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Thread Number: 88667
/ Tag: Detergents and Additives
Prewash |
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Post# 1132024 10/27/2021 at 06:04 (905 days old) by mrboilwash  (Munich,Germany) |
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Let`s talk about the prewash cycle!
As far as I know a prewash is especially useful when a washload has a high content of pigment dirt or oils, as part of it is flushed out before the actual wash cycle and thus chances of redepositing of dissolved soil are lessened. Due to environmental concerns the prewash cycle which used to be a normal part of the wash cycle of FLs in the past has fallen out of favor a long time ago. I think in the 60s the prewash usually had a high water level of warm water and then after a drain only it was followed by a more economical low water level main wash. In the 70s both the pre- and main wash tended to be low water to be more economical but low water was still a lot so there was still plenty of dilution of the dirt going on even if a spin between pre and main wash still wasn`t possible or desirable. My "modern" 17 years old Miele of course has very low water levels for both pre and main wash but it does at least a short burst of spin between which is a brilliant way to lessen the amount of dirt to be carried over to the main wash. I wish it would do a longer low speed spin instead, but still appreciate what it does. So what do you think of using the prewash these days, and if you like to use it what exactly does your machine do? Does it spin between pre and main wash? I think if it doesn`t and has super low water levels on both then there`s not much point in using it. | ||
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Post# 1132030 , Reply# 1 10/27/2021 at 08:13 (905 days old) by gizmo (Victoria, Australia) |
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My Miele W3831 does it through the soil level selector - select heavy soil and you get a prewash; select normal or light soil = no prewash.
We have sticky clay soil at our place so if I have very dirty gardening clothes, I select heavy soil. Everything comes out clean. | ||
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Post# 1132035 , Reply# 3 10/27/2021 at 09:11 (905 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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You Do Not Wash In Dirty Water!
That is how things were done in old days. Whites and any other soiled or marked colourfast items were pre-washed or soaked first, then into main wash. This was either laundry done by hand or machine. Depending upon type of washing machine some soaked or pre-washed by hand, then chucked lot into washer to finish.
Owners manual for my Miele W1070 (1980's through early 1990's) suggest same as many other European washers of same vintage. Pre-wash was part of "Normal" cottons/linens, Easy Cares and if one wished even Delicates. Miele did suggest for lightly soiled laundry to skip pre-wash by selecting "short" cycle. Miele like other washers at that time also suggested when using liquid detergents pre-wash could be omitted. By middle of 1960's or so detergents began to step up their game (at least in Europe) so pre-wash wasn't always necessary. Normal/Main wash was perfectly fine for most wash. This especially since washers could start with cold water then proceed to warm, hot or boiling as selected. Phosphates were replaced by other substances that kept soil from redepositing, so in theory one long wash could replace two short. Of course when energy crisis hit in 1970's there was a mad rush to reduce consumption. Not just for households, but overall use for nations as well. One way towards that goal was eliminating pre-wash unless absolutely necessary. My older Miele has both a pre-wash and extended pre-soak. My AEG Lavamat front loader has pre-wash and soaking. The newest AEG in my stable (toplader) doesn't have pre-soak, but IIRC there is a pre-wash somewhere. For grossly soiled or marked laundry still feel a pre-wash is required. Even if short it will flush away much of surface soils, dust, and help begin lifting marks. Again we don't wash in dirty water. All this being said modern front loaders with 2.5 to three (or a bit more) hour wash cycles don't seem to require prewash. Even if necessary one is loathe to go there with our AEG washers. Nearly 3.5 hours for a bloody load of wash is more than job of housekeeping is worth. For really badly soiled table linen or something, will just fill a tub or bucket with warm water and bit of detergent, then let things soak for a few hours or overnight. Then bung things into washer to finish. | ||
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Post# 1132036 , Reply# 4 10/27/2021 at 09:16 (905 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 1132042 , Reply# 5 10/27/2021 at 10:08 (904 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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That first commercial marks the introduction of detergents with enzymes as important ingredient for a main wash detergent. Before that dedicated enzyme detergents were used in the prewash and then regular detergent for the main wash. Perhaps until then enzymes and oxygen bleach didn't go well together, but that is just my guess. Perhaps someone else knows more about this. I remember my mother using Biotex in the prewash and Dixan in the main wash.
There was Biotex groen (green) for soaking and Biotex blauw (blue) for the prewash, hence the washing machine on the blue version. The slogan was "Biotex maakt wassen bijna overmodig" (Biotex makes washing almost unnecessary). | ||
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Post# 1132047 , Reply# 7 10/27/2021 at 11:07 (904 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Cannot recall if Biz started out as a pre-soak product with enzymes and colro safe bleach, or just the first. In any event nearly all early enzyme wash products in USA early on (Biz, Axion, Trizyme, etc..." were all mainly presoaking products. Directions on some boxes did state one could add bit of product to wash along with detergent.
Here is early patent for what one assumes became Biz. patents.google.com/patent/US3553... patents.google.com/patent/US3519... Don't think sodium perborate (oxygen bleach) interfered with enzyme activity while dry. Then again would have to look it up. P&G soon moved enzyme technology to their TOL laundry detergent Tike (XK). This was the beginning of end for Biz (another P&G brand. More so when Tide with Bleach came on scene. People realized they didn't need to purchase two separate products. That Tide or any other enzyme detergent worked well in pre wash or soak. Problem with using sodium perborate as oxygen bleach for these pre-soak products was the stuff isn't very active at temps below 140 degrees F. Hence long contact time via soaking. Artur Godfrey got himself into hot water as spokesman for Axion. He was going on about how the product "wasn't a detergent".... But it really was for all intents and purposes. Axion just contained enzymes which then most laundry detergents sold in USA did not. But there was worse to come... Arthur Godfrey had been also going on about the environment (Green was big even then). Turns out Axion as then formulated contained huge amounts of phosphates. This was the time when there was a hate on about phosphates creating froth in American waterways. Here is a commercial for first incarnation of Biz. Notice no mention of "bleach", just pre-soaking. Now you have Biz *bleach* which was added along with detergent to main wash. | ||
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Post# 1132049 , Reply# 8 10/27/2021 at 11:57 (904 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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I could imagine that enzymes in their early days were still too expensive to be wasted in a fast heated wash cycle, hence the need for separate soak and prewash products.
My mother`s fist Bosch in the 60s was connected to a 380V line, so heating from ice cold to 95° was done in no time at all. But that`s only a guess and doesn`t explain why Americans had similar products on the market. My gripe with modern water stingy washers that don`t spin after the prewash is that assuming a 5 kg load holds about 15 liters of water in the soaking wet clothes plus let`s say 5 liters for the fill. So if it only drains it means 3/4 of the dirt that has been dissolved in the prewash is carried over to the main wash where just another 5 liters of fresh water are added. | ||
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Post# 1132060 , Reply# 9 10/27/2021 at 13:53 (904 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Stefan, you might have a point there! Detergents with enzymes were rather expensive I think.
My newer Siemens spins after the prewash, IIRC the older one did so too. None of the other older machines did a spin after the prewash and my mother's 1965 Bosch certainly didn't, it didn't even spin between rinses. Is it perhaps a difference between brands rather than older vs newer? | ||
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Post# 1132064 , Reply# 10 10/27/2021 at 14:44 (904 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Louis, it`s interesting to hear your newer Siemens spins after the prewash, I heard the W1 Mieles don`t do it anymore what I find rather disappointing.
I think the first generation of Mieles and those with the backsplash controls used the high rinse water level for the prewash instead of a spin which also limits the amount of dirt carried over to the main wash. Not sure about the water level of the prewash of my mother`s old Bosch, but I also remember it only spun once at the end of the cycle. | ||
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Post# 1132065 , Reply# 11 10/27/2021 at 14:52 (904 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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My W1 does do an interim spin after the pre-wash and it's of the most current generation. My previous gen one did, too. Only brands I know that don't do that are the cheaper ones. Beko, Bauknecht (though not sure now that they are Hotpoint that might have changed), Gorenje. | ||
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Post# 1132066 , Reply# 12 10/27/2021 at 14:59 (904 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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My mother had a Bosch like the one in the picture.hers was a bit older, the blue control panel was a few shades lighter. IIRC that machine did a prewash with a low water level. I'm pretty sure, I kept an eye on that machine very often! lol
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Post# 1132067 , Reply# 13 10/27/2021 at 15:00 (904 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany)) |
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Actually, I should clarify that it does an interim spin after the pre-wash both in normal cycles or with short selected. Water level is the same as the main wash. Heated to about 30C. On Cottons, the normal pre-wash is about 30min. You can extend it in the settings IIRC. With short, the pre-wash is cut to 15min or so but still runs an interim spin. | ||
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Post# 1132084 , Reply# 14 10/27/2021 at 18:01 (904 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Ever since washer/extractors came upon scene there has been a debate about spinning between pre-wash or flush and main wash cycles.
Some feel doing so pulls dirty water through wash, and thus prefer pre-wash water merely be drained, then fresh added for main wash. OTOH others feel it is better to remove dirty water via extraction between flush or pre-wash cycles. This likely because it may result in less carry over of soils into main wash. For record nearly nil to no commercial or industrial washers/extractors spin between flush or pre-wash and main wash cycles. Though many can be programmed to do so, most owners don't bother. SQ washers/extractors at local laundromat merely drain pre-wash water, then fill with water and detergent for main wash. Other reason for not extracting between pre-wash and main wash cycle may have something to do with water use. If you extract between those two cycles load will need more water for main as it will absorb more. This of course would vary by type of fabrics and how well things were extracted between the two cycles. Similar reasons surround debate between whether to extract between main wash and subsequent rinses. Many commercial washers don't, or have only short pulse extract cycles. My older Miele doesn't spin at all until after third rinse, and even then it is a very short pulse affair. There is only one full extraction between fourth and fifth rinse. This may have something to do with fear of suds lock with older washers that lacked sophisticated computer control of motor, pump, tub movements, etc.... | ||
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Post# 1132089 , Reply# 15 10/27/2021 at 18:22 (904 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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"But that`s only a guess and doesn`t explain why Americans had similar products on the market."
Certain soils or marks shift easier if not totally with enzymes. Hence you see all these "Bleach Alternative" products that contain sophisticated enzyme cocktails along with healthy dose of OBAs. Idea is to mimic results of using bleach... Keep in mind on this side of pond then and still today most Americans equate "bleach" with chlorine bleach. As adverts above make clear there are certain fabrics or clothing you simply cannot use chlorine bleach upon. Also remember chlorine bleach pretty much kills any living organism it comes into contact with, this includes enzymes in laundry products. Then and still today laundry detergents or other products that contain enzymes sold in USA come with directions *not* to add chlorine bleach in same load. That or one must wait five or so minutes before adding. Five minutes isn't enough time for enzymes to work, but given comparatively short wash cycles in American top loaders compromises had to be made. This is why early enzyme products for wash day were pre-soakers or maybe for pre-wash. There you could get ten, twenty or more minutes for product to work effectively. Then washed as normal including use of chlorine bleach. You also have fact American top loading washers did not have internal heaters. Many housewives or anyone else doing laundry stopped following practice of their grandmothers in days of semi-automatic or hand washing; pre-soaking wash in cool or warm water before going onto hot main wash. Starting with a hot wash may kill off good amount of enzymes in products to point of why bother. Not to mention hot water sets many stains including protein based. Today of course enzymes are available that will work in "cold" water. Even back when first introduced most enzymes were still active in "hot" water between 120F to 150F, but again much depended upon particular strain of enzymes. Advanced enzyme cocktails formulated into detergents cost money. This is why bottom shelf products are almost always "non-bio" in USA. If you get proteinase that is something, but most cheap products don't even go that far. Other differences between USA and other side of pond largely reflect use top loading washers without internal heaters to H-axis machines with found in Europe. Detergents and other products for top loading washers sold in USA were normally of high dilution sort. They also had to work in comparatively fast cycles and "hot" water being whatever came out of taps. Largest gripe against H-axis washers by Americans of all sorts then (including consumer testing groups) was they had endless cycles and took ages to complete load of wash. Heavy reliance upon chlorine bleach meant many Americans in both domestic and commercial/industrial settings weren't that bothered about enzymes. | ||
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Post# 1132095 , Reply# 16 10/27/2021 at 18:43 (904 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Another thing...
Industrial or commercial laundries in USA largely didn't bother with enzymes. With entire cycle running about 30 to 35 minutes start to finish, they just didn't feel had that sort of time. Instead such laundries relied upon tried and trusted historical technology; chemicals.
Certain soils/marks are shifted by alkaline substances, others by acids. Blood can be removed by alkaline pH conditions and high temperatures along with aggressive agitation. British laundries for years used nothing more than soap along with sodium metasilicate (builder) and high temps to shift blood from wash. What traces remained could be bleached out with perborate or chlorine. Yellow stains caused by sebum? Oxalic or certain other acids again with high temperatures will take care of that. Mind you all this high temperature washing used quite a bit of energy. Coupled with extreme pH levels (acid or alkaline) and rest of things took a toll on textiles as well. Typical wash program for heavy soil: (1) Five-minute cold rinse; (2) 10-minute soak in hot suds; (3) 10-minute soak in hot suds; (4) 10-minute soak in hot suds, with bleach; (5) five hot rinses with live steam; (6) six cold rinses, and a germicide solution is used in the third cold rinse; (7) water is extracted; (8) dried in tumblers under 125 pounds of live steam; In commercial/industrial setting general rule is no wash cycle should be longer than 8-12 minutes. If loads need say twenty minutes of washing, that is broken down into two "ten" minute cycles. In theory if wash temps are kept at 150F or below enzyme based products could work in above formula. But often for many reasons (including sanitation) temps are often at 160F to 180f. | ||
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Post# 1132134 , Reply# 17 10/28/2021 at 02:12 (904 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Launderess, does your FL AEG spin after prewash?
I`ve had a lower end model similar to yours which was replaced after a year or so with the Miele I still have, but I can`t remember anything about the prewash part of the cycle. Suppose I haven`t seen much sense in using it back then. According to Henrik the newer ones do, but yours and the one I had came from an entirely different range of models. | ||
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Post# 1132135 , Reply# 18 10/28/2021 at 02:42 (904 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Can't really say I'm sure.. | ||
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Post# 1132136 , Reply# 19 10/28/2021 at 02:49 (904 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 1132138 , Reply# 20 10/28/2021 at 04:13 (904 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1132142 , Reply# 21 10/28/2021 at 05:37 (904 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Pre wash
Hello Stefan
Now this is interesting as we have been discussing this with the UK boys recently, Alistair (vacbear58) always does a pre wash with whites / high temps and dirty darks but many of us do not unless say for myself washing sofa covers/ curtains / mats etc to sluice the dust and dirt away. Having grown up with Ariel from the 60`s firstly the blue logo non automatic twintub handwash version mum would always use a pre wash in the sink or nappy bucket using Biotex enzyme powder or Milton steralising fluid for nappies, also green fairy soap bar for stubborn stains shirt collars etc.
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Post# 1132143 , Reply# 22 10/28/2021 at 05:53 (904 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Pre Wash
Most of our UK made automatics Servis Hotpoint Hoover had an independant pre wash which you could select with a high (half way up the door and tub) water level, gentle tumbles heated to 40d then pumpout distribution drain, you then turned the programmer dial to select your main wash programme, heavy duty white wash at 95d could have an auto built in pre wash .
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Post# 1132147 , Reply# 23 10/28/2021 at 06:19 (904 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Pre wash
In 1982 the pre wash / soak wash took a whole new level when Servis Domestic Appliances UK (the only British Independent Laundry Manufacturer) worked in collaboration with Proctor & Gamble
to produce an award winning microchip washing machine, the Servis Quartz, with the new Ariel Automatic with enzymes for cool water washing. They had an auto pre wash for every programme and a special programme called Multi Fabric Wash which was a low temp soak tumble wash which heated the water to 30d with a high water level and gentle intermittent tumbles , usually set overnight and then finished in the morning ready to line dry. This enabled different types of colourfast fabrics to be washed with light colours and whites taking advantage of the enzyme wash with new Ariel Automatic. Saying that Ive used the auto pre-wash occasionally and the same with the multifabric wash , reason being for me even with sorted laundry loads this machine completed even a 90d wash pretty quickly. Ariel was always the default powder of choice prior to that Servis advertised using Daz blue automatic for whites and Bold biological for colours. | ||
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Post# 1132148 , Reply# 24 10/28/2021 at 06:21 (904 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Post# 1132245 , Reply# 25 10/29/2021 at 04:31 (903 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 1132267 , Reply# 29 10/29/2021 at 12:08 (902 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Think about what happens during extraction/spin cycles. You are forcing water and any soils present through fabrics as they are forced to sides of tub to exit via holes.
Soil and muck will be strained through laundry especially things in middle. Not extracting until after two, three or more rinses ensures most if not good portion been removed. Same would apply for extracting between pre-wash and main cycle. Again not everyone agrees with this theory. For ages when wash was done by hand laundry was extracted (ok, wringed or put through mangle), before each change of water. This lessened amount of soil carried over into next cycle. Those who take up this position feel subsequent rinses, especially done with enough water and good agitation will liberate any soil and muck trapped in textile fibers, flush it out into water that will go down drain. Interestingly if one chooses "Sensitive" on AEG washers there are two deep rinses after main wash with no extraction in between. OTOH normal "Cottons/Linens" does extract after main wash and each subsequent rinse. In short "Sensitive" option is rather like my older Miele washer which gives three rinses before first spin. Thing is less water is used for rinsing (largely by eliminating one or more cycles),if extraction is done after wash and between each rinse. Savings in water are still had even though extracted laundry will absorb more water at next fill because it is drier. Savings come from eliminating a few of those rinse cycles. Of course modern front loaders often use far less water per rinse than machines of old. So even if they still have three or four rinses overall water use is probably less. | ||
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Post# 1132324 , Reply# 30 10/30/2021 at 07:49 (902 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Cannot speak for other side of pond, but here in USA as of 1970 presoak products were no different than detergents, loaded with phosphates.
Axion, Biz, Amway Trizyme.. were all > 60% phosphates. Biz was lowest at about 61% but rest were over 70%. books.google.com/booksQUESTIONMA... | ||
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Post# 1132338 , Reply# 32 10/30/2021 at 10:48 (901 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK) |
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Use pre-wash 
For soiled kitchen cloths as I tend to use them for getting things out of the oven and if they spill the cloth catches the mess and saves cleaning up.
Some cloths with heavy staining IE tomato benefit from a prewash before the main hot wash of which I tend to choose a 75c temp, Have used the 95c to clean the machine and whiten towels but have stopped using it as a normal temp due to electricity prices rising. Have also started to save all whites and take them up the shed to wash/boil in twin tub thus reusing hot water over and over then after a good spin to get the detergent out I put them in a whirlpool top loader to rinse it does a great job !! Austin | ||
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Post# 1132339 , Reply# 33 10/30/2021 at 10:50 (901 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Post# 1132341 , Reply# 34 10/30/2021 at 11:29 (901 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Interesting.....
Understand a bit of that German commercial for Persil. Well not exactly what is being said, but the advertising pitch in general. This "neue" Persil had common protein enzyme (subtilisin) and used sodium perborate as oxygen bleach. Results one achieved depended upon temperature for certain washes. Kochwasche - is "boil wash" hence the pile of whites in front of box marked so. Buntwäsche - is coloured fabrics that one washed at 60 degrees Celsius Feinwasche - cold or warm wash (30 or 40 degrees Celsius) for things made from rayon, synthetics, but not wool or silk. The latter would be harmed by enzymes. Thanks to addition of enzyme no presoak product was necessary. Like Ariel in other commercial Persil box says this product is " hauptwaschmittel" indicting it is used in main wash, not a presoak product. However of course one could use it so if wished. www.sbazar.cz/APoloapo/de... | ||
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Post# 1132563 , Reply# 36 11/2/2021 at 23:33 (898 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Ariel
Overhere in the Netherlands Ariel was available with the blue logo as a low sudsing detergent for automatic washing machines. That is the same as the one in the first commercial Launderess posted in Reply #3. I used that detergent in my Philips AWB119 toploader that I bought in 1982. I think I used a box or two before the move to Ariel with the green logo.
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