Thread Number: 88797  /  Tag: Modern Automatic Washers
Which Miele W1?
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Post# 1133515   11/14/2021 at 12:22 (195 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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I am researching compact washers and dryers to replace my unitized Frigidaire laundry center. I much prefer front loaders and unfortunately the way my closet is set up I need to go to a compact set. And I am limited to one 240 volt outlet in the closet. If it weren't for those limitations, I'd get the LG 4000 set or their wash tower but those are too big and won't work.

Originally, I was strongly considering the Miele WXR860 but read through Hippo's thread and that kind of scared me away. Plus, I don't really know how reliable the M Touch is in the long term. Part of me just wants to get their entry model (WXD160) but the lack of prewash and extra rinse options kind of turns me off. I 'think' one might have access to those options through the Miele app but I have read so many horror stories about their app too.

I am also considering their second to the top model, the WXI860. I like the recirculation pump and QuickIntenseWash. I could do without TwinDos and would probably just try to refill the canisters with a different brand detergent...I hate they don't trust Americans enough to allow them to choose what they want and have refillable containers like they have available in Europe. Ugh...

The T1 dryer seems pretty nice and I like you are able to access the condenser to clean it if necessary, unlike Bosch's heat pump dryer.

So I'd love your opinions and advice. Is Miele the way to go or should I strongly consider something else like the Bosch 500 series pair or ???


Post# 1133524 , Reply# 1   11/14/2021 at 14:39 (195 days old) by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

The M Touch and the model down actually have the same control underneath.
So any flaw the M Touch has the other most likely has aswell.


If you were considering LG already, their compact offerings are pretty good aswell.

If there was a vented dryer in place already, there are a few compact vented dryers on offer aswell.

Beko makes the cheapest set - pretty cheap and cheerful.

Asko makes them too and the current Asko line is pretty OK aswell.

The GE set that is on offer is a pure Haier machine and thus pretty similar to the Fisher&Paykel set.
Except the GE can be had with touch!


I would avoid the Bosch dryers.
Reversing is a must on compact dryers.

I would also avoid regular condenser dryers.
Either vented or heat pump.


Post# 1133527 , Reply# 2   11/14/2021 at 15:56 (195 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

The WXI860 looks like the washer I have, except that it has powerwash enabled and mine does not. I have the WWH860 series washer that was introduced in 2019 and haven't had any problems with it.

As for Twin Dos, I use it and also use other detergents by dosing them through the dispenser. Twin Dos detergent is actually kinda nice since you don't have to use that much to get a good clean and the cartridges last for months, plus I buy them when Miele is having a sale and get them a little cheaper that way.


Post# 1133569 , Reply# 3   11/15/2021 at 00:48 (194 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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Thanks for your replies.

Henrik, unfortunately the LG won't work because I don't have an extra power outlet in the closet. I was looking at Beko. They seem nice and have a powerful heater. And the Asko's are nice. For both the Beko and Asko I just wish there were more reviews and videos. There are so many for Miele! And thanks for advising me not to get the Bosch. Have you heard of any issues with the M Touch screen? I heard it's been around many years. Do they hold up against all the dust, heat and moisture you see in a laundry room? It just seems like that would be the first thing to break.

Jerrod, thanks for letting me know you haven't had any issues with your WWH860. And it sounds like you're pretty happy with it. Did you ever have to call for service or get that water inlet error or have issues doing a prewash?

I think I'm pretty set on buying a Miele, I just need to figure out which one.


Post# 1133581 , Reply# 4   11/15/2021 at 02:36 (194 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Miele

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It's as if I wrote Jerrod's post.  I agree with everything he said.  I didn't think I would use the Twin Dos either but turns out I do use it quite a bit. I switch off between that and the dispenser with another favorite laundry detergent.  I dated this last set of cartridges and it was 06/11 when I put them in.  They are just about ready to change.  I'd say I do about 50/50 maybe more Twin Dos vs. other detergents.  I am disappointed in the new app but I'm hopeful it will get fixed.  Good luck trying to fill the Twin Dos dispenser with another detergent.  It's not too easy.  I thought the same thing when I bought mine.  :) 

 

I had the inlet error once the day I got the machine and haven't had one since.  Overall I'm very happy with the performance of this set.  I bought the adapter that turns the one 220 volt into two plugs one for the washer and one for the dryer.  I was a little concerned about the heat pump dryer but I have no issues with that either.  I don't wait hours and hours for loads to dry but it's only two of us so the loads aren't huge either.

 

I stacked mine as well and have the drawer in between which is nice when you are taking clothes out of the dryer.  Overall very happy with mine.  They are about two years old.  No service calls.


Post# 1133611 , Reply# 5   11/15/2021 at 16:40 (194 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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Ralph, thanks for the reply! It's great you like your set and they have been problem free. I would also be getting the outlet adapter for them to plug into. I would stack them and didn't consider the drawer. I'll have to look into that.

I'm glad you mentioned the dryer because that doesn't get talked about too much. I hear it's pretty fast, especially for a heat pump dryer.


Post# 1133653 , Reply# 6   11/16/2021 at 05:03 (193 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Drawer

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David, if you don't have a counter next to the Washer/Dryer the drawer is really nice to fold clothes as they come out.  I have a counter in my laundry room so I didn't need it so much for that I wanted it to store the Miele detergent caps when I thought I would use them.  But in reality I don't use them.  We have soft water and one cap is way too much detergent for a load so instead I store the dryer flacons in there.  What I really like the drawer for though is to catch the rogue dryer ball or socks or things that would fall to the floor as I am taking them out of the dryer.

 

If I remember correctly, I think they also make just a shelf that might save a few inches if you have a height restriction in your laundry closet.


Post# 1133697 , Reply# 7   11/16/2021 at 16:09 (193 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

So far I have never had the water inlet issue that has been talked about. I do a cold prewash from time to time and everything seems to be OK.

The App: I have my phone set up so that I must approve of every app update that arrives so after I heard about the problems with the new version I have not updated the app. I am still on the old version and it works perfectly. I use a Google Android phone so approving an app update might not work on IOS. Not sure.


Post# 1133846 , Reply# 8   11/17/2021 at 23:47 (191 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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Jerrod, I'm glad you never had that water inlet issue.

What cycles do you typically use? Do you know if the washer reaches the set temp during most cycles?


Post# 1133892 , Reply# 9   11/18/2021 at 16:57 (191 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I use Wrinkle Free for some cotton t-shirts and I use a 120F wash for them. At this temperature, there were be a cool-down period at the end of the wash but at 105F there might not be. It seems to depend on the temperature of the water at the end of the wash.

I use table linens/curtains for sheets. I figure sheets are kind of like curtains so I use that.

I use pillows for pillows. When I want a quick rinse I use that program which gives 2 rinses with the last rinse pulling water through the FS dispenser.

I use baby clothes for other cotton loads, underwear, comforters, and even t-shirts if they are dirty because this cycle on mine defaults to 3 rinses so I can get 4 if I want an extra rinse, plus the cycle heats a bit longer in the wash than Wrinkle Free. I enable max rinse level for the comforters which will bring the water 1/3 way up the door glass.

I use sportswear for my gym clothes and also fleece items that I wear in the house during the winter. I use a sports detergent for the gym clothes - and do 3 rinses for them.

I use Darks for any good dark shirts or items and use a detergent for darks.

I use Extra White for white items, but this cycle will also work for colored clothes too. There is only 1 temperature for extra white and that is 140F.

I use sanitize for kitchen towels and other clothes not so much to sanitize them but because the wash temperature is around 170F so that works well for soil marks. I don't use LCB on any items so the higher heat helps with oxygen bleaching.

I use quickintense for normally soiled items. You only get two rinses but there is a lot of water in use especially because it sprays and spins through most of the entire rinses.

If I have one to three items I will select a cotton cycle and then use the single wash option. This will use a small amount of water to wash and rinse the clothes. You can get up to three rinses with the single wash option. It seems similar to the express cycle, except that express will only rinse 2 twice and you are limited to warm or cold water. With the single-wash option the temperatures you can use will depend on the cycle you have selected to run.

I use Dress shirts for dress shirts and also for pants. I will sometimes follow this program with the steam smoothing option which will slowly tumble the items in steam after the wash. The steam helps to smooth wrinkles.

I plugged the machine into a Kill-o-watt meter and watched it through the cycles so that I could tell when the heater was engaged. The heater will heat in all cycles except Normal and will at least heat to the temperature you select then click on and off as needed. It will continue to heat longer on some of them such as baby clothes. It will also hold the count down if necessary in order to heat.

The only cycle that does not heat to the set temperature is Normal. On my machine, the heater runs for the first 13 minutes of the wash and is then never heard from again. If I run hot water to the machine and the water temperature is above the set point then the heater will not turn on at all. On my machine, the spin speeds for Normal are 1600rpm, or hold, or no spin. I don't want to spin every load that fast plus I need better heating so I never use Normal. Normal will also use slightly less water in each fill than other cycles even if the max rinse level is turned on. I figure this is the energy star rating cycle so this is what you can expect to get from it.

There is another thread on this forum that has a spreadsheet of the programs and their temperatures and options so you can check that out. I think the thread is by Steven. If you want more information go to the Miele website and download the user manual for the machines you are interested in.


Post# 1133893 , Reply# 10   11/18/2021 at 17:36 (191 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Wow, thanks Jerrod!

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You have been extremely helpful! I never would have thought to use the table linen program for sheets.

I was just looking at my down pillows today when I was changing my sheets and they could use a wash. Not sure if your pillows are down or not but I was wondering how long down pillows would take to dry in the T1.

I have read through the manuals for both the washer and dryer several times. I am about ready to pull the trigger and order these and am much looking forward to having a good washer for a change! Thanks again!


Post# 1133960 , Reply# 11   11/19/2021 at 15:45 (190 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

There is a down cycle and one for pillows. I did wash an old set of down pillows but was not sure what cycle would be best. I choose the one for down, but perhaps the pillows would have been better since I think it starts with a spin to help remove trapped air. Anyway, the pillows washed ok.

I don't have a T1 dyer and instead, have a vented natural gas model. I dried the pillows on low since you don't want high heat on down and IIRC it took several runs to get the pillows dry. I would give yourself an entire day or at least an afternoon.


Post# 1134035 , Reply# 12   11/20/2021 at 10:39 (189 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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Thanks everyone and especially Jerrod for your help! I am very excited to announce I ordered the WXR860/TXR860 set yesterday! They are scheduled to be installed on December 4th which can't come soon enough! Unfortunately I had to get the regular stacking kit as the others were out of stock. I also ordered the UltraPhase sensitive detergents since we don't like scents on our finished laundry.

Post# 1134039 , Reply# 13   11/20/2021 at 12:24 (189 days old) by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Pillows

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I did our down pillows and dried them in the T1 dryer.  Honestly, I don't remember exactly how long it took to dry them completely but I know I was surprised at how quickly they dried.  I want to say maybe two runs of about an hour each.  

 

Most things dry fairly quickly and what I really like is they don't come out feeling like they have been baked.  There have been many posts here about Heat Pump dryers and I think feelings are generally mixed across members.  I happen to be one of them who is happy with the heat pump dryer.  I have read posts here where some people say normal loads take hours to dry and that has never been my experience.


Post# 1134044 , Reply# 14   11/20/2021 at 12:58 (189 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Ralph!

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That's great to know the T1 works so well for you! I'm sure I will like the dryer very much. Across the internet, it is mostly very well regarded.

My current dryer would take at least 4 or 5 hours to get my pillows dry. I previously washed and dried two king-sized pillows in one load and am not sure if you can fit two in the Mieles.


Post# 1134261 , Reply# 15   11/23/2021 at 00:10 (186 days old) by Moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

In our house we do pillows every 6 months or try to anyway. The dryer has a pillows cycle. It defaults to a timed dry of 1.5 hours per run and does significantly more reverse tumbles than the other cycles. This helps redistribute the down/feathers so they dry better. It usually takes three cycles to get them bone dry. Or closer to 2.5 cycles. Sometimes I will do two and hang them up afterwards for half a day to make sure. Usually I just do three runs to be 100% certain they are dry. You will know as they will poof up really nice like they were new. The kids all know when theirs have been washed.

All the pillows are queen size in this house, bought at Costco. Most are pacific brand. I think they are a little light on their filling, but I prefer a stiff pillow. My kids like them.

I always wash and dry at least two pillows. This keeps the washer balanced and they fluff against each other when drying and this helps to keep the down redistributed.

All of the models have an lcd/capacitive touch display. The WXR models just have a full size touch lcd vs a single line with a bunch of capacitive buttons. It should hold up just fine. Their commercial models have had larger displays for a long time.

The larger lcd on the wxr models allows for “favorite” programs to be saved. Something not possible on the lower models. They are essentially modifications of the built-in programs that you can put your own name on.

For example:
If you normally wash cloth diapers it would be nice to have a pre-wash, followed by the baby clothes cycle at 140F or sanitize at 170F with extra rinse, allergen and water plus all enabled. This gives you longer heat holding times, extra rinse and extra water. Save it all into a one touch button so you don’t have to use the app to get all of those things at once. In the lower models you can only select ONE extra per cycle directly on the washer. To select more than one you have to use the mobile start program and then configure everything in the app and then start it from the app. So possibly a time saver with favorites on the wxr model.

The rest of the internal parts are the same on the WXI-860 and WXR860. On the LCD display and it’s cabling/plastics are different. The same is true for the top two dryer models. They are functionally the same except for the lcd display and the extra programming flexibility.



Post# 1134265 , Reply# 16   11/23/2021 at 00:22 (186 days old) by Moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

As for refilling the factory TwinDos cartridges with your own detergent or oxygen bleach (no chlorine bleach allowed) here are some pictures. Make sense?



  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 6         View Full Size
Post# 1134315 , Reply# 17   11/23/2021 at 13:43 (186 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

@littlegreeny
Congratulations on ordering the set! I think you will like the configurability and options quite a lot!

@Jerrod_Six
That is a very interesting breakdown of your cycle uses, thank you.

I've also tried Table Linens/Drapes for sheets. It surely cleans them quickly and thoroughly but with extremely intense agitation, too much for synthetics in my opinion. Once I finally get rid of all the synthetic sheets and replace them with cotton I think I'll start using it for sheets again.

It sounds like you use QuickIntenseWash more than I do - I've only used it when I'm really in a rush with something dirty, not normally. Do you just like the speed of it?

Great notes about the heater running. I need to get my machine on a meter too!

@chachp
I've washed Queen pillows in the Pillows cycle on my Miele and they dry in well less than an hour on low heat in my vented Maytag, obviously condenser dryer performance will be different. A note however, for those looking to wash pillows in 1600 RPM Miele machines: the cycle is restricted to 1200 RPM. Thinking that more extraction would be better, I followed the cycle with a 1600 RPM Drain/Spin. Unfortunately this pressed the pillows so hard into the lift bars that it rearranged the fill. I'd recommend sticking to the recommended 1200 RPM spin (or whatever Wash Assistant suggests) to prevent this.


Post# 1134326 , Reply# 18   11/23/2021 at 15:57 (186 days old) by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

Hippo

I like to have 3 rinses with spins, so I will only use QuickIntense on light soil loads and then I use the soil indicator and set it to light soil. For regular cotton loads, I use Baby clothes or wrinkle-free. Why wrinkle-free? Because you can wash cotton in that cycle too and you can get a 120F and I think 140F wash out of it too. The heater holding times are not as long as baby clothes but the temperature will at least be close. There is a good amount of water in the rinses too.

Glad you like table linens but yeah it is best for linen or cotton, although I do wash my poly tablecloths using it and they have been holding up well.


Post# 1134328 , Reply# 19   11/23/2021 at 16:24 (186 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

@Jerrod_Six
I also use three rinses with spins for just about everything except towels where the Ultra White cycle seems to do fine with two and its fast interstitial spins.

Not sure on your machine, but for mine the manual specifies that Baby Clothes has two rinses but it actually has three by default. Took me a while to realize and I was unnecessarily doing four rinses for a bit as I'd been adding an Extra Rinse. It was nice when I figured it out though since it cut the cycle time and also gave the option of a cycle with four high level rinses with high speed spins between them in case of needing to rinse something extremely thoroughly.

Playing with the Wash Assistant on my machine it recommends Wrinkle Free for a very wide variety of items, almost as if it is Miele's intended (non-regulatory) default cycle. Unfortunately it uses so little water in the main wash that I find its usefulness very limited. If there are sweatshirts or sweatpants in the load or if the load is even close to full the laundry will absorb so much of the wash water that the recirculation pump can be heard running dry throughout the cycle with no water at the bottom of the drum. Perhaps this reduced water programming is new to the latest generation machines in the march towards lower and lower consumption, but unfortunately I don't find that cycle useful unless combined with AllergyWash which raises the water levels.


Post# 1134333 , Reply# 20   11/23/2021 at 17:21 (186 days old) by appnut (TX)        

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Jerrod, a man after my own heart lol. Use a cycle that best suits what your idea of how a load should be washed (laundry or dishes) instead of what the cycle is labeled for the intended purpose!!!!!

Post# 1134335 , Reply# 21   11/23/2021 at 17:42 (186 days old) by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Everyone!

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I really appreciate all the responses and everyone's fantastic tips!

One of the main reasons why I got the WXR was the ability to save favorites and am looking forward to using that feature. I'll have to try the different default cycles/options and see what I like best for regular clothes like t-shirts and underwear.

And thanks Matt for showing how you refill the TwinDos cartridges and describing how you do pillows. You have been very helpful here and on houzz (if you happen to be luna123456).

The Mieles will be a very welcome addition to my home after living with a very crappy Frigidaire unitized set for much longer than I care to admit.


Post# 1134339 , Reply# 22   11/23/2021 at 18:01 (185 days old) by Hippo (Oregon)        

@littlegreeny
The ability to save favorites is fantastic on the WXR 860! You can even save specific stain options to a favorite. Its both useful and fun to have your most-used customized cycles easily accessible and there is something very satisfying about having your chosen name displayed for the cycle. I only wish I could save more than 12!


Post# 1135370 , Reply# 23   12/5/2021 at 15:17 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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My new set is up and running. The washer is great but not loving the dryer. It's leaving a strong plasticy/machine shop "new" smell on finished laundry. Anyone know how long it takes for that smell to dissipate?

Post# 1135420 , Reply# 24   12/6/2021 at 03:04 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Plastic smell

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I don't remember that with mine but it seems I had to run an initial procedure for the washer and dryer.  I have noticed the same with the dryer where they seem a little damp when you open the door and in no time they feel dry.  I don't know why that happens but I've heard it before.  Sometimes I close the dryer and let it run again for a few minutes then they don't feel damp like that.

 

I always run mine on delicate (press the delicate button not the delicate cycle) because I've always felt its easier on clothes.  I don't like a really hot dryer.  The one amazing thing I noticed was when I put sheets in the dryer they would roll into a ball and run forever to dry through that middle clump.  Then I discovered the Bed Linens cycle.  I have no idea what it does but the sheets don't ball up and come out real nice.


Post# 1135437 , Reply# 25   12/6/2021 at 08:50 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Ralph

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Thank you for responding! The "new" smell is still there but getting better.

I haven't tried the delicate option (it's listed as gentle on mine), so I'll try that. And I'm curious, when you dry your sheets, do you put the the whole set of sheets in the dryer? And do you use the delicate option for those too? Before I got my Miele, I would always dry the fitted sheet first by itself and then the flat sheet with the pillowcases. That would prevent them from balling up and would also decrease the amount of wrinkling.

I tried drying the whole set in one cycle on the Miele and thought they were pretty wrinkled. I had better luck with drying them separately. And the bedding cycle does a lot of reverse tumbles which prevents everything from balling up.



Post# 1135441 , Reply# 26   12/6/2021 at 09:57 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
David,

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In my old dryer I did them separately because they balled up so badly.  When I got the new one I tried the Flat and Fitted at the same time and they were balled up so I was doing them separately until I discovered the Bed Linens cycle.  Now, I do the Flat and Fitted at the same time, then do all the pillow cases ( we have a number of them ) separately in the Bed Linens cycle.  I do not use the Delicate on those.  Ours are King size if that matters.  I also have three wool dryer balls that I use in every load not sure those matter but I'm not a fan of Fabric Softener so I use those instead.

 


Post# 1135503 , Reply# 27   12/7/2021 at 00:25 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

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I washed sheets today and noticed you can't select the gentle option on the bed linens cycle. I tried the wrinkle free with gentle enabled and it worked really well. I did the fitted and top sheets separately and each took only about 20 minutes. I didn't tumble dry the pillowcases and instead hung up them up because I was worried about that "new" smell.

I was told by someone outside this site that condenser and heat pump dryers always leave the smell I am describing on finished laundry. Is that true?


Post# 1135506 , Reply# 28   12/7/2021 at 01:48 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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My AEG Lavatherm condenser dryer that was low use when "new to me" doesn't leave an objectionable smell on laundry. But there is sort of a scent, cannot describe it however.

One thing have noticed when using vented dryer things retain whatever scent from laundry products (detergent, fabric softener, etc...). Things dried in Lavatherm emerge with almost nil scent remaining. This is bothers one as certain scents one likes such as Ariel Alpine Fresh....


Post# 1135507 , Reply# 29   12/7/2021 at 02:05 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Smell..

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My clothes don't have any kind of smell when I take them out other than what comes from whatever flacon I have in.  I have dried clothes without the flacon and I don't notice any kind of smell.


Post# 1135508 , Reply# 30   12/7/2021 at 03:12 by Logixx (Germany)        

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I, too, can't confirm what Adam said on FB about all condensing dryers leaving a smell on clothes. Mine never did. You might have to experiment with softeners/scent beads to find the ones that will "survive" the dryer. Although, given the low temps on some of these cycles like Bed Linen, I suppose that shouldn't be much of a problem.

About that cycle: someone on YouTube tried it when it first came out. He had his T1 set to cool down to 104F and the cooling cycle never even had to come on. That's probably the reason you can't select Low Temp.


Post# 1135511 , Reply# 31   12/7/2021 at 06:04 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

That new smell unfortunately takes a bit to come out.
The dryer dosen't get very hot, so that period where the heat drives of any residues takes longer.

On the topic of the bedding cycle: One thing I realized at least on mine is that it is the only cycle with a true integrated cool down cycle.
I only realised that recently: It cuts the heat pump and jumps to 5 min with the cooling fan on. I think the reason is that the regular cool down with the rotating animation on the 7 segment display can't reverse. While still in cycle, the bedding cycle keeps reversing even during that cool down.
I can say though that it really dosen't get hot either. Though that is the one cycle I tend to select extra dry on.


Post# 1135516 , Reply# 32   12/7/2021 at 09:03 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks for the replies!

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I'm really happy to learn the smell from the dryer isn't permanent. It does reverse tumble a lot on the bed linen cycle. It also reverses on the normal cycle, but not nearly as much. I didn't watch it during the wrinkle free to see if it reversed. I will say it's pretty fast and finishes before the next load is done in the washer.

There were a few hiccups (getting the wifi/app setup complete and the dryer off gassing) and one load I must have used too much detergent that resulted in me running a total of 9 rinses but overall I am very pleased with the set.


Post# 1135571 , Reply# 33   12/7/2021 at 21:02 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

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May have things muddled, but seem to recall reading something ages ago that basically all laundry comes from condenser dryers slightly moist. Remaining moisture is carried off moments after things are taken from dryer, shaken out and folded.

May have stumbled across this from someplace explaining difference between vented and condenser dryers.

From one's limited use of the Lavatherm things don't emerge bone dry as say from Whirlpool or any other vented dryer. Warmish yes, but still with a tinge of moisture. After taking things out they finish off rather quickly once out in air.



Post# 1135573 , Reply# 34   12/7/2021 at 22:40 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

To get that bone dry feeling you do have to overdry in condensers, yes.

Things do finish out just by shaking out for the most part, yes.


Heat pump dryers however have the benefit of being abled to drop relative moisture content below ambient.

The amount of moisture in the process air is dependent on how cold the air gets in the process.
The lower it gets, the less moisture the air can hold.

A vented dryer always has room air to work with, so the air in the laundry at the end of the cycle has the moisture content of the room the dryer is in.
Thus laundry mostly feels as dry as it actually is.

A normal condenser could theoretically only get as cold as room temp but in reality will always be quite a bit warmer than ambient.
So the air inside the laundry will contain more moisture by weight than the ambient air.
Thus the laundry feels moist even though the fabric itself is dry.
As soon as you exchange the air with room air, the fades away and the clothing feels as dry as it is.

A heat pump dryer can drop the relative moisture in the air really low since the cold side of the heat pump can get quite a bit below ambient.
But to take advantage of that, you'd have to really overdry the laundry.


Post# 1135574 , Reply# 35   12/7/2021 at 22:46 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
On the topic of Mieles rinsing

Mieles never were amazing at rinsing. Not bad, just not outstanding.
Especially if you overdose they can take quite a bit of work to get to an acceptable rinse result.

I do find however that the higher water levels aren't needed on most loads.
All Mieles I used so far from the Novotronics up to the W1s only needed more water if a load was especially bulky or otherwise "special".

I can't really explain it by any reasoning, but they appear to be very efficient in rinsing while not being actually very good at it.
I like to describe their rinsing as "optimised". Does a fine jobs in most situations while being very frugal.


Post# 1135577 , Reply# 36   12/7/2021 at 23:47 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Service Menu

littlegreeny's profile picture
I entered the service menu where there were all kinds of settings including adjusting the water plus option, turning on an allergy setting, and an option to increase the temperature which I believe is to enable a warm rinse! Can anyone confirm that?

What does the allergy setting do?

And yes, items out of the dryer have a bit of moistness but it's gone by the time the item is hung up or folded. Amazing!


Post# 1135578 , Reply# 37   12/8/2021 at 00:53 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@littlegreeny
The Water Plus option can only be selected in the nearly non-functional app, not on the touchscreen itself unfortunately, notwithstanding the adjustability in Programming Mode.

I believe that Temperature Increase increases the main wash temperature in some cycles by 5C. I suspect that these cycles don’t actually hit temperature to begin with and that the temperature increase setting gets them closer to the selected temperature. I’ve ordered a temperature probe I’m hoping will answer this question definitively. I’ll report when I’ve tested it.

Allergy and AllergyWash do different things. AllergyWash option on cycles seems to intensify the washing and then it adds a steam phase after the main wash and adds extra rinsing, sometimes one or two extra rinses. I haven’t tried the Allergy setting in Programming Mode but I suspect it just adds a standard extra rinse to some cycles.

A lot of clues regarding the functionality of the programming mode can be found in the technical service documentation for a different Miele model here: online.fliphtml5.com/jknmy/kxha/...


Post# 1135615 , Reply# 38   12/8/2021 at 10:50 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
On the topic of Mieles rinsing

"Mieles never were amazing at rinsing. Not bad, just not outstanding.
Especially if you overdose they can take quite a bit of work to get to an acceptable rinse result."

I have to disagree with this statement. There is no better machine than a Miele at rinsing clothes. Most if not all American machines do not spin between rinses, do not completely drain a rinse before next rinse, and duration of each stepped rinse is pathetically short. Miele powders are extreme low suds and excellent at stain removal without the need for additives.

The revamped just released W1's may treat allergen setting differently now than previous models. On the WWF060 Allergen in secondary programming menu will give you an additional rinse in most cycles, and will maintain wash temp without fluctuation. I like to have a total 4 rinses for my laundry, gaining one with Allergen setting in programming mode and another using extra rinse. I do not use max water for rinsing but do use water plus at max amount 3 droplets in display.

No gripes about my machine other than a non functional "prewash" because Miele is pathetic and ignorant on every level when it comes to correcting service issues.


Post# 1135663 , Reply# 39   12/8/2021 at 17:49 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Hippo and Derrick!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I am going to enable the allergy setting to see what it does in my machine and report back.

I used the app today to select and start a load and tried water plus and was very satisfied with the water level in the main wash. It's tempting to enable it for all cycles.

I also noticed American washers skip many intermediate spins and agree it's really important do an extraction between the wash and every rinse. So far I have been satisfied with the rinsing in the Miele, especially compared to my old Frigidaire. I tried the regular and max rinse levels and switched it back to the regular level as I felt it does just fine.


Post# 1135665 , Reply# 40   12/8/2021 at 18:03 by Tomdawg (Des moines)        
On the topic of Miele rinsing

I agree to some degree with henriks statement on Miele rinsing, but I would argue it does better than most American washers that don’t spin/drain all. My wand test pretty much tells me how well a rinse works in a machine. My LG 4370 rinses better in shorter time than Miele, only because I can select a towels cycle. going into the service menu on my Miele W4 selecting allergy option as well as water plus, I’m pretty happy with the results. Miele’s are much slower, but the performance overall is amazing!

Post# 1135681 , Reply# 41   12/8/2021 at 22:42 by Hippo (Oregon)        

If you do change the Water Plus level in settings please report back. I was under the impression it only changed the level when Water Plus was selected in the app. If it ALWAYS activates a higher water level that would be great since I wouldn’t have to use the terrible app.

Post# 1135682 , Reply# 42   12/8/2021 at 23:29 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
"water plus"

Water plus setting works different on W1's. Some people have a menu option in normal settings. Other W1's it is a setting in secondary programming menu. Water plus on some machines it is a water adjustment for wash and rinse water level in 3 increments such as my WWF060. If it is in your normal settings options, details of how it works should be in your manual. Sometimes there is an extra rinse etc when it is used. If confused I'm sorry...water plus is just not the same on each W1 and what it does for your specific machine.

I do know on my WWF060 I set the water plus in secondary programming menu, and it is a permanent setting until changed by user. I use the max setting 3 droplets displayed. Water plus feature for my washer does nothing than increase the water level for wash and rinse for every cycle. Max rinse level setting not related to this feature.


Post# 1135684 , Reply# 43   12/8/2021 at 23:39 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
"water plus"

Miele W1's in the USA...if there is nothing in your manual about water plus does not mean you do not have the feature or option to use it. You need to set it by accessing other programming menu. It will likely be similar to the WWF060 in how it works for every load. Miele eliminates information in our manuals on purpose, and yet a prewash function is in manual but useless. Fact is for those without a working prewash due to error when used, it will NEVER be fixed by Miele. They just don't care.

Post# 1135686 , Reply# 44   12/8/2021 at 23:50 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Hippo

littlegreeny's profile picture
It's super easy to change the water plus level. You should try it.

Post# 1135687 , Reply# 45   12/8/2021 at 23:56 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Water Plus

littlegreeny's profile picture
This is what it looks like in the programming menu on my machine.

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Post# 1135688 , Reply# 46   12/8/2021 at 23:57 by Hippo (Oregon)        

While the WXR 860 WCS USA manual makes no mention of Water Plus and the option is only accessible through the app, Euro market manuals vary in how they describe the Water Plus Level setting.

While it seems that for derrick352’s WWF060 the setting is always active, the Euro market WCR 860 WCS’s (which has M Touch like the WXR 860) manual states “ Water plus level: There are four different water levels which can be selected for the Water plus Extra.” This seems to clearly indicate that for that machine the Water Plus Level setting only matters when Water Plus is selected for a cycle. But then again for the WCR 860 Water Plus can be selected on the touchscreen unlike the US-market WXR 860 where is can only be selected in the app. Hopefully somebody tests this in a reliable manner for the WXR 860 and can report.


Post# 1135689 , Reply# 47   12/9/2021 at 00:00 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@littlegreeny,
Thank you for the image. That’s what it looks like on mine too. Changing it is the easy part, figuring out exactly what it does in interaction with various cycles and options, if anything, is more challenging. I’ll attempt to test to see if I can tell a difference and report if I find anything.


Post# 1135692 , Reply# 48   12/9/2021 at 00:39 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
@littlegreeny

Neat pictures! It appears your water plus setting is like the WWF060 functionally. I suspect it increases water level by increment for both wash and rinse by cycle. Normal menu access is nice I bet.

Post# 1135699 , Reply# 49   12/9/2021 at 03:40 by Logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I really wonder why Miele had to fuss with the menu in the first place. In Europe, Water Plus is in the same options menu like Soak, Extra Rinse etc. It's turned on and off like any other cycle option. The secondary menu is easily accessible by the user; it's where one selects how much water is added (20 to 50 mm).

Post# 1135701 , Reply# 50   12/9/2021 at 04:36 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
20 to 50mm

Alex, are you sure about those numbers?

I only use water plus programmed as extra water when washing pillows and blankets, but every time I do, even with the highest setting, the amount of water it adds to the main wash seems more like 2-5 liters.

It might behave differently on the rinses, but since I always activate the max water level for rinsing aswell, I can't say.



On the topic of rinsing in general:

If the Mieles are so much better than anything else in the US, you are really missing out...


Post# 1135702 , Reply# 51   12/9/2021 at 05:07 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
"I really wonder why Miele had to fuss with the menu in the first place. "

Have no way of being certain, but IIRC Miele USA ran into no end of problems when 30XX, 4XXX machines were introduced to North American market. These were machines with more options under the bonnet via menu selections than previous models.

Largely thanks to internet word got out about said menu options and people began messing about with options that they shouldn't. When changes caused issues or didn't do what customers expected many often couldn't reverse changes. So calls to Miele tech support were made to "diagnose" issue.

As one has frequently stated and many others agree MieleUSA tech support often has a rather interesting attitude that Americans don't understand German appliances. Thus whatever is "wrong" with washer cannot be happening unless owner has done something wrong or shouldn't. In this instance it was fiddling with menu options that perhaps meant for situations outside of USA or something.

Subsequent washer and dryers at least from Miele often eliminated or buried many menu options that easily are found say on European machines.

To be fair IIRC ever since Miele moved over to fully computer controlled washers and dryers (Novotronic?) there were ways to access service menu. Guess since internet was so wide spread then word didn't get out thus you needed a tech manual (or someone with access to same).





www.automaticwasher.org/c...

www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/...

www.automaticwasher.org/cgi-bin/...

Consider also America is on average far more litigious society than many other countries. People here sue for any or every reason even when issues largely are their own fault.



Post# 1135713 , Reply# 52   12/9/2021 at 09:10 by Logixx (Germany)        
Henrik

logixx's profile picture
These are only numbers I've got to quote. They are from a WTH120 combo.

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Post# 1135720 , Reply# 53   12/9/2021 at 09:49 by Stephen (Palm Springs CA USA)        
@Hippo

I have noticed that the app ALWAYS shows Water Plus as active even though I have confirmed I have that option set to Normal and not on.
I don’t think you can trust the app.


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Post# 1135724 , Reply# 54   12/9/2021 at 10:34 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

littlegreeny's profile picture
Someone (Luna?) over on Houzz mentioned USA machines have water plus enabled as a default. I don't know if "Normal" under the water plus settings means it is indeed enabled or not.

Post# 1135732 , Reply# 55   12/9/2021 at 11:00 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Water Plus

chachp's profile picture

 

I am pretty sure on mine I could not set Water Plus to default.  I have to choose it on each load via the app.  For the most part though, I find I don't need the extra water.  I am getting really great results letting the washer pick the water level via the program and load.


Post# 1135735 , Reply# 56   12/9/2021 at 11:26 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

"The secondary menu is easily accessible by the user"

Not here in the USA. To get to hidden secondary programming menu we have to go through a procedure of specific item selection, in order, on the screen to access it itself. Regular "Settings" menu here in the USA water plus does not exist as a setting, although now it seems it is on newer machines as in @littlegreeny's machine.

Lets just refer to settings menu as programming menu and hidden menu secondary programming menu.


Post# 1135736 , Reply# 57   12/9/2021 at 11:30 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
@chachp

Did you access hidden programming menu? It will be there!

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Post# 1135737 , Reply# 58   12/9/2021 at 11:38 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
@littlegreeny

"Someone (Luna?) over on Houzz mentioned USA machines have water plus enabled as a default. I don't know if "Normal" under the water plus settings means it is indeed enabled or not."

exactly! It will appear no matter if on normal or not. Also to further confuse users that have no idea what it is because it's not in normal settings/programming menu period.

It is nice to just have it as set and forget on my WWF060. Just getting to that setting though may challenge some folks.


Post# 1135761 , Reply# 59   12/9/2021 at 16:06 by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

IIRC there was an Energy Star regulation in the early 2000s that stated that if manufactures provided a visible option way to increase the water then that increased amount would be added to the water-energy usage rating. Even if a consumer never used the setting, Energy Star would consider that amount as used because the option was present. So perhaps this is why the water+ option does not easily appear as an option in the USA. Although the max rinse level is there it is still in the settings and only applies to the rinse. Given the above, I consider myself lucky to even get max rinse level.

Post# 1135763 , Reply# 60   12/9/2021 at 16:52 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        

Good point @Jerrod_Six.

Post# 1135781 , Reply# 61   12/10/2021 at 01:01 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks again to Luna!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I found a post over on Houzz where Luna was talking about the plastic/chemical smell from the new dryer. It's from the foam plinth filter! He said it takes about 100 hours of running before the smell goes away. Anyone know how to speed that up? I'm not looking forward to when I'll need to replace that filter and go through this whole ordeal again!

Post# 1135783 , Reply# 62   12/10/2021 at 02:56 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Dryer Smell and Water Plus

chachp's profile picture

 

Dryer Smell - It makes sense that it could be the plinth filter but it's odd.  I didn't have that issue when mine was new.  You might try soaking it for a few minutes in a solution of dish soap and water.  Then squeeze it out and let it dry.  That's how I clean mine when it needs to be done.  Maybe that will speed it up a little.

 

Water Plus - I am interested in knowing why so much chatter about the Water Plus.  I guess my question is why do you think you need to use it?  I get stellar results out of my machine without the Water Plus.  I used it once to see how much water it would use but I really don't see where I have a situation where I need the extra water to get the clothes clean.  I just let the machine do its thing with determining how much water it needs.  




This post was last edited 12/10/2021 at 06:11
Post# 1135799 , Reply# 63   12/10/2021 at 08:44 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Ralph!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I wonder if adding a little baking soda to the soaking solution would help?

I'm VERY happy with the default water levels in the wash portion of the cycle. And I've found the default rinse levels to be good too. I have not made any adjustments to the water levels. I just thought it was interesting that the option was available in the programming menu.


Post# 1135809 , Reply# 64   12/10/2021 at 12:34 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Water plus/Maximum Water level, extra rinses, Sensitive, etc... in some form or another are offered by most European front loaders along with others.

Basically they are meant to allow certain modifications of water levels in wash and or rinse cycles, or adding extra rinse(s) to cope with various wants of a particular customer within limits.

Since these machines are sold all over Europe, North America and elsewhere they must cope with water quality (hardness) that cannot always accurately be predicted.

Water in many areas of USA (such as New York) tends to be far softer than what you'd see in many parts of EU. Soft water can complicate rinsing. Ditto if a home or wherever machine is used has a mechanical water softening system installed.

Miele or others also cannot account for detergents and other products used on wash day. Some things rinse more easily than others. This and or consumer may be prone to using more than they should. Certain households may have one or more members prone to sensitivity regarding detergent or other laundry product residue, thus want things rinsed more.

At least for Miele Water + seems to be for coping with loads that absorb lots of water.

Modern computer controlled washers will only use water levels as programmed within certain parameters. Someone mentioned their washer having so little water during a cycle the recirculating pump was running "dry". Well if washer is programed to give "X" liters of water max for "Y" pounds or kilos of wash, that is what happens. Water Plus moves that needle for two more preset levels in aid of solving that problem.

With machines of old one could simply pour a kettle or so of water down dispenser to raise water levels. Nearly all modern washers have various water protection systems. If levels in tub go above what is programmed machine senses this, believes something is very wrong, aborts cycle and drains water. You can still try that method, but there is no way of knowing where "sweet spot" lies before triggering WPS.

Manual for my older Miele suggests washing less than full loads when doing very absorbent loads such as terry toweling.


Post# 1135817 , Reply# 65   12/10/2021 at 14:27 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
Science.

chachp's profile picture

 

Who ever thunk there would be so much science involved in doing laundry?  


Post# 1135823 , Reply# 66   12/10/2021 at 16:47 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@chachp

While I agree with littlegreeny that water levels are usually good in the WXR 860 I would enjoy the Water Plus option in the following situations:

1. Extremely heavily soiled laundry, like with hydraulic oil or grease. More water really helps dissolve the soils in this situation.

2. For more delicate washing of certain fabrics. The WXR 860 behaves very differently than my previous Miele on the Delicate cycle. It uses barely any water, none visible in the drum, and spins them very quickly so they mostly stick to the drum for a little bit, then fall down, then repeat. The recirculation pump is occasionally active during this. The previous machine used a high fill for Delicates so that the lifter bars would swirl the laundry around but not really lift and drop it. I think that the latter is gentler and more effective and I miss it. If you enable the "Gentle" option in the Delicates cycle it defeats the rapid spinning but doesn't use enough water to let the lifter bars pass under the laundry. Thus I think the Gentle option actually makes the Delicates cycle rougher as there is a lot more lifting and dropping of the laundry and surprisingly aggressive agitation on rinsing. The same comments apply to the Dress Shirts cycle. I have not tested Water Plus from the app yet with the delicates cycle but hopefully it would behave more like my old machine.

More generally I suppose there is some aggravation that Miele has omitted a feature that is quite widespread on their Euro machines on their TOL USA model, which in particular comes at a premium cost for greater customizability via the touchscreen. Although according to Jerrod_Six it might just be due to regulations, sadly.

I played around a little with Water Plus in the programming menu and app a little bit, although not enough yet for a holistic picture. I found that changing the "Water Plus Level" in the programming menu from Normal to three drops had no effect on the wash fill level for empty loads started from the touchscreen for Wrinkle Free and Darks. Selecting the Water Plus option on the app for the Wrinkle Free program did result in a much higher wash water level. The machine started the cycle normally and then several minutes into the cycle increased the water level substantially. I cancelled the test programs before observing rinses. I did not notice a change in the wash water level for the Darks program when selecting Water Plus from the app, although I may not have waited long enough into the cycle if the extra filling is delayed. The app is so slow and glitchy that it makes testing or using it quite annoying, but I will report as I experiment more.


Post# 1135824 , Reply# 67   12/10/2021 at 16:54 by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I have my machine set to the first water drop of water plus, but I actually don't think I need it- just tried it to see what would happen and haven't set it back yet. My machine adds the water after it has determined the load size. The amount added seems to depend on what program cycle you are using. I get a bit of water added when using the Baby Clothes program and a bit more water when using wrinkle-free. I can't tell any difference during the rinses and really can't see that much during the wash - I can just hear it take a bit more. I don't think you want too much water during the wash anyway since that would dilute the tumbling action but I can see how it might come in handy if you regularly wash thick absorbent items.







Post# 1135825 , Reply# 68   12/10/2021 at 17:14 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@Jerrod_Six, exactly which model do you have? Are you saying that you notice increased water levels with a drop added in the programming menu even if you have not selected the Water Plus option in the app?

Post# 1135900 , Reply# 69   12/11/2021 at 14:36 by Moon1234 (Wisconsin)        

Water Plus is somewhat different depending on the model. I have the WWH860 AND the WXI860. Water plus is enabled ALL THE TIME on the WWH860. If it is left at the “normal” setting in the expanded programming menu then no extra water is added to any cycle. If you set water plus to one, two or three drops then wash water is increased in any cycle that honors that extra. It is not possible to disable the water plus option on this model.

On the WXI860 the water plus option is DISABLED by default. It has to be enabled per cycle, each time, if that extra is desired. It will not be remembered even if you have the memory feature enabled. The amount specified in the Water Plus expanded programming menu is what will be used IF the option is added for a cycle. Since water plus is only available when using the app, that is the only way to select it.

So Miele went from one extreme to the other with the model upgrade. I think the WXI860 should remember the water plus setting if the memory option is enabled. Why? When doing a full load of absorbent towels there will be zero free water during the main wash. The recirculating pump will kick on, but there will be no water to circulate UNLESS you enable the water plus option (and for me it needs to be three drops if doing 6-8 large Costco size bath towels).

I personally would rather just have water plus enabled all the time OR have it selectable from the display instead of having to go in the app. For those with the WXR-860 it would be interesting to see if water plus extra can be saved in a favorite.


Post# 1135902 , Reply# 70   12/11/2021 at 15:02 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Interesting

littlegreeny's profile picture
My WXR860 uses the recirculation pump all the time in every cycle and it has never been in a situation where it didn't have enough water to circulate water or pump dry, even with huge loads of towels. And that's without Water Plus enabled.

My new washer is amazing in every way and I'm absolutely 100% satisfied with its performance.




This post was last edited 12/11/2021 at 17:20
Post# 1135964 , Reply# 71   12/11/2021 at 23:43 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
@ littlegreeny

To hasten dissipation of that "new dryer whiff" you could try doing a few loads of rags or maybe things around house that want a wash and or would need drying.

To save wear on your new Miele washer could just do things by hand or something.

Don't think baking soda in a wash load would help with this new dryer scent. Most properties you're wanting from sodium bicarbonate would have been used in wash then gone by subsequent rinsing.


Post# 1135968 , Reply# 72   12/12/2021 at 01:30 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Launderess!

littlegreeny's profile picture
The smell is dissipating with each load of laundry dried and the smell is nearly gone now. I do not plan to soak the plinth filter.

Post# 1136069 , Reply# 73   12/13/2021 at 08:53 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Miele App Question

littlegreeny's profile picture
Has anyone downloaded version 4.2.0 of the app for iPhone? Did anyone have any issues? My current app is version 4.1.1 and the buggy things I see are the washer status always says the washer is in the main wash and the temperature is displaying the wrong units (i.e. when temp is set to 140F, the app says the temp is 140C).

Post# 1136079 , Reply# 74   12/13/2021 at 10:04 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
I did.

chachp's profile picture

 

Seems to be fine.  Mine are set to autoupdate and I noticed the other day it had updated.  You can now get more information on the AutoDos amounts and the other things seem to be working fine for me.  

 

Under General settings there are options for Fahrenheit and Gallons.  Have you checked that?


Post# 1136113 , Reply# 75   12/13/2021 at 15:30 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Ralph!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I updated the app and now the appliance status is showing. I'm also seeing an actual twindos level which is nice. If I change the units from C to F, it will show the temp as 284F instead of 140F. I'm going to change the washer to display the temp as C instead of F and see if the app will show the correct temp.

Post# 1136344 , Reply# 76   12/16/2021 at 16:06 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Intermediate Spins?

littlegreeny's profile picture
One thing I've noticed with my new washer is it seems to have a bit of a hard time balancing mixed loads of towels and low pile bath mats (more of a towel really but texture and density is different than the towels). Anyways, I was washing them on the towels cycle, 120F with an extra rinse. I haven't really watched it go through this cycle before. It was having trouble going into the intermediate spin after the wash was complete. It tried unsuccessfully to spin though I felt it was being a little picky as it seemed to be balanced several times. After about 10 minutes I heard a relay click and then the display said Rinse. To my horror, the Miele skipped the spin! I've watched many cycles of the W1 on youtube and don't recall them ever skipping a spin. And then to further add to my horror, it only rinsed twice even though I had extra rinse selected! It did manage to do an interim spin between the first and second rinse.

So what am I doing wrong here? Should I be washing towels on a different cycle other than towels? I know the wash is pretty short but these towels are just used to dry off clean bodies in my house, so they aren't dirty per se.


Post# 1136347 , Reply# 77   12/16/2021 at 16:22 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        

These have quite well gated OOB targets for different interim spins.

It might be possible that towels trys to run a very high interim spin and thus dosen't allow it.
Or it has a very sensitive setting due to the kind of load.
I don't have any issues with that on my machine with towels on the Cottons cycle, but that's barely comparable.

I don't know how many rinses the cycle is supposed to run normally.
I know mine over here won't add a rinse unless it fails to interim spin twice (usually due to a suds lock).
So not adding another rinse seems correct.


My next idea would be to try to seperate those 2 different kinds of items.

I found at least one type of load with every washer I used so far that just wouldn't work no matter what.

Trying another cycle can never hurt.
I haven't heard much about the US QuickIntense cycle yet.
That would be the cycle I would switch to for a load that needed decent quick cleaning for resistant items if no other cycle would work.
That however isn't the best at spinning either since it keeps balancing windows short.

I'll check the manual and update on what cycle might work.


Post# 1136348 , Reply# 78   12/16/2021 at 16:24 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Towels, bath mats, bath robes, anything "thick and thirsty" especially made from but not limited to terry cloth can be a mine field for h-axis washers. Things like hoodies, sweat pants and other things made from fleece can fall into this are as well.

Watch drum movements as washer tries to balance load/rev up to spin speed. If drum seems to wobble more than it should, pull to one side, etc... those are signs (IMHO) load is slightly or very much OOB. How washer will cope and or deal with things varies by manufacture.

My AEG front loader will slow down drum movements and or try to redistribute load until it senses things are within parameters. Then Whoaa Nellie! It's off to races.

To machine's credit if it revs up to spin and things really are out of balance it will stop, then start whole redistribution process all over again.

You may find it's best to use "towels" setting for those items alone with perhaps wash cloths or other small items. Then doing bath mats on their own, or maybe just with a smaller number of towels (like one or two).

Personally one reason got the Maytag wringer was to cope with bulky and or heavy things like blankets, bath mats, heavy and thick bath robes.. It's either that machine or do them by hand using hand mangle to wring or bunged into spin dryer.


Post# 1136351 , Reply# 79   12/16/2021 at 16:33 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Looking at the table

Depending on cycle times, you might wanna try the Whites or the Baby Clothes cycle.

Both offer full spin speed and similar parameters.
They might have different OOB settings.


Post# 1136373 , Reply# 80   12/16/2021 at 18:25 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Launderess and Henrik!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I ran another but smaller load of towels with the same settings and watched the cycle. It managed to do all the interim spins but they were really short and slow. I haven't figured out the RPMs yet but I'm guessing the interim spins were only 600-800 and lasted less than a minute. The final spin was limited to maybe 800-1000 so the towels were pretty wet and I spun them again at 1600 and I believe it made it up to speed.

I forgot to mention I had the spin set to 1200. My towels haven't been feeling soft and fluffy and I thought maybe it was because of the 1600 spin speed so I've been spinning most loads at 1200. Now I think they felt that way because they haven't been getting properly rinsed.

And I think there's a programming bug with the towels cycle. The manual says it has two rinses. But when you add an extra rinse, the cycle time doesn't increase like the other cycles and it still only does two rinses. I tried selecting extra rinse in the app and it didn't add any extra time either.

Henrik, I'm very curious what table you were referring to? I'd love to see it if it shows interim spin speeds or other information that isn't available in the owners manual.

I think I might need to try using the normal cycle for towels because I really want them rinsed three times like all my other loads. Thanks for suggesting the extra white and baby clothes cycles but they are too intensive for my lightly soiled towels. And the quick intense wash does a really short spin between the wash and first rinse but doesn't spin between the first and second rinse. And you can't select extra rinse either, so that's out.


Post# 1136437 , Reply# 81   12/17/2021 at 08:50 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Table

It's just the cycle table in the manual.

While over here most Miele cycles are unique, there are certain "flags" that indicate which cycle is based on what.

Rinses are one. If it's 2-5 rinses, it's based on Cottons.
If it's 2-3 it's Easy Care.

And Mieles OOB gating is just something known from the Novotronics that I assume has been transferred through the lines by observation.
They usually have 3 levels of sensing. And that can be switched around to their pleasing.



My guess why the higher end machines tend to be more finicky is that these *might* have the true acceleration sensor.

In the service menu (the on accessed via the 5 start button presses after closing the door) there is *usually* setting to choose the balance sensor type.
There are 3 settings I think. One using only tachometric data, one using both tachometric data and the specified sensor and one I don't remember off the top of my head.

The higher end models have the additional sensor for smoother operation.
That might make them more sensitive, mine only has the tachometric sensor has spun almost everything.


Post# 1136466 , Reply# 82   12/17/2021 at 16:28 by Jerrod_Six (South Eastern Pennsylvania, USA)        

I don't know how the towels cycle works on your model but on mine, it is one of the cycles I never use for towels. When my model was released the website described the towel cycle using the terms" great for removing sand" as if it was intended to be used for beach towels. I tried this cycle several times and the reason I didn't care for it is that the interim spins are just too short for me - more like burst spins. Mine did do 3 rinses but the interim spin is so short that I didn't think it would remove enough of the detergent. I wash all of my towels on the baby clothes program.

Also on mine using the baby clothes program, if the spin after the wash is not accomplished, yes it will say rinse, but the time remaining will move up to a time before the wash had actually ended and I will end up getting an extra rinse. Since Baby clothes default to 3 rinses I get four rinses and the rinse added will use the max rinse level for its fill. On my W1, the interim spin at 1200 is the same speed as 1600, only the last spin is higher at 1600 rpm.



Post# 1136475 , Reply# 83   12/17/2021 at 17:54 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Henrik and Jerrod!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I'll need to go back into the service menu. I believe mine had two things selected under the balance sensor. It does seem to be very sensitive to OOB loads.

I'm not going to use the towels cycle any longer for precisely the reason you mention Jerrod, the interim spins are way too short. I think I'll just start using the normal cycle instead. I've used baby clothes a few times and actually saved it under my favorites renaming it to "Cottons Intensive."

Does anyone know what speed the interim spins are supposed to be? I assume they vary depending on the cycle selected, correct?


Post# 1136485 , Reply# 84   12/17/2021 at 19:29 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@littlegreeny

I'm sorry to hear about your issues with the Towels cycle. I have not had much of a chance to use the Towels cycle as I have always gotten excellent results using the Extra White cycle for my full loads of towels. I do understand if you feel that cycle is too long and intense for your needs, however, as it washes for about an hour before the first rinse. The spins are superb however and I have not had balance issues with Extra White. While I rinse most of my loads three times I get perfectly acceptable results (even with our naturally soft water) with the default two rinses for towels with correct detergent dosing.

I have also noticed that the Towels cycle does not extend its time when an extra rinse is selected, however the machine does increase its estimated water consumption. I haven't had the chance to observe cycles with both options to see what it actually does.

I find the OOB management of this machine to be one of its biggest mysteries. On some cycles, particularly Normal, Extra White, and Baby Clothes it seems quite insensitive to imbalance and willing to spin even with a good amount of drum displacement. The Drain/Spin cycle also seems very insensitive and willing to spin just about any load. But some cycles, namely Dress Shirts, are absurdly sensitive to balance. I often wash a small load of about 4-5 button downs and the machine will, every time, attempt to balance for a full 5 minutes per spin (adding 20 minutes total to the cycle) before giving up and spinning "out of balance" even though the resultant drum displacement is far less than would occur in a large Normal cycle without complaint or delay from the machine. You seem to have discovered a similar over-sensitivity in the programming of the towels cycle, unfortunately. I do occasionally find that the machine has rejected the last spin and left a large comforter soaking wet on the pillows cycle, but selecting Drain/Spin has always fixed that. I don't begrudge the machine the latter as much since those are much heavier than a large load of dress shirts.

Many thanks to henene4 for the interesting notes on the balance sensors and cycle logic. Please let me know if you discover anything useful changing your balance sensor settings, littlegreeny.

I think you are on the right track to use Normal with an extra rinse for your towels if you want a good, but not extremely intensive wash, and excellent spinning between rinses. If you want a faster cycle (and aren't using 1600 rpm anyway) you might also give Table Linens / Drapes a try. I wash microfiber towels and 100% cotton sheets with that cycle and it provides a quick cycle time but aggressive cleaning and rinsing action with a high water level in the main wash. The manual says that Table Linens/Drapes has two rinses but I find that it does 3 normally and 4 with extra rinse.

I don't know exactly what the interim spin speed are supposed to be. I know that if I select 0rpm that there will be no intermediate spins, but beyond that I always use the maximum spin speed available and haven't had any issues with stretching or wrinkling.

I agree with you that QuickIntenseWash doesn't rinse well enough for towels. I find that cycle rather puzzling. Miele says it is not for heavily soiled items, but it spends nearly the entire cycle aggressively washing and then just a few minutes rinsing and spinning, clearly to maximize the wash time. It spends longer than the Normal cycle in the wash phase so it would seem that it would be intended for more heavily soiled items. Perhaps the design of the cycle only really makes sense on Euro cold fill models where the very low water level in the main wash and devoting the vast majority of the cycle to washing allows the QuickIntenseWash to hit temp in the shorter time.


Post# 1136489 , Reply# 85   12/17/2021 at 20:13 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Refresh, Intense, Quick...

launderess's profile picture
Pretty much all boil down to same thing with European front loaders one finds. A cycle of about 30 minutes (give or take) where major portion of time is spent washing (rather aggressively IMHO), followed by one or two rinses, then short (but fast) series of final spin cycles.

On my AEG Lavamat the "Refresh" cycle is meant for small loads (< 2 kilos) of things that are lightly soiled, such as being "only worn once".

Find this cycle works well when doing a few jumpers made from microfiber. Machine washes the heck out of them (recirculation jet on entire time), then rinses and spins. If find things want a bit more rinsing reset to "Rinse" only but cancel spin. When cycle is over put set machine for "Short Spin".

At only about thirty mins (give or take incoming water temp), this is one of fastest cycles on my Lavamat. Perfect for when one just has a few things but doesn't want to wait an hour or more for any of other cycles.


Post# 1136490 , Reply# 86   12/17/2021 at 20:16 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
Could short and slow interim spins have anything to do with how machine copes with sudden rush of water? That is more water than pump can manage, so machine slows down extraction speed in order to cope.

Know with my AEG washer when doing very absorbent loads washer will slow down spinning. This and or just stop extraction and do a series of on/off with pump to get out excess water from sump.



Post# 1136508 , Reply# 87   12/17/2021 at 23:32 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@Launderess, your comments are very applicable to Miele’s Express cycle which is intended for lightly soiled laundry only and features a cycle time of 30 minutes or 20 minutes with the “Lightly Soiled” option selected.

QuickIntenseWash is a little stranger. It clocks in at 49 minutes and spends all but the last few in the quite aggressive wash cycle. Over 40 minutes of washing are performed, which is more than Miele’s Normal cycle on this machine. The two rinses and spinning is almost comically compressed into the last few minutes. For the higher water level first rinse the water starts draining nearly immediately after filling stops. The strangeness for me about this cycle is the extreme degree to which Miele prioritizes wash time over rinsing quality and getting a good spin, yet doesn’t market the QuickIntenseWash as for anything more than “moderately” soiled laundry. While ostensibly a 1600rpm spin I’ve never seen the washer hit that on QuickIntenseWash and the duration is so short that the laundry retains more water than it would with a 1200rpm normal spin. One would think that trading off a minute or two of spinning for a significantly longer added drying time doesn’t make much sense for a cycle where speed is the priority.

I would speculate that QuickIntenseWash does make more sense in cold fill markets since prioritizing washing time (along with the very low water level) allows the cycle to reach up to 60C and have effective enzyme and/or oxygen bleaching action from a decent temperature holding time. With USA warm fill the cleaning power of shorter washing durations is significantly enhanced and many cycles are quite a bit shorter reducing the relative benefits of the QuickIntenseWash cycle. While the Normal cycle on this machine is 1:26 (up to 50C) the Cottons cycle on many European market machines can be 2:30 or even over 3 hours long. Other parts of the world are also more likely to hang-dry their laundry which also negates the drying time penalty from the suboptimal final spin performance in QuickIntenseWash.


Post# 1136510 , Reply# 88   12/17/2021 at 23:38 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@littlegreeny, you should make sure your drain hose is not too far down your drain pipe and that it is zip tied to maintain its height. While this machine does have excessive OOB sensitivity on some cycles, a Miele tech told me that many spinning delay issues are caused by backflow/reflux on pumping caused by the drain hose being positioned too near the bottom of the drain pipe. If this is part of your problem there should be related code(s) visible in service mode. Correcting it did help my machine but it still suffers from the ridiculous OOB behavior on the Dress Shirts cycle that I described above.

Post# 1136518 , Reply# 89   12/18/2021 at 07:17 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks Hippo and Launderess!

littlegreeny's profile picture
The default imbalance sensor settings are tacho + EZU which I think I'll just leave alone. I do feel like it's programmed to be more sensitive to OOB issues on certain cycles like towels. Speaking of which, the manual says to use that cycle "for linen or cotton towels used for personal hygiene."

It seems to run best and have the least issues with balancing when you run full loads, especially if it contains heavy or absorbent items.

I also wish the quick intense wash was better at rinsing and extracting. I've been using that cycle set to 140F for my light, thin Ikea kitchen towels and it does a great job getting them clean. I just use less detergent to compensate for the poor rinsing.

The drain hose is properly installed. I made sure to check that when I read about your issues with installation, Hippo.


Post# 1136525 , Reply# 90   12/18/2021 at 10:02 by Logixx (Germany)        
QuickPowerWASH

logixx's profile picture
They don't call it that for nothing. Miele made a fairly big deal out of that cycle when it was first introduced here. We even had flyers in our store.

The idea is to have a cycle that achieves "A Class cleaning performance in under one hour". Previous quick cycles were usually just that - a quick cycle to more or less refresh clothes, without attaining that A Class cleaning rating. I suppose rinsing and spinning were never the primary focus. Basically every manufacturer has since followed and introduced their own 1hrs. cycle, sometimes with similar so-so rinsing and spinning performance.

My "European-cycles" Duet also has a Daily Wash cycle that takes 60 minutes. Each rinse tumbles for three minutes once filled, there are interim spins and the final spin lasts 15 minutes. Washing only lasts for 30 minutes; especially when connected to cold water only, this is hardly enough time to heat to 104F when using the stated capacity of 6KG. It's also only meant to tackle lightly soiled clothes.


Post# 1136535 , Reply# 91   12/18/2021 at 13:12 by henene4 (Emden (Germany))        
Poor rinsing

It is a shame they don't allow an extra rinse to be added.

Though the EU version has been reworked several times, rinsing has been ok to meh depending on load since day one.
I use it only with new clothes or if I need something actually that quickly.

The most current EU version is 49min for loads up to 4kg. That only does one interim spin after the wash. This uses the PowerWash style heating.
In theory, with a load greater that 4kg that should take 59min and run with a normal "deep" fill wash.

If you take off the Short option it takes 1:15 with an additional interim spin after the first rinse, longer final spin and a few more minutes of washing.
The main wash is about 40-55min depending on setting.



The setting "tacho + EZU" should be what incorporates a sensor on one of the PCBs.
Idea is that if cabinet movement is to high it cancels the spin aswell.
Changing that wouldn't be problematic per se, but since you are in warranty, I wouldn't risk it.


Post# 1136541 , Reply# 92   12/18/2021 at 15:20 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@henene4, I have also seen my USA model add the additional time. It makes sense now that you say it is for heavier loads, although I didn't think the loads it was doing that with were so large, maybe a couple pants and shirts. I haven't used the cycle enough to get a great feel for its behavior, however. The extended time for a large wash doesn't seem necessary with hot fill but they probably didn't want to go to the trouble of reprogramming the cycle for hot fill machines.

Do you know what EZU stands for? And does it cancel or delay the spin if the only the cabinet movement is too high? Or drum movement as well?


Post# 1136542 , Reply# 93   12/18/2021 at 15:23 by Hippo (Oregon)        

@henene4, I forgot to mention, there is no short option on any cycle on USA machines. It seems to be the default here due to the hot fill.

Post# 1136561 , Reply# 94   12/18/2021 at 22:01 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
"for linen or cotton towels used for personal hygiene."

One supposes to distingish between other sort of towels, such as microfiber used for various cleaning or other purposes.

"It seems to run best and have the least issues with balancing when you run full loads.."

On average H-axis washing machines have less issues washing, rinsing and spinning when loaded to full capacity. That of course would vary by cycle chosen, but for "normal" cottons or linens it seems to make a difference IMHO.

My older Miele washer is certainly happy doing full loads. Far less problems with balancing and so forth.

Modern AEG washers what one considers a "full" load versus machine's computers is another matter. Times when drum is barely one-half to three-quarters filled will give out load sensing reading of "100%". This is usually with very absorbent things like towels, etc....


Post# 1136572 , Reply# 95   12/18/2021 at 23:13 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        

littlegreeny's profile picture
I ran a huge load of towels tonight on the normal cycle, 140F, 1600 spin with extra rinse and it had absolutely zero issues balancing or spinning and the towels turned out great. It took about twice as long but I had properly washed, rinsed and spun towels. And even with the normal cycle, the door got nice and hot.

The lesson is run full loads when washing towels.


Post# 1136583 , Reply# 96   12/19/2021 at 13:36 by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        

launderess's profile picture
After a while of owning and using your new washer you'll sort out what cycles are best for what. This versus the others which may sound wonderful, but often either are rubbish or just surplus to requirements.

Modern computer controlled front loaders have a vast and bewildering array of cycles. But truth to tell most households find only a handful useful on consistent basis.


Post# 1136640 , Reply# 97   12/20/2021 at 07:16 by chachp (North Little Rock, AR)        
My cycle usage:

chachp's profile picture

 

The cycles I use:

 

Extra White – I use this for our T -Shirts and it does a great job.

 

Sanitary – I use this for hubby’s white socks and all and cleaning towels, dish towels, etc. and always get great results.

 

Sportswear – for our exercise clothes those that are spandex type clothes.

 

Dress Shirts – I use this for all of my casual shirts, think Hawaiian type shirts.  The shirts come out with practically no wrinkles.  I hang dry them.

 

Towels – I used to use this for towels but based on all the discussions here I have modified and am happy with the results.  I have used the Baby Clothes with Extra Water and an Extra Rinse.  My Rinse level is permanently set at the higher level.  Very happy with the towels.

 

Baby Clothes – this has basically replaced my use of Normal which I was using for a number of things.  I have never watched it for a complete cycle so I have no idea what it is doing but I will say given the same temp and same amount of detergent the clothes feel so much softer out of the Baby Clothes cycle.  I don’t know if it uses more water, more rinses, who knows I just know it makes a real difference.  They are very soft but not the kind of soft you get with a fabric softener which I never use just really very soft.

 

I do use the other cycles occasionally depending on what I am doing.  If the washer has a cycle for that item, I will try it and adjust as necessary.  The exceptions so far have been replacing the Towels cycle with the Baby Clothes cycle and replacing Normal with Baby Clothes pretty much.  So, even after two years I am amazed at the versatility of my W1 machine thanks to all those here who have shared their experience and testing results.


Post# 1136703 , Reply# 98   12/20/2021 at 18:49 by littlegreeny (Milwaukee, WI)        
Thanks everyone!

littlegreeny's profile picture
I appreciate everyone's responses and your suggestions. I've been experimenting with the cycles myself and am still deciding whether I like the baby clothes or extra white cycle better for my sheets. I have very oily skin and my sheets are dark gray so they show the oil and it's easy to tell if they're clean. The last few times I used the extra white cycle, 140F, prewash and the allergy setting with success. I have a feeling they'll get cleaner with each subsequent wash as hidden buildup is removed.

Post# 1136970 , Reply# 99   12/23/2021 at 09:36 by derrick352 (United States Of America)        
Technical Service Bulletin

Keep in mind if your machine does not exhibit this issue and receives an "update" with new software... It may be the software that has this issue. Therefore your W1 will now have same problem as some already have. Miele has made NO attempt to stop updating machines with this errant software. New units just introduced also have this issue depending on model. Germany decided to load errant firmware on these new models knowing the software was flawed to begin with.

There should be some type of notice given to dealers and passed down to consumer before purchasing a W1 machine. Do not count on this issue ever getting corrected. Time frame for spring 2022 software to correct issues will make it approx 1 year when Miele became aware of this problem, if not more time than that. How could it take this long is beyond me.


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