Thread Number: 88782
/ Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Siemens or Schulthess - Opinions wanted
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|Post# 1133214   11/11/2021 at 06:45 (198 days old) by tomwasher81 (Scotland)  || |
First time post here but I have been following the forums for a while.
I'm looking to gather some opinions about which brand of washing machine to buy. I currently have a Miele WCR870WPS which is three years old. Iím in Scotland UK, and we have very soft water where I live.
Since I bought it, it's had a reoccurring software bug that keeps coming up and screwing all the machine up. I'm on my 5th engineer visit in 2 years and have had the software reset several times, new logic boards installed, and nothing seems to work to fix it. And then every 9 months it screws up. Yesterday it decided that a single t-shirt on Cotton 40C Singlewash was going to take 3 hrs 12 minutes.
I havenít been happy with this machine since I bought it. The cycles times are so long (3 hours 12 for more a 3/4 load of cottons 40c; Cottons 60c take longer than Cottons 40c); the rinsing results are very poor without maximum rinse levels, water plus, extra rinse and allergy settings all turned on which of course adds even more time to the cycles.
Some cycles donít reach temperature. Iíve had Cotton Hygiene 90c cycles that the water was barely hitting 30c. Not great when you think you are hygienically cleaning clothes used for toilets and floors.
Also poorly performing interim spins on cycles (like delicate, Dark Wash and Jeans), and thatís if they even have interim spins at all.
I am very aware about correct detergent dosing, I always reduce my detergent by 1/3 for half loads and often only need 50% of the recommended dose otherwise it wonít rinse. It took me 6 months to get my detergent right for towels otherwise they were like carboard and take hours of extra rinsing to get them soft again.
Due this and the software bugs Iíve decided enough is enough and am currently pushing Miele to take the appliance back and refund me.
So long story short I have been doing my research and trying to decide what machine to purchase as a replacement. And I have narrowed it down to Siemens or Schulthess.
For the Siemens I am thinking either the iq500 9kg 1600 rpm WM16XMH9GB or the iQ700 10kg 1600rpm WM16XGH4GB. Both have a 70l drum but the 9kg will have shorter cycle times. The 10kg model allows you to add up to 3 rinses over just 1 on the 9kg model.
I do know a YouTube channel in the UK that has the 10kg Siemens and the same Miele washing machine, and he says the Siemens was far better at rinsing than the Miele and got stains out of clothes that the Miele wouldnít touch.
For Schulthess, it would be a Spirit 540.
The short cycle times appeal to me, plus the ability to set extra rinses, permanent high-water levels for wash and rinse and add up to 4 extra rinses in the settings as well as the antibac cycles.
My cons are that the Schulthess only has a 2-year warranty and is going to be considerably more expensive than the Siemens and I really canít find much information or reviews in the UK about them. I have watched YouTube videos about them and see their cycle times and performance they look decent and solid, but it would be a gamble buying one.
So Iím wondering if anybody has any experience of Schulthess or Siemens machines and what they would recommend? My needs/wants are:
- Short cycle times
- Reaching the temperature set
- Good rinsing and ability to add more water and rinses
Thanks in advance!!
|Post# 1133432 , Reply# 1   11/13/2021 at 15:50 (196 days old) by Miele4life (Reading, UK )  || |
hello there, Iím sorry to hear about your experience with your Miele, they used to be a lot more reliable, my model is 16 years old and still running flawlessly, as for the machines, how about going for the Schulthess, I know the model is not available in the UK but you could somehow try to get someone to ship it to you, also, the 6-paddled drum looks cool too, thatís my suggestion to you :)
|Post# 1133509 , Reply# 2   11/14/2021 at 11:45 (195 days old) by schulthess (Switzerland)  || |
I used to have a Schulthess Spirit XLI and then the V-Zug Adora SLQ as the daily drivers at my parents home. Then I switched to Miele W1 Passion.
My mother, who is using the machine most, would always choose Schulthess or V-Zug over Miele, in fact I will need to get rid off the Miele W1 Passion. Schulthess would be by far our first choice if it only had a Steam Finish program, which is a option we like to use on almost every 2nd cycle. However, people are happy with the easy-ironing solution of Schulthess, it would not wrinkle clothes to much. I will probably replace the Miele by the V-Zug V4000 OptiDos.
- Short cycle times --> Absolutely, even with 2300W heating element, Schulthess is fast with perfect results. There is no need for a 60įC cycle to run longer than 1.5h. Good detergents will work in shorter programs perfectly. If clothe have stains, then of course there is option for a longer and more intense program or just pretreating the stains.
- Reaching the temperature set --> Yes, but not holding in the Express Programs
- Good rinsing and ability to add more water and rinses --> Yes, I used to set 2 rinses with high water level. I think they even have an setting for soft-water regions.
- Reliable --> Yes.
Other advantages of newest Schulthess compared to Miele W1:
- better and faster balancing. Miele has a very bad spinning und balancing pattern and still spins very unbalanced (why then balancing that long, I don't mind unbalanced spins)
- better drum with many small and perfectly punched holes for better rinsing and spinning, less particles and hair left in the clothes compared to honey comb. The small holes in the Miele honey-comb drum are very sharp in fact. Additionally I noticed that the drum is not very resistant to scratches.
- less damage on clothes because of the better drum, shorter cycle times and better water level. The Miele is too harsh on clothes, always a lot of "dust of textile particles" left in the drum and the door after the cycle. Never happened with V-Zug or Schulthess.
- wider port hole, much more convenient to load and unload.
- a more easy filter to clean, they somehow copied V-Zug. Hate placing a baking tray under the Miele to clean the two pumps. I think it is stupid to have to pumps to clean... it is more a marketing gimmick to show that two separate pumps are used.
The Miele feels sturdier and higher quality, however it still has an annoying ticking sound when spinning and a drum design that is inferior to Miele and V-Zug. I like the door at Schulthess, closes very smooth, opening with the button.
The newest Schulthess has a recirculation pump and specific programs designed to get most out of that recirculation. I am not sure how it is used in other programs.
Greetings from Switzerland
|Post# 1133511 , Reply# 3   11/14/2021 at 12:04 (195 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
I have a Siemens IQ500 set and still very happy with it. The models I have seem to have disappeared, some newer models have less options. Mine has 1 - 3 extra rinses as option and the 90Eco programme reaches 75 degrees Celsius, at least the two times I measured.
The IQ700 series might have all the options you want, just check out all the specifications. My Siemens set in total including a stacking kit was less that 1400 euros IIRC.
Here's more about my Siemens set:
|Post# 1133755 , Reply# 4   11/17/2021 at 06:33 (192 days old) by tomwasher81 (Scotland)  || |
Thanks for all the replies and information, I really appreciate it!!
I checked out the latest Siemens machines and they have really dumbed them down. Removed the turbidity and rinse sensors and the ability to change settings after the program has started. Really disappointing considering the prices continue to go up! They do look like they are good at performing and I think they will definitely be on my list for future should I need it.
Re the Schulthess Spirit 540 - They are available in the UK from a company called Wolf Laundry who do commercial laundry but are also able to supply these. They are about a week for delivery and wired for UK 13AMP plug, so no 3500W heating elements sadly but still available.
So I think am 98% certain I'll go for the Schulthess Sprit 540 and just need Miele to take this machine back first!
Thanks for the help everyone! I'll be sure to post some pictures and videos when I receive the new machine.
|Post# 1133783 , Reply# 5   11/17/2021 at 14:04 (192 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
Miele will - with 95% certainty - not take your machine back.
Exchange it for another Miele maybe, but basically never a return.
Especially since you are out of the period of the warranty they are required to provide by law.
You'll have better chances selling it as used.
The Schulthess will most likely be delivered with all heaters installed and just configured to lower wattage.
Reconfiguration to higher heater power should be as simple as re-connecting the heater / reconfiguring the connection and changing a software setting.
I would check with the seller regarding warranty and service availability first.
Would be a shame to end up with a useless machine of that price after 2 years because of a simple problem Like an inlet valve.
As an alternative you might want to check out Electrolux's or SpeedQueen's commercial offerings.
|Post# 1133784 , Reply# 6   11/17/2021 at 14:16 (192 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
With Electrolux, the QWC or the WH6-6 would be a standard footprint and height offering.
Retailing from 2200£ to about 3000£ from a quick research.
Both configurable with 2.4kW total power up to 4.4kW.
The SpeedQueen offering would be the SF3JM or comparable.
That however would be larger than normal and will probably need a special connection.
|Post# 1133809 , Reply# 7   11/17/2021 at 17:21 (191 days old) by Lavamat_jon (-)  || |
I am that one with both the Siemens iQ700 and Miele WCR on YouTube. I used to swear by Miele, but the iQ700 is a much more flexible, far quieter and better performing machine. Most loads are clean using Mixed Load in an hour, if more heavily soiled then I use Cottons VarioSpeed which averages around 1.30-1.40 depending on temperature. Even heavily soiled kitchen whites come out spotless on variospeed. The darks, delicate and easy care cycles also perform much better too and can all be done in around an hour
The rinsing and spinning performance is surprisingly much better than the W1, the dryer takes around ten mins quicker despite being the same speed as the Miele (the Siemens holds max speed for around 5 mins if not more, whilst the W1 peaks for around 2 mins). the default rinsing/levels on the Siemens seem to rinse better than the W1 with extra rinse and max level operated. The Miele takes much longer to do an average job too - cottons short is 2 hours for 60 and minimum iron is around 1:40 on short which is far too long for what should be a gentle wash. Itís a shame as I used to be Mieles biggest advocate - and still stand by the 2000/3000 series being the best machines they ever made.
I like my Siemens so much so that when it came to replace my mums faithful old W3922 which really had gone through the wars (used 10-15 times a week for 15 years), I didnít hesitate to replace it with a Bosch Series 4. Although lower spec, it still performs as well as the Siemens iq700 although doesnít have as high a capacity or spin. Even that is quieter than the W1, and despite only being a 1400 spin it still extracts as well if not better than her previous Miele 1600.
The rinse and turbidity sensors still are available (I believe they tend to be on iDos models), and you can also change cycle settings once itís started. You can change the temperature and activate/deactivate varioSpeed until load sensing has finished. All other settings (reduced ironing, spin speed, extra rinse/water plus etc) you can alter during the cycle - you can add an extra rinse and water plus up until the final rinse should you wish to do so.
Itís a shame they donít do matching dryers that reverse, but with reverse tumbling being introduced to the iQ500 dryers hopefully theyíll be on the iQ700 range soon. (At least BSH have finally seen sense and added what is a basic prerequisite feature again to high end dryers!)
I hope this helps, I understand the frustrations you have with your W1 and unfortunately I donít think you are alone, which is a shame to see. Hopefully the Miele range will get better again in time.
|Post# 1133813 , Reply# 8   11/17/2021 at 17:44 (191 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))  || |
To contrast that though:
If a short cycle isn't enough, a full load in a current high end BSH at 60C takes at least 3:30h.
Miele does that an hour quicker while reaching the same temperature and using less energy.
Mieles 60C short cycle is 1:50 for partial loads.
That's about 11min longer than 60C with SpeedPerfect on BSH, so not terribly much.
Delicates is 1:09 or 59 respectively.
Darks with short is 1:40h.
Miele can do 5kg with an A class wash in 59min at 60C - 1:15h for the more thorough rinsing.
Not saying that makes them any better than the other.
Just to relativate things.
|Post# 1133817 , Reply# 9   11/17/2021 at 18:19 (191 days old) by Lavamat_jon (-)  || |
The Miele Powerwash cycle is next to useless in honesty, only peaks at max spin before slowing down again and the rinsing is abysmal as it doesnít drain completely between the rinses and also recirculates water from the previous bath onto the load. Mixed Fabrics on BSH does a much better job in an hour, and you can get away with doing larger loads too as it will adapt the spin and rinse profiles to suit. I have found using the single wash option on the Miele even on full loads is a much better alternative to QPW (it will perform a standard fill if more than 1kg is detected), but even then isnít as thorough as the BSH Mixed Wash.
I cant think of any circumstance where you would need the full length cycle of a modern washer, the varioSpeed cottons cycle will wash anything whereas Quick on Miele does not wash as efficiently from my own experience - which is from operating both of these machines daily side by side. Of course neither are as bad as the standard 4 hour cycle on the LG Turbowash.
Cottons short is still 2 hours on Miele for a full load, and that is without factoring in the extra time it adds on for balancing (which W1 is very over sensitive with, often adding 5 mins per spin cycle to balance especially with heavier loads such as towels or jeans), whereas the Siemens will still wash a 10kg load on speed without much difficulty at all as it alters the rinse/spin profiles accordingly without much trouble balancing.
The W1 Delicates wash is a lot harsher than the previous high fill gentle action wash on the previous generations (whoever thought it was a good idea to spin and spray delicates needs their head examining) - the Siemens is a lot more gentler. The darks wash is also only 1:15 on BSH - 1:40 on the Miele again is far too long for a dark cycle IMO.
Efficiency wise, in real life usage the Miele isnít any more or less efficient than Siemens. Once you programme the Miele in to wash and rinse larger loads better you are soon looking at 100l+ and 1.5kWh+.
Just my experience from using both machines side by side for almost two years now. There are pros and cons to both or the machines, but from usability and performance Iím afraid BSH wins on the current market as much as I hate to say it.
|Post# 1133819 , Reply# 10   11/17/2021 at 18:26 (191 days old) by Lavamat_jon (-)  || |
Just to add - the Siemens powerSpeed 59í cycle is not much better than the Miele QPW either - and seems pretty redundant as the Mixed fabrics cycle washes a larger load in the same time but with interim spins and a max speed final spin.
|Post# 1133820 , Reply# 11   11/17/2021 at 18:30 (191 days old) by hotpoint9534 (UK)  || |
Miele seem to be losing their grip. I've read various threads relating to poor programming and even errors that prevent the cycle from operating correctly.
I have to wonder where it all went wrong. Cutbacks in research and design in Germany?
|Post# 1133856 , Reply# 12   11/18/2021 at 05:54 (191 days old) by tomwasher81 (Scotland)  || |
The machine is still under warranty, it came with a 5-years of which there is 2 years left. The original fault was registered in the first 9 months of owning the machine which under UK sales laws indicates itís very likely the machine was sold with the fault in question.
They wouldnít be able to replace it as that model has been out of stock for over a year now, and the next model up is over £2,000. I canít see them giving me a more expensive machine as a replacement and I wouldnít accept a lower spec machine so they would be left with having to refund me or find the same machine.
Iím not sure how comfortable I would feel selling it so someone knowing what I know about it.
Thanks for the recommendations, I have had an AEG/Electrolux 9000 series machine before and did not like it, it went back faulty in the first 30 days as the bearings were squealing already. I do have an AEG 8000 series heat pump dryer and despite the sensors being inaccurate for drying, it is very quick to dry and does a great job on timed cycles.
My Miele machine doesnít wash in those times you quoted. Anything more than Ĺ load of Cottons 40c is 3hrs 12 mins. Cotton 60C is 2hrs 29 mins for any sized load with no reductions and has the stupid spin-rinse profile that just kicks up a load of foam.
I saw that the Siemens machine was 1hr 39 mins for a 60c variospeed cycle, which 50 mins shorter than the Miele short cycle.
The dark wash cycle is pointless as the spin-burst rinsing profile is terrible. I have had dark clothes that stink of wet dog from not being rinsed properly, so I never use that cycle.
Yesterday I tried to wash a single t-shirt on Cotton 40c to stop a stain setting on it and the machine set the cycle time at 3hrs 12mins. If I use single wash it cuts to 59 mins but the rinsing is crap.
The only cycle I would say that rinses well is the Cottons Hygiene but at 3hrs 30 mins itís a long cycle. Short brings it to 2hrs 47mins but it never finishes in that time.
|Post# 1133860 , Reply# 13   11/18/2021 at 07:14 (191 days old) by tomwasher81 (Scotland)  || |
Hey Jon Ė thanks for your reply. Your videos were so helpful! The W1 takes 2hrs 29 for a Cotton 60 short and minimum iron is 2hrs 14 but I wouldnít use them due to the rinsing.
It is a disappointment about Miele, I was always a Miele fan. I am on my second dishwasher which both have been great (despite 3-hour cycle times), and this was my second washing machine, and it really has not lived up to the premium price tag. Bobbled clothes, clothes that smelt like wet dog vomit after a week in a drawer from bad rinsing. I genuinely will never buy a Miele washing machine again.
The powerwash cycle is rubbish as well but then I think all the 59 minute ďpowerwashĒ cycles are. Terrible rinsing, and spin bursts for intermin spins are pointless. The only time I ever use the cycle is when I want to refresh something without detergent.
Itís odd that they donít offer reversing drying on their dryers when almost every other manufacturer does. My AEG dryer does a great job of reversing regularly and the bedding cycle is 3 mins to the right and then 1 minute to the left and repeats for the whole cycle. Bedding never gets tangled up in it.
I am tempted by the Siemens machine; it does look like it performs well and the cycle times that still offer good performance is very appealing. Not to mention that its half the price of the Schulthess machine
Re the Schulthess machine Ė it does come with a 2-year UK warranty with 7 days a week 0800 number to Switzerland for service/questions/problems. The company selling said they would do any repair/warranty visits as they have engineers based in Scotland so I donít think it would be an issue around that.
I did wonder about the higher wattage heaters and am going to ask them if itís possible to configure it for the 3.5kwh, might have to get a little electrical work done to make sure itís safe on my house electrical circuits but would be worth it I think
Hotpoint9534 Ė I wonder the same, they were always the premium brand that everyone raved about: stainless steel outer drums and, scratch resistant enamelled fronts, superior performance and wash action so delicate you can wash a rose in them but that all seems to be days gone by. And now given they have BOL models with plastic tubs made in Poland I donít wonder how long it will be before they make further quality cutbacks.
Sad as I remember how excited I was to get my first Miele washing machine and now I just want rid! We needed a new oven about 6months ago and I didnít even bother with Miele. The way they choose to price certain features like Pyrolytic cleaning, was ridiculous. If I wanted that and a digital temperature selection it was £1800 for an oven. And yet a Bosch or AEG with the same and more features was 1/3 of the price. I went for AEG in the end and itís been a brilliant oven.
|Post# 1133889 , Reply# 14   11/18/2021 at 14:18 (191 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)  || |
I had not heard of Schulthess before this thread. Their offerings look exceptional and I also very much like the configurability and short cycle times. The design is also gorgeous. I'm quite interested to learn more about them and please report on your experience if you do buy one!
I don't suppose they have any North American distribution?
|Post# 1133891 , Reply# 15   11/18/2021 at 14:48 (191 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |
|Post# 1134276 , Reply# 16   11/23/2021 at 05:17 (186 days old) by tomwasher81 (Scotland)  || |
Will do @Hippo! I am sure if you contacted them and asked about it they might be able to put you in touch with someone that can supply them.
@foraloysius - I'm not actually sure, the dryers they make for appartment blocks, that do reverse but I am not sure about the domestic ones. I read on this forum that BSH Group have a lot to do with their dryers so since they don't reverse I guess these might not reverse either. If I find out I'll let you know
|Post# 1134311 , Reply# 17   11/23/2021 at 12:58 (186 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)  || |
@tomwasher81, thank you and looking forward to hearing your impressions!
I watched some YouTube videos of the Spirit 540's cycles and I am impressed with its liberal water use, especially in the main wash, compared to my Miele WXR 860. Reading through the manuals and specs sheets it does seem as though its water consumption is higher by maybe 10-20 liters per cycle on average which I would happily accept to get the same cleaning power with faster cycles and less wear on clothes. The longer I own this machine the more convinced I become that, despite its various strengths, Miele has gone off the deep end of substituting mechanical action for water and heat and it concerns me in terms of long-term wear on the textiles. Unfortunately the US-market Mieles don't have an easily accessible Water Plus option to help address this problem. You can add extra rinsing power in various ways but not increase the water level in the main wash. Where I live water is relatively cheap and electricity is very cheap whereas the Mieles are clearly optimized for European markets with much more expensive utilities.
|Post# 1134314 , Reply# 18   11/23/2021 at 13:30 (186 days old) by Rolls_rapide (.)  || |
Ah, I wonder whether that would be the Lipase enzyme?
I read before in an online document, that if there is too much Lipase enzyme in the formulation, it can cause the garments to reek of wet dog.
The Lipase enzyme apparently continues to work during the drying phase. I suppose items which are not bone-dry could still have enzyme activity.
|Post# 1134382 , Reply# 19   11/24/2021 at 05:24 (185 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)  || |