Thread Number: 87159  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Miele USA W1's Water Inlet Error After Prewash
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Post# 1117262   5/14/2021 at 20:21 (378 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Be warned that use of prewash may result in a water inlet error and end the cycle. Those with W1's please test and report back on results. It will happen after prewash drain and start of wash fill. Others reporting same issue. Error only happens in this situation. Miele not cooperating PERIOD!

Post# 1117266 , Reply# 1   5/14/2021 at 21:47 (378 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Miele Appliances In The US

combo52's profile picture

Are like buying a Mercedes Benz with no decent service organization, can be a big waste of money along with lots of frustration, the good news is they are not as expensive as a MB so the loss will not be as bad when you buy another appliance.

 

The number of Miele DWs, W&Ds we see on the scrap pile every month is amazing considering how small a % of the market they have in the US.

 

John  L.


Post# 1117273 , Reply# 2   5/14/2021 at 23:05 (378 days old) by Miele4Life (Reading, UK )        

that sounds terrible, my Miele most certainly doesn't do that on the Prewash cycle, it's strange to think that the W1 range that launched in 2013 still hasn't ironed out the programming bugs and that makes me increasingly wary about them, especially in the long term, it just makes my blood boil because I've always seen Miele as such a reputable brand and for them to do that is just unacceptable for the price. :(

Post# 1117283 , Reply# 3   5/15/2021 at 04:58 (378 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
No issue here.

chachp's profile picture

 

I don't use the PreWash often instead I use the Soak fairly often.  So, I am running a load now including a PreWash.  It went directly into the Main Wash after the PreWash drain with no issue.  It's finishing the cycle now and I'll report back if there are any other issues but so far, so good.


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Post# 1117292 , Reply# 4   5/15/2021 at 07:23 (378 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Water inlet issue

Have similar story running over here but with the cool down instead of my pre wash.



Miele pulled my line of models a couple of weeks ago.

Had a technician in my home with no hope.
He updated the machines firmware but no change.




Miele will help you sooner or later.

Calling a technician is the only option there.

Easiest as well to have a video handy.


Post# 1117310 , Reply# 5   5/15/2021 at 12:02 (378 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

@chachp

Do you have a "Classic" ?


Post# 1117313 , Reply# 6   5/15/2021 at 12:52 (378 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

disregard ...Classic has no wifi.

Post# 1117320 , Reply# 7   5/15/2021 at 15:22 (378 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I've had my 860 Miele washer for two years and have not experienced this error or any other error on any cycle. I hope this problem gets resolved for you.

Post# 1117326 , Reply# 8   5/15/2021 at 17:24 (378 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

Pretty certain these issues occur on a new revision of these machines.




The W1 machines used to all have a water diverter driven by a motor, similar to the W3000 series.

My machine most certainly does not.

2 things you notice:
1) Usually, with water diverter, when switching from one chamber to another, there is a pause and you here the geared motor humming, clicking as it turns through the positions.
Here, on my machine, there is no noise and instant switching.
2) The door jet used to have its own position on the diverter, so no water would run through the dispenser when water is patched to it.
On mine, prewash and door jet are running always at the same time. Water pressure is really low for the door jet as a result.




Am most certain that was done as a cost cutting measure and most certain that system uses the typical 2 valve setup (water is diverted by the 2 jets deflecting each other to the third chamber).




However that still shows up as a water diverter to the service program.

So I guess they just adapted the water diverter programming for that new setup.

And they did good.
Except for some special circumstances.



I guess in the US they messed up the hot water feeding after a prewash.
Over here they messed up the cool down programming option.


Post# 1117336 , Reply# 9   5/15/2021 at 19:57 (377 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Define "cooperation" from Miele

launderess's profile picture
Miele USA no longer provides any sort of tech support or assistance with diagnosing issues via telephone or email. Only option is to book a call out appointment for service.

Previously Miele USA tech support offered all sorts of assistance via telephone or email. This included walking through various testing or other attempts to sort out what was wrong, and or even assistance in installing a part. This apparently all came to an end last year or maybe year before. This coincided with (IIRC) change of management at Miele USA which in turn lead to many changes down the line.

Found this out partially from news media and also while attempting to get information on replacing timer/programmer on my Miele. Tech support now seems to be nothing more than persons (who may be offshore) reading from scripts and they can only book service calls. When inquired as to why Miele stopped offering tech support via telephone response was "it caused more trouble than it was worth..."


Post# 1117396 , Reply# 10   5/16/2021 at 15:16 (377 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

As far as I know, there are no new models of W1 being sold in the USA yet, but perhaps the WB 020 was released after the 060, 660, and 860. Derrick, what model W1 machine is having this issue?

On my machine during the rinses, except the last rinse when two shots of water are sent through the FS dispenser, the water runs down the door glass, but if you pull the dispenser tray completely out and look in the back of the compartment you can see water running down from the top into a porthole as well. I was thinking this meant that the washer was filling in the bottom of the drum as well from across the door, but I cannot confirm that. On some first rinses in some cycles, all of the water enters via the bottom and none across the door. Don't know why.

I use a prewash on white items every wash day but cannot remember hearing the diverter valve moving between the prewash and wash - a thing I don't pay attention to but next time I'll be sure to listen for it.


Post# 1117417 , Reply# 11   5/16/2021 at 20:15 (376 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Pre-wash?

launderess's profile picture
Why do you use it routinely on every white cycle? Or maybe I shouldn't ask? *LOL*

Since my two AEG washers are cold fill don't bother with pre-wash unless have something really heavily soiled and want bulk of muck removed before main wash. Otherwise find normal wash cycles (long as they are) perfectly adequate.


Post# 1117418 , Reply# 12   5/16/2021 at 20:16 (376 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Others on the Houzz Laundry Room Forum seem to have this issue with the water inlet error after the prewash and start of wash portion. I am not a member there, may have to find out more and subscribe to forum.

It appears that reports are from USA W1's except the Classic. Not in great numbers but carbon copy issue. I have the 060. Prewash unusable.


Post# 1117431 , Reply# 13   5/16/2021 at 22:53 (376 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
For those so inclined to read: www.houzz.com/discussions...

Post# 1117486 , Reply# 14   5/17/2021 at 15:54 (376 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Thanks, Derrick, I'll check the forum and read other experiences of the problem. I generally use a prewash when washing whites because I tend to nick myself when shaving resulting in blood spots, plus I wear tight white underwear. The prewash is a cold fill so I figure that is good for protein stains and blood. So far nothing has become a set-in stain.

Post# 1117488 , Reply# 15   5/17/2021 at 16:23 (376 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
@Jerrod

chachp's profile picture

 

I am happy to hear the PreWash comes in as cold.  Do you know what temperature the machine uses on the Soak cycle?  I use that more often but always wondered what temp it used.  I may have to start using the PreWash with Extra White on my whites instead of the Extra White with a Soak.

 

For years I had a Bosch machine that had an option called Power Wash and what that did was bring in cold water and then gradually raise the temperature slowly to the selected temperature.  I liked that cycle for stains that remove better in cold but I don't want to do an entire cold water wash.


Post# 1117489 , Reply# 16   5/17/2021 at 16:40 (376 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

EU machines heat the prewash to about 30C or 86F, but hot fill machines usually use plain cold for fill as well over here.

Soak is performed in plain cold over here IIRC.

Soak also uses the wool-equivalent drum rhythm I think, pre-wash uses a normal tumble pattern.
Soak over here also does not drain after soaking, prewash drains and does a short spin.




Manuals suggest to use Soak for stubborn stains.
Older manuals mentioned that it would be more economical.

Prewash was ment for large amounts of soil (sand, grit, such).

Soak could be adjusted from 30min up to 2h.



Nowadays you often only have Pre-wash over here, but you can extend the Pre-wash by up to 36min in 9min increments bringing the Pre-wash time up to about an hour, replacing Soak.


Post# 1117538 , Reply# 17   5/18/2021 at 03:20 (375 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Thank you!

chachp's profile picture

 

Here the PreWash does drain and use fresh detergent for the wash and the time can be adjusted.  The Soak does not drain.  It goes directly into the Main Wash.  I can adjust the length of the Soak time up to six hours.  I have my Soak set for one hour which is what I was used to in the Bosch I had.  I like that the Miele goes directly into the Main Wash after the soak cycle.  In the Bosch, the Soak cycle was completely separate so when it was done I had to restart the washer with the wash cycle.


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Post# 1117556 , Reply# 18   5/18/2021 at 11:22 (375 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
Normal cycle

I've discovered that when selecting normal, the machine will go through prewash and advance without a hiccup. So far, Extra White and Sanitize throw a water inlet code on my 860. Will be calling Miele today and report what they say.

Post# 1117569 , Reply# 19   5/18/2021 at 15:26 (375 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
Add Laundry

Always get the Water Inlet error when attempting to Add laundry.
Got it frequently because there is air in our lines and had to go into menu and activate Low Water Pressure setting for it to stop cancelling the cycles.


Post# 1117570 , Reply# 20   5/18/2021 at 15:32 (375 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
I must have a good one!

chachp's profile picture

 

I say this as I knock on wood, but I haven't had any of these issues.  Our PSI is around 75 last time I checked and I wonder how much that had to do with others having issues.


Post# 1117574 , Reply# 21   5/18/2021 at 15:58 (375 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
Miele support

Well, the phone support was as helpful as a glass hammer, and the lady I spoke with, although very nice, was absolutely clueless. I set up a tech visit.

Post# 1117637 , Reply# 22   5/19/2021 at 09:41 (374 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

@chachp

My washer drains into a laundry sink so I can see and feel the water used for each portion of a cycle. I'll start a short soak and see what the water temperature is at the end.


Post# 1117651 , Reply# 23   5/19/2021 at 10:55 (374 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Thanks for posts. Water pressure is not my issue. Miele knows there is a problem and has admitted to others there is a problem with the W1's. Customer service and tech support/dispatch obviously needs some major help here in the United States. Enough said.

Post# 1117810 , Reply# 24   5/20/2021 at 14:02 (373 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I did a load of cotton summer shorts using the Wrinkle-Free cycle and decided to try the soak option. I selected Warm+ or 104F. The washer started to fill with hot water, then switched to cold. It took 1 or 2 more fills and turned the heater on for a bit. It tumbled slowly for a few minutes then started soaking, tumbling, and spraying periodically. No heater was on during the actual soaking period, but it turned on as soon as the wash started, and cycled on and off throughout the wash.


So for the soak, I guess the washer tries to start with a temperature close to the temperature you have selected for the wash even though there is no heater in use during most of the soak.


Post# 1117814 , Reply# 25   5/20/2021 at 14:50 (373 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Thanks for the update

chachp's profile picture

 

So it sounds like I need to do a PreWash if I want to start with cold and then work up to the selected temp.  This is good to know.  And when I think about it, I don't mind the idea that I get fresh water and detergent at the start of the wash.  Thank you.


Post# 1117819 , Reply# 26   5/20/2021 at 16:12 (373 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
That would make sense.

My older Miele and many other European H-axis washers used their heaters to raise temp of pre-wash to at least 86F or 104F. They do this however obviously only if thermostat isn't satisfied either incoming water temp, and or that in tub isn't at or above whatever temp. When this Miele turns on or off heater there is a very audible "thunk", so can tell when it's engaged or turned off.

If a washer is both hot and cold fill then it makes sense to use a blend of tap water to get "warm" or whatever. If that cannot be achieved then heater kick in to top things off.

Both my AEG washers are cold fill only. If incoming water is warmer than what is programmed to be normal, and thus heating parameters get confused, these washers will subtract heating portion of cycle time (usually about ten minutes) from cycle.

Display will read "60 minutes" remaining, but soon as water drains and or filling begins for first rinse that changes to "50 minutes" or something.

On older Miele and other European washing machines with "rapid advance" mechanical timers it was suggested that once machine reached proper temp during heating portion of cycle (again listening for sound thermostat was switched off), one could move timer knob slightly and it would come out of heating portion of cycle into main. This was done to save time.....

Curious thing about those older washers is they would take on water if sensed water level had dropped, and use heater if necessary to bring things back up to temp. At least my AEG modern washers don't do this; once machine has moved out of fill portion of cycle that's all she wrote. They won't take on more water even if it's obvious load requires further saturation. What you'll get is a reading indicating over loading.


Post# 1117886 , Reply# 27   5/21/2021 at 09:54 (372 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        
@Chachp

In the winter when my water temperature is around 39F and I do a prewash the entire fill is in cold water. When the washer drains into my laundry sink the water is warm. It is not 104F but it feels like it might be between,95F and 100F. I have my machine plugged into a Kill-o-watt meter so I can look at the amps consumed in real-time and know when the heater is engaged.

Post# 1117887 , Reply# 28   5/21/2021 at 10:53 (372 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
@Jerrod

chachp's profile picture

 

If I want to use a cycle that starts with cold water and then gradually heats the water the temp chosen which one would I use?  I wish I could find a document (as I'm sure many do) that explains what happens throughout each cycle.  It seems to be a closely guarded secret for some reason or maybe they think people don't care to know it.


Post# 1117903 , Reply# 29   5/21/2021 at 13:33 (372 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
@Chachp

You could go to settings and select cold fill. Keep in mind, the machine will continue doing full profile washes until you re-select hot fill for main wash again.

Post# 1117908 , Reply# 30   5/21/2021 at 15:49 (372 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

You could do as Washingpowder suggests or you can add a prewash to the program, since the prewash starts with a cold fill, heats the water to about warm, and then the next fill will take in hot water, and depending on your incoming water temperature the heater will take the temp to the setting and then maintain the temperature throughout the wash.

Keep in mind that you will not get much heating in the Normal program - at least I don't. On my machine, the heater runs for the first 13 minutes of the wash and is never heard from again during the wash. This may not matter if you are supplying 120F water and then I guess the heater will run for a total of 13 minutes throughout the wash. Since I am not supplying 120F I don't really use the Normal program for much of anything, plus I don't want to spin everything at 1600rpms.


Post# 1117957 , Reply# 31   5/22/2021 at 09:12 (371 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

It really seems Miele is not going to do a thing about this. Just add it to the list of feature crippled W1's. Maybe they will just hide the prewash feature in the hidden settings menu and act like it is not there at all. Other countries have programming settings easily accessible, not here. We are not so stupid after all here in the USA, we discovered the prewash no longer works. It is just a matter of time they will take away water plus and max rinse levels from USA W1's. You know the features we are not allowed to access.

Post# 1117959 , Reply# 32   5/22/2021 at 09:46 (371 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Slow down a bit...

You're spinning a story that's just not there.

If they didn't want you to have a prewash, they wouldn't have it, period. It's not like it's a common feature in the US.
Claiming melavalance seems a far reach.
And they certainly won't respond better if you tell them that.
(Working in customer service for a retailer handling cases in store I can tell you I empathize on the issue there, but not on that claim. If a customer is upset about service issues, I totally agree with him an give my best. If he claims we do that on purpose and threatens me with such claims, I take that personally.)

The reason some settings are hidden in a service menu is that they are not ment to be needed.
They exist as a relict for special cases. They alter cycles in ways that may not be beneficial to everyone.
There are settings in there that are capable of basically bricking a machine.

So they placed them on one level, not ment to be activated without technician consultation.

And they are not new.
They are there since the Novotronic days...

They won't take away water plus, they won't take away max rinse level.
Just like the Allergy option never was in the user accessible level, the max rinse level will never leave it.



Yes they are currently pretty slacking with quality control though, that is true.

Easiest way is always to make hell break loose.
They offered a feature, that feature is not usable, the manufacturer dosen't resolve the matter, thus you can always push to reverse the contract on basis of false pretence.

They will check out the machine with a technician first, they will confirm the fault.
They won't be abled to resolve it, then they offer a replacement - usually a model one level higher.




Not sure if I missed something, but you haven't even had a technician out, right?


Post# 1117966 , Reply# 33   5/22/2021 at 11:21 (371 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

A Miele tech is coming next week. Not sure if there is much that can be done. If firmware not ready then I will cancel. No sign that it is yet.

Post# 1117974 , Reply# 34   5/22/2021 at 13:00 (371 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Wouldn't cancel either way

Every time they visit without resolving your issue you have an additional card in your hand you can point to when trying to get higher levels involved.

Turning them away with they argument "I know they won't help" will ALWAYS be used against you by service.



Just speaking from experience there, not the first time I hear such things...


Post# 1117986 , Reply# 35   5/22/2021 at 17:01 (371 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Initial call out from Miele almost usually now for years has been to diagnose and document whatever issues customer is reporting or otherwise found.

If the problem can be manged at that time within short period of time allotted, then all is good. OTOH if technician does not have part or parts, repair will take longer than allotted initial service call time, etc.. then another follow-up call out appointment must be made.

Turning away a Miele USA tech nowadays (since they no longer provide any sort of detailed tech support via telephone or email), likely will result in an issue of "he said, we said". That is customer claims appliance isn't working properly, but Miele cannot document fact.

A customer planning on seeking a refund, exchange or other such action needs to have a Miele tech document issues found so there is a record for machine in question.


Post# 1118375 , Reply# 36   5/26/2021 at 09:58 (367 days old) by Sgt10 (California )        
Miele admitting problem?

Laundress-

The interesting this about this particular issue is in the post on another forum that you linked to above, Miele wrote a letter to the user admitting the problem. At the least according to that post, Miele wrote:

“Hello Mark,

I am happy to assist, I understand the frustration due to the pre wash cycle not working. Due to the new software update the prewash cycle has stopped working with the appliance. Germany is looking into the software and getting the issue rectified.

If you need further assistance, please contact Miele at 1-888-996-4353 or visit us online at www.mieleusa.com...

Thanks for contacting Miele!

Tichina J.
Miele Inc. | 9 Independence Way| Princeton, NJ 08540| USA www.mieleusa.com/service...

This appears unusual for Miele in that their first instinct is to blame the user, but instead they appear to admit they are at fault. And, in spite of this promising admission, they do not give a timeline for the fix, nor do they address whether the “fix” will help Mark (the user) or simply potential future Miele customers.


Post# 1118395 , Reply# 37   5/26/2021 at 13:22 (367 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
Anybody In Germany Know What's Going On With This?

Does anyone work at Miele in Germany who frequents this forum? I would like someone from there to speak up about this. How long before this issue is fixed? How could this even have happened, I thought they tested everything before letting a machine out the door. SAD!

Post# 1118408 , Reply# 38   5/26/2021 at 16:44 (367 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
@SGT20

Miele is famous for producing much of internal components of their appliances in house. But that applies to things like motors and other bits. They do buy lots of other things off the shelf as it were such as solenoids, pumps, etc....

One is going to assume unless or until proven otherwise Miele used outside sources for software for washing machines and other appliances. Much like Crouzet of France once provided programmer/timer for their quasi mechanical washing machines, dishwashers and dryers....

If that is the case it would mean going back to supplier to work out what is wrong and how to correct. Given worldwide upset across the board to nearly everything this past year or so thanks to covid, it could take longer to sort this mess out.

Was always advised when growing up never to purchase first model year of anything. This was because there were bound to be kinks, and they would be sorted by subsequent year models.

Thing is don't seem to find these sort of complaints with Miele W1 washers sold in Europe, but then again maybe didn't look long or hard enough. Since these units were on sale there before coming to USA you'd think any bugs would have been sorted. This unless as per Miele made various changes to things for sale in North America that somehow has now gummed up the works.



Post# 1118412 , Reply# 39   5/26/2021 at 18:17 (367 days old) by SGT10 (California )        

Yes, one would suspect that it must be the latter problem as the first Miele W1’s in the US certainly did not have this particular issue. So some change they made to the W1 subsequently gummed up the works. One question would be whether Miele views this specific problem as a serious one needing speedy resolution or just a minor nuisance. But perhaps your point is that either way, the timing of a solution may not be totally under their control.

Post# 1118421 , Reply# 40   5/26/2021 at 19:50 (366 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
Hot water intake

I'm fairly certain it has something to do with the North American designation of using hot water for main wash fill. I've noticed Normal cycle going through with prewash perfectly fine, at least when selecting 120F or below. Miele seems to alternate hot and warm fill when using temps of 140 and up and considering most European machines are cold fill only, that slight programming change may have produced the bug.
I'll reprogram my 860 for a cold fill only tomorrow, and see if it goes through a cycle without a problem.


Post# 1118484 , Reply# 41   5/27/2021 at 13:52 (366 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        

The tech just left.

Amazing customer service, amazing knowledge. That aside, he said that Miele is aware of the issue and they're currently working on a fix in Germany. He said he doesn't know how long it'll take, but hopefully soon. He explained they already tried doing an intermittent fix in NJ, and none of the solutions worked, hence the escalation to Germany.


Post# 1118498 , Reply# 42   5/27/2021 at 16:09 (366 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

Hoping they'll work that out...

Almost certain my issue would be fixed by the same update.



Once I'm back at my flat (end of next month maybe) I'll document the fault and contact Miele service again and see if I can get some timeline for the EU side of things...


Post# 1118511 , Reply# 43   5/27/2021 at 19:12 (365 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        

mielerod69's profile picture
@washingpowder, did the cold only fill make the cycle go right through, or did it still fault?

Post# 1118514 , Reply# 44   5/27/2021 at 19:51 (365 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
@mielerod

Decided to wash at 170F, sans prewash, and my thrifty side refused to heat that from cold. Especially considering two AC units running at turbo already.

I'll be running microfiber cloths soon using the singlewash option (less water to heat), will report right after.


Post# 1118537 , Reply# 45   5/28/2021 at 00:12 (365 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Will be interesting watching this all play out..

launderess's profile picture
Will MieleUSA charge for these call outs and repairs?

If new motherboard is required or something will that part be free along with install?

Will MieleUSA reach out to any number of Americans who bought affected models and yet haven't contacted them about this issue? Will they issue a recall or similar notice?

What about scores of washers sitting in warehouses or dealers inventory yet unsold?

A simple firmware update that solves issue would be less costly way of dealing with things, provided it permanently fixes issue.

At least affected washers still are otherwise usable. Cannot imagine what people would do if after paying so much money now would be totally without a washer for indefinite period.


Post# 1118544 , Reply# 46   5/28/2021 at 02:10 (365 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
@Launderess

Excellent questions I've been pondering myself.
Truth be told, there's a part of me regretting shelling out the big dollars, especially considering the circumstances.
Sure, a pre-wash isn't the most important thing nor does it discount how well the machine performs, but just the fact that Miele let such a mistake go unnoticed makes me wonder about the quality control of machines adapted for the US market.
Maybe F&P would have been a better choice, with their 5 year warranty.


Post# 1118555 , Reply# 47   5/28/2021 at 05:49 (365 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Other countries get longer initial warranties, and the USA a measly 1yr. This whole mess ruined our USA W1's. How they are dealing with this as of now and apparently no resolution, it screams a part/parts issue vs software/firmware. If they would just clarify which it is. They have to know by now exactly what is wrong.

Post# 1118557 , Reply# 48   5/28/2021 at 06:34 (365 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Under EU laws minimum consumer warranty is two (2) years. Some individual countries have longer requirements...

United States consumers have no such legal protections and thus are at the mercy of whatever manufactures offer.

europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/co...

This being said consumer testing or advocacy groups have found that in most instances major malfunctions with any appliance are likely to occur within first twelve months or less of use. This is one reason why many advise paying for extended warranty at time of purchase.

Also many credit or charge cards will extend original manufactures warranty period if their card was used to pay for entire purchase price.

If things reach a critical mass level then lawsuits will start flying, and or federal government will step in I suppose. Lord knows Maytag was driven into the ground over issues with their Neptune washing machines.


Post# 1118561 , Reply# 49   5/28/2021 at 08:18 (365 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan)        

jamiel's profile picture
This sounds like a sensor value is put out of "whack" with the US hot fill, and the solution can't be to ignore that sensor value (as they may well use it for a different part of the washing cycle, perhaps to specify spin speed to not crease synthetics) . The fix-scheduling of something like that, together with testing etc is undoubtedly what's taking the time.

Post# 1118595 , Reply# 50   5/28/2021 at 15:59 (365 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Just for my clarification: What temperature are you using for the main wash, when this problem occurs?

Post# 1118607 , Reply# 51   5/28/2021 at 18:14 (365 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Our Au W1s are hot and cold fill, so it’s not a US specific scenario. My older generation machine has no issues with prewash, one has been updated to its latest firmware and has no issues. I’m surprised your all using prewash that much, I generally only use it a 3-5 times a year.

If you have the text display, what about changing the country code to Au or EU and see whether you have the same issue? Obviously only do so if you are confident with manipulating these settings. Or do the US machines now come locked to the US as a country? The machines we get here, let you choose USA as a region.


Post# 1118611 , Reply# 52   5/28/2021 at 18:30 (364 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Pre-wash

launderess's profile picture
My older Miele W1070 states in owners manual that if using liquid detergents pre-wash could be skipped and just go with normal cycle. That machine was made decades ago and believe it was then standard advice which has only grown since.

Unless doing washing grossly contaminated with muck or filth, today's modern detergents and other laundry products cope remarkably well with just a wash cycle alone.

Then you have many European and other washers have "stain" programming which didn't exist previously. Electing that option on a cold fill washer (which most sold in EU are these days), slows down heating to give cool to warm water more time to shift marks before any possible high heat would set them in.

Commercial and laundromat washers normally have a short pre-wash (it varies in length and sometimes can be programmed), mostly to flush away loose soils and muck before the (often comparatively short) main wash cycle or cycles begin.

Quite honestly wash cycles on both my Lavamat washers are long enough on "normal", cannot deal with extra time added for pre-wash.

IIRC Miele over years toyed with not offering pre-wash or even soaking cycles, then bringing them back.


Post# 1118634 , Reply# 53   5/28/2021 at 21:23 (364 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

I use prewash for heavily soiled laundry. Mostly whites and a hot 140 degree wash. I do not believe we can change the region on USA W1's. Not in the service or programming menu at all.

How do you convert to a cold fill only on USA W1's? I know you have to change the setting for it. Do you keep the hot water line connected? Y adapter? Time increase for heating? I do not use automatic load sensing because the cycle times sometimes shorten too much for normal soil. The washer does not know how dirty the load is just the weight. I also use water plus third option, our water plus is not selective option just increases water level by 3 increments in wash and rinse. Other countries it is selective option also. I also use allergen option for a 3rd rinse or 4th with extra rinse.


Post# 1118708 , Reply# 54   5/29/2021 at 15:32 (364 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
It worked!

Setting the machine to cold water fill only eliminated the error. Just ran a Sanitize + pre-wash without a hiccup.
Now we know for a fact that the error comes from something related to the switching of EU cold fill only


Post# 1118716 , Reply# 55   5/29/2021 at 17:56 (364 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Congrats and good news.

Now head over to Houzz thread and spread the information. Maybe even ring up MieleUSA on Tuesday and share your findings as a good deed. Should be worth a free container of Miele laundry product of choice I would think.


Post# 1118727 , Reply# 56   5/29/2021 at 19:30 (363 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
Already spoke with my technician

He said he'll forward the info. Hope he gets some points.

@Derrick, in the settings menu under Additional Programs there's an intake modifier. One can choose either "hot for main wash" or "cold fill only". According to the manual there's no need for y-connectors, the machine won't utilize the hot water valve at all.

I use pre-wash somewhat often. E.g. stopped using paper towels in lieu of about 30 microfiber cloths. Considering they get quite soiled, I prefer to give them a bit of cool enzyme treatment before percarbonating in 170F. Same about bedding, which is heavily starched.



Post# 1118737 , Reply# 57   5/29/2021 at 21:15 (363 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Cold fill washing machines are popular and indeed mostly all one can find nowadays in Europe. This ticks off those who have access to hot water at the ready (especially if it's cheaply heated say by solar), and run to washer isn't long. But never the less view of manufactures, many consumer groups, and others is that it's best to let washer heat water to proper temp.

Both my AEG Lavamat washers are cold fill only. In fact looking at Miele W1 washers offered in Europe most seem to be cold fill only, but didn't search entire range for each country. Installation instructions clearly state washer cannot be hooked up to hot water connection.

www.manualshelf.com/manua...


Post# 1119023 , Reply# 58   6/2/2021 at 05:35 (360 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Made no difference for me last night. Error still happens with cold fill.

Post# 1119058 , Reply# 59   6/2/2021 at 14:31 (360 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Derrick

A cold fill for the wash or prewash?


Post# 1119133 , Reply# 60   6/3/2021 at 05:16 (359 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Extra White hot 140 with prewash set. Water intake set to cold as in settings pictured. Water intake setting has no effect on preventing error.

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Post# 1119167 , Reply# 61   6/3/2021 at 16:23 (359 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Thanks, Derrick.

Sorry I have no idea what is wrong. I use this program with a prewash and have not had the problem.


Post# 1119237 , Reply# 62   6/4/2021 at 08:24 (358 days old) by Washingpowder (NYC)        
@Derrick

That's really strange now. Just did a second cold-fill with pre-wash without a problem. Changed to hot fill and the error happens.

Are we possibly looking at different software bugs that result in the same error? That would be too much of a coincidence.


Post# 1119512 , Reply# 63   6/6/2021 at 16:50 (356 days old) by cyclograph (Oakland, CA, USA)        
New firmware posted?

cyclograph's profile picture
Yesterday our machine prompted on power up that there was a software update available, with the option to install now yes/no. Found this thread when I was looking to find a changelog for this update, or really any info at all for it's reason. Unaware of the current issue in this thread, I allowed it to install hoping some other feature oversights might have been fixed. Not sure if this is generally available or is maybe getting pushed in stages - perhaps by SN or age, we acquired ours in Dec 2018 FWIW.

The entire update process took about three minutes and the machine only displays a simple graphic progress bar as it downloads and installs. (I unfortunately forgot to check the network logs in time to see how big this download actually was) Upon completion the machine restarts, but in factory reset form; i.e. needs to run an empty hot wash first, and all config options have been reset to default except for the wireless connection, so make a note of your settings first if much alteration had been done.

I hadn't previously run into this prewash bug, but to date don't think I'd used that feature so can't say for sure if ours was affected. A normal wash today with prewash enabled did not result in an error, and the machine did draw hot when the main wash cycle started. This update did not, however, fix the inability to set multiple options from the console - still must be done thru the app.

When the wash day is done I'll see if I can get into the service menu and read the new version.



Post# 1119541 , Reply# 64   6/6/2021 at 20:12 (355 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
New firmware posted?

OMG one could only hope this is real and the issue fixed. Could maybe people put which USA W1 model they have please. D

Post# 1119557 , Reply# 65   6/7/2021 at 01:16 (355 days old) by cyclograph (Oakland, CA, USA)        

cyclograph's profile picture
The nameplate for this machine is:
Model WWH860, Material #10666200, Type HW21, Serial 11/14916xxxx

Firmware data from the service menu:
EPW 5004
LNG 12036
ELFU 4198
EZL 3966
EZU 3864
VarGT 100206982
VarBL 100197930
VarANW 100198007
VarSP 100245132
VT GT 100213391
EK 5243

This does appear to be different for some lines compared to similar entries posted on that houzz thread, so hopefully this is a real sign of an update. I have not been through all the features though to see if there are other changes, but nothing obvious has jumped out for this one day of use since the update.


Post# 1119691 , Reply# 66   6/8/2021 at 16:44 (354 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        
Cyclograph:

Since you have an 860 will you tell me if the update still includes the Baby Clothes Cycle. I use this in place of the Normal cycle and do not want to lose it or have its functionality reduced. I am not having the problem that's Derrick has.

Thanks


Post# 1119692 , Reply# 67   6/8/2021 at 16:45 (354 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        
Cyclograph:

Since you have an 860 will you tell me if the update still includes the Baby Clothes Cycle. I use this in place of the Normal cycle and do not want to lose it or have its functionality reduced. I am not having the problem that's Derrick has.

Thanks


Post# 1119701 , Reply# 68   6/8/2021 at 19:47 (353 days old) by Derrick352 (United States Of America)        
Baby Clothes Cycle

Why would Miele remove a cycle from the 860? At this point @cyclograph is the only one with anything such as an update at this point. How this issue is still ongoing is ridiculous period.

Miele fix my prewash!


Post# 1119808 , Reply# 69   6/9/2021 at 18:30 (352 days old) by cyclograph (Oakland, CA, USA)        

cyclograph's profile picture
AFAICT there have been no add/remove/rename of the wash programs, if there are subtle alterations to the options I've not noticed them yet.

It's worth noting that the Update function is disabled by default, so be sure to turn that on in the system options menu if you want to try receiving this. Also the machine must be wifi connected (obviously) and with the mile app & associated user registration working... at least that's what the manual says about the remote updates. Not sure if the Remote Control option also has any affect on this function, but it is enabled on ours.
As to how and when Miele is rolling this out... who knows. It seems likely they should know exactly what machines are affected by SN, so you'd think everyone in that category would receive it now or very soon. Assuming this release actually is The Fix, maybe the field techs can manually install this now too... could be worth a service call to expedite.


Post# 1119889 , Reply# 70   6/10/2021 at 16:15 (352 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Thanks, Cyclograph

I have received at least 2 updates to my 860 since I have had it, but I think at least one was only to the WiFi module. When the update is available there will be a notification in the phone app. I just used the machine and no update, so I will be on the lookout.


Post# 1119897 , Reply# 71   6/10/2021 at 17:36 (352 days old) by jkbff (Happy Rock, ND)        

jkbff's profile picture
I love how there is always one post that will forever accompany a Miele related thread without proffering any support.... It blows my mind.


Anyways. What is the fault code so I can do some digging?

I haven't sold any of the W1s but I have all of the service materials for them.


Post# 1119898 , Reply# 72   6/10/2021 at 18:00 (352 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
@cyclograph

Thank you for sharing information. My W1 is ready for any update via wifi.

Post# 1123586 , Reply# 73   7/18/2021 at 14:08 (314 days old) by bbjwvr6 (Providence, RI USA)        
Miele Replaced WWH 860 WCS- due to Prewash/Add Laundry Error

So I found this thread a little while back and was waiting for a resolution with my appliance vendor/Miele. I took delivery of a W1 WWH 860 WCS in February and immediately had the Prewash and Add Laundry errors. Over the last six months Miele had my appliance vendor replace both pumps and both control boards, during multiple diagnostic and repair trips. When I saw this thread pop up a couple months ago, I realized it was a problem for many. My machine was connected to the internet and never got any updates.

Finally, Miele approved a new machine a couple weeks ago, coincidentally just as they were rolling out updates to the W1 line. The equivalent of the WWH 860, the WXI 860, now occupies the second tier under the new top-of-the-line WXR 860, which appears to differ only in the new full touch display. I chose the WXI as I felt it was easier to walk up and select the cycle with a dial and press start, then to dig into menus.

So far, so good. I have not been able to create any water intake errors. So it looks like a new machine solves the issue.

Differences between the new machine and the old seem minimal:

1) Wrinkle Free has been replaced on the dial with Proofing
2) TwinDOS defaults to Whites on Normal cycle (??)
3) A new AllergyWash extra option
4) There's a new section in the manual about PowerWash. I never noticed PowerWash working with the WWH, but now on certain cycles (eg Normal) on small loads a jet comes on and sprays into the load while the drum is spinning at medium speed. Not to be confused with the jet that spray on the glass. Maybe this was active before and I never notcied it.
5) Selecting more than one option from the display is still not possbile, and the suggestion that you can select more than one option has been removed from the manual. You can still select as many as you want from the app.
6) Dress Shirts now defaults to having a SteamFinish
7) There's more cycle information in the manual now. Certain cycles add rinses if needed. Maybe this existed before, but now it's documented.

In any event, if you have the water inlet issue, I suggest you press for a replacement machine. If you have the WWH 860, you should be able to get the new top of the line with the full touch display (WXR) if that floats your boat.


Post# 1123629 , Reply# 74   7/19/2021 at 09:10 (313 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Mercedes Benz USA

has an excelent dealer and service network. Miele appliances are sold here by USA aplliance, Noble appliance, Trevarow, Hawthorne appliance, Seargent appliance, and Big Georges in Ann Arbor. Miele headquarters in N.J. lists service and parts providers.


Post# 1123635 , Reply# 75   7/19/2021 at 10:59 (313 days old) by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 1123638 , Reply# 76   7/19/2021 at 11:25 (313 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
MB and Miele Service

chachp's profile picture

 

Well, luckily I haven't had to use Miele Service yet but I'm told by the local company I shouldn't have any issue getting service if I need it.  I bought an extended policy through them.  When I bought my BOSCH washer and dryer from them in 2002 (no one else sold them here back then) I had to use them a few times for service and I was very pleased.

 

As far as MB service is concerned, I have no issues with them either.  They will come and get the car and drop off a loaner if needed, etc.  Other than scheduled maintenance we haven't had to use their service much either.   Very happy with this dealership.

 

I think what it boils down to is whether or not you have a good dealership and/or a store that values servicing their customers well.  We are lucky here on both for a small city.


Post# 1124010 , Reply# 77   7/24/2021 at 16:33 (308 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 1124011 , Reply# 78   7/24/2021 at 16:34 (308 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

If Proofing has replaced Winkle-Free where did that cycle go on the dial?

Post# 1124042 , Reply# 79   7/25/2021 at 00:52 (307 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        

On the WXI 860, Wrinkle-Free went to the MORE PROGRAMS.
I can’t believe that Proofing would be used more than Wrinkle-Free. I wonder what their logic was?


CLICK HERE TO GO TO Stephen's LINK


Post# 1124043 , Reply# 80   7/25/2021 at 01:31 (307 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        



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Post# 1124080 , Reply# 81   7/25/2021 at 12:19 (307 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Beats me. I use wrinkle-free every washday since it will wash light to medium soiled cotton items just fine while using higher water in the wash and rinses.

Post# 1124730 , Reply# 82   8/2/2021 at 05:53 (299 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
@Bbjwvr6

I’m curious if cycle times on your new WXI 860 are different than the WWH 860, and how much time PowerWash shaves off that time.

The WWH uses PowerWash only on Cold Washes, and only on Normal, WF, and Delicate; however you won’t find ANY mention of PW in the WWH manual. It also doesn’t appear to use a sensor as it uses it on all size loads.

I love that your WXI gives actual energy and water usage, or is supposed to, if I read that correctly.

PS. I recently sent an email to Miele customer service asking why my WWH only uses PowerWash on Cold Washes and they sent me a YouTube video of what PW was.


Post# 1124766 , Reply# 83   8/2/2021 at 18:07 (299 days old) by bbjwvr6 (Providence, RI USA)        

I really can’t say whether cycle times are different with the WXI, as it seems like they’re dependent on a number of variables.

I would say that I don’t think PowerWash is designed to speed the cycle so much as use less energy. Download the WXI manual and read page 56. It activates on Normal (sm & med loads), wrinkle free, dress shirts, and delicates. The idea is that the top jet spraying on the load allows the machine to use less water for smaller loads. This means that less water needs to be heated (yes, the water heater is sctive on the normal cycle) and thus saves energy. From that description it makes no sense to have it active on large cold loads.

Not sure about energy usage readings as for me it is what it is.


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Post# 1124773 , Reply# 84   8/2/2021 at 20:30 (298 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Power wash simply sounds like a variation of "energy saver" setting on my AEG and other European washers.

When selected "energy saver" uses slightly less water for washing, but the top recirculation spray is engaged throughout wash cycle. This allows lower water consumption which in turn means less energy is used due to lower volume of said wash water.


Post# 1124849 , Reply# 85   8/3/2021 at 19:06 (297 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Powerwash

It seems to be a very odd implementation if cap dosing, prewash, extra rinse or no final spin are selected.

I would have thought that cap dosing would have no effect on the ability to apply powerwash to the load.

As for prewash, surely a higher level prewash followed by a reasonably efficient spin, would then allow the machine to recalibrate for the mainwash. And since the load is already nearly saturated, a modicum of fresh water would then be added along with the detergent.

I can't understand what bearing an extra rinse has on the ability to do the powerwash washing process.

One would expect selecting 'no final spin' would merely omit the final spin.

I wonder which idiots at Miele programmed that arrangement?


Post# 1124854 , Reply# 86   8/3/2021 at 19:37 (297 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
To clarify PowerWash

mielerod69's profile picture
If you select cap dosing for detergent or booster, PowerWash is deactivated to flush detergent and booster through at certain times in the cycle.
The extra rinse function may be like Water plus which deactivates PowerWash in the European models.
If you select prewash, you are doing a heavily soiled load, so the machine needs more water in the wash process.
No final spin deactivates PowerWash as the drum spins several times at high speed and therefore deactivating this is designed to reduce creasing.


Post# 1124871 , Reply# 87   8/4/2021 at 02:00 (297 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
So that the guessing and hypothesis stops






That's what PW2.0 (now just PW) is intended to work like.


Post# 1124956 , Reply# 88   8/5/2021 at 05:59 (296 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Reply #86

I still think Miele has employed a daft programming methodology.

You would think that even with cap dosing, they could flush the detergent/booster sooner or later in the cycle - and still use the Powerwash process. Unless, of course, their thinking is 'CapDosing = full load only'; therefore they've programmed the machine with only that state in mind.

The higher-level rinse might explain the disengagement of Powerwash... but I thought recent advances in washing machine technology meant the wash process was conducted with low water levels, and higher ratio of detergent. The rinses should be independently controlled, and as frequent or as high level as the user wants. Without upsetting the Powerwash capability.

Now the Prewash function. Surely the machine is intelligent enough to weigh the dry load at the start and put that value into memory. Then do the prewash, and spin it out down the drain. Move to mainwash, weigh the laundry again, see how it compares to the dry weight, add a tightly measured amount of water - and activate the powerwash system.

No final spin: To my mind, that should be simply that - no final spin. Everything else should be enabled/selectable up to the point of the final spin. Does it do the interim spins during the rinses, or are they deleted too?


Post# 1124985 , Reply# 89   8/5/2021 at 11:17 (296 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
OK, skip this if you don't like longwinded explenations.

Actually started up my laptop to write this cause I couldn't be bothered touch-typing this, so sorry for any spelling mistakes. No auto-correct here...

And if you don't care much for somewhat know-it-all explenations, just skip the post entirely.



So. All this is what I know about the EU-programming. The US might operate differently based on them being hot fill and such.

PowerWash consists of a couple of steps.

First is saturation and distribution of detergent. Spinning and spraying and all.
Then comes heating. Here the machine drains first so there is a known water level in the sump. Then it fills by volume (any PW equipped washer has a flow meter). Then it heats that water to steaming temp - about 85C. During this stage no recirculation happens. The laundry is soley heated by the steam rising up.
Once a certain amount of energy has been used to heat (yes heating here happens not by temp but purely by expended energy) the washer starts recirculating every 2 mins for a couple of seconds. Problem here is that there isn't necessarily any water to recirculate. If the laundry is very absorbent, the intial amount of water might not be enough to fully saturate the load. The recirculation is just there to get any water that might have dripped of the clothing into the sump back into it.

Finally the washer adds cold water to a low water level. This stage dilutes the wash water out of the clothing and is the first point in the cycle where you know for certain the load is fully saturated.




So now to the limitations:

1) Pre-Wash. Pre-Wash in Mieles logic is ment not technically for heavy soils as in stains and such, but for large amounts of soils like sand, dust etc. For heavy soils, soak is supposed to be used.
So, a pre-wash selection means a high dilution power is needed. Thus, a very low water main wash dosen't make much sense. It's not the re-saturation that is the issue, it's the performance wanted in that case.
The soak is done in deep water as soaking clothing - no matter if in a machine or in a tub - requires enough water to submerge all fibres to be effective.
Best way to think about it here: You pre-treat stains with a spray. If there are many heavy stains or lots of loose dirt you don't use a spray, you soak. PowerWash is like super charged stain treating with a spray - just for the entirety of the load.

2) No spin: In europe the limit set for this is 600rpm actually. So if you select anything lower than 600rpm PW is cancelled. If you select such a low spin speed you have a reason you select it - laundry care. And if you do that, you wouldn't want it spun it at all.
A spin during the main wash is just as "damaging" to clothing as during the final spin.
They limit the thermo spin on their W/D as well if you select a low spin speed. Same idea.

3) Cap-Dosing: 2 reasons here. First, they always load at least 5l via the cap to fully flush it. This would be way to much for PW-prepping.
The stain agent I think is added somewhere mid main-wash. Adding it during the dilution stage of PW dosen't make much sense since it only has 10min of action then, and mid wash you can't ensure it will get properly distributed.

4) Water Plus: So, actually, kind of a communication issue there. There are 2 kinds of washers with PW: Those that just have a water plus button and those with both water plus and an extra rinse option.
In Europe, you can set up the first of the two to either add a rinse, raise the water level in all stages of the cycle or both.
On top of that, ALL machines here offer the option to pin the water level in the rinses to max.
If you have set up either the max rinse water level or add a rinse (be that via the extra rinse option or the water plus option programmed to act that way) the machine will still run PW as normal.
If you select water plus (either by setting up the option that way or just using water plus instead of extra rinse) the assumption is that you have a reason to have a deep wash - not just a good rinse. Thus, PW is skipped.
Logic here: Good rinsing does not require much water - it's much better to run an extra rinse. If you actually need more water (for bulky items like blankets or towels or such) you would want it in the main wash aswell.
Water Plus basically acts as a PW kill switch.

5) Something that actually dosen't come up in the US. PowerWash isn't active for any temp over 60C and not for any cycle that requires temp holding.
So a boilwash cycle wouldn't use it since the hotter the laundry needs to get, the longer the heating takes.
On a normal wash for a full load, a Miele takes about 30-35min to heat to 60C over here. That is a full load and that uses about 20l per fill.
On the max PW-load (about 6kg), the machine takes a good hour to heat to 60C - and that only has to heat half the amount of water. The heating element is only on about 1/3 of the time in total due to it cycling and thus you save about 10% of energy in total, but the heating takes double the time.
Heating the same load to 40C takes only about 25min max in PW. Thus heating those last 20C takes more than twice the time.
Heating to 30C is done in max 10min usually.
From there on, the machine can't actually monitor the actual wash temp. There is no direct correlation between the water temp in the sump and in the laundry. The machine actually just calculates how much it has to heat to get all water in the machine to a certain temp. If you interupt the machine right after heating and open the door on a PW cycle, you'll be abled to feel that some areas of clothing will be warmer than others. The temperature only levels out to an even level after 10-20min of continued tumbling.
Same goes with dampness: Right after spinning and spraying, the laundry often isn't 100% evenly wet. Both water, detergent and heat are ment to migrate throught the laundry over time.
This though means as well that if you need to keep a wash temp for stain removal or for sanitizing, you can't warrant that on a PW cycle. Thus, for example, Hygiene/Sanitize don't run PW cycles even though they are just cottons cycles with long temp holding and slightly lower agitation to compensate for the longer main wash.





And then another final addition to this:

There were 4 major generations of "PowerWash" up to now:
1) PowerWash: That was just the recirculation. No fancy highly efficent ultra-low water level washing with heating via steam.
2) PowerWash 2.0 - First version: These machines only used the PowerWash 2.0 method on Cottons and Easy-Care. They had some teething issues. PW-sensing was sometimes very inaccurate. The machine could not abort PW once PW was decided on. Means that if you had a very light load that absorbed a lot of water, the machine could potentially not saturate the load enough to get decent results on PW mode with steam heating. For example with certain kinds of towels, you could end up with dry spots even after 90min of main washing.
3) PowerWash2.0 - Second version: This version added a lot of things though it was still labeled the same. At this point Miele just kept the 2.0 suffix to make sure any first gen PW machine that didn't have the heating by steam functionality was sold before changing the naming again. Here PW was added to certain cycles like at first Delictaes and Shirts, later on Automatic Plus. Cycle times under PowerWash were extended in general - the shortest PW Cottons 40C cycle without options now was over 2h vs. the 1:30h version that it could sense to before.
Here the PW cycle was still capped at a max of 8l of water used for saturating the load, but it could switch out of PW into a normal cycle if it had to add any more water than that to saturate the load for PW.
This is also where SingleWash shows up for the first time.
4) PowerWash: Now, the machines are only labeld PowerWash again. Any machine that is on sale that has 2 pumps and a QuickPowerWash cycle from this point on also washes with what now has become the key feature of PW - the indirect heating. There actually was one exception maybe kinda - some M-Touch machines might have been labeled PW2.0 even though they might have used this version of the programming, but only very briefly.
This version adds another thing to PW: variable saturation targets.
Beforehand, all PW cycles aimed at about the same residual moisture - the same as the Cotton cycle would use, or about 80-100% for the main wash heating part.
For certain cycles - like Shirts and Delicates - that could lead to insufficent moisture retainment on small loads. You would than see for example that most of the shirts in a load had come pretty clean, but certain areas in random spots would still have some reminants of a stain on them.
To combat this, in certain situations, the speed the machine spins to during the preparation to the heating stage might be reduced or it might be skipped all together and it just distributes. The first spin up for load sensing however remains untouched.
This leaves you with actually dripping wet items compared to the wet but not fully saturated items in the Cottons cycle for example. This version is used for example in Delicates and Shirts.
One way you can actually check if you have this version (at least in Europe) through an update for example: This is what enables the QuickPowerWash cycle to run 4kg in 49min. The machine runs this higher saturation version in that case - not to save energy, but simply because you gain an ever so slight advantage time wise through the lower amount of water needed to heat and the considerably higher detergent concentration. Togehther with a slightly adapted rinse procedure, you can save the 10min for load up to 4kg.






PowerWash isn't dumb programming.

Until the newest series of BSH machines this was the most complicated and innovative wash system on the EU market - and even now I'd give it an edge over those machines.

They weren't perfect from the beginning - but Miele never was.
By now they have covered so many edge cases that they run PW cycles on most programms anybody ever uses and they are the only ones I know that run such an efficent system even on their short cycles.

Alone the idea of takeing the basis of cleaning clothing - the Sinner's circle (Sinner was a german chemist, so Sinner is a name, not like sinning) - to it's very basic terms was more than anybody has realised in a long time.

PowerWash is the basic idea of "just throw everything you need together and somehow it will work out".
They realised that you just needed the chemicals, the energy, the mechanics and the time in total.
They will mix enough on their own.

Thus, they realised that you don't actually need to heat all that water.
And you don't have to actually monitor the temperature in the clothing.
You don't have to be sure that you have everything 100% saturated from minute one.

As long as there is enough water and chemicals to cover everything, it will eventually spread out and cover everything.
As long as there is enough energy to heat everything to a certain temp, eventually everything will be that temp.
And as long as you give it enough mechanical action and time on top of that, everything will eventually come clean.

All you have to make sure you exactly know how much you need.
And that can be easily calculated.
You can easily calculate how much water you need. How long you have to heat. How long you have to tumble.

They took cleaning clothing and broke it down into some math.
They established edge cases where the math didn't work (thus those exemptions) and always operated within that confine.





Don't say I didn't warn you this was gonna be a novel...


Post# 1124998 , Reply# 90   8/5/2021 at 12:36 (296 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
US version - long post again

So the WXI860 in the US appears to be basically the same as the WWI860 in the EU.

This machine over here has the WaterPlus option that can be programmed to either act as an Extra Rinse button, a More Water button or both at the same time.
For the US they probably decided to abandon that and made ExtraRinse a fixed button for both not to confuse customers.
The UK version of the manual actually nicely explains the different versions of WaterPlus that were intended to be on that machine.

I would bet that activating bleaching on the US model would also deactivate PowerWash.

I am wondering though how they incorporated the hot fill on the US model.
As I said before, I am almost certain the error this thread was about was caused by a missed adaption the code when they had to fit in the hot fill valve into the programming.

I would almost bet that when the US versions start they do the first fill with only cold.
Then they run the load sense spin.
If they then decide on PW they wouldn't use the hot fill at all.
It's really funny when you look at the machine deciding against the PW cycle because the load is to large: The time resets and the door fill starts immediatley, like the machine just resets itself as it wasn't a PW machine.

I guess that with a pre-wash the first fill happend as it should with cold.
The next fill would have been directly with the hot valve active.
And that that's where somebody messed up in changing an adress and thus the machine thinks its calling for water via hot valve, but actually dosen't call for anything, and sees no movement in the flow meter and thus goes straight into a fill fault.
Basically that reset behaviour dosen't happen, thus some adressing isn't reset for the fill, thus the error.



What would be interesting now would be the Australian version of the WWI860.
This has the EU-programming for a large part, but also has the hot fill from the US version.

So it has the bigger heater, beinng 240V, the EU functions and cycle setup, but the hot fill option aswell.

The only version that has both PW and a hot fill in the EU is the TOL Passion model that has M-Touch and a steam generator, thus a different water valve setup (probably a motorised diverter like the "old days").




Post# 1125015 , Reply# 91   8/5/2021 at 15:50 (296 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
@henene4

Thank you for the great explanation and knowledge of PowerWash!
I want to upgrade to a model that has PW.
As I mentioned I have the WWH860 and it only utilizes PowerWash on Cold Washes, and no matter the size of the load.
I would love to hear your perspective on why this is the case.
From what I have seen on YouTube PW shaves off time.
I was thinking that the US models already had a short cycle time to begin with.
I can do a 30 degree C wash in just over an hour. That is probably why US models didn’t have PW for heated cycles until the new WXI860. This leads me to believe that the new WXI model with PW has longer cycle times, which are still way shorter than non-US washers.


Post# 1125023 , Reply# 92   8/5/2021 at 17:19 (296 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

As I said, hot water filling kind of negates the point of PW.
The one machine over here having both a hot fill and PW dosen't use PW if a hot fill is selected.

So filling with hot will probably have switched of PW just because it is/was more efficient. Thus only on cold.
The gains in efficiency would have been minute. Time savings huge though...

PW cycles are generally longer. You just need a longer time to heat as you can't keep the heater on continuously.
The shortest main wash on Cotton's over here is still about an hour.
The normal main wash is about 90min.



If the US uses PW like the EU cycles will be longer for certain.

Though I could imagine a different PW version being used in the US.
Maybe something more akin to what QuickPowerWash is over here - using a high water amount and the wetter PW mode.
Maybe they managed to integrate starting water temp into the calculations and thus can run PW with hot fills.

I mean, QuickPowerWash over here has almost an hour of main wash if you deselect the time saver option.

So yeah, haven't seen much of any action for the US machines.
All this is extrapolated from the EU version and Miele really hasn't been known to go out of their ways to reinvent the wheel for the US market since the W4xxx Desaster...


Post# 1125032 , Reply# 93   8/5/2021 at 18:10 (296 days old) by Tomdawg (Des moines)        
Thank you for that explanation!

On my W4842 model I have the option to change country settings to EU, AU, French? And English. Would this change the way how Miele washers act? I would believe this could be applied to the W1

Post# 1125080 , Reply# 94   8/6/2021 at 03:21 (295 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany)        

mrboilwash's profile picture
I`m sorry to rain on everybody`s parade, but after watching the Powerwash video and another one about Powerwash rinse and spin I can only say I hope Miele will keep some models without it in the future.

At first I don`t like the idea of draining part of the detergent laden water and replace it with fresh water after the saturation stage to get the ideal water level for efficient heating by steam.
What a waste of detergent!
After all there seems to be a huge amount of chemicals wasted mostly unused just to save a little bit of energy.

Next thing I don`t like is that all the heating is only controlled by a flow meter and calculation. Flow meters can get very unreliable in certain water conditions when they get older.
Why didn`t they go with an infrared thermometer in the boot pointing at the laundry instead?

Don`t get me started on recirculation pumps in washers in general.
Just think of what they might spray onto your clothes if you haven`t used your washer for a while and wanted to do a 30 °C wash at first. Yuck!

Additionally at the commence of each rinse it dumps a lot of suds onto the clothes which have been spun out in the interim spins before.

Don`t get me wrong I`m all for buying German whenever possible because I can`t afford to buy cheap, but Powerwash seems a bit too overengineered for my liking.

End of rant


Post# 1125087 , Reply# 95   8/6/2021 at 05:16 (295 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

Before draining for heating, the newer models at least run the recirculation pump for about a minute to spray as much of the water back into the load as possible.
Usually the pump runs completely dry on mine before draining.

So wastage is minimal.


Heating that way in general isn't a temp exact thing with PW.
A 5° difference isn't unusual, but unless you select an Eco cycle, the machine usually heats to overshoot ever so slightly.

Except for the QuickPowerWash, no rinse cycle uses the recirculation until the final rinse.
So the sump is flushed before any wash water could be recirculated.


Post# 1125234 , Reply# 96   8/7/2021 at 06:11 (294 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
Then there are also his videos. Cotton 140F with TwinDos Color.

The bar on top of the video says: drenching, heating, wash, dilution, and then times and spinning.

The graph on the left shows consumption values.






Post# 1125842 , Reply# 97   8/15/2021 at 09:42 (286 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
My issues have been fixed with an over the air update

So, I got home from work yesterday evening.
Wanted to chuck my work shirts in when my machine quoted me with an "Up" message on the display.

Hit start and walked off for a minute thinking that might take a bit.
But no, update was done quite quickly.

So I thought I'd check today on a load of towels and it did indeed do a cool down with no issues.


Post# 1126259 , Reply# 98   8/19/2021 at 17:14 (282 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
App still not functioning though

App still not working for me though. It says my dryer is running even though it isn’t. And I can’t start a cycle using Mobile-Control.
Sent email to Miele. First reply was first level; re-install app, etc.
second reply is as follows…

Hello Stephen,

I understand you're wondering when will the app be fixed as you're currently having issues with mobile-control. I will be more than happy to look into this matter for you! First i would like to apologize for any frustration this matter may have caused you. At this time, we do not have a set date of when the app will be fixed but i can ensure you we are working hard to resolve all issues. Remote updates are made available when necessary, as you do not need to take action yourself. If there is no update available, then the appliance is up to date. When an update is available, a notification will appear in the app and on the appliance.

If you need any more assistance please contact Miele at 1-888-99-MIELE (64353) or visit us online at www.mieleusa.com...

Thank you for contacting Miele.
Mashayla Johnson


Miele Inc. | 9 Independence Way | Princeton NJ 08540 | United States


Post# 1127105 , Reply# 99   8/28/2021 at 16:41 (273 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
Miele customer service

Has anyone here with the intake error on the WWH860 had any results speaking to Miele (other than bbjwvr6)?


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Post# 1127107 , Reply# 100   8/28/2021 at 16:52 (273 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I have the WWH860 but have not had any water intake issues. I am holding off from updating the phone app until I hear its problems have been resolved. Do you notice anything new in the app - other than the fact that it is not working correctly?

Post# 1127109 , Reply# 101   8/28/2021 at 17:07 (273 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        

Laundry Assistant is gone.
Can’t select a cycle using MobileControl.
TwinDos percentages gone. Now just says SUFFICIENT.
And no matter where in the cycle it is, it always says MAIN WASH.
Have you tried using Pre-Wash? I am assuming yes. LOL


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Post# 1127183 , Reply# 102   8/29/2021 at 14:56 (272 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Twin Dos percentages are gone? That doesn't make any sense. How are you supposed to how much is left so you can order more? No excuse for the app not telling you what portion of the cycle the machine is in. I mean it's not like the machine can't tell the app because it always could before this update. I'm glad I didn't let the app get updated.

I have been doing the cold fill prewash, followed by a 140F or a 122F wash and so far have not had the water intake problem.


Post# 1127266 , Reply# 103   8/30/2021 at 16:08 (271 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Stephen

I think you and everyone else that has upgraded the app should go to your phone app store and rate the app. This way the actual app developers might get first-hand information about what is needed to correct it. Rate the app and leave a description of what is wrong with it and what it should be doing. Mention the functionality that was in the prior app version that is now missing in this version. Rate it with 1 star or 0 stars if possible.


Post# 1127278 , Reply# 104   8/30/2021 at 16:59 (271 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
@Jerrod_six

Unfortunately you can’t rate a Zero. So a ONE it is. And here is what I wrote:

Ever since downloading this new version, my experience with Miele has soured.
This update was a downgrade. I use the app to monitor my Washer and Dryer.
You used to be able to view how much detergent you had left, you used to be able to start a cycle with the app, used to be able to tell what part of the cycle the machine was, and used to be able get cycle recommendations via Laundry Assistant. All of this is gone. Miele knows about the issue, but it has been months now, and still no resolution. Why not roll back the old version, or at least customer service should be able to send you the old version upon request. You pay $4,000 for a Miele Washing Machine and Dryer; yet you aren’t even able to use the features that you paid for!


Post# 1127466 , Reply# 105   9/1/2021 at 16:10 (269 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

That is a good review. I agree- you should be able to get the previous version of the app back - at least it was working.

Post# 1132561 , Reply# 106   11/2/2021 at 23:29 (206 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

So Miele Germany...When will the Prewash issue be fixed on USA W1's ? Your company is so stupid that it cannot be corrected? Is it hardware related, firmware related, both ??? Fix your garbage machines. That's what something is when it does not work properly GARBAGE!

Post# 1135764 , Reply# 107   12/9/2021 at 16:58 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
Current Status

From over at Laundry Room...

"Good afternoon Mr *******,

I just reached out to our Engineering department to see if we had a true update. I was told that there was actually supposed to be a release last week but the SW did not pass testing. Please rest assured that the factory is working on this issue and that once an update is complete, tested, and then released you along with other experiencing the same issue will be notified and the machines will be updated.

Thanks,

David"


Post# 1135771 , Reply# 108   12/9/2021 at 19:29 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
I'm so sorry but they must have done something...

littlegreeny's profile picture
As I've had zero issues with my new WXR860 doing prewashes.

Post# 1136966 , Reply# 109   12/23/2021 at 09:23 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
Technical Service Bulletin

Keep in mind if your machine does not exhibit this issue and receives an "update" with new software... It may be the software that has this issue. Therefore your W1 will now have same problem as some already have. Miele has made NO attempt to stop updating machines with this errant software. New units just introduced also have this issue depending on model. Germany decided to load errant firmware on these new models knowing the software was flawed to begin with.

There should be some type of notice given to dealers and passed down to consumer before purchasing a W1 machine. Do not count on this issue ever getting corrected. Time frame for spring 2022 software to correct issues will make it approx 1 year when Miele became aware of this problem, if not more time than that. How could it take this long is beyond me.


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Post# 1136979 , Reply# 110   12/23/2021 at 11:22 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Dunno what you are trying to say

They are working on the issue. And since certain machines are affected, until the fix arrives, they can't do much.

Sure that is very annoying, but what are they supposed to do? Stop makeing machines?


The related issue in the EU was resolved a few months ago.
The US unfortunately is a very low priority county for Miele.

And I don't see how stoping updates will be of any help.

The models affected will be affected in the future until the fix is rolled out.
Those not won't be.
The issue is and was related to new water intake set-ups and the porting of those to hot fill machines. Those having older or the newer hardware revisions have different firmware and hardware that isn't affected.

A software update will not cause the issue to occur on a machine that didn't have the issue beforehand.

I have yet to see any proof of that anyway.


Post# 1136981 , Reply# 111   12/23/2021 at 11:31 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
I do know what I am saying

There is proof of updates creating issue in other forum. You are wrong on a few things in your statement.

Post# 1136982 , Reply# 112   12/23/2021 at 11:33 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Ok

That would be a surprise to me - from a technical point of view that is very unlikely.

But regardless, software testing takes time.
It's annoying, but not much one can do.


Post# 1136984 , Reply# 113   12/23/2021 at 11:50 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

"The US unfortunately is a very low priority county for Miele"

LOL We buy more machines that most countries. BTW I'm German and expect quality from a company that professes perfection and quality. Fact is this whole issue was exposed and Miele made new models recently knowing the software was bad and loaded it right into them and sent them out anyway. So two of the four new models just rolled out have issue, and all of the previous four. If you have old software your machine may update introducing the error to your previously perfect machine. IT IS WRONG!



Post# 1136986 , Reply# 114   12/23/2021 at 11:51 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

*country

for the police


Post# 1137022 , Reply# 115   12/23/2021 at 17:00 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Wouldn't say USA market is "low" priority for Miele, but as they barely have one percent of appliance market share here, that's saying something.

www.statista.com/forecast...


Post# 1138134 , Reply# 116   1/2/2022 at 01:46 by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

I have both the WWH860 and the WXI860. No prewash error on either machine.

One change on the WXI860 that I do not like is with quickintense wash. The final spin is terrible. The machine will spend three to five minutes rotating before attempting the final spin. With two minutes remaining it will spin up to 1600 and immediately spin down. It spends almost zero time at max spin. Dry times increase by 10-20% due to the poor final spin. This can't possibly be correct.

The WWH-860 does not act this way. It does proper spins for each rinse. I also do not like the focus on 49 minute cycles. The 59 minute quick cycle on the 860 adds 10 minutes when temp is set to 140F. It is also possible to get a third rinse when activating allergy in the expanded programming menu. This setting is not honored in the WXI version.

While I like the 860 we don't use the quick intense cycle much on this washer due to the poorer rinse/spin. We do most of those in the WWH model now and run the standard cycles in the new model.

Just my viewpoints between the two models.


Post# 1138136 , Reply# 117   1/2/2022 at 02:18 by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

I have both the WWH860 and the WXI860. No prewash error on either machine.

One change on the WXI860 that I do not like is with quickintense wash. The final spin is terrible. The machine will spend three to five minutes rotating before attempting the final spin. With two minutes remaining it will spin up to 1600 and immediately spin down. It spends almost zero time at max spin. Dry times increase by 10-20% due to the poor final spin. This can't possibly be correct.

The WWH-860 does not act this way. It does proper spins for each rinse. I also do not like the focus on 49 minute cycles. The 59 minute quick cycle on the 860 adds 10 minutes when temp is set to 140F. It is also possible to get a third rinse when activating allergy in the expanded programming menu. This setting is not honored in the WXI version.

While I like the 860 we don't use the quick intense cycle much on this washer due to the poorer rinse/spin. We do most of those in the WWH model now and run the standard cycles in the new model.

Just my viewpoints between the two models.


Post# 1138308 , Reply# 118   1/3/2022 at 18:01 by mielerod69 (Australia)        
QuickIntenseWash

mielerod69's profile picture
Hi Moon1234,
If you select water plus via the app, will it extend the time on the program? I have an older W1 model and if you select water plus, it extends the time to 1 hour 15 minutes. It does do a longer final spin and also adds an interim spin between the rinses. On the European models you can deselect the Quick option and it extends the time and also allows you to wash 5 kg instead of 4 kg.


Post# 1138311 , Reply# 119   1/3/2022 at 18:07 by Moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

Water Plus on the WXI860 does nothing on my washer other than increase the amount of water added during the main wash. I have max water level selected for all rinses so I am not sure if water plus affects the rinse water level.

Allergy option is the only way to extend the main wash. It also adds full spins between rinses and and extra rinse. If extra rinse and allergy are selected the machine does not add the extra rinse. The wash duration is the same time if allergy is selected irrespective if extra wash is selected or not.


Post# 1138383 , Reply# 120   1/4/2022 at 09:44 by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
@Mielerod

Regarding QuickIntenseWash on the US W1s:
When you have hot water intake, the cycle is :49 for 40C and :59 for 60C.
If you have water intake set to Cold only the cycle times are 1:15 and 1:25.


Post# 1138436 , Reply# 121   1/4/2022 at 19:19 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
Comparisons Old To New

It seems Miele has left out some things on their newest models in the US. From placement of bogus cycles on dial. Reduced spin times. Possible difference of water amounts in rinses when "water plus" is used. Allergen w/extra rinse does nothing, still 3 rinses then?

I can tell you "allergen" on the W1 WWF060 adds an extra rinse to most cycles, and you may select "extra rinse" in options thus getting 2 extra rinses. Water Plus increases water level for wash and rinses also on the WWF060.

My fear is when new firmware comes if ever to fix my prewash, that my machine may be more restricted than it already is. The way it seems is a quality well thought out programming scheme Miele once had is no more. Is there a hidden settings menu on the new four machines? What can you set there to improve the machine?


Post# 1138439 , Reply# 122   1/4/2022 at 19:26 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

It is actually difficult for anyone to compare their W1 unless it is someone with identical machine. Although what is clear as day is Miele is becoming no better than other brands.

Post# 1138459 , Reply# 123   1/5/2022 at 02:29 by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

@Stephen
Your observations on how quick intense wash works are only valid for the previous w1 versions (WWH860 is what I have). For the "New" W1 models in the USA the time is NOT extended to 59 minutes when 60C (140F) is selected. The time remains 49 minutes no matter what temp is selected or what and expanded programming options are set (Water Plus, Allergy, etc.), those are all disregarded in the quick intense wash.

As I stated above the spins in quick intense wash are also sub-optimal compared to the previous models. The WWH860 did a MUCH better job spinning than the WXI-860 does. The WXI-860 will require an extra drain/spin cycle after any load that has textiles that hang on to water (towels, terry shirts, etc.) or there will be extra time required in the dryer.

It feels like Miele farmed the programming out to a committee in India who can't speak German and each person on the committee got to decide how a single program works. The end of the Quick Intense Wash is just messed up. Time spent tumbling the wash before the final spin should be reduced by at LEAST 3 minutes and dedicated to spin. A 60C wash should extend the wash time and a third rinse should be allowed if allergy is selected in the expanded programming menu.

Most of the cycles work great. Quick Intense Wash is currently screwed up on US machines in my opinion. Extra rinse has no effect when Allergy Wash is selected. It should allow an extra rinse in addition.


Post# 1138461 , Reply# 124   1/5/2022 at 04:15 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Ok

So which function are you referring to if you are talking about "Allergy"?

If you mean the one in the programming menu that is technically not ment for consumers (as in not mentioned in the manual) that function never improved rinsing.
It has been there at least since the Softtronic days and basically was only ment for very specific conditions where even if all rinsing options were increased there could be some residue minute residue.
It didn't add rinses or increase water levels ever from what I know.
It did however extend interim spins and change the spin profile in general.
On some machines it is said it activated the window spray for a brief moment to flush away suds.

If you mean the option that once lived under the ProgramManager and now is placed in the "options" tab and is called "AllergoWash" it shouldn't even be selectable on QuickIntenseWash.
So if it is selectable via the App for example, that's just the App being the mess that is.



QuickPowerWash as it is called over here dosen't increase wash time for 60C either.

Point is that both 40C and 60C reach the same wash result according to the EU wash class rating system.
These ratings are known to not be that dependent on temperature.

It DOES reach the selected temperature on both settings in all versions.
It just doesn't need more time at temp for the rated cleaning.
Being abled to select 60C is just ment for the bit of extra bleaching and disinfection for loads that can be washed at that temp.



The new 49min version makes a whole lot more sense over here.

There are 3 basic cycle courses now.
All machines over here have a "Short" option.

The default QuickPowerWash has that selected and displays 49min.

If you load 4kg or less with Short selected, the machine will carry out the new QPW cycle.
That means it spins to sense the load and if it senses that load size it runs an adapted PowerWash process.
The first few minutes are spent spinning and spraying the load to distribute detergent on the load and wet everything.
Then it drains and refills for heating.
However the load is much wetter compared to any other PowerWash process and the water level is much higher, almost reaching into the drum.
That allows the machine to heat quicker due to the lower water volume and to take advantage of the higher detergent concentration and to not have to stop heating as if it was heating purely by steaming.

If the load is greater than 4kg, the machine will switch to the 59min version that basically still is the "old" QPW cycle.
Both cycles run an interim spin burst only after the main wash and 2 subsequent rinses.
The final spin there is the very short version only reaching full speed for a few seconds.



Over here, however, you can deselect that "short" option.

Then you'll still get the 1:15h version.
That is 1:15 for both 60C and 40C.

That gives you the regular deep main wash, 2 interim spins and the final spin that keeps at 1600rpm for 60-120 seconds.


Neither version allows any further options.
No water plus, no extra rinse, no AllergoWash.

It is kind of an oversight that you can't add an extra rinse there, but I guess that is down to the fact that the programming for the rinses is so different compared to the other cycles and the fact that they assume that if you have the need for additional rinsing you can just aswell run another cycle.
Especially in the US once you add another rinse, there isn't much between Normal and QuickIntenseWash time wise.


Post# 1138462 , Reply# 125   1/5/2022 at 04:16 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

This post has been removed by the member who posted it.



Post# 1138472 , Reply# 126   1/5/2022 at 07:14 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Quick Intense Wash

littlegreeny's profile picture
I have to say I am very disappointed in the quick intense wash on my new WXR-860. Rinsing is poor because of the nearly non-existent interim spins and the load is left very wet because of the extremely short final spin. I also wish there was a way to opt to have proper intermediate spins and a longer final spin. I'd gladly have it go back to the old 59 minute version of the cycle for that.

I'm still trying to find the right combination of cycles and options to have a load cleaned and thoroughly rinsed and extracted in about an hour. Baby Clothes with the single wash option is good but not great. Anyone else figure out a good combo?


Post# 1138488 , Reply# 127   1/5/2022 at 10:11 by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
@moon

So what happens to the times on QIW when you change the Water Intake to cold? Do they not increase in your new model?

Post# 1138506 , Reply# 128   1/5/2022 at 14:05 by lavamat_jon (-)        

The Allergy programmable function adds an extra rinse as standard to most programmes. I have it programmed in so I get 3 rather than 2 standard rinses, with the option of a 4th with extra rinse. It also means you get an extra rinse when using Single Wash which doesn’t allow you to select it manually. It is annoying how you don’t get 3 rinses under 60° on W1 which you used to on the 3000/5000 series, despite the manual saying so. Although Automatic plus will do 3 rinses as standard, so 4 with allergy enabled.

I have to say I find the new Quick PowerWash very poor at rinsing and spinning compared to the previous 59 min version. The rinsing is terrible (it doesn’t drain completely between 1st and 2nd), doesn’t fill to as high a rinse level and only peaks at 1600 before slowing down again whereas the previous 59 min version would spin at 1600 for 90 seconds, and drain completely between the rinses. I haven’t yet managed to trigger the 59min version on mine however even with large loads. I tend to use the SingleWash option for a quick wash instead with good results - you can select up to 90° and it will do two full rinses and interim spins (or three with Allergy programmed in) and a longer spin at 1600. If you load more than 1kg, SingleWash is programmed to fill as normal too without using the PowerWash 2 rhythm. (I have the PowerWash 2 rhythm deactivated as standard as I find washing results poorer than washing in a standard pool of water).

I would imagine the longer wash times for QuickIntense is due to being on lower voltage versus 240 we have here. Even at this time of year under half an hour is enough to heat to 60, although I do wish we had more hot fill options here to make use of cheaper hot water for most loads that wouldn’t require a profile wash.

Don’t even get me started on Express - on the 2000/3000 series it was brilliant with at least 2 rinses as standard, 3 with extra and a full cottons fast spin, versus 1 rinse and a short stint at 1200. It was ideal for smaller loads that were normally soiled, or larger loads of lightly soiled items. BSH have a better method nowadays with 2 rinses as standard with the ability to add extra should you need them, although the final spin is still only 1200.

Miele aren’t alone though in having an awful <1hr cycle - the LG v10 I have on Turbowash 39 only does one rinse as standard with a very short Turbowash spray rinse (2 sprays both ar 5 seconds) but does spin at max - although only washes for 10-15 mins so doesn’t wash as well Miele QPW or Siemens PowerSpeed. The Siemens PowerSpeed 59 cycle is strange too - won’t let you select more than 40 or 1400rpm but will at least do 3 proper rinses, though with no interims. It also spin washes several times in the wash to drive the detergent through the lid. For a good everyday cycle for most loads and soiling at 1 hour,I don’t think you can beat the Mixed Fabrics cycle which lets you do up to 60°C in an hour, and does full interim and the standard 1600 spins on full loads.

In terms of cycle bugs, my Miele will sometimes cancel and abort the cycle halfway through leaving you with warm, soapy, dripping wet laundry - has had two updates to try and resolve but it still does it - seems to be a glitch/flaw on my particular machine.


Post# 1138520 , Reply# 129   1/5/2022 at 16:05 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
@henene4

The allergen setting in hidden menu does offer another rinse on most cycles, and better temp holding times. Stop insisting on what machines do not do on models made for other countries. I can also add an extra rinse getting a total of 4 on major cycles. My water plus setting is just a across the board increase of water level in wash cycle and ALL rinses, by 3 increments in settings from normal water levels. My machine does not have the water plus extra feature set of water plus. I chose the W1 WWF060 for multiple reasons. No TwinDos, no recirculation pump, has rinse/spin vs base model did not, has light in drum/base model did not.

I am waiting for my prewash issue to be corrected IF EVER. As others in the United States are waiting. In new W1 lineup a similar machine as the WWF060 no longer exists. Now it's one base model and three TwinDos models. I would not want another model W1 period, even if offered as a replacement. Miele will be going on two years as to knowing about the prewash/soak/add item issue according to FACTS! Some W1's are getting updates introducing the ISSUE IN SUBJECT where as the machine was fine before the update.

Miele should have just fixed the mess on the original four W1 units before introducing another set of W1's. Two of the new W1's are carrying over the same issue with prewash/soak/add item, and two are not. Miele is not perfect as they claim to be, or the quality made appliance they claim to have. As of late NEITHER!





Post# 1138524 , Reply# 130   1/5/2022 at 16:19 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

For those of you with new released W1's in the USA...Good luck on getting those irritations with how cycles are programmed remedied. It sure appears logic went out the window with these new released W1's. Complaints are clearly not taken into consideration by us American customers.

Post# 1138559 , Reply# 131   1/5/2022 at 23:47 by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

@derrick352
I think you may be going too far. Miele still has good build quality and the other cycles work just fine. I have over 8000 hours on the WWH860 now. There is no other brand that I know of outside speed queen or a commercial washer that would withstand that level of use.

I am not thrilled with some of the design changes to the cycles on the WXI-860. I personally LIKED the WWH-860 Quick Intense Wash. I felt it did a good job in 59 minutes.

@Stephen
The times for the QIW cycle do NOT change when cold only is selected on the WXI860.

The problem I have is that QIW is very useful for many items. We run lots of towels through it in my house in the WWH-860. The WWH-860 does a proper final spin AND if Allergy is enabled to on in the expanded program menu you can get three rinses. With hot water valve enabled we can get a 140F temp for good sanitation, good wash due to towels not having a lot of visible soil and good rinsing, all in under an hour.

The WXI-860 QIW really ruins this process. Manually running another drain/spin is possible, but the third rinse is missing. The rinses in the QIW cycle are poor compared to it's predecessor. It's a shame because the new wash action is not bad.

Miele may have improved the wash action at the expense of good rinsing and proper final spin. The USA models does NOT have the ability to disable "Short" as HENE said the German models are so equipped.


Post# 1138573 , Reply# 132   1/6/2022 at 07:05 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
The 59min QPW

That actually might have gone for good.

In the transition period here where the machines had both label cycles on them, Miele had both their old and new cycle usage tables in the back of the manual.

That listed QPW once for 5kg in the old table with 59min and once with 4kg at 49min.

They might have just taken that out, since now in the new manuals the max load for QPW is 4kg.


Post# 1138618 , Reply# 133   1/6/2022 at 17:28 by mielerod69 (Australia)        
New vs. old QPW

mielerod69's profile picture
From what I have seen in the new W1 models, if you deselect the Quick option for the QPW program it increases the time to 1 hour 15 mins and the max load goes from 4 kg to 5 kg. I have a WMR861 which has the 59 min QPW, when I select water plus, the time increases to 1 hour 15 min. This improves the rinses and lengthens the final spin giving good results with towels or anything that I want to be washed quickly and thoroughly. If I adjust the soil level to light, the time decreases to 1 hour 7 minutes.

Post# 1138679 , Reply# 134   1/7/2022 at 16:00 by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Moon1234

What is this setting you called "Hot water Valve"? Is it in the programming menu?


Post# 1138699 , Reply# 135   1/7/2022 at 20:56 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
"Hot water Valve"?"

launderess's profile picture
Believe that refers to enabling "hot water" connection instead of "cold fill".

All Miele washing machines going back to early electronic controls required both a hot and cold tap connections. If you wanted to go with cold fill only it required using a "Y" splitter because hot water inlet still had to receive water for machine to operate properly.

Taking advantage of fact American homes often have ample hot water supplies Miele washers sold here for some time use both hot and cold water valves. Machine will fill with whatever temperature water is needed for certain cycles, which of course lessens demand on heater.

This in contrast to washing machines made by Miele and others sold in Europe where majority are cold fill only, and have been for years now. Machines sold there have far more powerful heating capacity, and it just makes more sense energy usage wise (on average) to let washer heat water as needed.

Not everyone sees things that way however. Homes with solar heated hot water or other ample supply often want a washer with hot water connection.


Post# 1138700 , Reply# 136   1/7/2022 at 21:06 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
See page "90" from installation manual.


Miele W1 washing machines sold in USA have at least two water option settings.

Cold water - Washer fills with "cold" water only (or whatever comes out of taps).

Hot water - This is default setting. Machine fills with hot water for certain wash cycles, useful in situations where homes have ample hot tap water from solar, water heaters, etc... Note Miele says this is an "energy saving" option.

www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/Z...

Don't know about W1 washers, but IIRC the 3XXX, 4XXX and other washers that ran on 120v did not (IIRC) engage heater for certain normal wash cycles when machine had hot water tap enabled. You got whatever temp came out of taps, and if it cooled or whatever, tough cheddar...


Post# 1149059 , Reply# 137   5/19/2022 at 13:12 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
June 2022 Software Update Ready

It has been reported the software/firmware is ready. Here is a kicker for some...this was posted in Laundry Room.


"Miele just told me on the phone if machine is out of warranty we have to pay for service call. I just made it. Purchased the current unit on 5/20/2021. I told Miele this is not acceptable regardless. So if your machine was defective upon purchase and the software took more than 1yr to be released, they want us to pay for the service call. Total BS. On top of that I have to get someone out of service area. Notified district tech to assist in getting me a truck roll in addition to ticket request. Please share details about any cost to you on tickets created within warranty period, and actual repair outside of warranty period. Thanks"





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