and 401K's are more mainstream. Those are as dividend bearing as the markets are healthy. Otherwise, they devalue.
China's largest port opened in the year 780 A.D.



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