Thread Number: 86248
/ Tag: Modern Dishwashers
The new energy labels - Shocking in 2 ways |
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Post# 1108082 , Reply# 2   2/15/2021 at 15:29 (1,137 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)   |   | |
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So the most efficient DW are those with a heat pump? I didn't even know those existed. |
Post# 1108400 , Reply# 4   2/17/2021 at 16:17 (1,135 days old) by peterh770 (Marietta, GA)   |   | |
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Post# 1108405 , Reply# 5   2/17/2021 at 16:37 (1,135 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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I'll fix them... |
Post# 1109985 , Reply# 6   3/2/2021 at 07:07 (1,122 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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So I didn't bother much about fridges and freezers... But damn that's bad. Most built in stuff is F or E. Even the most efficient fridge freezers are C rated. That'll cause a lot of outcry... My A+++ fridge is actually D rated now... Wow... |
Post# 1117402 , Reply# 7   5/16/2021 at 17:05 (1,047 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Post# 1117471 , Reply# 8   5/17/2021 at 12:26 (1,046 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)   |   | |
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Post# 1117476 , Reply# 9   5/17/2021 at 13:24 (1,046 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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They use more power and water. Why did they ruin the normal cycle? |
Post# 1117479 , Reply# 10   5/17/2021 at 14:12 (1,046 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)   |   | |
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>> Most built in stuff is F or E. >> Even the most efficient fridge freezers are C rated. >> My A+++ fridge is actually D rated now... Wow... In the big picture, this is a good thing. What good is the rating system to consumers, if everything gets an A? As efficiencies continue improving, do we just keep adding pluses? How much better is an A+++++++++ dishwasher than an A++++++++ model? Whenever a scale is established with the intention of showing relative differences, it has to be updated over time as those items being measured evolve. |
Post# 1117510 , Reply# 11   5/17/2021 at 19:33 (1,046 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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That is right Sean. Just think people are not even informed that much of the rating is based over the eco cycles which are cycles they basically never pick as they take forever.
Obsessed with this stupid letter European rating they do not understand anuyhing of it but the letter. This post was last edited 05/17/2021 at 19:51 |
Post# 1117520 , Reply# 12   5/17/2021 at 20:36 (1,046 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)   |   | |
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They just put those labels on appliances so gullible consumers who don’t know any better but that appliance then start kvetching that it doesn’t work and that it’s not holding up. Might look like it uses less energy but in reality it’s a whole lot different since things are always different in the real world compared to a test/engineering lab.
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Post# 1117521 , Reply# 13   5/17/2021 at 20:53 (1,046 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1117544 , Reply# 14   5/18/2021 at 06:43 (1,045 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Are a great way to inform consumers about energy usage and still allow freedom of choice when you purchase a new appliance, I do not understand why anyone of you are complaining about them.
Would you rather the EU hid the information ?,
You might accidentally go out and buy an efficient appliance, LOL
But seriously the saving of energy and fuel these cheap to add stickers have allowed world wide is enormous, I don't know anyone that buys a new car or even refrigerator without looking at them.
John L. |
Post# 1117546 , Reply# 15   5/18/2021 at 07:48 (1,045 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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No they did not IMO.
Also, what I said was about the crazy labels and letter system not labels in general which could be and sometimes are a good thing. And I agree that is mostly a bait and switch thing. "Buy me cuz I'm better" sticker. With this letter system what people do is walking into a store and reach for the A's and the ones with more + not even aware of how the ratings is calculated and works. Yet they are obsessed only by a letter and pluses. Much that they also believe that by buying a ++++ machine they will be able to run washer dishwasher and dryer at same time without exceeding the 3.3kwh that is the maximum a regular meter allows a home to pull over here. So this let you understand how much they actually know, or Better Say, don't know. They usually are unaware that is primarily calculated on the Eco cycles, cycles that they basically end up using rarely and more than often forget about. It is totally missing the time factor which is important to have a better understanding. I mean ok, you have a machine that in that particular cycle will use half a liter less and 300 Watts less hence deserve a plus, no doubts, but take 35 mins longer. Question is: Do you really want that? Is your €100-€200 more on the price tag worth it? Is it worth the potential saving on Electric bills? Some attentive studies says it is not in many cases. Anyway. Nobody is put in front of this question. Again clueless and selling people even more. And I will explain this better later. Selling personnel especially in chain stores are usually more clueless than buyers are and NEVER tells it like it is but just say yes or no same as asking questions to a magic ball. So this usually have two effects, not only a purchaser is tempted to replace their slightly older machine with some with a couple of + more, but also leads a purchaser to spend more on a model with a couple + more when the cheaper other next to it will use just as much in the other cycles, yet they are convinced that the rating is about all the cycles and that the machine will always use less or be better than another which is not true. As I was saying is very frequent on Facebook appliances groups also to find people unaware of all the rating thing, and as it turns out you find them asking "why the eco cycle takes the double of the normal?" Sometimes they ask if their machine is defective " Help my new dishwasher is working since 2hrs now, think it is broken it wont finish'. And you got to explain them what actually eco means, about the ratings and that for istance a 60°c eco cycle Will not reach 60°c actually etc.. Not to mention the maintenance problems Eco cycles often cause and how many machine cleaning cycles you'll have to run after. Always if they will do them before seals bearings or spiders rottens After aknowledging it many feels kind of "ripped off"... They come down to reality from their bubbles. Of course that's also their fault not to do their own homeworks, but as they make this huge fuss about letters they are brought to make a bigger deal than it actually is. Again, obsessed. A few decide to use those endless cycles during the night and alternate with others (wise choice) most decide to just forget about whatever in the ECO chart and many others instead pick whatever cycle does it shorter as they want it done quick. I also do not find the washing ability rating to be truthful at all. This post was last edited 05/18/2021 at 11:07 |
Post# 1117549 , Reply# 16   5/18/2021 at 08:05 (1,045 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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And as we are talking about it, another thing I will never understand about Europe's washer-dryer market is why nobody regulated how the declared capacity is expressed.
Because the kilograms thing is also more than often a bait and switch and pretty dumb. You had models with the exact same basket mentioning different capacities. Kilograms means nothing, 8kg of thick jeans take less space than 8kg of towels, not to mention synthetics. Based on this manufacturers can basically write whatever they want. And since also capacity plays a fundamental role picking a new machine what I would rather like to see from EU is to forbid Kg's advertising but shift to capacity in liters. That way you cannot deceive. |
Post# 1117551 , Reply# 17   5/18/2021 at 10:51 (1,045 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)   |   | |
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Post# 1117562 , Reply# 18   5/18/2021 at 13:46 (1,045 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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That's the EU energy label. It is literally mandated by law AND with the new energy label repairability requirements went into affect as well. A whole country left the EU due to this. Dyson sued the EU and won so the vacuum energy label was scrapped. Sources for you claims? |
Post# 1117568 , Reply# 19   5/18/2021 at 15:18 (1,045 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1117572 , Reply# 20   5/18/2021 at 15:46 (1,045 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)   |   | |
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Post# 1117581 , Reply# 21   5/18/2021 at 17:12 (1,045 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Henrik
I do not understand your comments. Did somebody say that or are these your considerations? Anyway: Yes they are mandated by law and like everything coming out of the EU is dumb and corrupt and blinking to China and manufacturers now involved with China. As for the repairability requirements do you really think they are going to make any difference? Because I don't, incomplete requirements and silly. About Brexit. UK certainly did not leave because of Dyson LOL But because they were sick and tired of Europe's dishonesty and wanting to command everything and only to advantage a couple ones, Germany primarily. Say how big zucchini must be, how much milk you can export, how big clams must be, (Just think they wanted Italy to make cheese with dry milk LOL and expect not to get a "puncha on tha face") bans on ingredients, products etc... Nanny statism etc. And a lot of other reasons including illegal immigration also resulting from how bad EU is managing migrant chrisis but vacuums or appliances. In fact never heard say Boris Johnson say a word about vacuum cleaners. Not a fan of Dyson myself, but I think that the lawsuit was legit (and apparently even a judge thought so as they won) testing vacuum cleaners when empty is not a real life condition, as soon those modern oil filter- like filters of chinese vacuums get some dust in them suction changes drastically hence vacums that sucked well when empty then "sucked" at sucking after awhile. Dyson vacuums have a different system and wont cause these problems. Always china made stuff but at least the design and particular technology is patented and British. DeLonghi for istance just delegate technology and design to China. like them many others. "Just make something looking like this"... Profit profit profit 🤑🤑🤑 But again not a fan of these. Am currently using a 1970s 800w canister vacuum and with only 800watts outperrorms 6 times those chinese 1600w ones. Plus filter is washable in the washer. Really you gotta see the suction it got only using 800watts! Regarding how labels makes a person willing to buy a new appliance, it is simple. If your machine needs say a sily thing such as a new thermostat and it is an A and you walk in a store and see a A++++++ on offer. Someone might well be thinking not to fix the thermostat but buy that A+++++ machine as by having all those + will think it'll give a saving on electric and it'll be a huge incentive not to fix the old but buy the new one, even though that saving just won't be real as explained in my other reply. The wise thing to do would have been spend your 50-80 euros get it fixed, what actually happens is that they think the new will be better and Will repay itself with money spared on bills so go out and buy the new one. Is the saving going to happen? No. This post was last edited 05/18/2021 at 19:13 |
Post# 1117757 , Reply# 23   5/20/2021 at 07:59 (1,043 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Who lives in those places? Probably some fat western a or chinese exploiter that made money over there exploiting and polluting thanks to the inhumane and rule-less system there. People to envy? No thanks. Do you even travel or read to see how the rest lives? LOL Big homes? There is not even the material space to make chinese people live in big homes!! And by all means not the size americans are used to. What you see is the 0.1% do you think the rest have those privileges? Or are those for those already rich that got richer that now deal in China as It Is becoming a superpower? So american big greedy companies mostly? Audi, BMW, Buicks, Mercedes, VW's, do Cherry, Rowe', etc. Are European and american cars, is not it weird rich folks over there wear drive and eat nothing that is Chinese? Answer yourself. Do you think rich chinese folks wear Prada or the "chingchung" junk dress that looks made by a blind seal or at best got cancirogen dyes? Do you think their maids will vacuum with a junk china made Kenmore or a Haier or They got a made in Wuppertal vorwerk? They are proud of the 80% junk stuff they produce knowing it is junk? Or are rather proud they are screwing america hard and lubeless? Is their government planning for a pacific cohabitation or you see troubles coming once they take over!? You know, am kinda worried, don't know what to expect from a country where it is normal to produce and sell keychains with live animals trapped inside. That is just a silly example and don't you dare say i'm racist! These are facts. As for technology, I'd like to remind who taught them and who could still be ahead of them, of course granted that some folks in a certain country are rather busy getting back on track and not too busy self loathing and self spanking or self burning looting their cities over fake racism issues and bullshit and impeaching annoying patriots only to elect a senile moron colluded with China as well. People thinking like that are the ruin of USA. So sad. But again do you really like drag politics out of the blue when it got nothing to do? One mentions chinese made junk vacuums and you come over with your deliriums over china golf courses for the rich bastards? Geez you mus be one of those eating thanks to China! LOL This post was last edited 05/20/2021 at 12:12 |
Post# 1117764 , Reply# 24   5/20/2021 at 08:26 (1,043 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Again it is everything so damn hilarious!😂😂😂 At the same time they are sold for life to a brand if they decide to turn the logo rainbow in June. Marketing. In 201* that Is marketing. If they did that back in '95-98' 2000ish that'd been taking a stance, you know when even the beloved Killary believed marriage was man-woman only.
An example to follow Indeed! 😂😂😂 This post was last edited 05/20/2021 at 11:55 |
Post# 1117778 , Reply# 25   5/20/2021 at 10:31 (1,043 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Are all giddy about buying their next washer from China with the LG name on it.
If I live to be a 100 I will never buy Chinese appliances as long as we make great washers and dryers here in Union factories from WP and MT.
And we build hands down the best full sized washers and dryers in the world by the worlds largest builder of commercial laundry equipment Speed Queen, Union built in Wisconsin.
The good news on SQ FL washers is the price has come down, we are selling them for about $1600, Delivered and installed, still with a 5 year P&L warranty, not bad for a washer that will outlast 2 or 3 regular home machines and best of all are simple to fix for do-it-your-selfers.
John L. |
Post# 1117800 , Reply# 26   5/20/2021 at 12:36 (1,043 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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I have also seen European and italian washer people being giddy over getting a Candy as it became Haier owned. Especially the ones for which Candy was the all time favourite , and they never believed some day Candy would not be Candy anymore. But as they say that's crying over spilled milk... Because when it was time to face reality and at least admit what was what you had them on total denial . Claiming cheap china made Candy boards and parts were as sturdy as a tank and many even claimed there was no difference with a Miele. A MIELE!!! LOL Drooling over a punch in the guts such as a Candy Bianca when it cane out because it "talked". Washing? That's another matter. This did not prevent China to knock on Fumagalli's door one day and buy the brand as he was sick and tired to deal with a system that favourites china and constantly gets in the way if one (for some weird reason) still have their manufacturing in the same country the Company headquarter is.
Unfair competition. Same could one day happen to SQ too. Especially as other companies are incited to put profit in front of enviroinment and quality and even get a pat on the back from certain politicians. Candy of course wasn't a world leader like Alliance, which let's be honest, Is so like Miele by being into the big commercial laundry if it had to rely on domestic and coin laundry only it'd be dead already not because Is not good but cuz it is too good.
But was not even the last wheel of the wagon. The company ate Hoover, Zerowatt, Otsein...It eventually got eaten by the chinese. Most Italians and Europeans are not even aware of the change. It just quickly passed on some journals, those kind of things always do pass unnoticed and never gets properly reported as people would (rightly) perceive something just Is not right. You know "how come"? People Just go out and buy..and again look at the letter on a tag a capacity and how many leds it got, eventually the Turkish will soon become chinese. Am already seeing the competition Akai vs Beko lately.
This post was last edited 05/20/2021 at 14:10 |
Post# 1117826 , Reply# 27   5/20/2021 at 17:23 (1,043 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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Let's keep it civil over here! |
Post# 1117869 , Reply# 29   5/21/2021 at 04:29 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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You are right Marco. In fact I just recently made your exact same point for what concerns companies greediness, right to repair and all of that in another similar thread that went much or less like this one and was then moved to the dirty forum. Again, I still need to understand what do Airports, golf and all of that had to do with what was discussed. But I just can't shut up. Someone must really like Made in China or feel threatened by my views over China and companies that make stuff in China if mentioning china made vacuums is enough to trigger a discussion like that.
This post was last edited 05/21/2021 at 05:00 |
Post# 1117870 , Reply# 30   5/21/2021 at 04:44 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Said that, in order to keep the thread accessible to non donating members I am very OK to have my political posts removed - deleted as long as others also are. As I would feel bad if It had to be shifted to dirty section like the other one for which i felt bad too.
And that is because it would be unfair to whoever non donating may want to read or contribute to it and who created it in the first place. Which is the reason for the rules. For sure is the fact that once certain arguments are brought out I Just won't shut up! Because I care. If I mention goods made in China and read a rant over how China is allegedly this awesome place and how USA is this backwards hopeless scumhole I need to make a few points.
This post was last edited 05/21/2021 at 05:06 |
Post# 1117871 , Reply# 31   5/21/2021 at 05:15 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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The thing with discussions about politics in this forum and other ones that are not intended for it, is that it causes Robert work to move or remove such threads. Therefor it's nothing more than good manners not to post political views in threads where they don't belong post here and say that they can be moved or removed. Robert has limited time to manage this website, so be nice to him and open a thread in the Dirty Laundry Room when you feel the need to vent your political views.
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Post# 1117872 , Reply# 32   5/21/2021 at 05:25 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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You are right. But as I said another time I have no intentions to post anything on that forum section even of I could as am upgraded, I gave clear reasons for it. Reasons that someone even perceived being rude. So it all boils down to whoever start a certain kind of off topic discussion and I do not feel I have. Nor this time and the other time. And again once certain arguments are brought out I won't just shut up. Without mentioning that I like to use the website for fun and leisure not to get engaged in discussions that do nothing but piss me off.
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Post# 1117873 , Reply# 33   5/21/2021 at 05:33 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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We are all responsible for keeping the public accessible threads free from political discussions. That includes you too. You sound like a child arguing: "But he started it". There is no excuse from continuing something that shouldn't have been there in the first place. So even if someone else started a political discussion, there is no excuse for responding to it. The only thing to do is click on the report button and contact Robert.
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Post# 1117874 , Reply# 34   5/21/2021 at 05:38 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Post# 1117875 , Reply# 35   5/21/2021 at 05:42 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Post# 1117877 , Reply# 36   5/21/2021 at 05:46 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1117878 , Reply# 37   5/21/2021 at 05:48 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Post# 1117879 , Reply# 38   5/21/2021 at 05:52 (1,042 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1117881 , Reply# 39   5/21/2021 at 06:44 (1,042 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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I'm hopeful that whoever will stumble on this thread and will follow the outcome will also read the rest. Especially Robert and if he'll be called to take action. Losing his time. I have also received PM messages thanking me for writing what I did as as apparently there is a dominant political mindset here and not a very tolerant attitude from some. I certainly would not have came out with such discussions if they were not brought out first calling me in as I was the one mentioning China. If somebody had something to reply about vacuums or chinese made appliances in general it'd have been nice to discuss. Talking about how China is allegedly cool mentioning some golf courses and USA sucks when talking about it it is like if somebody came out talking about rationalism and how good were some buildings built during fascism (and they were) and subtdly wanted to pass the idea fascism was the coolest of times becauseof it. To which not only me but am sure most on this website would have replied to vividly and animously perhaps triggering even angry interventions because of the reasons we know. It would personally piss me off. A LOT Again, it is not in my nature to report stuff or go act like a crybaby over the teacher and of course am nobody here to make any decision. But I will follow your suggestion as you say that Robert does not read most posts. Have a nice day you too
This post was last edited 05/21/2021 at 07:10 |
Post# 1117912 , Reply# 40   5/21/2021 at 17:23 (1,042 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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politics should be in the dirty laundry forum. |
Post# 1118243 , Reply# 42   5/25/2021 at 04:48 (1,038 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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That is greediness, period. It is not about capitalism to me. Capitalism can work and actually worked well. Still could. With clear rules. With ethics. Yes they did that to increase profits, of course, and the governments did not see it as a problem back then and or did not care about and was not smart enough to foresee the destructive outcome. I speak about America but of course isn't just about America only. Also, it is not that every company is like that, there are even companies that strive and strived to keep stuff made in USA. Those were the companies where an employee was not just not just an employee, and that would have hated to leave them jobless as they moved their plants to China or elsewhere. Silly example, Speed Queen is a brand that takes huge pride to build stuff in USA. And Alliance is a global laundry giant... We do not all invest, nor most, we (meant as people) mostly consume, which is different. And if we don't produce as we let other countries do that we only consume and we have a problem.
Investors are rather the shareholders that buy stocks. Of course goes along with profits. But if you think to live thanks to dividends as they pursue ruthless greediness (unless you are extremely rich to buy a huge amount of stocks hence becoming one of them) you will never get actually rich and if you expect your country not to collapse and become increasingly poorer you are nuts. Do you see your brothers and sisters buy stocks as they become jobless and can't even put bread on their tables? But it all is related to the way we consume. And again, besides rich chinese people I do not picture chinese people buy much of our stuff once they take over.
Obviously as already said it all boils down to the way we consume and how's regulated. How production is regulated that reflects on how we consume. What we chose. And especially how market is regulated. And again in that regard I say that since a company ethic looks like it is an important part for some or most or at Ieast they act like it is, I will never understand how some people can say to be a "human rights warrior" and happily buy china-bangladesh-vietnam made stuff as if those were not made with exploitation or from people in a country and system, where the human rights we are used to and take for granted they can only dream about. Reason for the cheaper labour cost. I actually see people with certain beliefs and more than often accused to be racists rutheless corporate's friends etc to be really much more attentive to ethics and origin of goods vs people with others. Also being patriotic became somehow a bad or racist thing. And, as I said another time, it is not merely about the people anyway but a government. As you can understand am not a fan of big government, but government is responsible to keep an econony good and a country florid. That is supposed to be its main goal. I mean if not for regulating economy as the main job what you have a government for? As said another time, the so much criticized import tariff thing as well as the "bring US Jobs back" thing, which of course came almost too late (and some people could argue just too late),at least came and I could see it working. Could be done more? More smartly? Certainly! Globalisation can only work only as long as we have same standards and since of course we have not all same standards here comes the tariffs. These are things that in the late 90s early 2000ish would have been considered extremely leftist, I sympathize with the no global people. But now tides have turned. Tariffs are now racist or unfair or liberty limiting for some... Unfair is actually how current trades and econmy are laid out. Even for things such as regulations about pollution we are forced to follow, as the companies that strive to build stuff here are increasingly submerged with regulations and huge costs even in those regards (besides worker safety or stuff like paid vacations etc), China got nothing or little of all that! Yet I see certain climate change warriors bashing USA and only USA with in USA withouy saying a word about China. Which makes me wonder if they really care about what they claim to care about or they have been put there by someone.
This post was last edited 05/25/2021 at 09:03 |
Post# 1118244 , Reply# 43   5/25/2021 at 05:01 (1,038 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)   |   | |
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Of course as the whole equilibrium changed and people here became increasingly poorer we more than often are now forced to buy china made... Low quality kind china made of course. As because of the higher cost people cannot afford something better. If a low income family needs a frying pan will walk to a Walmart or dollar tree will likely get a $12 chinese pan inside their cart that last 2 years tops rather than an Ohio made $50 Calphalon that will will last 8-10 years.
This post was last edited 05/25/2021 at 05:59 |
Post# 1125531 , Reply# 44   8/11/2021 at 03:59 (960 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)   |   | |
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that energy star is becoming more stringent. Is this true? |