Thread Number: 88382  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Miele W1 WXR 860 WCS Frustrations 		[Down to Last]

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Post# 1129422   9/23/2021 at 14:51 (1,086 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

I recently purchased a new Miele WXR 860 WCS as an upgrade from another Miele, the WWB 020 WCS. I liked the WWB 020 WCS's wash performance so much that I decided that I wanted the newest top-of-the-line machine. The WXR 860 WCS’s M Touch color display and promise of customizability were especially appealing, particularly as the WWB 020 WCS's primary downside was limited cycle options . However, I have sadly been disappointed in a number of areas with this new machine, nearly all of which seem to be related to software design.

1. The Miele app is almost completely useless. It doesn’t correctly show what phase of the cycle the machine is in, you can’t see percentage levels of TwinDos, and it frequently refuses to connect to the machine. You also can’t delete the “Demo” machine.

2. Some options, specifically Water Plus, are only selectable from the app. This makes no sense given that the machine has a full color touch display. I would very much like to use this setting from time to time but with the app being near useless it is impractical.

3. The machine displays frequent messages which are slow to close and cannot be turned off. For example whenever the Prewash option is selected a message very slowly scrolls down from the top of the screen instructing to put 1/3 of the detergent in the prewash compartment and 2/3 in the main wash compartment. I wash with prewash often and it is very annoying to have to wait to dismiss this slow notification each time I run the cycle, even if the prewash was saved in a Favorites program. The same issue is present for Stains options. Selecting most Stains options results in a “Tip” slowly scrolling from the top of the screen and you have to wait until it has scrolled all the way down to dismiss it. The cumulative effect of these notifications borders on absurd. For example, when I’m washing a particularly heavily soiled load and select Prewash, Grease Stains, and Sand/Soil I have to dismiss at least 3 messages just to run the program. There are other annoying messages as well, especially for Softsteam and Singlewash options. Perhaps the worst of all is that if Remote Control is enabled then EVERY time a program is started, even from the machine’s display, a message appears that “Machine can be remotely controlled” which again must be dismissed. This is so annoying that I have completely disabled the remote control feature which not only removes that functionality but prevents me from accessing Water Plus. The ability to completely disable all of these messages or at least to be able to dismiss them much more quickly (no scrolling animation) would make using the machine far more pleasant.

4. Unless TwinDos is used for a cycle Light, Normal, and Heavy soiling cannot be selected. This is not at all clear in the manual and is detrimental to being able to configure the machine for proper washing. While I often use TwinDos I also have need for specialty detergents, especially for very delicate items and for very heavily soiled work clothes with machine grease on them. TwinDos is not suitable for either purpose but I cannot select soiling level with manual dosing. This is especially problematic for the heavily soiled items where I cannot choose the Heavy Soil option while using the necessary speciality grease-cutting detergent. This issue is compounded by the choice to not allow refillable TwinDos containers and programmable detergent options in the US market which is very consumer-unfriendly.

5. Actual EcoFeedBack is not available. Page 17 of the manual states "You can view the actual amount of energy and water used by a program both during and at the end of the program… You can view the consumption data for the last wash program and for total consumption (see “Settings – Consumption”).” This is not actually possible and the machine only displays an estimate before the program starts.

6. The manual states that AllergyWash is available to select with the Normal cycle, however this is not possible on the machine.

7. The machine is excessively sensitive to imbalance. The machine is perfectly leveled and often spins without vibration. However, it seems to be programmed to be so sensitive to imbalance that most programs are extended by 10-20 minutes while the machine attempts to rebalance. This was never a problem with the WWB 020 WCS washing identical loads.

8. QuickIntenseWash takes much longer than advertised and usually does not conduct the final spin. I believe that this is related to the former issue. QuickIntenseWash usually takes 10-20 minutes longer than advertised and then finishes with completely saturated laundry that has not been spun at all.

9. The drum light will not function during a program. It is disappointing that the drum light cannot be manually activated during a program when it is desired to observe the washing progress.

10. Almost all cycles take longer by default than on the WWB 020 WCS. Normal, Dress Shirts, and Dark Garments now take extended periods of time by default. These seem excessive, I've watched the entire Dress Shirts cycle and its approximately 1 hour length and level of agitation are simply unnecessary for my lightly soiled shirts even with the Gentle option enabled.

11. It is disappointing that only 12 custom programs can be saved. 16 or so would actually cover all my bases but this is a minor frustration compared to the others.

With respect to the balance issues, I do see that there are options in the Programming Mode related to the Imbalance Sensor. The options are:

  • Tacho
  • Tacho + EZU
  • Tach + Imbal. sensor

I have not changed it from the default "Tacho + EZU" yet and I'm hoping that some forum members can shed light on what the other options mean and if they might be useful in forcing the machine to operate in a timely manner.

Does anybody else share any of my frustrations with this machine? Any tips or workarounds would be wonderful to hear.

I'm very seriously contemplating returning this machine and upgrading to a Little Giant which I understand has much faster cycle times and the ability to program completely custom cycles out of different option blocks. Its 240V electrical requirement is the main impediment to this but I'm not sure I can stick it out with the WXR 860 and all of its frustrations.



Post# 1129462 , Reply# 1   9/23/2021 at 22:27 (1,086 days old) by moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

I own the WWH860, previous model, but here are a few comments:

1. The 4.0 version of the app is very poor. The previous 3.8 version was better and more usable. Hopefully Miele gets this fixed. If you have an android phone you should be able to find an apk via google to install the previous 3.8 version that is much more functional. IOS users are out of luck due to no sideloading allowed on non-jailbroken phones.

2. Water Plus can be enabled for all programs in settings/service menus.

4. Heavy and Light are there for TwinDOS only and it makes sense. This regulates how much detergent is dispensed from the TwinDOS bottles. When manually dispensing the detergent via the drawer the Heavy and Light TwinDOS settings would not do anything.

6. AllergyWash is a Euro way of saying extra rinse. It is there under extras.

9. The drum light has never been something that could be turned on or off manually. This is nothing new. I understand it would be nice to have, but I can't see faulting the unit for not having the option.

10. Dress shirts is almost an hour on my WWH860 as well. If you add extra rinses, etc. by default then the cycles get longer. I usually use Dress Shirts with the Single Item Wash option. This usually makes it about 38 minutes. I don't think I would want a cycle any shorter than that.

11. I have zero custom cycles. So I don't really feel your pain. lol.





Post# 1129463 , Reply# 2   9/23/2021 at 23:33 (1,086 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

I appreciate your response moon1234.

1. I very much hope they do fix it! It’s be cool if it worked.

2. I did find this in the programming menu. I haven’t expinented to see if it actually affects all cycle or if it just adjusts the extra level when it’s enabled in a Mobilestart cycle. Anyway, I still find it frustrating that it can’t be easily selected for a given cycle. It’s not needed all of the time.

4, Perhaps your machine is different but heavy and light definitely do more on the WXR 860 and my old WWB 020 than just dosing levels. The cycle time and water consumption are changed as well.

6. I figured out that on the WXR 860 AllergyWash does add another rinse. However it also lengthens the wash time somewhat as well. This is a minor concern compared to the others however.

9. I agree with you, this is hardly a fault. It’d just be really neat for laundry enthusiasts to be able to use the hardware, especially since the WXR has a touchscreen button for the light that’s just disabled during the cycle.

10. This answer is very interesting to hear. My WBB 020 is of the same generation as your machine, but the entry level as opposed to top model. I’m learning that the WWB 020 differed quite a lot from its stablemates. It was, for instance, the only machine with a 1400 rpm spin as opposed to 1600 rpm. And the cycle programming seems to have been quite different as well. On the WBB 020 it did dress shirts with three rinses in 0:43 and it was a phenomenal cycle for quickly washing lightly soiled and delicate laundry. I never had any problems with it not cleaning throughly enough. The cycle time on our 860 machines is about what it would have been on my WWB 020 with heavy soil selected. I wonder why Miele programmed them so differently.

Post# 1129466 , Reply# 3   9/24/2021 at 02:18 (1,086 days old) by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
Drum lighy

 Hi. According to the manual you should be able to turn on the drum light on the WXR860.


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Post# 1129470 , Reply# 4   9/24/2021 at 04:32 (1,085 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        
Just some quick guesses

 logixx's profile picture
In Europe, the Shirts cycle includes steaming by default - maybe your other Miele didn't default to steaming? Same should be true for the Allergy option, which has a steam phase after the main wash (again, in Europe). Just some quick thoughts.

I also wonder what would happen if the machine is set to a different country. Will it still lock the user out of some settings?

Post# 1129498 , Reply# 5   9/24/2021 at 12:27 (1,085 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Stephen, the manual does indeed make it sound as though you can activate the light at any time. Unfortunately this is only possible when a cycle is NOT running. During the cycle you can swipe down to access the menu and see the light sensor button but touching it does not do anything.

Logixx, The WXR 860 does indeed default to Softsteam in the dress shirts cycle. However, the cycle time I quoted is with Softsteam deactivated, with the default Softsteam option it takes about 1:40.

You can change the language of the machine both in Settings and in Programming Mode. However, there doesn't seem to be an option for region beyond that. I have tried changed the language and it doesn't seem to change any cycle parameters.

Post# 1129508 , Reply# 6   9/24/2021 at 16:38 (1,085 days old) by stevefromsydney (London)        

Hi Hippo,

After recently acquiring a WWR860. I also share the same frustrations. My business partner purchased the machine. 6 months later bought a property with integrated appliances so I took it off her hands.

For the last 3 years I've had an AEG TOL 9000 series with touchscreen and absolutely love it. This was a great opportunity to try a nearly top of the line Miele machine at hardly any cost.

I've used it daily for the last three months and cannot wait to have the spare time to re-plumb the AEG in.

It's clearly built very well altho the soap dispenser feels very cheap. I like the M-touch control. Very easy to use and flick through various programmes and settings. The updates work really well and within a week of having the washer in use it announced on the app there was an update and most programmes on the machine changed, including an upgrade to Powerwash 2 ( quick power wash duration changed from 59 mins to 49mins)

Unfortunately the cons outweigh the pros:

As you said the excessive sensitivity to imbalance is infuriating. As well as adding up to 20 mins to the wash time I'd say it only spins at 1600 on 70% of wash loads, deciding to reduce to 900-1200 for the remaining. Which means selecting an additional Spin cycle afterwards which almost always reaches 1600 straight away! The machine is perfectly levelled.

It water locks if any load is absorbent and more than half a load, which adds another 10 mins to the cycle.

if you add the short option ( dropping the cottons cycle from 2.55hr to 1.20hr) it only spins once during the rinses. Doesn't matter if you add an extra rinse or not. You could have four rinses but only one spin between them.

If you want to add something to the wash using the 'Add Laundry' option once you close the door and re start the cycle it will empty the drum of wash water and re fill with clean water, thus disposing of the laundry detergent. One user commented it only drops the water level to a safe level to open the door. This is not the case. Once you re start it drains the entire drum until you hear the pump chugging and will then re fill.

Not a fan of the power wash system. My white socks are not coming out as clean as they do in the AEG. It's an interesting system to watch, esp the spins at the start of the cycle but draining the drum of concentrated water with detergent once the clothes are wet so the clothes rotate against the heated drum does not agitate the clothes like a traditional system where the clothes are agitated/bashed against a small amount of water/detergent. The machine also defaults to power wash on a lot of cycles including the cottons programme if the load is not a full load and cannot be over ruled unless you choose a spin cycle of 400RPM or less.

Was very excited to receive this machine and really thought it was going to be an amazing piece of kit and was ready to replace the AEG heat pump with the matching Miele dryer, but the AEG dryer is staying and I can't wait to have the time to re-plumb the AEG 9000 back in.






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Post# 1129536 , Reply# 7   9/24/2021 at 20:58 (1,085 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Feedback

 mielerod69's profile picture
I have an older Miele W1 WMR861WPS and I'm very happy with the machine. Like others, the imbalance system is more sensitive than my older W5965, but I put that down to the larger tub in the same casing. I can be a little annoying, but I'm used to it now.
1. I agree with the new app being useless and don't like any of the 'new' features. They have definitely gone backward here.
3. With the messages coming up, you should be able to swipe the screen up to make it disappear. I have a similar screen on the G7000 dishwasher.
4. This makes sense as it adds more or less detergent depending on the soil level. As you mention, you can adjust the wash parameters by adding a prewash, soak or use the stains option which will lengthen the program.
5. There should be a yellow bar at the top of the display that you should be able to drag down to see the consumption during the program. Again, with my dishwasher, this can be a little difficult to drag the screen down.
6. Yes, normal is the energy program, so they probably lock that feature out. Again the instruction book is not always accurate.
7. Agree, but not a big issue anymore.
8. The length of time could be due to the temperature of the incoming water
9. Not an important point for me.
10. This could be due to load size and incoming water temperature. If you wash 5 shirts, you can enable the 'single wash' option as it's good for up to 1 kg (2.2 lbs) of laundry.
11. I have 10 favourites and it works for me.

Post# 1129550 , Reply# 8   9/25/2021 at 03:39 (1,084 days old) by Ivanovitch_k (Paris, France)        
led light

 I'm equally frustrated by the impossibility to turn the led on during cycles. However, I think they prevent you to do that in order not to kill the led. Led life is very temperature dependant, and they would need to condition led lightning to drum temperature or something to make it safe (for the led that is)...

Post# 1129552 , Reply# 9   9/25/2021 at 06:09 (1,084 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
W1 powerwash2

 ozzie908's profile picture
I don't have any of the issues the OP mentioned nor do I have the top of the line model its now 2 years old and has been used daily, Never an issue with spinning it even does it with towels and bathmats, I can add extra rinse and water levels if required but I trust it to know how much water it needs and it just gets on with it. I have got used to it being different to the W9444 I had before which although both having the 1600 the W1 seems to spin longer at top speed, It does not have WIFI nor TwinDos I did not want either as I use powder for whites and liquid for colours both of which I change at times and did not want to be tethered to Miele products. Have had Tech out 2x as there was a glitch in the program and although it did not drain when you added an item it would skip the majority of the wash cycle and go straight to rinse..... Its sorted now and I don't miss my old one anymore I don't think it will last 10 years but if not I won't buy another I will dig about and find a used one if I have to. The pic is before I plumbed it in.

Austin

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Post# 1129556 , Reply# 10   9/25/2021 at 08:10 (1,084 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Spinning

 Really can't agree.

I have a WWF 360 which should have the same tub/drum and it basically always spins at full speed and finishes within time.

Mine can add time after a PowerWash main wash on Cottons if the load is absorbent as it adds another rinse.

Also spins after every rinse with short selected.



If the machine denies full speed final spin it should store an error code in the service menu.
May be helpful to call service and ask if that warrants a technician visit.

Post# 1129598 , Reply# 11   9/25/2021 at 19:25 (1,084 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

stevefromsydney, thank you for your response. It's gratifying to know that I'm not the only one frustrated with this machine. I think that the frustration in particular is compounded by the feeling that the machine is so close to greatness because many or most of the issues could be resolved with nothing more than a software change.

 

I have experimented with changing the "Imbalance Sensor" setting to "Tacho + Imbal sensor" as indicated in my first post. I haven't had the chance to watch the machine enough yet to reach a definitive conclusion but my impression so far is that is has helped. So you may wish to try that.

Another Programming Mode setting you may wish to try is deactivating "Controlled energy cons." I have heard, but not confirmed, that it disables PowerWash completely. Since you don't like the results with PowerWash this might help you. I did change this setting on my machine and noted changed, usually significantly shortened, cycle times. However I have not yet run cycles to test the theory.

 

I agree with you that the draining of water and detergent in both the PowerWash and Add Laundry features is very odd and seems to be counterproductive, both to washing quality and efficiency. I almost never use Add Laundry so this isn't as important to me but I'd note you can always add a touch of extra detergent directly to the drum along with the additional laundry if you desire.

 

What exactly do you mean by it "water locks"? I wonder if this is some of my frustration with it extending cycle times.

 

mielerod69, thank you for your detailed notes.

 

2. Unfortunately swiping to dismiss the messages doesn't work. I tried it after reading your post and you have to wait for the message to scroll all the way down and tap "ok" before it will go away.

5. The yellow bar is present and you can drag it down to find the menu. But there is no actual EcoFeedBack, only the estimate before beginning the program. It never shows actual consumption and no post-cycle feedback is available.

8. Water temperature can indeed have a big impact on cycle times. However, my incoming water is 134F / 57C so shouldn't be an issue here.

10. Interestingly when I changed the setting noted above that supposedly turns off PowerWash the Dress Shirts cycle time dropped to about the same as the WWB 020 which did not feature PowerWash. I'll have to try running the cycle to see what happens.

 

Ivanovitch_k, this is a very interesting idea that I hadn't considered. However I would still think that very few laundry users would engage the light this way on a regular basis, but for enthusiasts it is still quite the disappointment and would certainly be worth a bulb or two to me over time. 

 

ozzie908, I appreciate your response and I'm glad to hear that you're enjoying the machine! Interesting to note that both your older machine and my older machine seem to be less sensitive to spinning issues than the latest models.

 

henene4, thank you for your response. Happy that you're not having problems with your machine. I'll check for codes related to spin, thank you for the idea. Does anybody have a code glossary or service manual?
Post# 1129692 , Reply# 12   9/26/2021 at 19:11 (1,083 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
PowerWash 2.0

 mielerod69's profile picture
I forgot to mention that when you select Water plus option it deactivates PowerWash 2.0. I do this when I'm washing whites as I want more water during the main wash. Maybe stevefromsydney should try it and see if it improves the results.

Post# 1129753 , Reply# 13   9/27/2021 at 13:18 (1,082 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

I sent Miele USA customer service an email asking if there were any plans to make EcoFeedBack available as advertised in a software update, any potential fix for the excessive M Touch messages, and if a service call was warranted for the imbalance issues. Here is the response that I got:

 

Dear Hippo
Thank you for contacting with us and glad to hlep you. As you ask, I will say Convenient and environmentally friendly dispensing, revolutionary economy with every load. Along with this information you get more information please visit www.mieleusa.com.
Should you need more information please do  not hesitated to contact us again.

 Regards,

Kamal H.

Miele Inc. | 9 Independence Way | Princeton NJ 08540 | United States
www.mieleusa.com

 

I knew their US customer service was bad but this is astonishingly bad. Completely irrelevant to the questions and basically nonsensical...

 

Does anybody know how to contact a competent person at Miele USA?
Post# 1129757 , Reply# 14   9/27/2021 at 14:40 (1,082 days old) by stevefromsydney (London)        

Hi Hippo,

Sorry you've had no luck with Miele USA email. I'm able to pull the little orange bar down on the screen able the program info whilst the machine is running and it tells me water and electric consumption in realtime. Since the app update it no longer shows on my phone.

Mielerod69 - thanks for the advice re water plus I will try that and see if it makes a difference.

henene4. Any idea if there is a setting or option that has to be selected to enable it to spin between all rinses. Again two loads today, cottons, 40C, short, and extra rinse selected( I also have the permanent extra rinse selected from within service mode) and it spun at 900rpm after the wash, then a rinse, dumps the water, another rinse then spins at 900, then a rinse, dumps the water, fills for final rinse and then final spin. I wouldn't need the permanent extra rinse if it spun between all rinses. I'm also surprised it doesn't spin at a higher speed after wash and during the rinse.

Post# 1129778 , Reply# 15   9/27/2021 at 17:54 (1,082 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Short option

 mielerod69's profile picture
Hi Steve,
I find it does the same with my model. I have extra rinse and water plus active and find it rinses well. I have adjusted the water plus level to three drops on the menu. I assume the short option is geared for lightly soiled laundry and therefore less detergent would be used. If you use the short option with Minimum Iron, it spins between each rinse and not just a short burst spin.

Post# 1129837 , Reply# 16   9/28/2021 at 14:55 (1,081 days old) by stevefromsydney (London)        

Thanks Mielerod69,

Nice to know my machine doesn't have a blip in the programming. How strange that on some models it spins after every wash on short and on others it doesn't.

Post# 1129976 , Reply# 17   9/30/2021 at 09:00 (1,079 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

I have now discovered that the machine will not dispense bleach as advertised.

I turned on the “Bleach” function in settings and the cycle times extend but no dispensing of bleach takes place. The bleach remains in the compartment at the end of the cycle. I have rebooted the machine and toggled the setting repeatedly and tried the Normal cycle, the Towels cycle (three times), and the Dress Shirts cycle. None of the tests were in conjunction with TwinDos.

I will try my luck with Miele USA again…

Post# 1130082 , Reply# 18   10/1/2021 at 11:49 (1,078 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
"Where Convenience Meets Performance"

 Wow already flaws in new units just rolled out. Miele cannot fix the prewash on prior models, now the bleach dispensing is useless in the new ones. WTF is wrong with Miele? They won't even acknowledge the issues. Total BS. Subject drift is laughable as posted on miele.usa.

Post# 1130142 , Reply# 19   10/1/2021 at 22:42 (1,078 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
"Does anybody know how to contact a competent person at Miele USA?"

There really doesn't seem to be a way sadly, everything is pretty much luck of the draw.

Have said MieleUSA had a huge shake-up of upper management along with other changes. Results have been a mixed bag, but plenty of people left the company.

Cannot be sure but it seems even before covid Miele had begun outsourcing customer service to some place in India (call center). This or making large use of CSR who work from home. Last few times have reached out to Miele customer support have gotten reps who "are having problems with their computer", another was wheezing, sneezing, coughing, snorting, blowing her nose, sniffling.. all while banging away at computer keyboard but couldn't understand my question (I hung up).

What is apparent is MieleUSA has separated out technical support from customer service. Days of getting a real Miele tech on phone when calling CS are over. You get someone with limited access to system and they really only know what is in front of them on screen.

Last few email CS requests one has made follow similar pattern; they are first read by someone in "Miele Professional Division", then forwarded to a lower tier person in (email says Princeton, NJ offices) but one has doubts as names are always Indian.

www.mieleusa.com/m/964.ht...

www.glassdoor.com/Reviews/Miele-...

mymieleexperience.com/my-story/...

FWIW here is job listing from about five years ago for Miele CSR inbound:

www.disabledperson.com/jo...

And here are reviews by some CSR working for MieleUSA at that time.

www.indeed.com/cmp/Miele/...

Latest posting as of August 2021:
www.helpwanted.com/aa8911...

Am not painting all Miele CSR with bad wide brush, and lord knows over past two decades have had my share of "bad" communications even with "old" system. But at least back then one stood a decent chance of getting a tech on phone who cared, knew about appliance in question and could walk you through some DIY bits.


Post# 1130149 , Reply# 20   10/2/2021 at 07:26 (1,077 days old) by Ivanovitch_k (Paris, France)        
"Controlled energy cons" option

 @Hippo

from the WT1 service manual (but also applies to W1), if that may be of any help:

The controlled energy consumption controls the duration of heating activation
to achieve the selected temperature in the laundry.
The heating time is calculated with the following parameters:
– Desired temperature
– Water quantity
– Start temperature before heating is activated
– Heater resistance
– Voltage
In unfortunate cases, the laundry temperature may be less than the selected
temperature.
This function can be activated/deactivated in the programming mode.


The heating switch-on duration is varied in order to control energy
consumption.
A Select the programmable function Controlled energy consumption and
confirm the selection.
A Select the programmable option and confirm the selection.
– Off: no calculation of heating time. The heating is controlled independently
of the temperature set.
– On: Factory default setting: the duration of heating is calculated using
the selected temperature, water quantity, water intake temperature, load
size and load type parameters.


Post# 1130150 , Reply# 21   10/2/2021 at 07:28 (1,077 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

If you have an IntenseWash equipped washer, turning that off will also switch off the IntenseWash algorithm.

Recirculation will still be active, however.

Post# 1130172 , Reply# 22   10/2/2021 at 14:30 (1,077 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

@Ivanovitch_k, thank you very much for that interesting information. Could you or anybody provide an explanation of what exactly it means though? What happens when the Controlled Energy Consumption is switched off and "heating is controlled independently of the temperature set?" Does that mean that the unit doesn't adjust the heating and runs the heater for a fixed time in each cycle?

 

The entire system as described is rather confusing to me since I always assumed the machines just used a thermostat to ensure that the target temperature was achieved. It sounds as though with Controlled Energy Consumption switched on that the machines guesses how much heating is needed based on all of those parameters instead of measuring the actual temperature? And then what does it do with Controlled Energy Consumption off?

 

@ henene4, unfortunately there is no direct option for this on the my US model.
Post# 1130198 , Reply# 23   10/2/2021 at 20:29 (1,077 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
" I always assumed the machines just used a thermostat to ensure that the target temperature was achieved."

Sadly that is not true, nor has been for some time now, at least for washing machines sold in Europe.

Days of thermo-stop settings on timers or whatever that will hold things until set temperature is reached seems to have gone way of Dodo. Some machines will hit set/target temperature, others don't. And when the latter doesn't it can be off by more than a few degrees.

www.ukwhitegoods.co.uk/he...

www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/...

"Even though we found machines often didn’t hit 60°C, manufacturers are not actually cheating the EU energy labels because there’s no requirement for the washing machine to reach the temperature stated on the control panel."

www.which.co.uk/news/2013...

Post# 1130201 , Reply# 24   10/2/2021 at 21:18 (1,077 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Thank you, @Launderess. That is very informative albeit disappointing.

Does anybody know if having Controlled Energy Consumption on or off for the Miele will lead to more accurate washing temperatures?

Post# 1130202 , Reply# 25   10/2/2021 at 21:44 (1,077 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
PR from Miele about new line of W1 and T1 models.

www.mieleusa.com/m/miele-...

Post# 1130204 , Reply# 26   10/2/2021 at 21:56 (1,077 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        

Off will heat by temp purely.
Unless a different temperature target is defined in the programming, what you select will be what you get.
If the cycle is designed to have a temp target lower than what you selected (for example in economy cycles) this lower temp will certainly reached.

So for example if the normal cycle (which is your label cycle) dosen't call for 140F when you select Hot+, even with controlled energy consumption off, it won't reach that.

However, for example, Easy Care will just heat to what you have selected.




And to clarify something:

What I tried to say before is that the IntenseWash process (heating with steam etc.) requires cec (controlled energy consumption) to be turned on.

So if you turn cec off the machine will always fill with water and completely saturate the load. "Normal washing" basically.




On the idea of CEC:

Miele realised that temp isn't really what you need, it's energy input.
As long as a certain amount of energy is used in cleaning a load - no matter in which order or in which way - the results will be basically the same.

So the machine knows that if it tumbles for a certain time, added a certain amount of energy and had the chemicals distributed correctly, the detergent will have had enough resources to dissolve dirt.
If it actually reaches exactly 140F, or 10F plus minus, dosen't really matter for cleaning.

For hygiene of course not. That's why many IntenseWash equipped machines had many options for such situations (AllergyCare, Cotton's Hygiene etc.)
For example, Cotton's Hygiene over here is now just about the same length as the normal Cottons cycle. Main difference is more heating. It could get clean with less energy, but that's not the objective there.






Maybe it's easier to understand on the dishwashers (yes, their dishwashers apparently do the same thing):

For drying, it always takes a certain amount of energy to evaporate a certain amount of water.
So, as the G7000 models know pretty spot on how much water the dishes need to be coated, it knows just about how much water has to evaporate off of them.

So to dry them, it has to provide that certain amount of energy.
How hot that ends up to be dosen't matter.





That function however makes a lot more sense over here.

Our energy label has pretty exact energy usage requirements tested with very simple input conditions.

So if Miele wanted to reach a certain efficiency rating, it doesn't have to define every test condition seperartly.
They just define how much cleaning action is required, set an energy budget and then their algorithm will just adjust accordingly.

So a 4kg in an Eco cycle will ALWAYS use 0.75kWh.
No matter how cold the water, how low the voltage, how bad the conditions.
Far more accurate than just timed heating.

I am still not sure if that function also works the other way around.
It could be possible that the machine overshoots temps on purpose. A load that is pretty large and unevenly heats might register as target temp before the core of the load reaches that temp.
Then CEC could theoretically know that the load can't yet have reached temp as there hasn't been enough energy delivered to the load and continue heating anyways.
No idea how to test if that is a case, but just a thought.

Post# 1130208 , Reply# 27   10/2/2021 at 22:48 (1,077 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

@henene4, thank you very much for your very detailed and thorough explanation!

That also makes sense with respect to why the cycle times decrease when Controlled Energy Consumption is off, if the energy usage is higher and the target temperature is assured through thermostatic control then less time is needed for equivalent cleaning, even if energy consumption is increased.

I would assume that this logic is automatically defeated for sanitize cycles?

It sounds as though anybody who desires to have their laundry reach their selected temperature should set Controlled Energy Consumption to off?

There is also another setting in programming mode, “Temperature Increase” with options On or Off. Off is the default. Does anybody know what that does and how it fits into this temperature puzzle?

I think it’s also worth noting that all USA machines feature hot water fill which obviously has some bearing on this discussion.

Post# 1130210 , Reply# 28   10/2/2021 at 23:14 (1,077 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Miele swore up and down for years they would never bring a 120v washing machine to USA. Things were always going to be 208v-240v (well 120v/208v-240v at least) or a host of reasons. That began to go by wayside for various reasons.

Don't know about 12XX washers, but 48XX, 30XX and now W1 series of washing machines all are 120v only. Indeed Miele announced a while back they no longer would sell 208v-240v washing machines in North America as part of domestic offerings. Commercial things like Little Giant washers are another matter.

All Miele 120v washer require connection to both hot and cold inlets. When set to default programming and varies by cycle washer will take in warm (as combining hot and cold), and so forth, then heat to proper temp. This is a nod to fact many North American homes have large storage tank or other means of ample hot water on demand.

Heating elements on these washers is low, IIRC W30XX are barely 1kW. You can change programming for these washers to "cold fill", but then things get interesting. Depending upon such variables as incoming tap cold water temp, set desired temp and washers' programming set temp may or may not be achieved.

To be fair older Miele washing machines have always required connecting to both hot and cold taps. If you wanted to hook them up to cold fill only, you still needed (as above) to use a "Y" connector. But those machines with 208v-240v power and heating elements at or over 2 kW could easily take tap cold water to 86F, 104F within short period of time. This even if using cycles that used more water for washing such as delicates or wool.

Hot water either filling from taps or heated by washing machine uses energy. My guess is by using hot water from taps is more about reducing work load on washing machine than anything else.

I mean with certain short cycles it just won't be possible to heat cold to very chilly tap water to say 86F or 104F using puny 1kW heating power. Well not unless you extend heating phase of cycle by using thermostop or something. Since by nature delicate and woolens cycles are for things not meant to be washed very long, there are limits.

Post# 1130215 , Reply# 29   10/3/2021 at 03:10 (1,077 days old) by Logixx (Germany)        
Temp increase

 logixx's profile picture
According to this manual, temp increase adds 5°C to the Cotton and Minimum Iron cycles.

fliphtml5.com/jknmy/kxha...

Post# 1130223 , Reply# 30   10/3/2021 at 05:12 (1,076 days old) by AquaCycle (West Yorkshire, UK)        

aquacycle's profile picture
I had a Miele W562 for 10 years and it was a lovely machine. I couldn’t fault it at all. I upgraded to a W1 machine - a WCG120 XL.

BIG mistake.

It have very bizarre programming.

1. The express cycle with only 1 rinse was near useless. I don’t use it often but it’s a handy feature to have for freshening up a small load.

2. The cottons cycle was 2:44 for no fuzzy logic. If the machine sensed a smaller load, which it very rarely did, instead of adjusting the time properly like my old machine, it would default to the short option.

3. On cottons short, the rinsing was appalling. It would fill as the machine ramped down from spin but as soon as the water level was reached, it would pump out. The rinses lasted about 3 minutes. And it only did 2.

4. Minimum Iron was a much more reasonable cycle at 1:58 with 3 rinses BUT if the machine detected it had anything more than a full load in it, it would abort the cycle at the end of the main wash.

5. In the year and a half that I had it, I had Miele out to it 3 times. The first time because water was pooling on the door seal and running onto the floor when I opened the door, the second and third times were for excessive noise. See link below. It sounded like it was trying to vibrate its way into next door most of the time. And yes, the machine was level and the transit bolts were removed.

I sold both the washer and dryer and bought a Siemens set last April, which are both fabulous.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO AquaCycle's LINK


  View Full Size
Post# 1130319 , Reply# 31   10/4/2021 at 08:55 (1,075 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Reply #30, Siemens

 Do they have a blue, or is it white, display?

Bosch machines are red digits - and nigh on impossible to read clearly with failing eyesight. I don't know why some manufacturers can't grasp that fact.

Post# 1130341 , Reply# 32   10/4/2021 at 11:43 (1,075 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)        
I have a Sharp MWO

 ozzie908's profile picture
Its impossible to read if the suns shining or the lights are on so either way its a guess what temp etc I am setting it to.

Preferred the Panasonics green/ish led's could see those in any light.

Am suffering the same as Rolls Rapide ageing eyesight is no joke.

Austin

Post# 1130353 , Reply# 33   10/4/2021 at 12:42 (1,075 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Reply #32

 Yes, green or blue, or even amber is fine. My current Slovenian Panasonic has large blue icons and digits. Very clear to see.

The previous Panasonic had a white backlit LCD screen, with black digits, if I remember rightly, and a ring of red LEDs around the programme dial. That implementation was fine too.

You'd think the manufacturers (Bosch) might conduct a 'usability test' before plonking the appliances on the market with small red displays. There must be a large number of irritated folk who have this problem - probably older folk who buy Bosch for supposed quality.

Post# 1130465 , Reply# 34   10/5/2021 at 15:56 (1,074 days old) by AquaCycle (West Yorkshire, UK)        

aquacycle's profile picture
@Rolls_Rapide it’s a white display

Post# 1130507 , Reply# 35   10/6/2021 at 05:46 (1,073 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
"it’s a white display"

 Thanks!

Post# 1132541 , Reply# 36   11/2/2021 at 17:14 (1,046 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

An independent Miele technician visited today for warranty service to investigate the non-functioning bleach dispenser. He rans tests on all the values and flow routes and reported them to all function perfectly. He agreed with my suspicion that the failure to dispense bleach was purely software related. He reported that he ran a firmware update on the machine but did not have time to run a cycle to test the bleach dispensing afterwards. I will try a cycle with bleaching activated tonight to see if it solves the problem.

Despite the very, very slow service from Miele's warranty department the technician was friendly, knowledgable, and helpful and I'd happily use the same company again for service.

Post# 1132560 , Reply# 37   11/2/2021 at 23:22 (1,046 days old) by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Still no fix for Prewash issue USA W1 WWF060, Miele will not even acknowledge the issue exists anymore. And you think they care about your bleach dispenser? Miele has serious issues and they do not care about any issues we are having with our W1's. When was this software update released? Can you verify the version changed? I would take anything they say with a grain of salt. I bet the tech didn't do anything other than lie to you and leave. My bet is he did NOTHING!

Post# 1132603 , Reply# 38   11/3/2021 at 15:38 (1,045 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Bleach still does not dispense properly. The contents of compartment 2 are still in compartment 2 after the cycle when bleach dispensing is activated. I have so far tested Normal, Extra White, and Towels cycles.

I did notice during the Normal cycle that there was a sound of water dispensing at the correct time in the cycle (10 minutes before end of main wash block) but compartment 2 was not flushed as far as I could tell. I will test further and have also requested another warranty service visit to investigate further.

I cannot verify that a software update was indeed performed. I neglected to photograph the software version screen before the tech visit. If anybody has a non-updated WXR 860 and would like to share their software versions we can compare.

Post# 1132605 , Reply# 39   11/3/2021 at 17:06 (1,045 days old) by mielerod69 (Australia)        
Bleach dispensing

 mielerod69's profile picture
Hi Hippo,
Shouldn't the bleach go in compartment 1 on the right-hand side not 2 on the left?

Post# 1132639 , Reply# 40   11/3/2021 at 23:35 (1,045 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

mielerod69, my apologies, I got the compartment numbering wrong in my last post. I have indeed been putting bleach in the (I) number one compartment as intended.

I do believe that I did in fact receive a software update. The machine no longer generates an annoying message prompting you to put detergent in both compartments when you manually select a prewash with TwinDos deactivated. It now only shows the prompt when a stains option adds a prewash automatically, which is useful. This stands out to me as a change since the message annoyed me so greatly when I initially received the machine.

Post# 1133847 , Reply# 41   11/18/2021 at 00:24 (1,031 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Some updates:

Bleach injection now works. I believe the software update mostly fixed it. I say mostly because some behavior is confusing. The list of cycles in the manual for which bleaching is possible (Normal, Sanitize, Wrinkle-Free, Dress Shirts, Extra White, Table Linens / Drapes, and Baby Clothes) does not perfectly correspond to the cycles whose times are extended 10 minutes when bleaching is activated. Specifically the Towels cycle extends its time 10 minutes but as far as I can tell does not add bleach. Nonetheless I’ve successfully tested bleach dispensation now with Baby Clothes, Normal, and Extra White.

The software update has slightly reduced the number of annoying pop-up messages in the display. Specially there is no longer a reminder to add detergent to both compartments when manually selecting a prewash, now only when selecting a stain that automatically adds a prewash, which is useful.

One of the technicians repositioned the drain hose so that it doesn’t hang as far down the drain pipe. He said this would improve pumping and prevent backflow. The change has substantially helped prevent the machine from unnecessarily adding time to cycles. What I thought was a reluctance to spin seems to have been a pumping issues. The machine is still more sensitive to balance and tries to rebalance a little more often than my last Miele but it is much more tolerable.

I have not been able to test for the prewash water inlet error since I got the software update. While I use prewash very frequently, I almost never use it on the Normal cycle which was the only cycle with which I ever experienced that error before, and then only very rarely. I use prewash with Baby Clothes cycle multiple times a week and have never had the error on that cycle since I got the machine. I will report if I ever encounter the error again, hopefully it is also solved.

I still find some of the software design decision oddities disappointing, particularly the omission of EcoFeedback actual consumption, the lack of ability to use the drum light during a cycle, and the lack of ability to select Water Plus on the machine itself as opposed to in the app. However I am appreciating the extensive configurability of the cycles and stain options. The cleaning performance is excellent and I’ve gotten used to the longer cycle times for the most part. While the casual user could certainly just select the logical cycle and stain options and use this machine easily, there are so many possible permutations of the cycles that really understanding how it works and what all the options do is a remarkably involved pursuit. While I’d still like to own a Little Giant sooner or later I wouldn’t give up this machine for anything else.

The Baby Clothes cycle is an exceptional program that Miele seems to have flown under the radar. I really don’t know why they decided to call it Baby Clothes, but it is simply a far superior cottons cycle to Normal. It uses significantly more water in the main wash making it great for large loads and sweatpants and sweatshirts that absorb a lot and for heavily soiled items. The wash water level isn’t as high as Darks, but it is sufficient for the recirculation pump to always run successfully, even with a full load, which I have observed to not be the case on Normal and Wrinkle-Free (the latter of which I’ve stopped using entirely as I’ve never seen it wet a load even remotely sufficiently, not sure why). The main wash runs for a little less than an hour for a full load or about 40 minutes for a small or medium load. Although the manual says that it only conducts two rinses it actually conducts three, the first two with a very high water level. Given the high water level in the rinses and the high interstitial spin speed the Baby Clothes cycle provides exceptional rinsing performance. Using the extra rinse option adds another high level rinse for a total of four rinses if desired. I like this cycle so much I’ve started using it with the Gentle option for my mixed causal cottons and with stain options and prewash for dirty work clothes and it excels at both.

Two questions about TwinDos:

I just received a replacement Ultra Phase 1 which says “Now with an improved Formula” on the bottle and in the ingredients there is no mention of any enzymes. Miele’s webpage for Ultra Phase 1 implies that there are 7 enzymes in it. Does anybody know if Ultra Phase 1 is still formulated with enzymes?

The second tech who visited adjusted my TwinDos dosage for both 1 and 2 to half the recommended values stated in the manual. When I asked him about this he said that Miele issued new dosing recommendations due to complaints of excessive residue and sudsing. Although our water is very soft I’ve never experienced these issues with TwinDos. Has anybody been told that Miele has changed the dosage recommendations?

Post# 1133854 , Reply# 42   11/18/2021 at 04:59 (1,030 days old) by Brisnat81 (Brisbane Australia)        

Miele did the same when they replaced my twin dos module, they halved both formulas as apparently the reccomended dose was way to high. I’ve had no issues with cleaning performance since.

Post# 1133890 , Reply# 43   11/18/2021 at 14:25 (1,030 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        
Ultraphase 1 enzymes...

 There are six:

Subtilisin ( protease),
Cellulase,
Amylase,
Lipase,
Pectate-Lyase,
Beta-Mannanase.


media.miele.com/downloads/91/e5/...

Post# 1133911 , Reply# 44   11/18/2021 at 23:01 (1,030 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

Thank you very much for the response, Rolls_rapide.

However, that document doesn’t match the other ingredients listed on my new bottle. They seem to have substantially reformulated it and I wonder if it still has enzymes. Please see the photo of the bottle I’ve received.

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Post# 1133912 , Reply# 45   11/18/2021 at 23:40 (1,030 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
"Not Suitable For Silk Or Wool"

 launderess's profile picture
On laundry product label often is a clear indication it contains enzymes. That or perhaps pH is so high (alkaline) would harm either fiber, but don't see anything out of ordinary in picture posted above.

It would be quite odd for Miele's Ultraphase detergent to go non-bio. Nearly all top shelf laundry detergents sold in USA and Europe at least all contain enzymes, often advanced cocktails of same to enhance performance. Indeed to get optimal results when laundering in warm to cool (or cold) water you need enzymes.

Am going to leave UK and that whole "non-bio" drama on sidelines for purposes of this discussion. *LOL*

Post# 1133963 , Reply# 46   11/19/2021 at 16:03 (1,029 days old) by Jerrod_Six (Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I have the previous version of the 860 washer and also use the baby clothes cycle in place of normal. I agree it is a truly good cycle and not just for baby clothes. I manually adjusted the Twin Dos dosing amount in the settings menu because the preset amount the machine comes configured with was just too high. I have modified the dosing a few times and have decided to use the least amount of product that will provide a good clean.

You mentioned getting more Ultraphase detergent. Did you buy the regular Ultraphase or the Ultraphase Elixir? The Elixir is supposed to suppress odors or and be good for poly-type garments. I don't have many of those for everyday use and am not interested in trying the Elixir.



Post# 1133966 , Reply# 47   11/19/2021 at 17:09 (1,029 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)        

I've had a look at all the EU data sheets, and I can only find a maximum of six enzymes in some of the detergents. The 'sensitive' and 'sports' have less than that.

I had a look at Miele USA and Miele Canada... and they seem to treat these consumers as not worthy of suitable product ingredient information.

I'm wondering whether the 'seven enzymes' formulation really exists at all. Perhaps some idiot in the marketing department goofed. It wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Post# 1134010 , Reply# 48   11/20/2021 at 00:38 (1,029 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
IIRC "Normal" cycle on washing machines sold in USA is often the last choice one should use. By federal regulations that is the default cycle with low energy use (ready puny water levels and so forth), and also by regulations cannot be altered much if at all.

Happily thanks to modern machines being wholly computer controlled offering a wealth of cycle options isn't an issue. There usually are several cycles other than "Normal/Cottons/Linens" that will do what is wanted.

Post# 1134312 , Reply# 49   11/23/2021 at 13:23 (1,025 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

@Launderess,
I agree that it would be very strange for them to go non-enzymatic. I also agree that the Normal settings is not optimal for most functions. Unfortunately Miele is a little too prescriptive with many of the other cycles. For example, the Darks cycle features an excellent gentle but thorough main wash with high water and good rinsing, but it is limited to a 1200 RPM spin speed and a maximum load of 2kg making it quite suboptimal for a full load of sweatshirts for example. The greatest manifestation of this issue is a lack of cycles that clean relatively gently but with full loads and 1600 RPM spin. Miele seem to restrict 1600 RPM spin to only aggressive agitation cycles but, unless my understanding is wrong, except for very sensitive items a high speed spin will only wrinkle the clothes, not damage them. Excessive wash agitation with low water level, on the other hand, will cause damage and wear. Thus the Baby Clothes cycle with Gentle option is the best cycle I've found so far for thorough but relatively gentle cleaning that allows a 1600 RPM spin and full load.

@Jerrod_Six,
good to know that you also find a lot of use for the Baby Clothes cycle. I purchased the regular Ultra Phase 1 detergent, not the Elixir. I also don't have those particular needs.

I know that the correct dosing will depend on laundry habits and water hardness, but what dosages did you settle on?

Here we have very soft water and the manual recommends 46/36ml. The tech set it at 24/13 "per Miele recommendation." I've since increased it to 30/18 and am continuing to evaluate. There is now almost no scent left on the clothes whereas before it was heavy. I primarily use Twindos for mixed casual clothes (sweatshirts, t-shirts, etc) and bedding, I use other products for heavily soiled items, delicates, and towels.

@Rolls_rapide
Miele in general treats US customers as an afterthought with fewer options and information as well as poor customer service and warranty compared to Europe, it is disappointing. I emailed them asking about the enzymes at the same time I posted the question to this thread and I have not heard back.


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