Thread Number: 88125
/ Tag: Air Conditioners
A/C gone bad |
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Post# 1127095   8/28/2021 at 13:56 (943 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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My 17+yo Carrier heat pump has gone kablooey. Service says a couple+ small leaks on the evaporator and the (scroll) compressor isn't pumping properly, probably worn out. It has been horribly noisy for ~14 years but continued to perform OK until now. They added 2 lbs of R22 10 days ago. I (and they) hoped it'd be reasonable for a couple/few months until fall weather but it's doing essentially nothing since yesterday evening so I shut it off. Previous bit of re-up on refrigerant was in 2010 (different servicer). Problem with replacement now is choices are limited. I've always thought 5 tons is a bit oversized for this house (2350 sq ft) ... which premise is kinda supported by a borrowed 6K window unit covering the kitchen, living room, dining, office room, hallway & 1/2 bath area (not the master BR/bath wing or the 2nd full bath and two bedrooms) had attained 76°F in the early morn hrs and is currently managing 77.7°F in early afternoon. The HVAC outfit thinks 5 tons is correct, although there hasn't been further discussion of it. RJ has a spare 18K window unit (Whirlpool, serial May 2004) from one of his rental refurbs that probably will be swapped in later today or tomorrow. He already has a homemade extension to run it off a dryer outlet from use a couple times when his system was down, needs to be extended on length to reach from my dryer outlet to the target living room window (not as far as it sounds). |
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Post# 1127136 , Reply# 1   8/28/2021 at 22:27 (942 days old) by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)   |   | |
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A reputable HVAC company should run a load calculation to determine the correct tonnage if the current size is questionable. This includes many things such as insulation types and values in ceilings and walls and types of doors and windows and the direction they face, etc. Warranties definitely matter these days in the sense that you want to make sure it is from a company that you believe will be there for you through the warranty period. A lot of the lower end units these days have major issues within several years even when installed correctly. I haven’t looked in a long time but consumer reports in the past wouldn’t rate central HVAC systems due to the installation being too high of a variable in the longevity of these systems. I’m sorry you are having to deal with this at this time.
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Post# 1127137 , Reply# 2   8/28/2021 at 22:41 (942 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1127164 , Reply# 4   8/29/2021 at 10:45 (942 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Melvin, yes I'm aware of Manual J. I doubt that any local HVAC services do those. My parents have had two system changes by two different companies, dad never showed to me or mentioned it. I had a new system done at my previous house, no mention of it. Neighbor has had two systems installed on rental refurb houses that didn't originally have anything, two different installers, no mention of Manual J. He had trouble with both of them so I'm aiming to avoid those companies. One of them installed smaller auxiliary heat strips (on a heat pump system) than was stated on the details ... which was not an "ooops, we made a mistake on ordering the strips" or "oops, we pulled the wrong ones from stock" ... they had to redo the wiring for the larger capacity when he caught them on it. There's also an ongoing problem with the condensate drain there, it has leaked through the ceiling twice due to design issues. The company I plan to use, I intend to ask them about Manual J when they present the quotes to see what is their reply. Dan, I don't monitor the humidity level other than an el-cheapo thermometer/barometer/hygrometer in the master bathroom, which is not a good reading for the overall house condition. I've never seen it at or below 50% ... usually mid/upper 50s to 60%. 40% is highly unlikely to happen in this area without considerable effort. My parents have a 2-speed Lennox with humidity control and a fancy thermostat that mystifies and scares them. Dad kept complaining about the 2°F overcooling allowance at which it was configured ... why does it get down to 74°F when set on 76°F? I found on investigation that humidity was set at 45% and that was never attained ... usually between 56% and 52%. I set humidity at 52% and 0°F overcooling. Last time I was there it was reading 58% Jon, the evaporator coil has refrigerant leaks. The entire system is being changed, not just the compressor/condensor. We swapped out the 6K window unit for the 18K window late yesterday afternoon, put the 6K in the larger spare bedroom (master BR windows aren't conducive). I discovered the thermostat on the 18K doesn't work, the compressor never shuts off. Left running all night AND with the central blower on to circulate through the house ... the living room area was 73.6°F this morning, the smaller east-end bedroom (not with the 6K unit) 77°F, and the west-end master bathroom 78°F with the hygrometer reading 56%. |
Post# 1127354 , Reply# 5   8/31/2021 at 11:49 (940 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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HVAC outfit called yesterday. I asked about Manual J, he said they have a guy with a program to do that, can look up the details on "satellite maps." !!?? I told him the sq ftage and the ceiling height varies at 9' and 10', double-pane windows. He said the guy could come onsite if he needs more info. He called again this morning. Said only regular 14 SEER models are immediately available, they're on the waiting list for 2-speeds, could be 2 weeks or 2 months. He mentioned Manual J again. I said that I found an online calculator that asks for bunches of parameters such as insulation values, window sq ft and roof overhang for exposure, exterior wall sq ft for N-S-E-W facing, etc. He said "the program will handle all of that." (uhhh, yeahbut dontcha hafta come over here to get the measurements?) I put the hygrometer in the living room yesterday. It varied between 54% and 58% with the 18K running continuously. I put it in the refrigerator for a couple hrs, reads 34%. |
Post# 1127605 , Reply# 9   9/3/2021 at 00:09 (937 days old) by 2packs4sure (houston)   |   | |
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What kind of motor took four weeks to get? |
Post# 1127609 , Reply# 10   9/3/2021 at 04:06 (937 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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Post# 1127626 , Reply# 11   9/3/2021 at 08:37 (937 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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This morning with the 18K window unit off for 6 hrs, the living room temp is 80°F and the el-cheapo hygrometer reads 60%. Outdoor temp was lower than usual yesterday due to a couple rains but outdoor humidity was quite high. Lowest the living room temp reached was 76.8°F and humidity 54%. The 18K thermostat doesn't work so I manually turn it off if/when the temp reaches below 78°F if I'm paying attention, back on at 79°F-80°F, and now off when I go to bed. Electric bill for August is 2,488 KWH, $283.90 (includes a 1% rate increase as detailed below). That usage is 200-ish KWH higher than the previous year for August (2020 = 2,266, 2019 = 2,318), attributed to the system not functioning very well until it went to failing completely on 8/26 (end of the billing period), which day had the highest daily usage (107 KWH) for the period. I had the temp set at 79°F for the month. There's no way I could afford to maintain 72°F or 68°F or 65°F as some folks do even with an A/C working properly. I had it running until late afternoon on 8/27 when I realized it was failing so shut the central off and installed the 6K window unit in the living room. 8/28 late afternoon swapped the 18K in and moved the 6K to a spare bedroom. Had the central blower running for a few days for whole-house circulation but then turned it off for a couple floor fans aimed from the LR toward the west end and the office room. 8/27 = 104.17 KWH 8/28 = 51.29 KWH 8/29 = 83.5 KWH 8/30 = 85.96 KWH 8/31 = 58.21 KWH (central blower off & 18K off at night) 9/1 = 53.17 KWH 9/2 = 53 KWH August Billing Generation Energy: 2,488 KWH @ 0.04688 = $116.64 GCRF*: 2,488 KWH @ 0.02700 = $67.18 STEC Transmission, Distribution & Ancillary Services Energy: 2,488 KWH @ 0.1633 = $40.63 TDCRF*: 2,488 @ $-0.00700 = $-17.42 Coop Distribution Customer Chg = $19.83 Minimum: 475 KWH @ $0.03855 (1% increase) = $18.31 Over-Minimum 2,013 KWH @ 0.01924 (1% increase) = $38.73 *CRFs are adjustment factors that vary based on costs charged to the Coop (which is a non-profit, member-owned entity) to maintain operating margins. Member capital credits are applied biennially. |
Post# 1127631 , Reply# 12   9/3/2021 at 10:04 (937 days old) by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)   |   | |
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If folks can run a central ac system in Texas below 70 degrees when it is 100 outside then their ac system is oversized. It’s not a huge problem when it’s so hot but during the couple of months when it gets a little cooler here it will not take the humidity out without running below 70 due to the fact if the ac isn’t running enough there is no way to remove humidity. Any progress on the new system?
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Post# 1127659 , Reply# 15   9/3/2021 at 17:06 (937 days old) by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)   |   | |
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The inverter systems have been here for some time now but at close to double the price of a standard system a lot of folks pass on these. There was one that came out in the early 2000’s but due to cost, complexity, and poor quality they didn’t last very long and left a bad taste in mouth of those who sprung for them. Central ac systems are like anything else these days. The lower cost ones are built shoddily and usually the fly by night companies put a lot of them in and then are no where to be found in the short period of time when problems start to occur.
The best advice I can give is to buy from a reputable company who has been around long term and has good reviews or references in the community. Someone you think will be right there when you need them and competent enough to fix issues with ease. I know that’s asking a lot these days. |
Post# 1127674 , Reply# 16   9/3/2021 at 20:22 (936 days old) by 2packs4sure (houston)   |   | |
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The base dual stage systems are fairly reliable but if you want REAL trouble get an inverter system. You may get lucky but they are often a nightmare. |
Post# 1128844 , Reply# 17   9/16/2021 at 16:43 (924 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133092 , Reply# 18   11/9/2021 at 13:07 (870 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133095 , Reply# 19   11/9/2021 at 14:13 (870 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1133101 , Reply# 21   11/9/2021 at 15:22 (870 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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I have two 20" x 25" (grill/filter size) returns. Second quotes. Single-stage 15 SEER Trane (4TWR6060H1, TEM6AOD60H, 81-0703-01), $10,216.73. Two-stage 17 SEER (4TWR7060A1, TEM6AOD60H, 81-0703-01), $11,718.27. Does not state if sales tax is included but I assume not. It is included on the first quotes. |
Post# 1133150 , Reply# 23   11/10/2021 at 02:20 (869 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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Our A/C went out and we decided to replace the entire system because it was 18 years old. The Heat Exchanger and Compressor were replaced around 2014ish from what I could find in the paperwork. The system is Trane with a 16 SEER 4 ton compressor and a two stage furnace. All in it was $7318.20. We put a two stage in the old house and really loved it so we went with the two stage here as well. I don't recall the difference in price.
We had an interesting situation in this house. It's 2400 sq ft. and the family that built this house had a zoned system put in. It didn't make a lot of sense because one zone was most of the house and the other two zones were each of two smaller bedrooms at the other end of the house. That needed to be replaced or removed when we put in the new system. It would have been about $2,000 to replace or $800 to remove. Since it didn't really buy us much in this house we had it removed. We paid the $800 to have them remove the unneeded ductwork in the attic and air balance the system. No regrets. |
Post# 1133228 , Reply# 25   11/11/2021 at 10:15 (868 days old) by WhiteWhiskers (Silicon Valley, California)   |   | |
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I have a Honeywell Zone Control System, three Honeywell Modulating Automatic Round Dampers (MARDs) and a Honeywell Universal mini-zone controller box. It's been problematic since day one. The primary problem are the MARDs. All dampers move to the open position when the system is off. Depending on which zone calls for heating or cooling causes some of the MARDs to close. The dampers are prone to sticking or they leak air. The zone controller developed cold solder joints causing all kinds of erratic behavior. I reflowed several connections years ago and no problems since.
Had the original installer out twice to fix the leaking air problem. The result was the tech fried one of the zones on the controller board. Moved the zone to an unused port but now have no spare. Right now I'm sure all zones blow air even when one of the zones should be closed. I gave up on the system years ago. In theory zone control sounds good, but in practice you will be buying a constant source of problems. |
Post# 1133303 , Reply# 27   11/12/2021 at 06:34 (867 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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We have had zoned systems in the past and have been happy with them but in all those cases it made sense. The man who built this house was a contractor who built this house for he and his wife who had become empty nesters. His daughter said since he was a contractor, he had access to lots of cool upgrades and added the zoned system just because he could. The house is filled with many upgrades that make sense but this one didn’t. It’s 2400 sq. ft. with large rooms except for these two small bedrooms at the opposite end of the house. They zoned the entire house as 1 zone and then each of the two small bedrooms were a separate zone. It worked as designed for a while, but we started having issues with damper motors as it was 18 years old.
If we could have easily made the Master Bedroom and Bathroom a separate zone then we would have replaced the zone system along with the new A/C and furnace. With this setup we could heat/cool just the bedroom at night vs. the entire house, but the way the ductwork was done it would mean ripping out what was done on that end of the house and redoing it.
So, we made the decision to remove the Zoned system altogether and have been happy with it. I think it depends on the brand and how the system is designed. |
Post# 1133305 , Reply# 28   11/12/2021 at 07:08 (867 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Post# 1133314 , Reply# 29   11/12/2021 at 09:13 (867 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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I don't know what a Split System is but here in the South if you have a two story home you really need two separate systems to cool the upstairs. My condo complex when I moved here in 2002 was built in two phases. They were all two story units, bedrooms up. The first Phase was built with 1 system for the entire unit. The second Phase (where I was) was built with two systems one up and one down. The people in the old Phase did nothing but complain about cooling the upstairs. The complex didn't allow for air conditioners in the windows so it was an issue for them.
Since then both houses we've had have been single story, LOL. This post was last edited 11/12/2021 at 12:44 |
Post# 1133362 , Reply# 31   11/12/2021 at 16:30 (867 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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Ten's of thousands for a stinky, noisy, overly complicated and unreliable ducted systems?! I'm literally shocked and appalled what contractors are charging. But with (supposed) labor shortages....maybe they feel they can get away with it.
No way would I when you can get pre-charged mini-splits for under $500. Videos online showing how to install. The onslaught of legit competition is most likely what's pushing the prices for the old fashioned ducted systems. It's just like with the old fashioned auto prices going sky high, now that Tesla and other electric vehicles have arrived. CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK on eBay
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Post# 1133363 , Reply# 32   11/12/2021 at 16:35 (867 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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I wouldn't do zones but each their own.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK on eBay
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Post# 1133431 , Reply# 33   11/13/2021 at 15:31 (866 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Both of the HVAC outfits said they'd do a Manual J. One I asked directly, the other's office girl said without prompting that they'd come onsite and "measure windows & stuff" for the quote. Neither did so. Both are referencing the "rule" of 1 ton per 500 sq ft. Plugging my measurements and parameters best as I can determine them into the online load calculator at www.loadcalc.net... using its default design temps for this area of 94°F/75°F/50% and 33°F/70°F says 21,831 BTU (1.8 tons) cool and 38,895 BTU (3.2 tons) heat. I run 78°F to 79°F during heat of the summer, never 75°F. A bit cooler for humidity control during fall & spring when needed but rarely even to 74°F. Changing to 102°F/77°F/50% and 30°F/68°F gives 25,705 (2.1 tons) and 39,946 (3.3 tons). I had a follow-up call yesterday with the Trane outfit to ask some questions, including for a 1-speed 4 ton quote. Guy said reducing to 4 tons wouldn't be a good idea. Figure how he's likely to respond if I tell him the online Manual J says 2 tons cooling is sufficient (although it does say 3.5 tons for heating without auxiliary). |
Post# 1133444 , Reply# 34   11/13/2021 at 17:17 (866 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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I had to have a heat Calc. done on the last house I built. These days most building permits require them as part of the permitting process. It's really a good idea since there are many variables that affect equipment sizing and options. CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK
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Post# 1133472 , Reply# 35   11/13/2021 at 20:26 (865 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Is anyone in the northern hemisphere still runnning their air conditioning system in November?
Note: the only AC system I have is a small ~5000 btu window unit that I took out of the house about 10 years ago, and a somewhat larger (~10000 BTU) roll around unit that I can roll up to a window (usually in the combined family room/kitchen area) that I didn't have to roll up to a window and run at all this past summer. Gotta love the SF Bay Area. Oh, and the forced air gas fired heating system didn't start coming on until November here. And then for only a few minutes in the evenings. Although I expect more heating will be needed in the coming weeks/months. |
Post# 1133473 , Reply# 36   11/13/2021 at 20:45 (865 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133478 , Reply# 37   11/13/2021 at 21:29 (865 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1133494 , Reply# 38   11/14/2021 at 08:28 (865 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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We were still cooling until last week...ish. We are now in the 60s but back to mid 70s this week so I expect we will be cooling again.
We see a lot of units like those split units here in older homes (we are estate sale freaks so go into a lot of houses) that never had central air. We also seem to see a fair amount of them in two story homes where they had one unit for the entire house but then added some of these to have effective A/C upstairs. My guess is it would be cheaper to put these upstairs than it would be to convert ductwork from a single unit to multiple units. Any of the experts know if that's a true statement? I am only guessing based on what we see.
Most newer homes built here that require multiple units seem to have the traditional central air units. Maybe these split units are cheaper to put in, I really don't know. We were in a house a couple of weeks that was a really cool MCM house. They had units like this with louvers that rotated back and forth I guess to distribute the air better. |
Post# 1133502 , Reply# 40   11/14/2021 at 10:37 (865 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1133505 , Reply# 41   11/14/2021 at 10:55 (865 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133713 , Reply# 44   11/16/2021 at 16:49 (863 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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A Mini can go just about ANYWHERE. All that is needed is a 3" to 4" hole through an outside wall.
No ductwork, no window, no basement, no attic necessary. If you have ductwork or radiator pipes you can just abandon them. Lots of chimneys and fireplaces have been abandoned over the years.
I would not ever do a duct system again because: 1.) they need to be woven through a house and often require a lot of cutting 2.) unless you have zoning there is limited control of temperature in each room 3.) noise follows the ducting thru-out the home 4.) dirt and mold growth inside that you can't reach to clean 5.) not efficient compared to mini
This guy even installed it in his RV. It's way better than those noisy roof top things.
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Post# 1133714 , Reply# 45   11/16/2021 at 16:57 (863 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133725 , Reply# 46   11/16/2021 at 20:05 (862 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133945 , Reply# 47   11/19/2021 at 13:48 (860 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133986 , Reply# 49   11/19/2021 at 18:58 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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I would never use a heat pump because of the noise issue. Even though a mini is far quieter than an outdated central air unit, it still makes noise. There is nothing that makes a chilly Fall or Winter day or night colder than having a stupid fan running.... or any avoidable mind numbing noise.
Baseboard heaters are simple, affordable, zone-able, 100% efficient, and of course (nearly) silent. When the technology comes out for silent Air conditioning, it will no doubt be my new favorite. Perhaps a large version of a thermo-electric refrigerator. Also, like central air units, mini-splits THAT HAVE the heat pump option, are more complicated as they have a reversing compressor and other tech. When doing a search for a mini always specify COLD ONLY and the voltage desired as most minis are made as heat pumps and to operate at 220v.
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Post# 1133988 , Reply# 50   11/19/2021 at 19:02 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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I don't know that you could use a heat pump of any kind exclusively because you're too far north in New Jersey (Nuu-Joy-zee).
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The big thing many people overlook when it comes to making our homes comfortable is proper insulation. The more the better. Aim for at least an R-60 in the attic and R-30 in the walls and floors. It's so obvious. Forget about the minimums set by zoning. And it benefits us regardless of the season. It doesn't make noise, doesn't require service, and there's no monthly service costs for insulation. lol
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Post# 1133989 , Reply# 51   11/19/2021 at 19:03 (859 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1133991 , Reply# 52   11/19/2021 at 19:16 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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You'll have to be more specific Bob. Are you suggesting baseboard heaters don't work in Rochester NY?
They work anywhere as long as there is electric, they're wired correctly, and the circuits on. lol
About the only thing that can break is the thermostat. I've seen that and easily fixed it.
Take your choice of thermostat from basic for $11 to a snazzy smart thermostat for a couple hundred.
Better than trying to figure out a gas furnace with all it's sensors and inefficiencies, and the possibility of a cracked exchanger. Or starting a wood burning fire and that awful smell , no control of temp, and the filthy wood and dust. Don't get me started on disgusting oil furnaces.....
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Post# 1133992 , Reply# 53   11/19/2021 at 19:22 (859 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133995 , Reply# 54   11/19/2021 at 19:43 (859 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1133997 , Reply# 55   11/19/2021 at 19:52 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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"...I need a some ambient noise to sleep." Oh wow, you ACTUALLY want noise. Each to their own I guess.
"heating mode is no more noisy than cooling mode" Yes, that's another reason I don't do heat pumps.
It can never be quiet enough by my standards.
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You know you can turn on a video, maybe ASMR, or a rain video, birds chirping, thunder storms, that kind of thing. Sometimes I need to have quiet drama or comedy playing when go to bed but it has to be sound level balanced, so I guess I understand what your referring to. But I would not want a fan running or anything like that.
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Post# 1133998 , Reply# 56   11/19/2021 at 20:00 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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Post# 1133999 , Reply# 57   11/19/2021 at 20:02 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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Post# 1134000 , Reply# 58   11/19/2021 at 20:06 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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Post# 1134003 , Reply# 59   11/19/2021 at 20:26 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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"the heat was dry, uncomfrtable."
I've heard other people describe it as so. You're right, it depends on what one is used to.
The house I grew up in was a 1960 built tract ranch house with oil forced air. It has a certain smell when running as there must be particles of oil mist that get into the air and the inside of the pipes. When the furnace was changed to gas around 1976 it smelled different but still that smell....has a quaint memory with it even though I would never live with oil or gas heat again. I've gone in other houses where the smell was present and it brought back memories.
Depending on which side of the dry-line you live on in TX perhaps you are more used to a humid environment.
In a cold climate like the upper midwest or the north east you have to add humidification to stay healthy because no matter what type heat you have, it gets dangerously dry. That is the suffocation feeling you are most likely referring to. If you were staying temporarily in a hotel, its' doubtful they had humidification in the rooms.
If you run a furnace to 75 degrees there and never add a humidifier, don't have any house plants, add little water vapor from any other source like an aquarium, taking showers, a lot of cooking, and having several people in the home, it would get very dry. We're talking single digits percentage. It would cause the wood trim around the windows to shrink and crack. Other furniture would get damaged as well. And yes it would be difficult to breath, you'd be more susceptible to infections and dry skin.
Where I live now, it's always humid, some time too humid, but I'd rather deal with that. |
Post# 1134021 , Reply# 61   11/20/2021 at 04:53 (859 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)   |   | |
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I like it quiet and my husband likes some noise. We tried the thunderstorm sounds on Alexa and it drove me crazy because if I was awake it would play the same ones over and over. We have a ceiling fan but its quiet and to get it to make any noise it has to be on pretty high and I don't like that blowing on me at night. Our HVAC is so quiet you don't hear it running so we bought one of those small Oreck air purifier thingies and that's enough for him. We run it on medium instead of silent. It took me a couple of nights to get used to the sound but now I don't even hear it anymore and we get clean air. LOL. Two birds, one stone. |
Post# 1134027 , Reply# 62   11/20/2021 at 07:28 (859 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))   |   | |
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Heat pumps are not more noisy than a furnace in regards to your actual noise in you home. Any resistive heat has a COP of 1, even the worst heat pump has a COP of 2.5. We get you don't like it. Stop being so aggressive about it. And don't twist the facts. |
Post# 1134029 , Reply# 63   11/20/2021 at 07:45 (859 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)   |   | |
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Right now it's 30F outside. My all electric heat pump is set at 64F... I know it has to be very inefficient when we have super cold weather because the heat strips kick in a lot.
My friend across town that I used to work with keeps her AC at 78 in the summer. I was at her house visiting one hot day, I was miserable...the maximum I can go on my AC is 73F in the summer during the day - but at night bump it down to 70F I dread when the day comes having to deal with getting a new system because there's so many factors to deal with. |
Post# 1134032 , Reply# 64   11/20/2021 at 09:01 (859 days old) by kenwashesmonday (Carlstadt, NJ)   |   | |
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Electric resistance heat is prohibitively expensive if you live where it gets cold.
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Post# 1134046 , Reply# 65   11/20/2021 at 13:17 (859 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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He isn't mistaken when stating that a heat pump makes more noise. It's not a lot of noise, but they do make more noise and they also make some other weird clicking noises that it doesn't make when cooling.
I had a house with a heat pump and the heat it made wasn't a warm or hot heat thus it took longer to heat the home. That system was ripped out and I put in a gas furnace. That was 2002. |
Post# 1134099 , Reply# 67   11/20/2021 at 21:31 (858 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1134389 , Reply# 70   11/24/2021 at 09:10 (855 days old) by jamiel (Detroit, Michigan and Palm Springs, CA)   |   | |
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Exactly right about hydronic...I had a tract ranch house in suburban Chicago which was built with gas forced hot air, and the first owner in roughly 1962 ripped it out and put in gas baseboard hydronic...chef's kiss. Was a wonderful system. The utility closet was in the bathroom (louvered doors got rid of all bathroom odors--woot) and except for the woosh at the ignition of the burner on the boiler the circulating pump was so low-toned that you were entirely unaware the heat was on...it was entirely inaudible. Big contrast from the wooshing of the forced air furnaces in the middle of the house.
Air-conditioning was provided by a 220v window unit in the living room--as long as you ran that during the summer as a central a/c unit (i.e. cycling continuously) the house was plenty cool (with perhaps a box fan at the end of the hall pulling the cool air into the ends of the bedrooms). |
Post# 1134416 , Reply# 71   11/24/2021 at 16:12 (855 days old) by petek (Ontari ari ari O )   |   | |
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Our 1958 built house is still using its original gas boiler with baseboard radiators. I really like it over forced air because the heat is even and it's fairly quiet although not as quiet as before I had the pump replaced two years ago. I keep meaning to go down there and jiggle around with it because the noise itself isn't the pump, it's harmonics on the water pipes. There's not a lot of maintenance other than adding some water very occasionally and then maybe having to bleed some air out of couple of the radiators every year or two.. I just did one in the small upstairs bathroom yesterday. Takes only a couple of minutes. We keep the house at about 72-73 all winter and I've compared our gas bill with a few of my neighbors who have gas forced air, and surprisingly our gas bill is less than theirs, our house is slightly bigger too with a heated two car garage.
The only thing I don't like about hydronic heating is not having central air and relying on the mini split. My new mini split from last year is also a heat pump though I've only tried it to see if it works and it does. It's sort of like an emergency backup I guess in case something went wrong with the boiler we'd have a little bit of heat. |
Post# 1137847 , Reply# 73   12/30/2021 at 09:02 (819 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1137855 , Reply# 74   12/30/2021 at 11:44 (819 days old) by appnut (TX)   |   | |
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Post# 1137932 , Reply# 75   12/31/2021 at 01:19 (818 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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Post# 1138446 , Reply# 76   1/4/2022 at 20:37 (813 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Done in 4 hrs, 9a to 1p. 1 - 5 = old. 6 - 14 = new. 11 & 12 east --> west view from stairs side. 13 west --> east view from other side (must climb over). They forgot to bring the 4" filter module that wasn't on the quote but I requested and he agreed to include. To be added in a few days. That's all I have. No pics of the heat strips before installation. Best I could get out of the local contractors, who insist that the replacement match the original 5 tons, which may be reasonable on point of the ductwork being designed for it, is a 2-stage which will run at 70% capacity (3.5 tons) on low. |
Post# 1138447 , Reply# 77   1/4/2022 at 21:28 (813 days old) by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)   |   | |
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Post# 1138542 , Reply# 78   1/5/2022 at 19:01 (812 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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Me, too. Tom |
Post# 1138554 , Reply# 79   1/5/2022 at 21:43 (812 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Looks Good,
Question Glenn how is an A coil mounted in a horizontal air handler, I have always seen A coils in up-flow or down-flow air handlers.
It also looks like you might want to put more insulation in the attic and maybe even some on the plenum attached to the air-handler. I think that almost everywhere you should have at least R30 in attics.
John L. |
Post# 1139766 , Reply# 80   1/18/2022 at 19:09 (799 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1141105 , Reply# 81   2/3/2022 at 16:48 (784 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Current outdoor is 32°F to 35°F depending on the reference. Misty rain. Setpoint 68°F maintaining on low stage. Cycling earlier in the day, increasing to continuously running now for probably more than 2 hrs. Thermostat configured at "comfort" to hold temp within 1°F of the setpoint using low & high compressor stages per algorithms that monitor the indoor temp curve. It has not yet engaged high stage AFAIK for any heating since the 1/4/22 install date. Be interesting to see if it'll upstage soon. Auxiliary staging choices of A) "comfort" on aformentioned algorithms B) specific °F setpoint droop in 0.5°F steps C) specific upstage run-time (30, 45, 60, 75, 90 mins -- 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 hrs) D) combination of B and C. Currently set at 3°F droop, which will present obvious indication when it's needed, and whether adjustment of the setting is needed. Predicted low of 24°F tomorrow morn. |
Post# 1141108 , Reply# 82   2/3/2022 at 17:05 (784 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1141110 , Reply# 83   2/3/2022 at 17:15 (784 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1145239 , Reply# 84   3/26/2022 at 18:02 (733 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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I removed the service panel on the compressor unit several days ago for a look-see at what components are in there. Found the tech sheets, scanned them to .pdfs for future reference, put them back into the storage envelope. I noticed the red light on the EEV (electronic expansion valve) board flashing a sequence, so looked for the code on the tech sheet. Code 7 -- Valve is responding but system is not performing properly (Low charge or restriction). Codes 1 to 5 reset on a power cycle. Codes 7 to 10 require a specific reset sequence so may be flashing history instead of an active code. I thought maybe the code triggered during installation on the initial run while they got the refrigerant charge settled so I enacted the reset procedure, it stopped flashing. Checked again a few days later after the system had run a few cycles, Code 7 is flashing again. Should I bring it to the contractor's attention (without mentioning that I had done the reset)? A homeowner isn't supposed to be poking into the mechanism and I'm leery of presenting as a "problem customer" two months into the installation ... but it needs to be checked if there is a problem. |
Post# 1145243 , Reply# 85   3/26/2022 at 18:42 (733 days old) by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)   |   | |
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Post# 1145244 , Reply# 86   3/26/2022 at 18:52 (733 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Glenn, I would definitely call the company that installed the system, this is your system you’re allowed to take it apart examine it all you like the only way they can void warranties is if you actually caused some damage.
Just explain that you were inspecting your nice new system when you opened up the panel you saw the flashing red light you looked it up and found that it may be a restriction or low charge and ask that have them check it out.
John L |
Post# 1145924 , Reply# 87   4/6/2022 at 12:57 (722 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Follow-up: There was a "tiny" leak at one of the refrigerant charging ports. Enough had leaked out to trigger the fault. Fortunate that I looked there and caught the code. I am expecting it to run for long periods on low speed as summer weather progresses so wouldn't have noticed a performance impact until it couldn't keep up on high speed, or safety sensors shut it down completely. |
Post# 1145927 , Reply# 88   4/6/2022 at 13:44 (722 days old) by Repairguy (Danbury, Texas)   |   | |
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Post# 1150943 , Reply# 89   6/12/2022 at 16:27 (655 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1153363 , Reply# 90   7/4/2022 at 19:38 (633 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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The F7 fault has not recurred since resetting it on 6/12. I have not seen the system run on high stage for cooling during normal cycling operation in the frequent 95°F to 99°F weather that has occurred. It has run briefly on high if the setpoint is manually reduced by 1°F or more. My June 2022 electric bill is $179.24 for 1,511 kWh. June 2021 was $227.38 for 1,954 kWh. |
Post# 1153417 , Reply# 91   7/5/2022 at 10:52 (632 days old) by supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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Post# 1153422 , Reply# 92   7/5/2022 at 11:49 (632 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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1) The indoor blower runs faster on high stage. 2) The thermostat has an Equipment Status function which details System: Off, Auto, Cool, Heat, Em Heat Heat Pump Stage 1 (Heat): Off, On Heat Pump Stage 2 (Heat): Off, On Aux Heat Stage 1: Off, On Heat Pump Stage 1 (Cool): Off, On Heat Pump Stage 2 (Cool): Off, On Fan: Idle, On |
Post# 1153454 , Reply# 93   7/5/2022 at 19:07 (632 days old) by supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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Post# 1153459 , Reply# 94   7/5/2022 at 20:21 (631 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Post# 1153486 , Reply# 95   7/6/2022 at 09:07 (631 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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I'm afraid so. I've double checked serial numbers: American Standard 4A7A7036A1000 is a two-stage AC. I feel like a chump now. CLICK HERE TO GO TO Supersuds's LINK |
Post# 1153491 , Reply# 96   7/6/2022 at 11:01 (631 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Staging without a proper thermostat is by the air handler's control board based on run-time ... the 2nd stage triggers after the 1st stage has run x-minutes, whether or not it's really needed. Perhaps call the installer to change the thermostat to a proper one?. My thermostat is a Honeywell TH8321WF1001. It has choices (separate for cool and heat) for 2nd stage switching differential of "comfort" (controlled by thermostat algorithms presumably monitoring both time and temp swing) or by specific temperature swing of 1°F to 3.5°F from the setpoint in 0.5°F increments. Also separate for auxiliary heat droop, comfort, or 2°F to 15°F in 0.5°F increments ... OR time-based of 30, 45, 60, 75, 90 mins, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16 hrs AFTER 2nd-stage compressor. |
Post# 1153560 , Reply# 98   7/6/2022 at 22:46 (630 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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Post# 1153561 , Reply# 99   7/6/2022 at 22:49 (630 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Post# 1153583 , Reply# 100   7/7/2022 at 08:17 (630 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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... but am struggling to figure out how this could have been an innocent mistake.What's stated in your equipment quote? Was there any direct discussion of a two-stage thermostat? Any discussion or mention by either you or the installer of keeping the original thermostat? A single-stage thermostat sometimes is used with a two-stage system for "reasons" ... such as keeping the job to a price-point or avoiding the need to run additional thermostat wiring if that presents some challenge. The system will work although not to the best design-performance. The T4 line does have a model that's 1C-2H for one-stage/speed heat pumps with one-stage of auxiliary/backup heat, but your stated compressor model 4A7A7036A1000 is a cool-only unit ... maybe the dealer's installer team overlooked that? Do you have gas for heating? |
Post# 1153643 , Reply# 101   7/8/2022 at 03:25 (629 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )   |   | |
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John , I would call them out as soon as possible. I would be kinda pissed if in your contract that you paid for , it says American standard Model # , Furnace , with T-stat . My contract said the model number of each item ,T-stat also both of them. I have Two 2 stage American Standard heat pumps upstairs and downstairs , they run all the time on low one is a twin compressor and the other is a two stage scroll . If its a reputable company they should fix it no problems. I had a 10 year parts and labor warranty with mine when it was installed in 2007/08 . Don't pay a dime don't let them try to charge you for the service call to come out and fix there mistake and sometimes they would try to charge me. Hoping I would be stupid enough to pay them.
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Post# 1153669 , Reply# 102   7/8/2022 at 09:51 (629 days old) by supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)   |   | |
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Hi Glenn, yes, I have a two-stage modulating gas furnace also. There was no discussion of keeping the old thermostat since it was an old round Honeywell with a mercury switch and obviously unsuitable.
Thanks for the advice, Wes. I talked to the owner's son who seemed surprised that I had a problem and insisted that the unit(s) would work just fine in both stages with the existing thermostat, but he said he'd investigate and get back to me. He seems to think I would need a VERY smart thermostat like an Ecobee or Nest, which I'm not thrilled about based on what I've read. I don't think I need an adaptive thermostat, and I don't want everything being reported back to Google, anyway. We'll see. |
Post# 1153675 , Reply# 103   7/8/2022 at 11:29 (629 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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There surely are other workable thermostats than Nest and Ecobee. They're trying to upsell you, or they don't know what all is on the market, OR they may be tied to only what a particular supplier carries. The model I have should work nicely, I don't know the cost of it (search it at online sources), the bill didn't itemize individual component prices. It has WiFi but connection is *not* required for it to work properly, nor is an outdoor temp sensor (which I don't have). It does pick up an outdoor temp via WiFi (based on an unstated reference per the ZIP code if that info is entered) but again, it *does not* require an outdoor temp reference for staging control. The glitch may be if your system is a high-tech communicating control system that requires specific thermostats to interface properly, but that seems unlikely. |
Post# 1153677 , Reply# 104   7/8/2022 at 12:23 (629 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)   |   | |
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My Honeywell has dual stage capability, no need for a Nest or such. Depending on your provider my Utility company is often offering free t'stats if they are programmable - no need to program them. |
Post# 1153690 , Reply# 105   7/8/2022 at 15:30 (629 days old) by WhiteWhiskers (Silicon Valley, California)   |   | |
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I have an Emerson 1F95-1277 that's been great. It's called "Big Blue Universal 3/2". It can work with many different HVAC configurations. It has 27 different settings, you go thru it all in the installer/config menu. It has a nice blue display, very easy to read, no WiFi or other nonsense. You can even program in reminders to change air filters. I set up programs for the winter, but in the summer I prefer to use it manually, adjusting temp settings for how I want the house cooled.
It's somewhat pricey, around $180. Just my review and recommendation. CLICK HERE TO GO TO WhiteWhiskers's LINK
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Post# 1154101 , Reply# 106   7/12/2022 at 11:16 (625 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains )   |   | |
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He is lying John , I am sorry to say any two stage American Standard Air/ heat pump will need the two stage T-Stat. That switch uncovers the ports in the scroll which makes it run at 67% and then reduces the air flow . The let me talk to Dad is basically let me blow you off or screw you talk . Not even a hug after. I would call and keep calling and then I would drive up there and demand it. Those T-stats are not cheap , I have never seen a contractor change out a system and not put in there own unless it was requested. I would drive them NUTS ... The Air will work but what was the point with installing a dual stage if you cant use it. It's like buying a car and they did not give you the keys . |
Post# 1158355 , Reply# 107   8/31/2022 at 22:02 (574 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Electric usage for Aug 2021 when the old system went kablooey was 2,488 kWh. Aug 2022 is 1,381 kWh. The setpoint has been a raised a bit for several couple-days periods when I've been out-of-the-house for attending dad's extended hospital stay, but the higher setpoint is what I'd been running as normal a year ago so the effect isn't much. Electric rate is up a bit from last year but the bill is still $100.76 less than Aug 2021 and there's a (biennial) capital credit refund applied atop that. Yay! |
Post# 1167263 , Reply# 108   12/22/2022 at 21:48 (461 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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Latest arctic blast. Outdoor temp is currently 25°F, predicted low of 20°F or 19°F. The Trane XR17 heat pump is maintaining the indoor setpoint of 69°F, cycling between low & high stage without triggering the auxiliary. Wall thermometer in a bedroom reads 69.7°F. I have the thermostat programmed for a 3°F droop on auxiliary to provide an obvious indication if it's needed. Stage 2 is set for "comfort" vs. a °F-droop or time-period. And "finish on high stage" = no, which means it'll drop back to low stage when the room temp is within the "comfort" algorithm's satisfaction (instead of staying on high stage to attain the setpoint and shutting off), which makes for a more steady room temp curve. Also, one of the auxiliary breakers (purposely) is turned off. |
Post# 1167267 , Reply# 109   12/22/2022 at 22:29 (461 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)   |   | |
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YAY! Now all you have to do is maintain electrical service. Merry Christmas. Tom |
Post# 1167278 , Reply# 110   12/23/2022 at 05:47 (461 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)   |   | |
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