Thread Number: 87836  /  Tag: Small Appliances
220 Volt Living 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 1124074   7/25/2021 at 12:00 (998 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Has anyone else here seeded 240 volt outlets around their home? I'm encouraging all AW.org members to do this is if you haven't already. You have to try it, you must try it, you don't know what you're missing. Use them a few times and you won't go back. In fact you'll find yourself installing more in the kitchen, bathroom, bedroom and garage.

 

A two pole 15 amp breaker, some 14-2, a few old work boxes and some genuine schuko sockets off of ebay is all you need.

 

Once installed the good stuff can be found here :)

 

www.eastwestintl.com/...

 

 

Amazon and Amazon international sites are another great place to order 230 volt vacuums, coffee makers, griddles, skillets, toasters, rice cookers, kettles, bread makers, night lights, heating blankets, hair dryers, curlers, table and floor lamps, radiators, table fans, steamers, irons, just for beginners.

 

 

 

 
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Post# 1124102 , Reply# 1   7/25/2021 at 16:06 (998 days old) by iej (.... )        

You can actually get nicer looking Legrand Schuko or French (also compatible) outlets.

They've a range called Céliane, which have a front cover that retracts as the plug goes in and are also fully child proof etc (required in French norms)

The ground is done with a pin on these (goes into the hole on the front of your common CEE 7/7 grounded plug)

Same rating, 16 amps. Accept the same plugs as Schuko (other than very old Schuko plugs which don't have a hole for the French ground. These aren't very common anymore)

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This post was last edited 07/25/2021 at 16:29
Post# 1124103 , Reply# 2   7/25/2021 at 16:12 (998 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)        

Sounds intriguing but are the benefits worth the cost/effort?

Post# 1124106 , Reply# 3   7/25/2021 at 16:20 (998 days old) by iej (.... )        

No real practical advantage, other than the French design is polarised (using the grounding pin) and has child proofing. It's mostly just a décor advantage beyond that.

There are umpteen designs of Schuko outlets too.

We don't use CEE 7/X outlets here. They are technically allowed (in Ireland, not the UK), but you'll only ever really find them in hotel rooms where they might add one or two near the dressing table / desk alongside the regular Irish / UK type.

The main reason is continental European visitors have a tendency to try to jam plugs into the outlets. The flat 'Europlug' will fit, if you jimmy open the shutters, but it's not advised and can damage the outlet. So it often saves a lot of maintenance and is a handy convenience for tourists I guess.

There'd be little point in you using these, as they're a UK/Ireland and a few other countries like Malaysia, Singapore etc only.

Same 230V 50Hz system - just different outlets and plugs.

We're even facing a problem in Ireland after Brexit, as it's possible the UK will wander away from CE approvals, which could render a whole load of electrical accessories illegal to use here.

So I guess we could be moving back to 'schuko' (which was used here until the early 1960s!)

---

I'm assuming you're connecting that to a US 240V hot-to-hot supply?

Schuko was originally designed with the idea that you could have two hots. There were older European systems using 127V/220V 50Hz 'split phase' supplies, which were quite similar in design to the current 120/240V 60Hz system.

All European appliances are designed on the basis of hot / neutral being switchable so having two hots shouldn't really matter at all.

240V is likely to be somewhat close to the upper end of the tolerance of European appliances, but since the old UK spec was 240V it's within the range for nominally 230V appliances.

Frequency might cause you some issues, but not with very many appliances.

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This post was last edited 07/25/2021 at 16:35
Post# 1124108 , Reply# 4   7/25/2021 at 17:06 (998 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Indeed- two hots and a ground. This is one of the reasons I went with mainland schuko, and order schuko appliances when I can, no need to worry about polarity. 

 

Regarding voltage you are correct, though fortunately I'm reading that +10%-6% of 230 volts is allowed:

 

www.sciencedirect.com/top...

 

So 110% of 230 is 253 volts. The highest around here tends to reach 245. Technically it could go as high as 250, but never seen that.

 

The frequency can make a difference, though I've come to find out that usually does not matter. 
Post# 1124109 , Reply# 5   7/25/2021 at 17:08 (998 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
I’ve just had a thought

 What about the other way around? Like using 120 V appliances in 240v countrys?

Post# 1124112 , Reply# 6   7/25/2021 at 17:35 (998 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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If a 120 volt appliance can outperform all its local competitors, why not?  
Post# 1124121 , Reply# 7   7/25/2021 at 19:30 (998 days old) by iej (.... )        

Anything made for the U.K. market is the same as elsewhere in Europe, other than the plug. Brexit could in theory change that, but the U.K. remains part of CENELEC and the IEC so that’s very unlikely.

The polarity of U.K./Irish outlets matters a lot because the fuse in the plug should be on the live pin, but the appliances are identical spec to anywhere else in Europe and are polarity agnostic in reality.

Once the polarity of the socket outlet is correct, the 13 amp (or whatever lower rating is selected) fuse will be on the correct side of the circuit.

The primary purpose of the fuse is the protect the appliance cord, as the U.K. uses 32 amp final ring circuits to feed outlets. If they’re on a 15amp circuit, there’s little risk, but you could potentially exceed their 13amp maximum load. That being said, they very conservative designs that are nearly as chunky as a US dryer plug!

However, you can see why using a U.K. type plug with two live/hot terminals would be rather risky, as the fusing might not work as intended.

The lower rates fuses (most commonly 3 amp) are just there for extra safety and allowed very fine lamp cords and so on. Since the 1970s such cords aren’t sold. Lamps would have exactly the same cords as used with continental plugs.

Rings are actually not used very much here in Ireland, to the point that the current regulations here require multiple 20amp radials in kitchen and utility room type areas where high loads likely. The logic of that is that clustering appliances near one side of a ring is potentially problematic.

Generally in the rest of the house we usually 16 or 20 amp radial serving outlets in each room and 6 or 10amp radials for lighting. Everything has to be on RCDs (often a combined breaker and GFCI module called an RCBO) and recent regs now also require arc fault detection in sleeping areas, or areas prone to fire risks.

Schuko type outlets on the continent usually sit on 16 or 20 amp radials, much like US outlets.

*** 120V appliances in a 230V country ***

That’s not as easy as the other way around as there’s no handy source or 120V in the EU, U.K., Australia or NZ etc. Buildings are provided with 230V on the live (hot) and a neutral that’s typically at 0V and bonded to ground.

In the North American system buildings are fed with two lives / hots at 120V and a neural at 0V
The two live wires are tapped at the transformer such that if you connect between them you get a potential difference (Voltage) of 240V. So it’s relatively simple to obtain 230V (240V) on their systems.

In Britain and Ireland we use 110V 50Hz from a portable centre tapped transformer for power tools used on site. This is different to US voltage. It’s roughly 55V to ground from each side of the circuit, with no neural. The logic of this is personal protection of people working with power tools in rough or wet areas. It both reduces the voltage and connects via an isolating transformer, rather than directly to the mains. So you are extremely unlikely to get a shock.

Modern RCDs (GFCIs) are used elsewhere, but the regs in both countries have remained fairly conservative about power tools.

That’s a portable “site transformer” used for connecting commercial / shop power tools:

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This post was last edited 07/25/2021 at 19:56
Post# 1124141 , Reply# 8   7/26/2021 at 06:15 (997 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Using 220 Volt Appliances On 240 Volts Or More

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May not be a good idea, appliances with heating elements that are designed for 220 or even 230 volts often fail violently at the higher US voltages.

 

We have customers with European electric ranges like the AGA ranges that are intended for 220 volts and they have frequent and exciting element failures that are not only dramatic but a little dangerous and the element melt-downs often leave permeant damage to the oven liners.

 

John L.
Post# 1124145 , Reply# 9   7/26/2021 at 08:34 (997 days old) by iej (.... )        

It’s a bit outside the upper end of the spec alright.

The power here comes in at 225V (have plugged a test meter in out of curiosity). It seems to hover between 218V and 228V.

All EU countries used a 220V 50Hz spec. Britain oddly standardised on 240V 50Hz, having previously (into the early 1970s) used a range of voltages in 200-250V range which had evolved in different power company regions.

With the dawn of the European single market, having a member with odd voltages was causing issues for manufacturers, so the spec was changed to 230V 50Hz by tightening the parameters for supplies.

The EU countries (and others) harmonised by using 230V -10%/+6% and the U.K. used 230V -6%/+10%. The appliances are designed for 230V +/-10%

There’s a false notion that the supply voltages didn’t change. They actually did. As transformers are upgraded or taps are adjusted, supplies aim towards delivering 230V +/- 6%

The standard was also adopted by CENELEC (the European electrical standards agency). This isn’t an EU body, and many countries are members, but the standards are compulsory and enforced in the EU, whereas they’re opt-in in any other country that’s a member, but are mostly adhered to quite tightly.

It was also adopted by the IEC for 220-240V countries, so Australia and NZ for example are probably now officially 230V / 400V rather than 240/415V

The general idea is that it made a petty difference vanish and made appliance manufacturer more efficient in Europe and beyond.

There’s a similar issue with the North American spec, where Mexico and several other places use 127V, which is an obsolete European standard, once used in France etc. Some like Mexico use it at 60Hz, others use 50Hz, but it’s a mess as it can burn out some appliances.

Japan also continues to use 100V 50/60Hz which, similar minor difference, which can mean a Japanese appliance might burn out used in the USA or Canada, even tho the plugs are compatible.

South Korea also moved from US style 110V 60Hz to Schuko plugs and 220V 60Hz … another odd variant.

In general CEE 7 colloquially referred to as “Schuko” has become the de facto standard throughout Europe (and beyond). The British system is a total outlier, while you’ve a number of national systems (Italian and Danish in the EU) and Swiss that are compatible only with the smaller “Europlug” used on ungrounded, small appliances or in the Danish case, also with ungrounded 16amp CEE plugs used on say vacuum cleaners and so on.

The Danish system is basically being slowly phased out, as nobody else uses it. The same is happening in Italy, but in a slower way. The Italian system is more compact but offers no safety advantages and the Danish one is dangerously compatible with grounded Schuko plugs, bur doesn’t connect the ground. It’s generally not a major safety concern in Denmark as RCD/GFCIs have been compulsory for a very long time.

The British system isn’t going to change. Nor is the Swiss one.

Ireland, Cyprus and Malta may have to look at changing to Schuko, if the U.K. drifts out of harmonisation on electrical standards after Brexit. Plugs are a fairly trivial matter but things like phone chargers, WiFi boosters, even power-strips and extension cords need to comply with CE and the Low Voltage Directive. Only simple plugs & sockets are excluded and left to national regulation. So if all of a sudden U.K. spec mobile phone chargers are not EU standard, we’ve an issue.



This post was last edited 07/26/2021 at 09:11
Post# 1124149 , Reply# 10   7/26/2021 at 09:33 (997 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        

You are right James, Australia and NZ changed from 240V to 230V.

Western Australia used to be 250V, that and hard water made WA hard on kettle elements...
Post# 1124151 , Reply# 11   7/26/2021 at 09:42 (997 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
CE approval

 As far as I know, the CE mark is to be replaced by the UKCA mark for Great Britain (England, Wales, Scotland).

Northern Ireland appears to be of a more complicated situation with both the UKNI and the CE mark required in tandem on goods.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO Rolls_rapide's LINK
Post# 1124154 , Reply# 12   7/26/2021 at 11:22 (997 days old) by iej (.... )        

I’d assume the two will continue to operate in tandem. I’ve even seen US devices carrying UL, CE and other marks.

The issue is narrow tho - mostly impacts things that might be U.K. specific eg WiFi extender plugs or stuff like that.

Ireland used 220V 50Hz historically, and Siemens type Diazed and Neozed household fuses. Before the early 1960s, Schuko was the usual plug and socket system here too. You’ll sometimes find relics of it in old houses.

At the time the U.K. system wasn’t standardised. You’d multiple round pin plugs and sockets, that were all mutually incompatible, as well as several competing standards for a new plug to work with ring circuits. So, we didn’t adopt BS1363 (which defined in IS 401 here) until it became an established standard, which wasn’t really until the 1960s. It existed from 1948 onwards but it took a decade for it to be fully adopted in Britain as the only standard to be used for general purpose outlets.

The main reason we adopted it was to avoid people plugging Schuko plugs into old U.K. round pin socket outlets, which often also cropped here up unofficially. The plugs fit into 5amp BS546 but make very poor contact and don’t connect the ground.

The BS1363 rectangular pin system was specifically designed to be physically incompatible with the various U.K. legacy systems for similar reasons (a mess of different sizes of round pin plugs)z it’s almost impossible to jam a wider pinned, earthed Schuko plug into the current U.K. outlets too. The mandatory shutters came much earlier than on Schuko designs too, so it was adopted in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland simultaneously.

We didn’t, however, adopt 240V, use ring circuits or U.K. type fusing. So it’s a bit like a hybrid of continental style wiring with U.K. socket outlets and wall switches.

It’s hard to know how to electrical appliances will be dealt with in NI, but it doesn’t make any real sense for the U.K. to go way off on different standards. It’s a global market.

The concern here is more is more one that standards aren’t allows to slide. That doesn’t seem likely, but with the current batch of “to hell with red tape” (standards) who knows?

It’s a relatively minor issue though. If push comes to shove we’ll just have a decade of adapters and CEE 7.

Post# 1124155 , Reply# 13   7/26/2021 at 11:32 (997 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
250 volts

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250 volts I think would have been ideal for most of the world, a nice even number so to speak. But it is what it is I guess.

 

@IEJ: Great info! Not much I can add other than well said and I agree.

 

@Combo: There is something else wrong with those ranges. The upper limit for 230 volts is 253 volts which is rarely exceeded in the US. Not saying it can't/doesn't happen, but rarely do you measure anything over than 126 volts at an outlet in the US.   

 

 
Post# 1124160 , Reply# 14   7/26/2021 at 12:13 (997 days old) by iej (.... )        

250V is used for nominal ratings of wiring accessories.

You’ll see 16 Amps 250 V.

In reality, whatever the nominal voltage used, you need some headroom for any spikes. It’s not a very good idea to fly close to the upper end of the design tolerance.

Appliances will perform optimally on whatever voltage and frequency they were deigned for.

It must have been tough for a market like Western Australia, as it’s not big enough to be in a bubble of it’s own spec, so you’d have had 220-240V appliances being sold and a risk of shortening lifespans of certain devices.
Electronic devices, with switching power supplies, don’t care as long as they’re fed AC between 100V and 250V. They’re all effectively the same device in all markets, just with a different pin layout for the plugs.

I don’t know what the tolerance for US power is, but if you’re using 230V European appliances, you need to keep working +/- 10% and ideally +/-6%.

Beyond 253 volts is not advisable.

The US specs also have followed IEC harmonisation, so in theory your 240 (nameplate 230V) should be just about ok with EU 230V appliances. The supply voltage would likely be similar to the old U.K. or Australian 240V spec. Just be careful if you’re using older appliances though, with a 220V only nameplate.

254.4V for example is mentioned in US utilisation specs. That’s beyond the upper limits of EU appliance voltage tolerances. They might survive it, but then again they might not last.

Generally though, you should be fine, although I wouldn’t guarantee you’d have a warranty!



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Post# 1124176 , Reply# 15   7/26/2021 at 14:44 (997 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
114-126

 chetlaham's profile picture

I can confirm this is typical for the US. Anything over 127 volts is rare. 

 

If you ask me elevated voltage isn't that big of a deal, at least with the Chinese appliances I've dealt with.


Post# 1124182 , Reply# 16   7/26/2021 at 17:19 (997 days old) by iej (.... )        

Typical domestic appliances are fairly robust. You can sometimes run into issues with sensitive equipment or with reduction of lifespan of elements, filaments and motors.

It really shouldn’t make much difference though.

Post# 1124184 , Reply# 17   7/26/2021 at 17:43 (997 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Yup. But either way its worth it. A 3000 watt griddle is a difference you can FEEL.
Post# 1124365 , Reply# 18   7/29/2021 at 00:21 (995 days old) by askolover (South of Nash Vegas, TN)        

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I've been thinking about running a 240 circuit to my kitchen by the stove to use a commercial induction cooktop.  Much more wattage.
Post# 1124370 , Reply# 19   7/29/2021 at 05:57 (994 days old) by vacerator (Macomb, Michigan)        
Canada began with 220 volts.

 Or was it D.C. current?
When the Canadian govt. decided to change the power grid, they replaced everyones appliances with 110 volt ones, so I was told.

Post# 1124382 , Reply# 20   7/29/2021 at 10:34 (994 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Do It!

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Once you experience better cooking other things will follow! 


Post# 1124445 , Reply# 21   7/30/2021 at 08:33 (993 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

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Are the circular round-pin outlets as shown in the first photo UL listed? Obviously they work just fine, just wonder if they run afoul of any US NEC or local wiring ordinances. I think I'd want to run NEMA outlets in my home just to stay standard.

Post# 1124461 , Reply# 22   7/30/2021 at 10:52 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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The schuko socket is not UL listed, however it is a name brand Legrand intended to be installed in any country that uses them including those with high standards.  
Post# 1124480 , Reply# 23   7/30/2021 at 13:22 (993 days old) by kb0nes (Burnsville, MN)        

kb0nes's profile picture
Did a bit of Google'ing around over lunch. While I didn't find anything explicitly stating you can't legally use the Schuko sockets in the US, the consensus is you likely won't pass inspection if that ever needs to happen. There is nothing physically with the high quality European sockets of course, but who knows if it might ever cause a problem. It could possibly be a reason for an Insurance claim to be denied etc.

The prudent thing to do just to be safe would be to install NEMA 6-15 receptacles and use a cord to adapt (or change the plug on the appliances).

I can certainly see the merit in having some 240v outlets in the home. I'd like to have one of those high output Induction units also. I have an 1.5 kilowatt RF amplifier that would really perform better on a 240v circuit also but I've never got around to changing that over.

Post# 1124481 , Reply# 24   7/30/2021 at 13:40 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Technically

 chetlaham's profile picture

One could site 210.6 (A) in the NEC. But, an inspector would have no way of knowing what would get plugged in a random 6-15 outlet.  

 

I just install that 240 outlet and not think about it.

 

One warning: Do not every put a standard North American table lamp on 240- the bulb screw shell will be energized at 120 volts while unscrewing the bulb.  
Post# 1124483 , Reply# 25   7/30/2021 at 13:54 (993 days old) by iej (.... )        

In general it's nothing to do with the quality of the fittings, but there are standards and wiring codes that are very specific because they are a system. You shouldn't really go outside an electrical code in any country. They're designed for specific grounding systems, types of circuits and and so on and work safely when used as intended.

I had an issue here in Ireland with NEMA plugs at a university. There were a couple of pieces of quite obscure audio equipment which had been brought over by someone I was working with who was based both in the US and here.

He had installed a small transformer and some US NEMA 15 amp outlets. It was a BIG issue when the buildings services inspector spotted it.

The only way they could be used was by changing the plugs to a recognised standard here. So they had to be used with BS546 plugs, with sleeved pins. They're allowed for switched or dimmer controlled circuits, so were permitted for 110V. They wouldn't allow NEMA plugs due to the standard not being recognised but also because of the exposed pins.

You also get into issue with any non-standard equipment used in stage lighting rights e.g. a visiting band, as there is a requirement for EN 60309 "CEEform" (Commando) plugs and sockets.

It comes down to regulations, standards and insurance.

Light fittings:

European standard lamps are different design to an American E26 type.

E27 bulb sockets have a cuff that extends much further than a US one and are only powered when the bulb is firmly seated in the screw, so you don't get any finger contact possibilities.

The UK, Ireland and France also use bayonet cap bulbs, along side E27.

Do not use a Schuko socket with a US lamp. It would potentially expose live screw parts, but any exposed bulb socket does anyway.

The other point I would make is that European outlets are normally on an RCD (GFCI). I don't know if you have installed coverage on those. It wouldn't comply with modern European norms to have them just sitting on a circuit breaker.

Some bayonet fittings, the pendant shown actually retracts the pins when the bulb isn't inserted, completely shielding you from shock.

Light fittings, as of more recent regs, are required to be on RCDs (GFCIs) too.

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This post was last edited 07/30/2021 at 14:33
Post# 1124485 , Reply# 26   7/30/2021 at 14:13 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Freiheit Schoner Gotterfunken Tochter Aus Elysium

 chetlaham's profile picture

The beautiful thing about the US Constitution is that people can use whatever standard they want to use free of persecution. There is nothing more beautiful, and nothing more terrifying to despots than someone who is capable of thinking on their own.  
Post# 1124486 , Reply# 27   7/30/2021 at 14:20 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
RCDs

 chetlaham's profile picture

RCDs in Europe are in large part driven by the fact its possible to mate various types of plugs to a schuko socket without having a ground.

 

Having an intact equipment grounding conductor with an earth fault loop impedance capable of opening a breaker in 0.8 seconds or less eliminates the possibility of an internal ground fault being fatal.  

 

Because the UK had earthing on all metal appliances and a socket systems that would not open its shutters unless an earth pin was inserted first allowed RCDs to be implemented much latter than in mainland Europe.    
Post# 1124488 , Reply# 28   7/30/2021 at 14:31 (993 days old) by iej (.... )        
RCDs

 Reliable earthing is certainly important, and it's been mandatory here for as long as there's been sockets.

Schuko was used here from the early days of rollout to the late 1950s, but non-grounded outlets were never allowed. So, unlike the continent we never really had an issue with non-grounded sockets, as they were never installed.

There were a few continental countries mandated grounded outlets by the 1930s too, but France and Germany certainly weren't included in that list. It was common to have a mix of grounded and non-grounded depending on what the risks in the room were e.g. grounded in the kitchen, but not grounded in an upstairs bedroom. Never understood the logic of that, considering it was a tiny cost saving on fixed wiring. Seemed to be just adding more complexity for no reason.

(That resulted in the 'cooker control unit' to be banned as cooking appliances weren't required to be on RCDs until recently. A cooker control unit is an isolator switch on on side for a large, hardwired cooking appliance and a normal 13 amp switched socket on the other side. Originally they were probably handy for electric kettles near cookers.)

RCD (GFCI) coverage was then extended to all lighting / fan circuits feeding bathrooms (sockets and touchable switches are banned) and then in more recent regulations to all circuits.

The latest addition is arc fault protection, which just came in in the most recent regs and is being rolled out in any buildings that contains sleeping areas, or high risk of fires. They came into vogue in the US earlier, largely because you've totally different type of building construction, involving a lot more wood.

Most buildings here have masonry block construction, usually including the internal walls.

Here in Ireland we used the same fittings as the UK and very similar bonding requirements, but mandated RCDs in the late 1970s for socket circuits supplying anything under 32amps, water heaters, central heating equipment.

Earthing here is TN-C-S in almost all installations. TT (local ground rods only) is permitted only if TN-C-S is impossible due to unusual geology, which is extremely rare and if that's done you have a higher ratted RCD across the whole installation as well as every circuit on standard RCDs.

TN-C-S means that your grounding system in your house is connected to local ground rods, and to the supply neutral at the meter. The supply neutral is then connected to grounding electrodes at regular intervals all the way back to the transformer, which itself is heavily grounded. This picks up any stray neutrals etc.

All of the metal surfaces in the house, including plumbing fittings are then bonded to the grounding system of the house wiring. The logic of this is to create 'equipotential zones' so that there's never any potential difference between say a radiator or a sink and a metal appliance, on the off chance that there was ever a broken neutral in the network outside or some weird fault.

The idea of that system is to ensure a very low ground loop resistance and a very rapid tripping of breakers / burning of fuses if there's a fault. So, you should get near instantaneous tripping in fault to earth.

That system is very very safe, but it does not protect you against a shock if you manage to connect yourself between a live wire and ground or neutral. No grounding system can protect against that, so that's where RCDs (GFCIs) came in for personal protection.


Post# 1124489 , Reply# 29   7/30/2021 at 14:41 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Right- and with schuko scokets its possible to have have the live and neutral mate, but not the earth with plugs from other parts of the EU.

 

AFDDs came about in the US due to a lack of earth fault loop impedance requirements increasing breaker trip times on shorted cables. The IEC world doesn't need AFDDs, at all. I have PDFs I can upload on that subject if interested. Not sure if this forum supports PDFs.
Post# 1124490 , Reply# 30   7/30/2021 at 14:46 (993 days old) by iej (.... )        

AFDDs were adopted in the latest regulations here because of timber frame construction being popularised and because of more apartments and taller buildings being envisaged.

Also, I think the cost and practicality of adding AFDDs has just dropped to the point that they're no longer a major consideration anymore, so they're being added.

The current regs I.S. 10101:2020 adopted them.

The USA was always much, much more concerned about fire hazards, primarily due to the construction techniques used there - i.e. all-wooden buildings and also because of the prevalence of high rise.

A smouldering circuit in a wooden frame building can be catastrophic, where as a similar incident in a block and plaster wall can just burn out.

That's primarily why you have had requirements for metal conduit for all cables and so on in the US whereas in Europe that has been far less of a concern in most circumstances.

AFDD technologies have just also come of age too and become cost effective and practical to install. The cost vs the benefits didn't necessarily add up in the context of this part of the world, given the construction standard differences, other than in highly sensitive locations like high rise, until quite recently.

---

With regard to Schuko, as counterintuitive as it may sound, the original logic of it was that grounded / earthed appliances *should* be able to be plugged into non-grounded sockets, but that 'Class 0' appliances (i.e. old appliances that had no double insulation or earth protection - banned since the 1970s) should only be able to be connected to non grounded sockets.

The design of wiring in houses was such that grounded sockets were in areas with conductive floors, sources of water etc e.g. kitchens and bathrooms, perhaps hallways etc, but that in areas with wooden floors, non-grounded sockets were allowed.

So, you could plug a Schuko (or a French/Belgian) grounded plug into any socket in the house, but you could not plug an old Class-0 appliance plug into such a socket as it wouldn't physically fit, so you were limited to using those appliances in rooms that were naturally insulated.

It was a pre 1950s concept of optional grounding safety. Also, people simply wired Class-0 appliances to Schuko plugs, without connecting the ground, so ended up using them in very risky contexts like wet areas.

I don't think the ESB here ever accepted that mythology as all socket outlets, whether BS or Schuko were grounded.

AFAIK, the same concept applied with BS546 systems i.e. the old BS196 2 pin outlets were in theory only ever to be used in safe locations that didn't need grounding, and were a different pin gauge to the 3-pin variety, so you couldn't plug a 2 pin plug into a 3 pin socket in the old British system, but a kludge of adaptors made it very possible, and dangerously so.

Over complicated systems that worked counter intuitively. It made far more sense to just have all grounded sockets and ban Class 0 entirely.

The current UK system (introduced in the late 40s but only mandated in the 60s) was designed to basically render all the previous systems entirely incompatible with it and force upgrades, hence the rectangular pins and so on.



This post was last edited 07/30/2021 at 15:08
Post# 1124492 , Reply# 31   7/30/2021 at 14:54 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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You're wiring already mitigates high current arcing, so timber frame construction would make no difference and neither would AFDDs. Regs can mandate whatever, the big 5 companies (Eaton, Schneider, ABB, Siemens, Legrand) control them and the IEC.
Post# 1124493 , Reply# 32   7/30/2021 at 15:04 (993 days old) by iej (.... )        

High current arcing isn't the only the cause of fire. You can get smouldering, fizzing arcs that aren't high enough to trip a protective fuse or breaker, but will be detected by an AFDD.

In general though the standards as they are aren't exactly prone to fire anyway.

The single biggest risk is obsolete installations or bad DIY work.

They went fairly strict on DIY work here too. You're now limited to basically like-for-like replacement of switches/sockets etc, and entirely banned from doing any work whatsoever in a bathroom.

Adding a circuit to the panel or working on a bathroom fitting etc here, without being a registered electrical contractor became a criminal offence, so basically for DIY work you're very limited in what you can do.

Post# 1124494 , Reply# 33   7/30/2021 at 15:11 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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UL did lab testing showing that parellel arcing always passes more than a dozen amps, and even if high impedance arcs (<60 amps) were the case thats where RCDs come in.

 

Here is an example. The 16 amp fuse caught the arcing going on here, but when the owner changed it to a 32 amp fuse thats when it went undetected:

 

 




 

 
Post# 1124495 , Reply# 34   7/30/2021 at 15:14 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

From the video's description:

 

This is a fault in an electrical cable we found at a coolstore - this cable had been run illegally with no physical protection and the 16 Amp fuse had been replaced with a 32 Amp fuse when the fault blew the first fuse. Due to the cable size and length the fault current was not enough to blow the larger fuse - this would have eventually kept blowing until it reached flammable material and a major fire would have started. At ETS we offer electrical safety audits for all our customers. Call us now on 0800 236782 (within New Zealand) to arrange an electrical safety audit.

 

 
Post# 1124504 , Reply# 35   7/30/2021 at 18:13 (993 days old) by iej (.... )        

They pick up series arcs quite nicely though, which aren't always high current.

For example, if you've a loose termination in a junction or behind a fitting, a loose contact in a connection device like a socket outlet or a bulb holder that's fizzling away gently, that'll get picked up and it won't be detected by a simple MCB (Circuit Breaker) or RCD (GFCI).

A parallel arc or an arc to earth is more likely to be picked up by conventional means.

Post# 1124519 , Reply# 36   7/30/2021 at 20:45 (993 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Series arcing is the end stage of joule heating, in addition to the fact US AFCIs stop looking for series events under 5 amps. 

 

I know these devices are being sold as the latest and greatest, but everyone in the industry knows they are not the holy grail in fire protection the big players make them out to be.

 

 
Post# 1124532 , Reply# 37   7/30/2021 at 22:59 (993 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

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Overhere in the Netherlands you can work on electrical installations yourself, but you will have to get an approvement from a certified electrician before you can connect the electricity again. Small jobs excluded from that rule like putting in a new socket.

Only grounded sockets allowed since 1996, whole house GFCI's mandatory since 1975.

Post# 1124571 , Reply# 38   7/31/2021 at 15:30 (992 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Joule Heating

 chetlaham's profile picture

Here is a video of a device which is designed to detect 95% of all electrical fires (starting at 11:29):

 




?t=648

 

Post# 1124602 , Reply# 39   7/31/2021 at 19:29 (992 days old) by iej (.... )        

Grounded sockets here were made mandatory in the early 1930s, so you won't find anything non-grounded anywhere really. Either 'Schuko' or the older, non-fused, 3 round pin UK type (mostly only the larger 15amp version) were used. The BS546 round pin sockets were also shuttered, going way back to the 1930s - other than the lack of sheathed pins, they had most of the features of the current UK system, only were significantly clunkier!

 

The 15 amp round pin plug is a ludicrously big device, but was commonly found on even table lamps here!

 

It would be extremely rare to find a 'two pin' (Schuko) installation in service nowadays. Maybe if you went back to the 1970s or 80s, but they're long gone, as is BS546 (round pin UK type). They were common enough in some homes wired in the 50s/60s too.

 

In modern installations, the 5amp modern version of those plugs continues to be used for sockets that are controlled by light switches or dimmers. E.g. if you want to have your standard lamps or table lamps to come on / be controllable by the dimmer at the door, those are the outlets used. 

 

A rubberised 15 amp BS546 plug was also standard for theatre / stage lighting rigs, but has been replaced by modern 'CEEform' connectors in modern installations. These are the exact same as the blue industrial plugs used all across Europe, except they're usually black to make them less visually obtrusive.

 

Mandatory RCD on sockets was 1978, but you'd find them on older installations too.

 

Those are the 5amp plug sand sockets used for side lamps - they're still compatible with their 1930s-50s predecessors, and are still used as the mainstream plugs in India.

 

Also a theatre dimmer pack, using BS546 plugs.

 

Schuko was never used here in theatre.

 

'Powercon' is also used quite a lot throughout modern theatrical installations. These are IP rated, robust and very compact.
  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size


This post was last edited 07/31/2021 at 19:47
Post# 1124619 , Reply# 40   7/31/2021 at 22:33 (992 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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The UK is the most advanced on earth, by far, when it comes to electrics.
Post# 1124632 , Reply# 41   8/1/2021 at 03:03 (991 days old) by iej (.... )        

U.K. regs evolved and some aspects are stronger than others. There was always a lot of emphasis on grounding and child safety (shuttering), but they were slow to adopt things like RCDs and had rewireable fuse holders in distribution panels until modern circuit breakers arrived.

The old BS546 system (replaced in the 1950s but took a while before it stopped being installed) was a bit of excessively complicated kludge of plugs and outlets. You had at least 3 common, and different sized 3 pin plugs. 2amp, 5amp and 15amp and these were not mutually compatible. So in a living room you might have had a couple of 5amp socket outlets for the television and a 15amp next to the fireplace and maybe a 2amp for a lamp.

The kitchen might have had a coupe of 15 amp sockets. Bedrooms could have had 5amp or 2amp.

Then to complicate it further, there were another 3 mutually incompatible 2 pin (ungrounded) type outlets and plugs from an older system that were still to be found as late as the 1970s.

The reality in older wiring was a mess of adapters in use. If you wanted to move the vacuum cleaner from room to room, you might have needed 5amp and 15amp plugs. Appliances were also delivered without plugs, as it wasn’t possible to determine what type of plug a householder might want to use.

It was one of the EEC low voltage directives in the 1980s than banned that practice, requiring moulded plugs.

BS1363 (the current system) replaced all of that with a single plug (with a fuse that can be rated 3, 5, 10 or 13 Amps). In modern times, only 3amp or 13amp fuses are used. The intermediate sizes aren’t deemed particularly useful.

Ireland originally had used Schuko, but only the grounded type of outlets were ever installed. There’s a non grounded version of CEE 7 outlets commonly used in older wiring on continent. A few countries however, used only grounded outlets.

We abandoned Schuko in the early 1960s and also BS546, but only the 15 amp version was typically used as an alternative to Schuko. The full range of U.K. round pin sockets weren’t common here in Ireland.

The present day rectangular pin plugs replaced everything and became mandatory. The U.K. round pin system was completely retired, but still used for like for like replacement for a time and for special purposes (lamp sockets) and here in Ireland Schuko and BS546 remained defined in standards, but only really as a reference.

The only place I’ve ever seen Schuko in a modern installation here is as a supplementary socket in hotel rooms. They often install one at the dressing table / desk just as a convenience for continental European visitors, and to avoid adapter use / people attempting to ram 2 pin plugs into Irish standard sockets.

Shuttering of sockets has been mandatory in both jurisdictions for a very long time, and even went as far as to cover landline phone sockets. The RJ11 jacks used here since the late 1970s (same configuration as the US/Canada) generally had a flap that springs down to cover the terminals. The U.K. used its own version, which is basically like a larger RJ11 turned sideways and has a similar setup.

The logic seems to have been that network ringing voltages, in theory, could be beyond what was considered safe to touch. The voltage used is very similar to the US or continental EU networks though, so it’s just being extremely safety conscious.

PSTN/POTS is rapidly heading to the museum of technological history though!

Irish phone jack (probably from the early 80s) you could plug a US phone straight into this and it would work - more or less the same electrically, and the pin out is the same, but note the flap protecting the terminals.




This post was last edited 08/01/2021 at 03:55
Post# 1129041 , Reply# 42   9/18/2021 at 18:12 (943 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Older UK installations

 Sorry to boost this thread back to the top, but only just spotted it... I have been incredibly busy over the Summer with work and domestic committments :-(

The house I grew up in (built and wired in the mid 1930s had BS546 15 amp sockets downstairs (usually 1 per room), and 30 amp 2-pin BS196 sockets upstairs. It appears that in the absence of any plumbing in the bedrooms (the only places with sockets), it was considered safer not to have any Earth connections upstairs at all, since wooden floors and papered walls were seen as at least 'reasonably' insulating. Smaller plugs and 'inter-series' adaptation were accommodated with a plethora of plug-in adaptors, which continued long after the adaptation of BS1363. My mother's house was rewired and converted to BS1363 (complete with a 'new-fangled' RCD, a large 'moving coil' device, almost as large as the 'fuse box', (which was still full of rewireable fuses), but an improvement on the old ' one 30 amp switch/fuse for power, one 5 amp switch/fuse for lighting) in the mid 1970s. My parents still had a few 'seldom used' appliances with 5 amp BS546 plugs on them until 2000 or later. I still have several examples of the adaptors, (pre- and post- BS1363) many of which were very much 'multi-way'/'multi standard'! I can post photographs, if anyone is interested.

Voltage at my house usually ranges between 237 and 245 volts, and really hasn't changed since the 'harmonisation' took place. I should still have the letter announcing the 'change' somewhere, though it implied that, as 240V was 'within range', nothing would change, and, for a very long time, nothing did change.

I'm sure there were more points to comment on, and, if I spot them again, I'll append another post!!

As always, I hope that some of this is of interest to at least a few members.

All best

Dave T


Post# 1129057 , Reply# 43   9/18/2021 at 20:58 (943 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
Please do post photos

 I would love to see the weird and wacky ways the British have wired electricity into their home

Post# 1129076 , Reply# 44   9/19/2021 at 05:13 (942 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
We rewired in 2017

ozzie908's profile picture
All new enclosed in metal circuit breaker box as per new rulings each circuit is now protected by its own rcd etc and its all extremely safe, The kitchen has its own circuit and so does the laundry area and its odd how if anything trips that not all circuits switch off I guess its good for safety but when you are used to a whole house going dark when it trips out I feel its not doing its job but of course it is. In my shed I had a separate circuit to the house with RCD's built into the sockets/outlets but if a machine goes wrong and trips the power it still switches the house off which I wanted to avoid but its to do with the earthing apparently .... All in all a great job and more than enough sockets in the kitchen but why do modern electricians put all the room sockets in the bloody corners???

PS Dave I remember the 15amp round pin plugs and the multi adapters needed for different plugs in fact have some in the shed somewhere rescued from the house move etc...

Austin

Post# 1129163 , Reply# 45   9/20/2021 at 16:58 (941 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Photographs

 I will dig out a few of the more 'interesting' adaptors, etc, and take/post some pictures. One (if I can find it) was sold as a 'Universal' adaptor..... Theoretically, it converts 'most things' to 'most things'.... But is fiddly to use, and looks fairly lethal!!

All best

Dave T


Post# 1129244 , Reply# 46   9/21/2021 at 19:42 (940 days old) by iej (.... )        

Under older British wiring regs, and it is going back quite a long way, they didn’t accept that you could safely plug a small appliance into a 15 amp circuit. So you had different sized plugs that got progressively bigger as the rating went up.

There was also a system of 2 pin, non-grounded plugs, the only modern relic of which survives as the plug used for toothbrushes and shavers.

By design, no plug was comparable with a socket of a different rating, and no two pin plug could fit a 3 pin socket outlets.

In theory you were supposed to have a 2 amp appliance with a 2 amp plug on a 2 amp circuit and so on. In practice people used adapters, multi fit adjustable plugs and also quite commonly wired small appliances with 15amp plugs.

Ireland used Schuko on 16 amp radials, but we also used BS546 15amp sockets as an alternative. So it was a bit like a continental or US circuit design philosophy, with only one of the BS546 plug types.

The modern rectangular pin, fused plugs were designed to the same philosophy (as well as ring circuits) in mind but allowed you to protect an appliance cord with anything from 3 to 13amp fusing locally, in the plug itself.

In reality, you often found plenty of small appliances were wired to plugs with 13amp fuses, giving you similar protection to North America or Continental Europe and in modern times only the 3 and 13 amp fuses are generally sold. The intermediate ratings are more obscure, but you’ll often find them in moulded plugs, especially the 10amp fuse.

The plus side of the U.K. system is you shouldn’t be able to overload a socket. An extension cord for example has a 13 amp or 10amp fuse in the plug, so if you overload it it just blows.

However, for some inexplicable reason they allow unfused double adapters (two plugs into one socket) and only require a fuse on a triple adapter block.

If you put two high power devices into a double adapter and plug it into a ring circuit, it won’t trip anything and is a fire hazard.

ie.rs-online.com/web/p/travel-ad...

Never understood that one.

Post# 1129265 , Reply# 47   9/22/2021 at 06:37 (939 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)        

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Was intrigued at a friend who did a couple of expat tours: first was in Heilbronn, Germany, thence to Glasgow, Scotland. Visited them in both places. One of the tasks for his wife during the move from Germany to UK was to wait for the electrical installer to change out all the plugs on the appliances (it was just one of the tasks that one did; like here in the US getting the washer/dryer ready for the movers).

Post# 1129489 , Reply# 48   9/24/2021 at 09:47 (937 days old) by iej (.... )        

Well, yeah. Although the majority of Europe uses the same plugs.

 

CEE 7/7 plugs are used in all areas of Europe except:

 

1. UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta (BS1363)

2. Switzerland (national standard, unique to Switzerland).

3. Denmark (national standard, unique to Denmark, used along side CEE 7 sockets now)

4. Italy (national standard unique to Italy but used in a few places in South America - also now co-exists with CEE 7/7)

 

So, really plug changes in Europe are an issue only in a few places.
Post# 1129525 , Reply# 49   9/24/2021 at 19:44 (937 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
Must be nice!

I would die for my Miele U1 to have the ability to run both motors at full power as designed! Don't even get me started on the thought of my Kenmore being able to do a 90º wash.

Post# 1129628 , Reply# 50   9/26/2021 at 07:50 (935 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
'Older' UK installations

 Going back to Reply #46, as BS546 plugs were unfused, in larger intallations, sockets of the correct rating fused appropriately at the distribution board would be used. In reality 'small' installations (ie most 2/3 bedroom terraced / semi-detached houses) had two 'switch-fuses' fed from the meter, one (30 amp rewireable) labelled 'Sockets', the other (10 amp rewireable) labelled 'Lights'. This was the only protection (other than the (back then, usually 60 amp) Supply Authority Cut Out) for any part of the installation. Over a period of time, many householders would 'rewire' the carrier with any piece of random wire he/she could find, so protection was often of decidedly 'doubtful' effectiveness!

The house I grew up in (built and wired in 1934) had this system, and had BS196 30Amp two-pin sockets upstairs, but many homes (especially older ones which originally had gas lighting) had NO sockets upstairs, only electric lighting, which gave rise to the development of 'adaptors' to allow the connection of an appliance (such as an electric iron, radio, or even television) into the (bayonet cap) light socket on the bedroom ceiling.
I have found a couple of these devices, and will post pictures soon, but unfortunately, I am in the middle of a 'time critical' project until the end of the month, so finding adaptors, photographing them, and getting the image files onto my computer will have to wait for a week or so.

All best

Dave T


Post# 1129636 , Reply# 51   9/26/2021 at 09:25 (935 days old) by iej (.... )        
Old Irish Installation

This was probably the absolute smallest, cheapest, and most basic 1940s/50s setup here and was often found in houses that took the most basic package on the Rural Electrification Scheme after WWII.

 

ESB (power company) provided a very simple combined meter and fuse board.

It contained a main main fuse (the box at the bottom) and 3 circuits - most likely 1 x 10 amp for the lights and 2 x 16 amp for the sockets, all of which were 'Diazed' fuses.

 

Most old houses would have had a couple of rows of fuses.

 

pbs.twimg.com/media/EVAk257UwAQQ...

 

The boards were made by Siemens subsidiary in Ireland.

 

(Diazed / Type D fuses are explained very well here: http://plugsocketmuseum.nl/DistributionBoard_NL.html )

 

The cartridge fuses look like little ceramic bottles and each tip is a different size depending on the rating. There's a ring fitted inside the fuse holder, which will only accept the correct (or smaller) tip size based on diameter (hence the diazed name)

 

They were originally a Siemens design, but became generic and common across Europe. There's also a smaller version called Neozed and also Minized. You'll still find them in use, particularly in industrial equipment.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO iej's LINK
Post# 1129641 , Reply# 52   9/26/2021 at 09:48 (935 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
That combined meter and fuse board look a lot like my maternal grandparents had in their "meterkast". One of the three fuses was for a two burner electric cooktop. The electrical installation in that house was from the 1930's most likely. The other two fuses were 10 amps. I remember the bedrooms, or at least some of them didn't have sockets. However there was a socket on the landing, IIRC with an on/off switch.

Post# 1129646 , Reply# 53   9/26/2021 at 10:43 (935 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
Funny thing is, I’m getting a D-Type fuse board coming

From Germany, and it doesn’t have replaceable few things, and uses circuit breakers, I’m using it to replace the vintage fuses here which are wire based, so if someone blew a fuse on a circuit they would take the fuse out replace the wire inside and push it back in

Post# 1129816 , Reply# 54   9/28/2021 at 08:49 (933 days old) by iej (.... )        

Diazed was a very solid system and was used here well into the 1980s. Some electricians were quite slow to move over to MCBs, so you'd have still found plenty of 1980s boards with rows of Diazed fuses and an RCD.

 

We still continue to use a single Minized switch-fuse isolator as the main consumer fuse on the board, just after the main switch.

 

Fusing here is like this:

 

Network side (sealed)

[Network] === [Main Fuse] === [Meter] === [Earth-Neutral bond for TN-C-S earthing] === [Demarkation Switch (Rotary)] === (to consumer tails)

 

Consumer side:

(consumer tails) === [Isolating switch] === [consumer's main fuse/main breaker] === [RCDs/MCBs/RCBOs for final circuits] === final circuits. 

 

You've also got a layer of local fusing i.e. in plug tops (1 to 13 amps) and fixed appliances are usually connected through a fused connection unit, which contains a two pole switch and a fuse.

 

The demarkation is present in modern installations (since the 1990s). It's a rotary switch use used by the electrical contractor to 'energise' the supply when they sign off on a new installation. It's also used to fully isolate the supply externally in the event of a fire / problem, as it's located in a meter cabinet it can be tripped without entering the building. 

 

Commercial buildings, shops and apartments etc usually have a 'fireman's switch' outside the building that can be tripped with a pole to isolate the supply in the event of a fire.

 

See FCU (Fused Connection Unit) below. We use these for connection of say anything from a hand dryer in a commercial bathroom, to gas boilers, pumps, and also built in appliances where the plugs are in accessible are usually wired to one of these (with the cable outlet down below). You typically use a hardwired connection. It avoids any potential issue with an inaccessible plug fuse and gives you the ability to isolate the appliance.

 

We've a bit of a crossover between German/Northern European and British standards in Ireland. It's a bit like BS met DIN.

 

The wiring rules here, known as I.S. 10101 : 2020 are somewhat similar to the UK, but there are differences. Increasingly they're much more in line with harmonised IEC and CENELEC standards.

 

Fixtures and fittings at the end of circuits (switches, sockets, etc) are identical to the UK. Distribution boards and the type of wires used are a bit different.

 

Commercial wiring here, in industrial contexts, is probably a lot closer to other parts of Northern Europe than it is to the UK.
  View Full Size


This post was last edited 09/28/2021 at 09:19
Post# 1129823 , Reply# 55   9/28/2021 at 11:35 (933 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

Sorry but I don't understand how you did that?

Did you connect  the two 120 hot lines togheter on one pole?

I put 120v outlets in my house fed with a 3000w voltage converter.

That is for my 120v vintage appliances.

I prefer US plugs anyway.

Lower european hz  is not a problem for 60hz  but 60hz used with a 50hz motor can be.

 

 
Post# 1129947 , Reply# 56   9/29/2021 at 21:44 (932 days old) by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)        
I actually heard that anything made for 60 Hz specifically

Does have major issues if used on a 50 Hz supply, as the frequency Oversaturates the coils in the transformer/motor and it can cause it to burn out, I’ve had that happen and it’s not fun

Post# 1129989 , Reply# 57   9/30/2021 at 10:49 (931 days old) by Kenmoreguy89 (Valenza Piemonte, Italy- Soon to be US immigrant.)        
I

kenmoreguy89's profile picture

It is decades that I have the same 120v 60hz motor appliances here and works wonderfully.

Mixers blenders vacuums and a washer.

Same for many US appliances ran in Latin America with a transformer, for instance a lot of vintage refrigerators.

Heard a lot of people burning out 50hz appliances with US 60hz though. 

That is a much bigger issue apparently  than using a motor rated for an higher frequency with a lower one.

 

Also I happened to read that using an even lower voltage may help things in that regard of cycle mismatch.

That is the case of Japan that goes with 100v 50hz yet it appears to be lots of US 60hz motor stuff used regularly in Japan without big issues with their lower 100v tension.

 

 


This post was last edited 09/30/2021 at 11:10
Post# 1130592 , Reply# 58   10/7/2021 at 03:04 (924 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)        

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A theoretical advantage of 220V over 110V is that it takes 1/2 the amperage at 220V to supply the same power as a 110V circuit. So the wiring can be about 1/2 the cross section to carry the same load. All else being equal.

 

I have seen it speculated that the US went with 110V because we are generally richer in terms of natural resources such as copper to make conductors. OTOH, 110V may be safer for humans in case of accidental contact.

 

It should also be noted that in the US, large amounts of power are generally transmitted at much higher voltages. Again, to minimize the conductor cross section needed. This explains the need for step-down transformers to distribute power to businesses and residences that require 110 and/or 220 volts (although of course our split phase 220 volt system has two 110 volt legs).
Post# 1130603 , Reply# 59   10/7/2021 at 08:26 (924 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
why 110 volts?...

 My understanding of the history of 110V supply in the USA was the first power distribution was at 110V DC, the voltage was chosen because it was believed (not sure if it is correct or not) that 110V DC was the highest DC voltage that could not cause electrocution. I read many years ago, can't remember where, that around the late 1800s and early 1900s, 110V was considered the highest "safe"DC voltage and 32 Volts was the highest "safe" AC voltage, which is also why most single-home lighting plants in rural areas used 32 Volts - though the plants were mostly DC, some were AC.
Edison provided DC 110V but the limitations of DC technology at the time meant the electricity had to be generated at the same voltage as final supply, there was no way to step down a higher DC voltage to a lower final voltage, so the DC power stations could only supply a radius of about 1 mile. Power plants were thus small and everywhere.
Westinghouse developed AC systems that generated and distributed power at several thousand volts,AC, and used transformers at the end to supply the final voltage - also 110V as I understand it. (Transformers work on AC only.) Westinghouse's system was much cheaper to supply power, and they were winning contracts left and right to supply new areas.
Edison's company and their allies fought back, advertising that AC was lethal and DC was safe, including public demonstrations of shocking stray dogs with first DC (they survived) and then DC (they died.) There were genuinely many deaths from AC in the early days, in part because there was little regulation and high voltage AC transmission wires were often run close to low voltage telegraph lines, so shorts between the two systems lead to linesmen on the telegraph wires being electrocuted. Edison's very heavy DC supply cables were run underground.

Interestingly, Edison's allies worked to make sure that the first electric chair would be supplied by Westinghouse generators, and when there was discussion of what to call "execution by electricity", they suggested the term "Westinghoused." (Dynamort and Electromort were also suggested, before "electrocuted" was chosen as the preferred term.)

Over time AC systems were made safer and became the main standard, but the initial selection of 110 Volts DC by Edison lead to the standard US voltage remaining 110 Volts even as areas changed to AC.

This has cost the US $millions over the years in heavier cables, higher currents and shorter distances covered after each transformer.

Other countries that adopted electricity later chose to double the supply voltage for efficiency reasons. To to this day we still have a mess of different voltages and frequencies around the world.

The link below tells the interesting tale of the "War of the Currents", the battle between Edison DC and Westinghouse AC in the early days of electric supply.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO gizmo's LINK
Post# 1130611 , Reply# 60   10/7/2021 at 10:45 (924 days old) by iej (.... )        

To be quite honest, Edison was the salesman of his day. He was clever, but he was very good at packaging and marketing. In modern times, someone like Musk for example, has a lot of echos of Edison's showmanship.

 

DC was extremely impractical for distribution. You could not transform the voltage up/down without motor-generator sets, which are inefficient, bulky and noisy. You also have a lot of issues around the types of arcs it generates in switches / at sockets (which limit the voltage) and with galvanic issues where it can pull ions of metal from point to point and either strip a contact surface, or electroplate it. 

 

DC is also quite cumbersome for electric motors, whereas AC can drive them directly. Although, it was easier for big traction motors on trains as you could use variation voltage to control speed. 

 

In the US context, everything happened around Edison and he was the big noise in power. In Europe, there were others, and notably big companies like Siemens, but there was no single system or philosophy for doing things certainly until after WWII and the beginning of pan-European standards for some of these things.

 

For example, the Depford Power Station in London, which was driven by Sebastian de Ferranti's ideas, generated AC back in 1888 at 88 1/3 Hz

 

There were environmental objections to large scale power infrastructure or motor-generator sets in London as they were noisy in the case of the converters or smelly in the case of small coal burning plants, so it was one of the first cities in the world to develop a HV power grid, distributing at 11kV 88 1/3 Hz with domestic / residential and commercial customers being provided with AC single phase connections.

 

AC was also being used in Paris around 1878 - There were AC power systems installed at a Paris Expo mostly for public lighting.

 

This allowed a big plant to be located out of town, thus solved a lot of annoyance with the prospect of ugly infrastructure close to central London.

 

Other cities adopted other systems, including Edison-style DC, but there were a number of standards that were all in existence simultaneously.

 

Some places adopted 3-wire 127V / 220V systems which would be quite comparable to the present day US system. Some adopted DC systems and others adopted systems like 200V 50Hz, 210V 50Hz and ultimately 220V 50Hz.

 

Here in Ireland the power system was nationalised in 1927, with the local power companies being gradually bought up by ESB, standardised and linked to the grid and they picked 220V (380V 3-phase) 50Hz. (There had also been 200 and 210V 50Hz systems in use too.)

 

50Hz seems to have just been a convenient standard as it allowed a balance between flicker free incandescent bulbs and not having to run the generators at very high RPM. It's also 100 peaks / troughs per second, which fits with the logic of metric base-100. 

 

60Hz came about for exactly the same reasons, but was just landed upon possibly because of it being 60 cycles, 60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour etc.

 

They're quite arbitrary.

 

A lot of older European fittings and fixtures are still rated for AC/DC. So, you'll typically see 16Amp / 10 Amp DC because there's a difference in safe current carrying and arcing characteristics.

 

The reason for the switch on UK sockets was also to do with DC arcs on 200V systems.  There was a preference for switching off the power before removing the plug, to prevent arcing and thus avoid damage to pins / contact surfaces etc. There were even types that had a pin with a groove that was locked in place when the switch was on, and only removable when the power was switched off.

 

But there were umpteen different companies working in competition and harmonised standards only really emerged for all sorts of things in the 1940s. Everything was developed commercially and there were competing designs of plugs, sockets, bulb holders, wiring systems, voltages and frequencies. There's a lot of discussion that seems to talk about 'a European' approach vs 'an American' approach but in reality there were just multiple companies all doing their own thing.

 

The market ultimately needed standards, as otherwise appliances were very very complicated to produce. So, they emerged and were formalised and ultimately legislated for.

 

There's also a discussion that seems to assume Europe moved from 110-120V to 220/230V. That's also not exactly true. 220V 50Hz was always used in some areas, and was introduced in others in the 1940s/50s. So, it very much depends on where you are.

 

The basically reality of it is that 220V (now 230V) 50Hz ultimately won the standards wars in Europe and for the most part so did Schuko plugs/sockets, with a few outliers (including here).

 

Westinghouse first began experimenting with AC power in the US using already developed technology. He imported a number of Gaulard-Gibbs transformers, which had been developed by Lucien Gaulard (France) and John Dixon-Gibbs (England) and a large Siemens AC generator. His AC systems basically sprung from there.

 

The downside to AC in the 50-60Hz range anyway, is the cycling can trigger muscle contractions which can cause your hand to grab a conductor and can cause atrial fibrillation. 

 

DC causes far worse burns and tissue damage though as the current flows through continuously and it can also cause weird effects like electrolysis.

 

Both of them are pretty nasty at high current/voltage, but I wouldn't really give DC Edison's marketing safety approval. 

 

The 230V 50Hz system is pretty rock solid and extremely safe, once you use it with the correct equipment and fixtures and fittings have evolved to become safer and safer over the decades. 


This post was last edited 10/07/2021 at 11:09
Post# 1130733 , Reply# 61   10/8/2021 at 20:59 (923 days old) by cadman (Cedar Falls, IA)        

cadman's profile picture
I've been a long time "electrification" fan, but it wasn't until a book I read recently (Edison & The Electric Chair - Mark Essig) that I learned of the sheer number of people getting electrocuted on the streets and in their own homes during the 1870's and 80's. We forget Edison wasn't the only game in town in the early days, each 'company' putting up their own poles and stringing their own wires wherever they pleased, typically for industrial or arc light use where AC was frequently used, and in either case, high voltage.

There were reports of shopkeepers getting killed when their awning poles would brush against bare wires, reports of "abandoned" circuits that turned out to still be live, rogue power wires dropping or rubbing against phone circuit wiring and electrocuting people in their homes. And then the poor saps working for the myriad phone companies (this was pre-monopoly) and telegraph services, wading through all these lines. It was an epidemic and made electrifying the home a tough sell.

To Edison's credit, he insisted all of his circuits be buried under the streets, which was at his expense. And wire insulation, cable troughs, fusing and protection, underground interconnects to buildings, etc. etc. also had to be developed and tested. No small undertaking! Despite NY passing a law that any future installations had to be buried, few others actually complied, and it wasn't until the blizzard of '88 that things changed. I forget the figure now, but there were hundreds, if not thousands of miles of abandoned wire cut down afterwards.

The other reason that DC was so popular is that electricity was primarily used in industry for mechanical power, and no AC motors existed at the time, only DC. Electroplating was another big business, which also is DC-only. Lighting doesn't care, but then there's no flicker to worry about, especially compared to low frequency generation (Niagara Falls 25Hz, anyone?). So even though AC could be distributed great distances, it was only after Westinghouse offered a motor that AC really became a viable option, and it's why many older large cities continued to offer a DC service up until a few years ago just for elevators and traction motors.

I'd still like to know the logic behind 110V. I've been hit with it enough to know I prefer it to 240V :) , but there was A LOT of investigation put into the effects of voltage levels, types, and current levels all through the 'electric chair' era (not just by Edison) to try to make corporal punishment "more humane". Very much in line with the popularity at the time in the "rise of morality, clean living, progressiveness & purity", etc.

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Post# 1130763 , Reply# 62   10/9/2021 at 16:32 (922 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
USA is largely 110v/120v due to monopolies and business agreements really. There isn't now nor wasn't then any real reason or benefit to remaining with 120v power at 60hz, but as electricity spread across nation that standard was adopted things flowed.

Post WWII much of Europe was in or near ruins. This required not only rebuilding infrastructure but also housing. Decisions were made to go with 208v-240v (or in some cases higher) power at 50hz for domestic purposes as standard. Prior to WWII and maybe for a bit after in come European countries one could find all sorts of appliances that ran on 110v-120v power.

Keep in mind United States blessed with abundant natural resources for fuel (oil and gas) meant many things called upon for say heating use those sources instead of electricity.

Washing machines in North American largely were top loading variety that did not self heat water. They got their hot water from taps feed by (usually) oil or gas fired storage water heaters. Instant water heaters were known in USA going back to early 1900's, but never really took off way electric versions did and have in Europe.

As someone mentioned previously in this thread, watts is watts... Amount of energy required to say raise one gallon of water "X" degrees per hour is constant. 208v-240v power will get you there faster, but overall same amount of energy is used on average.

Post# 1130769 , Reply# 63   10/9/2021 at 18:45 (922 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
watts is watts

 yes, but...

1. Lower voltage means heavier, more expensive cables.
2. Lower voltage means more amps for the same job.
3. Max wattage for a standard US power outlet is 1700 Watts, isn't it?
In Australia it is 2400 watts, in UK and Europe it is 3000 or 3600 watts, isn't it?
That means faster kettles, more effective irons, faster heating washing machines and dishwashers, and so on.

re point 1, in the past I converted a few washing machines to run off 12 volts DC. They worked well but even with special high efficiency motors they needed big fat cables to work. like each wire as fat as a pencil. No self heating, either.

Post# 1130771 , Reply# 64   10/9/2021 at 19:21 (922 days old) by cadman (Cedar Falls, IA)        

cadman's profile picture
Gizmo, to your points, it's a little...tricky.

The copper is more expensive and heavier gauge for 120V, but since our homes have 240V available at the main panel, anything that uses substantial power like a clothes dryer, heat pump, water heater or heavy-duty window AC gets it's own 240V feed. Where we do save copper is with our split-phase system. One need only run 12-3 wire with a hot from each bus bar and share the neutral eliminating the extra conductor.

The "tricky" part is that to keep things simple, most electricians run 14 gauge for lighting (15A) and 12 gauge (20A) for receptacles, so most houses built in the last 40-50 years have 2400W available on a circuit, but 15A receptacles are usually installed as they're cheaper (a box of 10 is roughly $5 USD). The NEC does have a requirement that kitchens, baths and dining rooms have 20A service and I think they require at least one 20A receptacle. That's standard for garages and outdoor recepts as well.

Electric kettles aren't really a thing here, and appliance makers never really took advantage of the 20A branch circuit capability most homes have, save for the very rare Amana Touchmatic III microwave from the early 80s, which nobody has ever heard of.

Outside the home, pretty much anything commercial is always done with 20-amp 5-20R receptacles.

BUT, back before 200A service was the norm, 15A was very common. And if you really wanted to run all of your kitchen smalls at once, a 240V "Kitchen Center" with individual outlets and cords with one feed made more sense.

Post# 1130781 , Reply# 65   10/9/2021 at 21:59 (922 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Hello Gizmo!

 launderess's profile picture

1. Lower voltage means heavier, more expensive cables.

Generally true, but many older and even new construction are over built when it comes to wiring. That is to say heavier cable was used than required. Especially in multi-family where abuse was expected.


2. Lower voltage means more amps for the same job.

Suppose so, but wouldn't much also depend upon what job wanted doing?


3. Max wattage for a standard US power outlet is 1700 Watts, isn't it?

In theory a 120v circuit at 20 amps (standard for refrigerators, air conditioners, and other appliances with heavy power draw), max is 2400 watts. At 10amps max goes down to 1200 watts.

Now NEC does specify that a circuit breaker shouldn't handle more than 80 percent of the load for which it is rated unless the breaker is labeled otherwise. By this standard, the total current draw on a 20-amp circuit shouldn't exceed 16 amps.

To provide a margin of safety, the total draw on the circuit shouldn't exceed 16 amps at any one time, which translates to a maximum power draw of 1,920 watts on a conventional 120-volt circuit. Again breaker won't trip or fuse blow unless or until 2400 watts is reached, and maybe not then if only momentarily.

Case in point, older Miele washing machines that could be wired to run in North American at 110v/120v had two 1500 watt heater legs. When switching between 208v/240v down to 110v/120v merely disconnected one of those heater legs so machine only drew half of total 3000 watts of heating power.

Latest Miele washers such as W1 are 120v only, but heating power is barely about 1000 watts. Yes, they use less water for washing than older washers, but heating tap cold water to hot or boiling is a bit of work. Thankfully thanks to modern technology washers can utilize both hot and cold water connections, thus filling with warm water if necessary to take edge off heating requirements.

You simply cannot have a "cold fill" only front loading washing machine sold in USA running on 120v/20 amp circuit. My AEG washers allow ten minutes or so for heating water from tap cold to set temperature, and they do so without fail for most part.

OTOH my older Miele washer if run at 120v would likely take twenty or more minutes to bring tap cold water to 140F or higher.

It has been required by code here in USA since about 1960's or so that newly built homes or apartment buildings provide at least one 120v/20 amp circuit in kitchen (usually for refrigerator), and another near a window (for air conditioner).

The 20 amp circuit in kitchen serves both fridge and microwave. When both are running together can often tell microwave isn't getting its fair share of juice. Once condenser on fridge kicks off, oven is happy.

Max watts for an AC here you can find to run at 120v/20amp is around 10,000 btu of cooling power. Above that things start going into 220v/240v territory.

None of this touches difference in power demands for resistance loads (such as heating), versus say temporary spike caused by a motor starting.

My older ironer presses are rated 1400 watts. Some vintage rotary ironers were rated almost 1600 watts, again all on 120v power. Miele B990 is only 1500 watts and doesn't go higher than about 320F temperature wise. Far to low for heavy linen or cotton fabrics, especially if they are damp or too much so.



Post# 1130790 , Reply# 66   10/10/2021 at 00:45 (922 days old) by iej (.... )        

There wasn’t really a decision to move Europe to 220-230V after WWII, rather that was already the most dominant standard in Europe before WWII. Some countries, very notably France, used 127V, 3 wire systems. Other countries, like Italy, had 127V for lighting and 220V for power, charged on two different meters. There were also legacy DC systems in some towns and cities, usually predating national grids.

Here in Ireland for example, you could happily go back in time to the 1920s, plug your modern 230V appliance in and it would work. The standard was 220V 50Hz by the mid 1920s. That had begun to emerge as the de facto preferred standard for supply.

After WWII you start to see the emergence of the precursor of the European institutions that eventually became the EU. Many of those were concerned with harmonising and making things easier for commercial activity across the European continent and that would have included founding standards bodies like CENELEC.

If that hadn’t happened you could have had multiple versions of everything from appliances to light bulbs.


Post# 1130872 , Reply# 67   10/10/2021 at 17:49 (921 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
UK / Europe 'Voltage Harmonisation'

 I finally found the letter I received from my local electricity supplier in early 1995. I quote (in part)

" On 1 January 1995 a change was made to the Electricity Supply Regulations "

" For many years your electricity has been supplied within a range based on 240 Volts. In order to harmonise low voltage electricity supplies throughout Europe, from 1 January 1995 the permitted range changed and is now based on a 230 Volt supply. "

" Supply Voltage (and permitted variations) before 1 January 1995 240 Volts (225.6-254.4V) "

" Supply Voltage (and permitted variations) from 1 January 1995 230V (216.2-253.0V) "

Efforts were made (since Voltage regulation was very rarely so wide) to maintain the supply at or near 240V. Even within the last 10 years, my supply has regularly been at around 246V.

I have just measured my supply Voltage. It is stable at 238V, which is quite average nowadays.

Hope this is of some interest in the ongoing discussion!

All best

Dave T

P.S. the 'post pictures' input box shows for only a few seconds at the bottom of the reply form, then disappears! I suspect that this may be a compatability issue for my 'rather elderly' copy of Google Chrome, but it is preventing me from posting pictures of various adaptors... :-(

P.P.S. It disappears whether I try to click in it or not ;-)


Post# 1130881 , Reply# 68   10/10/2021 at 19:44 (921 days old) by iej (.... )        

Mine seems to hover around 225V - 232V, although the original spec here in Ireland was always 220V

What I heard was the firmly stated opinion that it’s just a bureaucratic fudge to harmonise isn’t actually quite true. As transformers are replaced, the target voltage is 230V, so eventually you’ll just see 220 / 240V systems vanish and the tolerances reduced. There was just no obligation to unnecessarily remove old transformers, some may have actually been adjusted though further up the networks, as they have adjustable parameters. Small local transformers are typically completely sealed and zero maintenance.

The spec is based on IEC and CENELEC harmonisation recommendation, not just the EU, but compliance with CENELEC specs is mandatory in the EU, many countries far beyond comply with them anyway as it just doesn’t make any sense to be using oddball standards anymore.


Post# 1130898 , Reply# 69   10/11/2021 at 00:08 (921 days old) by LowEfficiency (Iowa)        

lowefficiency's profile picture

>> The reason for the switch on UK sockets was also to do with DC arcs on 200V systems. There was a
>> preference for switching off the power before removing the plug, to prevent arcing and thus avoid damage
>> to pins / contact surfaces etc.

When we were in New Zealand, all of the receptacles had individual switches on them. Perhaps obvious in hindsight, but quite foreign to us, the logical outcome of this was that individual appliances often didn't have any on/off switches of their own- they simply relied on the receptacle switch to turn the appliance on and off. The only ones which retained them, were items that had specific ergonomic or safety reasons for a switch in another position, or which turned off as a function of another control (timer, etc). Everything else was just always on from the cord's perspective.

So if specifically importing 240V items to use in other countries, it might be wise to provision for this - either by ensuring the receptacles have switches, or that the circuit is separately switched upstream.

Post# 1130907 , Reply# 70   10/11/2021 at 08:14 (920 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
switched outlets

Australia and New Zealand use the same standards.

It is less common now for appliances to have no on switch, except things that run from a transformer/plug pack/wall wart.

 

If someone were importing a gadget from Australia or NZ and wanting to use it on an unswitched outlet, you could also import a switched power board like this one...

www.bunnings.com.au/click...
Post# 1130936 , Reply# 71   10/11/2021 at 15:24 (920 days old) by DaveTranter (Central England)        
Switched socket outlets

 I seem to recall from when I took my IEE Wiring Regulations exam, that the 'switch' on a socket outlet was designed to be just an 'isolator', to make the socket 'dead' when inserting/removing a plug (especially in the days before shrouded pins), and was NOT designed to repeatedly switch load current. I may be mistaken, as my memory is not what it was, but the contact area does seem very small for switching what could be a 10Amp plus inductive load. I do remember the contacts welding on a socket outlet switch at home, after a short circuit on the load, but I don't think that I ever replaced it.... ;-)

All best

Dave T


Post# 1131000 , Reply# 72   10/12/2021 at 06:16 (919 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Switched Socket Outlets

 combo52's profile picture

I think that Dave is correct, these switches were not designed to be the only or main On-Off switch for what was plugged into the outlet.

 

John L.
Post# 1131005 , Reply# 73   10/12/2021 at 08:35 (919 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia)        
not designed to be main on-off switch

maybe not in UK but it has been standard practice in Australia all my life. Plenty of simple heating appliances like non-automatic kettles, irons and  heaters have no switch, you switch them on and off at the wall. (irons have a thermostat but who turns it down to zero before switching off at the wall? - nobody.)
Post# 1131026 , Reply# 74   10/12/2021 at 15:49 (919 days old) by iej (.... )        

There's no requirement for sockets here in Ireland to have switches. They're just an optional extra. They're commonly installed, but they're absolutely not required.

Appliances sold here would be more or less identical to those sold elsewhere in the EU, other than the fitted plug being different and I've certainly encountered heating appliances without switches on the continent. You just unplug them when you're not using them e.g. space heaters etc

Older electric kettles, before they were automatic, were simply unplugged. I'm talking VERY old though they were made before the 1970s.

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