Thread Number: 86303  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
My new washer - A week full of disappointment! 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 1108684   2/19/2021 at 06:34 (1,154 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

So, this week had some ups and downs in my private life, mostly downs.

But I got my new washer!




Spoiler alert:
If you plan on buying a Miele WWF360 WPS here in Europe, I would probably advise against it at this very point.

Why?
I'm 90% sure it has one major programming flaw and I am currently in the process of checking for sure that that is true.







Now the positives:

PowerWash2.0 (now called just PowerWash) is still as good as it used to be.
Very effective, very efficent.

I do like the DirectSensor controls actually alot more more then the one line display machine I had before.
It's much easier and much more comprehensible, much more clean, less cluttered.

The model I chose hit's the sweetspot IMO as it has 1600rpm, PW and the large drum yet can be had for around 1000€.

It lacks some of the speciality cycles that I rarely use anyway.
Only notable omission that sucks (especially if you read the last bit) is a rinse only cycle.
You can work around that, but meh.



So far I have been running some loads.

The bedding loads I ran were very good.
It limited the spin for one blanket I washed, but otherwise flawless performance.

I used the Eco 40-60 cycle for a medium load of darks and it actually washed and rinsed very nice.
It heats to about 30 - like the old Eco 40, maybe a tad higher - in PW mode and rinses twice but with way higher water levels compared to the Eco.
And it is shorter.

The long Cottons cycles have a 2-peak spin.
That is something I observed only on our Bauknecht we had back home.
The machine runs a normal spin up to 1600rpm and stays there for a couple of minutes, then slows down in a controlled ramp to about 800rpm, then right back up to 1600rpm for another 2 minute peak.
Supposedly improofs extraction and spins are good as usual.

The machine can run a boilwash for a full load in 2h spot on, 2:16h if you want 3 rinses.

Normal cycles are still all below 3h, max Cottons cycle is 3:20 (40C, prewash and extra rinse).

Haven't used the new QuickPowerWash yet but will today.


WiFi-setup was way better then the last machine, done in minutes with no hickups.
Though that might just be my new router.


One interesting thing is that the WPS valve on the hose is no longer branded Miele but Bitron instead.
Bitron is a large supplier of many appliance components; small stuff like valves and pressure switches up to motor controlers and main PCBs.
That struck me as odd but not problematic though it is interesting that our Bauknecht back home that had that double-peak spin as well and that used a Bitron made PCB.

Also, they changed the water inlet setup.
It still has that door rinse thing, however that no longer has its own supply.
For rinses and so forth it fills through the prewash and some water is diverted into there.
The machine also dosen't appear to use a motorized water diverter leading me to belive all water inlet components are now Bitron and it uses a tripple valve or maybe even just a dual valve as the spray for the softner compartment is somewhat weaker compared to the water diverter setup my old one had from what I remeber.


As I said before, in general, these are the most efficent machines in day to day use that are on the market currently.
They wash, rinse and spin flawlessly and are very versatile.





Now, my issue.

I have my machine setup in my bedding wash mode right now.
That is Water Plus set up with the max water increase and as both more water and extra rinse plus maximum water level for the rinses.

Ontop of that I have turned on the cool down as usual.



I ran my first of 4 loads of bed stuff yesterday which ran through Cottons 90C.
And right when the cool down should have happended, the machine stopped with an F010 error which is a closed tap error.
I was in crafaffel and my tap is somehwat wonky to begin with, so I colsed it completly and opened it completly again thinking I must have closed it myself for some reason (you know, just ADD stuff).

That was annoying since I couldn't run a rinse only cycle.
Further, the machine keeps you from starting a new cycle until it has cooled down below 55C.
And the machine beeps at you continously until you turn it off and you can't recover the cycle from there.

So I turned it off, back on to drain, back off again, added a couple of liters of cold water which dropped the tmep low enough to then run Shirts cycle with on cold with short and water plus (which makes this a 4 rinse cycle in just over an hour with short puls interim spins).



Not thinking much of it I ran the last bit of bed stuff again today on Cottons 90C with Short and Water Plus.

And it did the same thing, again, right when the cooldown should have happend.

Had to go throught the same procedure again.





My old machine form Miele had some weired programming quirks as well.
For example when selecting Intensive on Cottons 90C that machine just skipped over wash drain and spin, filled with more water after skipping to the rinse portion and then spun and went right into the final rinse.

But here you just can't use the cool down function apparently.





I'll run some verification cycles to see if it really is just the cool down programming.

But I already notified Miele.

I can always just request an exchange machine from the place I bought it since it isn't even a week old.
(I bought the machine from my work place, so no biggie, but since it runs I'd rather have Miele deal with it.)




However I suppose that is a general programming issue that is quite likely specific to that very model.
Thus I just can't recomend it for what it costs.




Post# 1108691 , Reply# 1   2/19/2021 at 07:52 (1,154 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
no rinse-only cycle

I have a Miele W3831, I have no idea how old it is, I rescued it from a skip behind the store, it was traded in as "faulty." I forget its fault but it was trivial, I now have the best washer I have ever owned.

but it drives me crazy because it doesn't have a "rinse only" option. It is disappointing to read that even new Miele washers miss this essential programme.

I have psoriasis and have to be very careful with washing. I always select "water plus" but this still only has 3 rinses. My old LG had 4 rinses. I see the difference in my skin. for years I never had any psoriatic lesions on my skin. Now I have to be very careful with choice of detergent and still I have blotches on my skin, currently 3 patches. That is using a hypo-allergenic detergent and always selecting water plus.

My skin specialist has told me to do extra rinses and try other brands of gentle detergent. I will go back to my old faithful detergent (Abode) and will have to follow every wash (I use cottons cycle for everything, usually 50 degrees, sometimes 60 degrees C) with an express wash, no detergent, which takes 30 minutes and equates to 3 more rinses.

I would love to have a 15 minute, 1 or 2 more rinses cycle. (Extra rinse could be 1 rinse, extra rinse + water plus could be 2 rinses...)

Miele seem to have weird cycles, I wonder about the thinking that happens there. It is a lovely machine, though.
Post# 1108704 , Reply# 2   2/19/2021 at 08:47 (1,154 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Mine lacks it since they crammed some cycles on there and it only has 12 cycle slots.

So they pushed that out.

It is WiFi connected though, so I am somewhat disappointed that even through the app you can't set a rinse only cycle.

The LG I had could do that.





It's odd your machine has no max rinse level programming option.

But these machines should have that burrier somewhere in the programming.

You could always ask Miele for help.
They can usually guide you through the programming of such options on the phone without a costly technician visit.

Post# 1108726 , Reply# 3   2/19/2021 at 11:41 (1,154 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
Sorry to hear you`re disappointed with your new Miele.
Many years ago when I took delivery of my Miele I`ve been disappointed too because I compared it to other washers I`ve had before.
My crappy Indesit had rinse water levels half way up the door and a very accurate infinite thermostat which I liked.
My pre-Electrolux AEG Lavamat rinsed better on cotton cycles and never missed a spin even though it was one of the first ones with out of balance control.
A Siwamat washer-dryer had the best way of dispensing FS. Always on wet clothes, never right after the intermittent spin.
Had an Electrolux based Lavamat for just a few months wich was best at distributing clothes quick and evenly before spinning.

After a rough start and some service calls the Miele has finally grown on me.
Have changed my laundry habits for instance I wash my 60° loads now on 75° since I found out that 60° on the Miele dial means only 55°, and since I`ve raised the front legs a little bit I haven`t had problems with undetected (ignored) sudslocks or spins not picking up to full speed as it was the case before.
Today I wouldn`t want to trade it for any other washer on the market.

My point is give it a chance. No washer on earth is perfect.
Of course the cool down thing is unacceptable and has to be repaired or updated or whatever.

Personally I wouldn`t miss the rinse only cycle of my old Miele because it`s just two high level rinses on delicate agitation without extraction between rinses. Not very useful for me, but that`s only me.
What I do instead is to start a cycle of choice and then immediately skip the wash part by turning the dial to "end" which gives me the perfect extra rinses for any fabric. One thing I miss is that I can`t skip the rinse and do a last rinse with FS only. But there`s still the starch cycle as a substitute for that.
I hope there`s still a possibility to skip the wash part on newer Mieles, otherwise I would be doomed if I had to pick a new washer.

Post# 1108734 , Reply# 4   2/19/2021 at 12:37 (1,154 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Nope

 Can't manualy advance through cycle steps anymore.

Post# 1108810 , Reply# 5   2/19/2021 at 20:32 (1,154 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Rinse only

launderess's profile picture
For those of us who still use starch (such as for linens or dress shirts), loss of that cycle would be a disaster. One reason love my older Miele W1070 is because of that cycle. Happily both the AEG Lavamat and Electroloux AEG Toplader offer, so that's me for you.....


Also like rinse only coupled with spin for things that were laundered by hand. Machine rinsing removes last traces of detergent or soap hand rinsing might have missed, and tends to get things more evenly distributed for easier final spin to remove water.

While sad, suppose Miele has no other choice nowadays but to go with flow and try to produce washers that meet ever increasing energy guidelines, what they think consumers want, and at price points that machines will sell.

Post# 1108824 , Reply# 6   2/19/2021 at 21:39 (1,154 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )        

petek's profile picture
What does it take to add a rinse and spin cycle these days of electronic wizardry. It's not like there is any mechanics going on to do so.. Just a programming addition. Such as on my LG, there are 4 or 5 programs including a rinse and spin on the dial that you can add or subtract rinses, spin speeds, etc etc. However on the app there is around 14 more cycles.. So why wouldn't Miele just add a rinse only cycle on their app.

Post# 1108830 , Reply# 7   2/19/2021 at 21:55 (1,154 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Very awkward indeed that there is no separate rinse cycle anymore. They could have easily organised this just like on my Siemens. A separate rinse cycle and the choice of the number of rinses. If you deselect the rinses you only get a spin. It's annoying that Miele didn't make that possible. They could make it available by an update, but not sure if they would ever do that.

For the rest, enjoy the new machine and hang in there.

Post# 1108901 , Reply# 8   2/20/2021 at 17:09 (1,153 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Henene

Do you mind posting some pics of your new washer?

I think the entry-level Miele washer sold in the USA is the one that doesn't have the rinse-only program but the rest of them do. There is also the Express program that gives you a 16-minute wash and 2 rinses, and a spin. If you select light soil the wash time is reduced so without using detergent it would be like having a quick 3 rinse program. Is there a Quick Wash or Express program on your machine?

My machine has the rinse-only program which consists of 2 rinses and a spin. The last rinse takes water through the fabric softener dispenser so you can use that if you want it.

Miele has pushed updates over the internet to my washer and also my Dishwasher so since you have contacted Miele about your error and you have it connected to the internet perhaps they can download a fix to you.

Post# 1108902 , Reply# 9   2/20/2021 at 17:21 (1,153 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
Rinse and spin

ozzie908's profile picture
I use on my Miele W1 the 15 min cycle and select no temp on the wash it does a wash and rinse and a full spin !

Post# 1108904 , Reply# 10   2/20/2021 at 17:29 (1,153 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Totally forgot

 Not the best pics, but space is kinda tight in the bathroom.


Mine has what would be QuickIntense in the US as well as the Express wash.



QuickIntense is only available in 40C or 60C, so no use as a separate rinse.

Express is available in cold, does 2 low level stages with a short interim spin, so that works.

For deeper rinses I use the Shirts cycle on cold with short.






I used the Shirts and QuickPowerWash since yesterday.

Both use an interesting new PowerWash algorithm which is somewhat different.

While Cotton's, Easy Care and Delicates appear to still do the Spin&Spray portion with actual spins, these cycles do one spin up for load sensing, one spin and spray and afterwards just continuous recirculation with tumbling.

Then they drain, fill with slightly more water and heat.

This leaves the washer with much wetter clothes compared to the normal PowerWash procedure.
Further water is significantly closer to the drum - you can hear the water sloshing.



On QuickPowerWash, I suppose that allows for the shorter wash time at 49min for 4kg.
That's still less water to heat up compared to a full bath but heating can be continuous compared to the indirect steam heating of the "old" PowerWash system.
Tradeoff is that it isn't that efficient and really only works on loads no more then half.



My old machine tended to "underperform" in certain scenarios on the Shirts cycle due to the Shirts ending up very dry for the PowerWash sequence.
With some stains to little detergent remained on the clothing for proper cleaning.

Now they are basically dripping wet.



They also changed the pre-ironing stage.

Time and basic sequence is the same, but the tumbles are much shorter, just a couple turns each direction.
Still alternating speed though.

And maybe it was just this specific fabric softener I used, but they were literally flawless.
Had them set to 60C to shift pit stains that yellowed (my work shirts sat unwashed for almost 3 months now) with an extra rinse and 600rpm, and grabbing them the second the washer finished they were 100% crease free, not kidding.




As I said, I really like these machines.

Just that one error is annoying.
Especially considering that could be layed out as a safety concern.

But yeah, that is just on line missing from the programming.
Missing the valve opening command.

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 4         View Full Size
Post# 1109140 , Reply# 11   2/22/2021 at 10:30 (1,151 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Miele's first response was just a link to how to fix the F10 error which isn't much help ("Is the tap open?")...

Replied to that mail, so we'll see what the next response is.

Post# 1109162 , Reply# 12   2/22/2021 at 12:07 (1,151 days old) by ElectronicSuper (London)        
Interesting timing...

 Hi Henene4,

I'm really sorry to hear that you're disappointed with your new Miele. Your post came at an interesting time though...last week I took delivery of my Miele WEI865. Overall, I'm really impressed. Build quality, noise levels and wash results are what I've come to expect from Miele and with a 10 year parts and labour warranty included, it was the right time for me to upgrade from my AEG.

However, I've also had an issue with mine. I set it to run an Automatic Plus cycle which starts with the Powerwash sequence (distribution & spray, tumble & spray, spin & spray etc) but I noticed that it had been spinning and spraying continuously for about 20 minutes or more. The time to finish hadn't decreased at all so I paused the machine, allowed it to come to a stop and then pressed the 'Start' button again. The cycle continued without any further issues (as a side note - the wash results were great but then again, I guess they would be if the laundry had been spun through soapy water for such a long time).

At first I wondered if the extended Powerwash was a feature of the Automatic Plus programme but the fact the time to finish froze has convinced me it was either a one-off glitch or a programming issue. I've not yet had a chance to try it again to see what happens.

Like you, I love every other aspect of the machine but as you wisely state, it's a potential safety issue (if I'd set the machine and left the house for the day, would I come back to a machine that had been spinning and spraying for hours, putting my laundry and the motor under immense extended strain?)

I can also appreciate how frustrated you are at them asking you to check whether the tap is open but I'm interested to hear how your further experience of their servicing pans out.

I'm going to try the Automatic Plus cycle again in the coming days and I'll report back whether the same issue happens again.


Post# 1109389 , Reply# 13   2/24/2021 at 09:30 (1,149 days old) by washerguy02 (Manchester )        
Miele W1 and error codes glitchy programming

 washerguy02's profile picture
Sorry for my negativity but the latest Miele W1s have unreliable electronics with their constant F20 error codes prematurely, glitchy programming. If I was paying a really high price (a grand) for a brand new washing machine I would hate it if the machine failed prematurely/way too early it is just sad and pathetic when that happens.

Also they are really fussy with balancing for a Miele which is bad as considering they are meant to be a top high quality brand they shouldn't care about balancing so the fussy balancing is a massive step downwards for Miele. The older versions did not care about balancing.

There is a video of a Miele W1 randomly draining water like 6 minutes into the cycle for no reason and when you open the door to check the temperature it randomly pumps out for no reason.

I do think the new Mieles perform well as stated above and are okay to good when working except the balancing obviously by watching videos of them. It's just however that they are not for me as I would rather have a reliable washer if I was paying a high price for a machine so instead of getting a Miele washer I would buy a Bosch or Siemens machine as they are far more reliable for the high prices you pay for them.

Conclusion: I recommend Bosch or Siemens if you are paying for high price machines that are like a grand as reliability is important for a machine costing a grand.
Rant over

Janak

Post# 1109401 , Reply# 14   2/24/2021 at 11:29 (1,149 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
BSH machines

 Stupid runtimes, mediocre durability (BSH uses sealed tubs now as well, FYI) for the same money I'd spend here.
(OK, the Bosch maschine would be 800 not 1000).

So no BSH machines for me.




I can't say my machine is fuzzy with balancing at all, especially compared to some other machines I had.

I've washed all my pillows, blankets and now bedding today.

On my duvet last week it limited the final spin to 1000rpm about.
Otherwise every load so far has spun at full speed.



The reason they drain when the door is open is a rising water level.
When to much water drains out of the clothing the level rises and it drains to prevent flooding.

Rather that then some Elctrolux versions that abort the cycle when that happens.




The draining a couple minutes in is not random at all.

That happens on any PowerWash 2.0 cycle just like it happens before the pre-ironing stage.

The machine first recirculates to dump as much water as possible onto the clothing so as little as possible is drained.
The following drain is there to empty the machine down to a know state.

The following fill for the steaming is based on volume (all PowerWash equipped machines have a flow meter) since the water level is so low the pressure switch can't pick that up.




The glitchy programming is there, yes, and I will see how Miele handles that.
Up to now no manufacturer I encountered did anything about it when I brought it up.

Booked a technician for mid of March, hopefully I'll be abled to be here for that.
Might have to rebook that for a later date if the lockdwon gets extended (I'll go back home to my parents house if I can't start working in March).


But in all honesty Miele is still the best with that.
At least the issues aren't downright dangerous or make certain things unusable.

Again, I can run boilwash cycles as I wish to, just can't have the cooldown selected.


IMO still better then for example:
a) My LG that just made TurboWash with extra rinse unusable
b) Our Panasonic that allowed you to open the door after a boilwash before the cooldown
c) The Samsung I had that often ended up with dry laundry on large loads at the end of the prewash
d) The generation of BSH machines that used the same amount of energy on Cottons 40 and 60 (the normal versions btw., not Eco)
e) The generation of BSH machines that had the same usage for both full and half load on some cycles (no joke, actually happend in a test conducted by our consumer reports equivalent).




F20 is correlated to a sticky heating relay. Not heared of that that often, but hey...

I have heared that electronics are certainly not the same as before.
I myself wouldn't be surprised if they outsourced a lot of stuff.
And they had some quite known issues for the first couple of years (the spring thing, heating issues, drum quality issues etc.).

But so far from my impression the faults are still WAY less common compared to any other brand.

BSH machines have burnt out heaters, electronics faults and bearing issues quite early as well.




So I really like my machine, again, there is a reason I went back to a W1 with PowerWash.

If somebody is looking for a good machine with 1600rpm, it's either Beko for the low end, AEG for the mid-price and Miele for the high price bracket I recomend.
Though I honestly don't see the reason in todays market to spend more then 400€ on a washer except if you go up there to Miele.

Aynthing mid-priced has the same weak points (electronics, bearings in sealed tubs and performance).

It really is just a gamble if you are lucky or not, no matter which brand.

Post# 1109407 , Reply# 15   2/24/2021 at 12:21 (1,149 days old) by washerguy02 (Manchester )        
BSH bearing issues

washerguy02's profile picture
My Bosch machine is 5 years old and the bearings are as smooth as day 1 so I have to disagree with the Bosch bearings being rubbish

Janak

Post# 1109409 , Reply# 16   2/24/2021 at 13:05 (1,149 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Never said they were rubbish.

Just that they are sealed tub units now as well (depending on model) and that I have seen machines no older than 5 years with broken spiders or bearings.

Post# 1109506 , Reply# 17   2/25/2021 at 11:11 (1,148 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
PowerWash heating timing

 I've been watching some of my lectures back which I did on the bathroom floor on my tablet.
What you do when you get a new washer.



I was washing a small load of T-Shirts and underwear.

Load was pretty much exactly half drum, so 3.5kg maybe, 8lbs or so?

Cycle was Cotton 40C short with extra rinse.




Without PowerWash heating would have been about 15-20min.


These were the timings, starting with the first long heat stage to get the water to steaming temp (80 or so degrees).

Total time: 24:41.90
1, ‎3 ‎44,62
2, ‎0 ‎59,40
3, ‎0 ‎57,10
4, ‎0 ‎56,99
5, ‎0 ‎52,51
6, ‎0 ‎56,99
7, ‎0 ‎50,68
8, ‎0 ‎57,82
9, ‎0 ‎50,09
10, ‎0 ‎59,87
11, ‎0 ‎47,21
12, ‎1 ‎01,58
13, ‎0 ‎45,55
14, ‎0 ‎58,49
15, ‎0 ‎45,76
16, ‎0 ‎58,36
17, ‎0 ‎42,51
18, ‎1 ‎00,67
19, ‎0 ‎42,31
20, ‎1 ‎02,30
21, ‎0 ‎42,02
22, ‎1 ‎03,08
23, ‎0 ‎41,01
24, ‎1 ‎03,02
25, ‎0 ‎21,24
26, ‎0 ‎00,62

That last one is me hitting the wrong button.

The times with heater off go up significantly, as expected.

Heating times go down significantly over the cycles which is kind of surprising to me.
I would have guessed they'd stay pretty much unchanged given that they are probably temperature gated (like 60 heater on, 85 heater off).

I suppose my assumption that the lower temperature gradient wouldn't impact temperature rise during heating was wrong.



The basic thing here is that as the laundry heats up it takes longer and longer for heat to be deposited on the clothing.
Thus the water in the sump cools slower.
(Heat transfer rate is dependent on temperature gradient.)




The load of bedding I ran yesterday was pretty large yet defaulted to PW.

That showed one of things about PW cycles:
Heating is much slower, about half for high temperature cycles.

That load (3 sets of bedding) took a good hour to heat.



There are a few offsets.

Main wash time can be shorter as detergent concentration is higher.

Detergent is better utilised (slower temperature climb utilises enzymes and such better).

Temperature is usually higher then on a full fill cycle, the machine rather overshoots by a few degrees.



Energy usage is still less.

Heater on time is less then 50% during heating overall.
Thus even twice the time to temp is more efficient.





That is also why it is only used up to 60C.

Above that heating times become way longer, should be exponential actually.

Post# 1111119 , Reply# 18   3/12/2021 at 18:10 (1,133 days old) by miele4life (UK )        

I much as I love Miele, it seems some recent models are going backwards in their designs, programming not as good as it should be and probably not quite as reliable either, at least my Platinum 6 model is still going perfectly!

As for some models not having a separate rinse programme, that's nothing compared to some recently launched entry-level WT1 washer dryers with some glaring omissions from the features list, see if you can spot them with this UK model, I don't think it's worth paying £1400 for it in my opinion :)

CLICK HERE TO GO TO miele4life's LINK
Post# 1111478 , Reply# 19   3/15/2021 at 10:26 (1,130 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Technician was here

 Senior technician with his apprentice.
Very nice guys.

Saw the error codes in storage, checked the valves.
Those ran fine (of course).



Installed a software update.

Of course couldn't check the fault itself (can't wait an hour for it to come up to temp).





And it still happens.

I'll record a quick YouTube video once I have another boil wash load an will get back to them.

Post# 1111482 , Reply# 20   3/15/2021 at 10:49 (1,130 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
The feature thing

 I looked at the new washer dryer entry range and it is pretty bare bones.

So is my machine: It's the cheapest base machine with PowerWash and 1600rpm.




These entry machines do compromise on the feature set.

2 ways marketing goes about this.




First of most people don't actually care.

They slashed the prewash and separate rinse cycle on the washer dryers.

Which sounds horrific for most people who care about laundry.


However on the Hotpoint side, washers without a prewash have been successfully selling for a decade and more now.

Most people NEVER even use the additional rinse programm.

So slashing that while keeping the key features (short, delicate drying, high spin) gives a good entry machine for many.

And for them, they save by for example using the smaller drum, ditching the WPS and the second pump for PowerWash to still get that margin.





Second off:

They wanted to get a better entry position price wise.

They knew that walking past the cheapest Miele washer dryer at over 1500€ would scare many off.
They wouldn't even wanna know about them at that price point.
So no chance even starting a talk about them.

Now, the cheapest machine starts at 1399€ (so 1299€ retail).
They still have Miele as a brand in their head.
And sure it is 400€ more to comparable higher end machines.
But quality.

From there if they are interested you got a starting point.




You can then lead them on to Miele's advantages and compare that to other machines (like Bosch's offerings).

The better moisture sensing.
Lower water usage during drying.
Better laundry care over all.




They did the same with their DW (Active with the upgrade path to AutoOpen), their ovens (the 2000 series that doesn't offer PyroFit even though it totally could) and their coffee makers (5000 series with the upgrade path to more functions and physically bigger machines).
Higher quality.
Flexibility (programming).



And then if they say they would be ready to invest that extra money you can talk about the upgrade to the 1 line display machine or even the M-Touch.

Then you can ask the questions like if they would need these additional options (more cycles, pre wash), the PowerWash or the TwinDos.

Post# 1114797 , Reply# 21   4/16/2021 at 15:13 (1,098 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Just for giggles

 I timed heating on the "worst case scenario" for PW.

Load was 3/4 full of heavy towels on Cottons 60C.

I'll explain what I think might be going on in a second post in a minute.

This timing is from the first moment the heater is engaged to very last deactivation.
Given the load should have pulled the max of 8l of water for saturation, there shouldn't be a much longer heating stage for PW cycles.

Time total: 53:37.36

Odd numbers are heater on.
Even numbers heater off.

1, ‎0 ‎19,65
2, ‎0 ‎10,13
3, ‎3 ‎41,90
4, ‎1 ‎04,34
5, ‎0 ‎49,89
6, ‎0 ‎56,07
7, ‎0 ‎47,91
8, ‎1 ‎00,65
9, ‎0 ‎47,34
10, ‎0 ‎54,24
11, ‎0 ‎43,32
12, ‎0 ‎59,04
13, ‎0 ‎45,68
14, ‎1 ‎00,54
15, ‎0 ‎44,15
16, ‎0 ‎59,98
17, ‎0 ‎42,41
18, ‎0 ‎49,85
19, ‎0 ‎35,85
20, ‎0 ‎59,25
21, ‎0 ‎38,94
22, ‎1 ‎00,57
23, ‎0 ‎39,64
24, ‎1 ‎02,63
25, ‎0 ‎38,80
26, ‎0 ‎58,20
27, ‎0 ‎39,67
28, ‎1 ‎06,05
29, ‎0 ‎39,53
30, ‎1 ‎05,94
31, ‎0 ‎35,61
32, ‎1 ‎02,66
33, ‎0 ‎34,82
34, ‎0 ‎59,77
35, ‎0 ‎31,78
36, ‎0 ‎57,39
37, ‎0 ‎34,37
38, ‎1 ‎32,45
39, ‎1 ‎20,13
40, ‎1 ‎25,45
41, ‎0 ‎38,38
42, ‎1 ‎10,92
43, ‎0 ‎40,87
44, ‎1 ‎16,79
45, ‎0 ‎37,27
46, ‎1 ‎11,10
47, ‎0 ‎35,68
48, ‎1 ‎14,27
49, ‎0 ‎36,65
50, ‎1 ‎12,37
51, ‎0 ‎35,12
52, ‎1 ‎12,56
53, ‎0 ‎34,30
54, ‎1 ‎12,77
55, ‎0 ‎34,26
56, ‎1 ‎20,67
57, ‎0 ‎32,66
58, ‎1 ‎18,48
59, ‎0 ‎04,24
60, ‎0 ‎01,16



Post# 1114799 , Reply# 22   4/16/2021 at 15:38 (1,098 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        

chachp's profile picture

 

This is my Rinse/Spin.  I had the closed tap (not sure exactly what it said) once when the machine was new.  Haven't had it since.  The WiFi on mine is OK but takes so long to connect sometimes and other times it's pretty quick.  I do most from the console and use the app more to monitor what's going on.  Overall, I am happy with mine.  Going on about a year now.  It's the best cleaning machine I've ever had.  I thought my Bosch Axxis+ was the best but I like this one even better.
  View Full Size
Post# 1114800 , Reply# 23   4/16/2021 at 15:44 (1,098 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Just had to grab my laptop

 So, I wrote an E-Mail to Miele service a couple of weeks ago with my findings regarding the cooldown issue.
No reply, didn't expect one.
Gonna give up on ever having a cool down feature on this washer.

It is what it is...





Now onto my final analysis of PW2.0 heating.

I wanted to time this worst case scenario as it displays some of the more interesting implications of what is going on while heating.

The main wash is designed to last basically eactly 90min from the moment heating begins until first drain.
Short on 60C basically eliminates all post heating washing, I think like 5min before dilution are left in.

If the load is very absorbent - like in this case - the machine can actually run the full load rinse pattern after a PW2.0 main wash.
The machine senses the absorbency while filling for the dilution during the last minutes of the wash. If it is higher than expected for a partial load it will add some time after the interim spin and run a rinse and spin pattern like it was a large load washed without PW.
Very nice for loads like towels.





Now onto heating.



The first 30sec are always 20sec heater on, 10sec heater on.
That is true for any steam phase, so pre ironing aswell.

I assume this is some form of calibration.
Either sensing current or temperature increase to adapt and counteract voltage fluctuations.



Then the first long heating is needed to get the water up to steaming temp - I'd guess around 80-85C.

This heating is temperature bounded both upper and lower.

So heater disengages around that 80C top boundary and disengages around the lower temp.

That lower temp is certainly above 55C.
The "Stop&Add" feature is relativley "dumb" so to say; during the mainwash it is only limited by the temperature sensed by the NTC in the tub and water level.
So if it would drop below 55C, you can pause and open the door.

My best guess would be it is actually much higher (like 70C or so).





Next you have to understand that there are 2 distinct halfs cut of by cycles 38, 39 and 40.

That is where the machine added some water.
Really not much, a glass full maybe.

That is done due to evaporation transferring water from the sump to the load.

38 is where it paused for like 20sec, added the water.
39 is where the machine had to get the new water up to temp.
40 is where that additional water has the greatest ability to transfer heat.




Cause there are several dynaimcs working towards and against each other that only come out during this long heating stint.

At first, the tub isn't quite heated up yet and the laundry is cool.

As the tub gets to water temperature, the heating time drops rapidly.
It settles in between 40 and 30 sec for each heating interval.



Next you'll see the time with the heater off first increases and then slowly decreases.

That first increase is as everything slowly increases in temperature.





But then, both times drop more less in unison.

As water evaporates from the sump, there is less thermal mass.

This means it both takes less time to heat up the water in the sump and it takes less time for the temp to drop since there is less energy to be transfered.





Once the machine upped the water level in the sump again, the time between heating goes up again significantly while the heating time itself levels at around 40-30sec.





At lower temps, evaporation plays a significantly lower role in that heating time.

Any more water that needs to be heated and the time goes up so much it becomes unreasonable and less efficent.

That's also the reason that system saves more at lower temps.

While for full load vs half load on Cottons 40C you get a reduction of about 40% in energy usage, at 60C you get a split of maybe 25%.

Washing full loads is still much more efficient, but from my previous machine that had EcoFeedback, I can attest that PW saves a good 10-20% on partial loads.

Post# 1126001 , Reply# 24   8/17/2021 at 10:17 (975 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Software Update

 So, I got an update a couple of days ago.

That fixed the cool down issue.



Apparently all cycles at 20C or cold now no longer run PW.

I rarely use those, but sometimes my darks are just very lightly soiled, and then I sometimes use a long Cotton's 20C.
Was kinda confused why it wasn't starting in PW mode today, checked my settings, then started it at 30C and it did it.

So I guess that 20C either just defaults to that for some performance reason or it checks room temp like the sensor drying on their DW does.
If the room is 20C or above, laundry will inevitably get to 20C without heating.

Post# 1126028 , Reply# 25   8/17/2021 at 16:17 (975 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Could the machine just heat to 20c without using powerwash, since it is a low temperature?

Post# 1126049 , Reply# 26   8/17/2021 at 17:57 (975 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
PowerWash

And on my WWH860, my PW only works on 20/Cold.

Post# 1126105 , Reply# 27   8/18/2021 at 05:15 (974 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

I would assume that just by the nature of things, they would use PW whenever possible when heating is required.

And it did use it on 20C beforehand.
Never washed in plain cold - my cold water ist just to frigid even in summer here at the coast.


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