Thread Number: 91239
/ Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Kingston Timer Motor Adventures
|[Down to Last]|
|Post# 1157508   8/21/2022 at 05:06 by qsd-dan (West)  || |
So I was rummaging around my spare parts stash trying to organize it better into categories and ran across a couple of bags of NOS timer motors. I was thinking back to a thread on 2/22/2021 that Doug posted trying to find a Kingston timer motor for his Frigidaire 1-18 and found similarities on how different motors functioned internally.
I've been toying with the idea for quite a while about installing a slower timer motor on the 806 mostly for fun and experimentation. I know some people complain about the 10 minute wash cycles being a bit short if one uses the gentle motor speed, and the 2 minute deep rinse cycle being short....even though I find it perfect if the machine is working correctly and loaded properly.
Digging through the stash, I came across a few 2/3 Kingston timer motors (205864) that has the proper external gear (that "dimple" style gear, what's the proper term for it, anyway?) that matches the original 1 minute 205033 timer motor gear in the 204499-2 Kingston timer I currently have (the 204499 Kingston timer uses the same 1 minute motor as the 204499-2 but has a spur external gear rather than the dimple) and worked out the math. Basically, you add 30 seconds for each minute that passes compared to the original 1 minute gear. So 1 minute becomes 1.30, 7 minutes becomes 10.5 minutes, 10 minutes becomes 15 minutes....you get the picture.
So I slapped the 205864 timer motor on and have been using it for a month now. Here's the results:
I usually run the machine at the 7 minute mark for most items which gives me 10.5 minutes of agitation, very close to the original timer motor. For the dog beds and couch covers, I run it at the 8 minute mark (12 minutes) to filter out more hair. For the white bathroom throw rugs, I now run them at the 10 minute mark using the gentle cycle for 15 minutes of agitation broken up in half with a 3 hour soak at 160F temps using oxygen bleach in the middle. The results are the same as the faster agitation at 10 minutes but probably cuts down on wear a bit....even though they're still in perfect shape 9 years and 107 washes later (are you reading this, John ;)
Here's where the fun comes in:
Spray rinse is a GLORIOUS 1.5 minutes long. Very nice when the "warm" rinse button is selected and 90 seconds of 120F water is spray rinsing the clothes.
The deep rinse is 3 minutes long. The deep rinse seems too long for me but there are those here who like to overstuff their washer or use other vintage machines, like GE Filter Flo's and WP/KM belt drive washers, that run a 3 minutes deep rinse cycle.
The final spin time is increased from 5 minutes to 7.5 minutes. I wasn't expecting much of a difference in dryness since the spin speed is remains the same speed but there actually is enough to shave off about 10 minutes in the dryer.
This timer motor can be installed in several machines to manipulate cycle times. I have a couple of spare 712 timers and I noticed they use the same exact 205033 timer motor that's in the 204499-2 Kingstons, so you can use this 2/3 205864 timer motor to increase cycle times in them as well.
Here's a list of 06 through 08 machines this 2/3 timer can be installed in place of the original 1 minute timer for those who want to experiment. I don't have a quick timer guide booklet for the 10-13 series washers but I could look it up on my microfiche slides if one is interested.
106/206/207/208 with the 204454-2 timer
106S/206S/207S/208S with the 204463-1 timer
406/606/608 with the 204476-3 timer
406S/606S/608S with the 204483-1 timer
806 with the 204499-2 timer
407/408 with the 204889-2 timer
407S/408S with the 204895 and 204895-1 timer
107/108 with the 205001 timer
107S/108S with the 205002 timer
If one is willing to crack open the timer motors and swap the external gears, this timer will work with the 1 minute 204663 timer motors with the spur gear.
The picture below from left to right is the original 205033 timer in the 204499-2 Kingston timer of my 806. Middle is the same 205033 timer motor in the 712, and the right picture is the 2/3 205864 timer I installed.
View Full Size
|Post# 1157523 , Reply# 1   8/21/2022 at 10:03 by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)  || |
Dan, this is brilliant! Impressive that you were able to find a slower Kingston timer motor in your stash. By chance I did a search for 5864 in the 1986 Parts guide and sure enough, found that it was only used on a handful of 10 series machines - 310/410/710/810.
I've included those pages from the guide as a future reference for all timers from 1949 through the series 1 1984 12 series machines.
I'm looking forward to swapping the motor out on my A806S!
|Post# 1157537 , Reply# 2   8/21/2022 at 13:52 by RP2813 (Sannazay)  || |
|Post# 1157571 , Reply# 3   8/21/2022 at 19:50 by qsd-dan (West)  || |
"if I can get my hands on a 205864 motor, I can install it on my A712?"
That's correct, it's a direct bolt on with no modifications required to the external gear. Simply remove the 2 screws and 2 leads and install the slower timer motor into the timer body in reverse. As Ben mentioned, the 864 timer motors were only used on a handful of 10 series machines by Maytag so they're a little tricky to come by now that everything is obsoleted. I don't see any on Ebay at the moment. However, I bet they were used by other appliance makers under different part#'s. If anybody knows some cross reference part #'s, let us know. If anyone has a bunch of spare Kingston timer motors on hand, look for ones that have "2/3" stamped on the case or a 5 gear axle arrangement on the cover.
On my "to do" list of experimentations is getting the 712 to do a warm spray rinse. I need to stare at the schematics and see if the spray rinses are controlled through the temperature selector switch or through the timer itself. If it's through the selector switch, it should be an easy workaround. If it's through the timer, it can still be accomplished but will be more involved. One may have to do a white trash version of the 142/700/702 models where there's a separate switch on the console for cold/warm deep rinses, except this will be for spray rinse temps only.
Ben, thanks for the timer and timer motor comparison chart! I have the 70's version that only goes from 1949-1979.
I have a couple of NOS Mallory timer motors and stared at them for a while. I'm not sure how to decode them as far as gear ratios are concerned. I believe all of the Mallory timer motors use only one external gear so that should be helpful. If anyone knows the magical potion to decode these, I should be able to figure out a work around for those as well.
So I was trying to figure out what the 205143 motor gearing was. I don't have that timer motor on hand but do have several NOS timers that contain this motor. The first box I picked up was a 203183-2 timer for an early 806 without permanent press that contains this 205143 timer motor. Some gorilla at the factory installed the timer motor screws. I was barley able to remove one hold down screw and the other was was going to strip so I dug around and found a 203180-1 with screws were easily removed. This is another 1 minute/4 axle timer motor with an external spur gear motor, just like the 204663. I used to have a spare 204663 timer motor but my 906 washer came with a dud one, so that got installed. I don't have a spare 204663 timer motor to compare to the 205143, but I'm guessing the only difference is probably a tooth count of the external spur gears. Everything else seems identical, so an external gear swap with the 205864 timer motor should work in both the 205143 and 204663 timer motors.
|Post# 1157621 , Reply# 4   8/22/2022 at 14:31 by qsd-dan (West)  || |
Have at it:
|Post# 1157641 , Reply# 5   8/22/2022 at 20:24 by RP2813 (Sannazay)  || |
|Post# 1157644 , Reply# 6   8/22/2022 at 21:11 by qsd-dan (West)  || |
|Post# 1157645 , Reply# 7   8/22/2022 at 22:38 by swestoyz (Cedar Falls, IA)  || |
Maytag is using a dedicated cam to call for the cold spray rinses on the 712.
Per the timer chart, cam 2 controls the wash temp, cam 3 controls the rinse temp, cam 4 powers the fill for both wash and rinse, and cam 5 powers the spray rinse.
Cam 5 connects contacts 15 to 5B, effectively bypassing any configuration of the temperature switch and powers the cold side of the water valve. My best guess is the switch of 15 to 5B or 7T is happening internally with a single wire coming out at 5B. Without diving deeper into the timer itself, overriding cam 5 to switch to 7T (like cam 4) instead of 5B for the spray rinse maybe a bit tricky.
|Post# 1157649 , Reply# 8   8/22/2022 at 23:08 by qsd-dan (West)  || |
|Post# 1157653 , Reply# 9   8/23/2022 at 00:01 by maranoman (Des Moines, Iowa)  || |
Another way to look at the A712 cams during the fills is this:
|Post# 1157694 , Reply# 10   8/23/2022 at 20:06 by RP2813 (Sannazay)  || |
As much as I would like a warm spray rinse option, the longer duration from the slower timer with just cold water will still improve on the present situation. My conscience is already bothering me a bit about the increased water use, so without a warm spray I'll still be using less than would be possible with an older model that offers one.
|Post# 1157712 , Reply# 11   8/24/2022 at 02:19 by LowEfficiency (Iowa)  || |
How about using a relay?
SPST-NO form, with a 120VAC coil.
The relay coil is connected across terminals 5B and either AC Line or Neutral (I forget which side the timer switches?).
The relay contacts then connect to terminals 5B and 3.
The basic logic is this:
Any time the cold water *valve* is energized (by any circuit during any cycle for any purpose), the relay then energizes the rinse *circuit* also. (Note valve vs circuit distinction.)
For temperature selections with a warm rinse (H-W or W-W), the spray rinse would then automatically convert to a warm spray rinse. For temperature selections with a cold rinse (H-C, W-C, or C-C), the spray rinse would remain cold.
As a side effect, this also adds a new feature- the ability to select the rinse temp for the permanent press cycle.
(Itís quite late here, so please double check the above logic before making any connections.)
|Post# 1157717 , Reply# 12   8/24/2022 at 07:40 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
It’s always fun to fine-tune some of our favorite machines and the idea of making the cycle just a little bit longer on a Maytag certainly seems like a good idea. Have you ever experimented with putting a 50 cycle pulley on one of your Maytag‘s? I’ve always liked having a full 50 cycle Pulley because it also speeds up the performance and the faster spin is especially nice.
I recently completed the restoration on my 1971 Lady Kenmore, I had done the original restoration on it in 1978 and after over 30 years in my laundry room it needed a complete rebuilding. I sped up the spin speed to around 700 RPMs on this machine by changing the clutch pulley to a smaller one and it really improved the water extraction.
I did notice your comment about how your bathroom rugs have not worn out in your Maytag after nine years of washing. One would not normally expect a washer to be very hard on bathroom rugs, it is sort of horrifying to think that you used over 4500 gallons of water washing those rugs that could have been washed with just 1500 gallons of water in a good front load washer especially considering that most of that water was probably hot. wow.
|Post# 1158217 , Reply# 13   8/29/2022 at 22:03 by RP2813 (Sannazay)  || |
The Kingston timer arrived on Saturday and I installed it yesterday. I watched the water coming out of the drain hose during the new and improved 90-second spray rinse and it was noticeably less sudsy than it used to be by the time the spray ended.
There were a couple of stained items in the inaugural load, and I trust my Neptune FL to remove stains more than I do the 712, but I decided to set the timer for a full 12 minutes (new cycle time = 18 min.) and see if an extended "regular" wash cycle would help. One heaping scoop of Tide Powder and about the same amount of "Blast" powdered bleach (mainly borax). The stains were gone! I also noticed some items were definitely not as damp as usual after the longer final spin. With this new timer, I'll set it to maximum wash time only for "heavy duty" cleaning. I think I can set the dial at the 8 minute mark for normal soil levels.
Both the 712's hot water inlet and the faucet at the adjacent sink have had flow issues for a while. The 712 was down to a dribble from the hot side, and I had stopped using it until I could figure out the problem. The valve was replaced a few years ago and both the Neptune and 712 get their water from shared wye hose spigots off of copper supply lines (house piping is all copper), but the Neptune did not have the same flow issue.
On the test load, I had just a fitted king size sheet that I sometimes use as a comforter cover, and a couple of other items. I selected a warm wash just cuz. When I pulled out the timer knob to start the fill period, I heard a quick "whoosh" and I noticed a faster flow rate into the tub. I switched to hot wash and the water was still pouring out of the flume -- nice and hot -- so for whatever reason, flow from the hot side was back to normal and I added more items to make a full load. I did a second smaller load (warm/warm) and both wash and deep rinse fill flows were good. I don't know what was wrong, but maybe sitting idle for a while did something. That still doesn't explain the sink faucet, which is connected to a different supply line. Regardless, the new timer and restored hot side flow are a win/win.
Thanks again Dan for lining this up for me!
Now I'm really, really hoping we get a ton of rain this coming fall and winter so I can use the 712 with minimal guilt.
|Post# 1158222 , Reply# 14   8/29/2022 at 22:52 by Adam-aussie-vac (Canberra ACT)  || |
To have the 240 V 50 Hz version of that timer motor, so I could make my 712 into a machine that does extra long washes, by the way because previously the machine cycle time was roughly about 30 something minutes how much is it now?
|Post# 1158243 , Reply# 15   8/30/2022 at 06:09 by qsd-dan (West)  || |
"240 V 50 Hz version of that timer motor"
I tried looking it up online but the only info I could dig up was a 240-50hz timer for a 310. Pulled out the microfiche reader and the timer motor you're looking for is a 205865. I can't find one anywhere online but save that search on Ebay. You never know...
Glad to hear the timer motor is working out and the water flow issue has, for the moment, healed itself.
"One heaping scoop of Tide Powder and about the same amount of "Blast" powdered bleach (mainly borax)."
Holy shit, that's a ton of detergent! This is probably where your rinsing issues lie. I think you can achieve a win/win/win end goal of stain removal, proper rinsing, and minimal fabric wear by using less detergent, stopping the machine halfway (6 minutes), and letting the load soak for an hour or so (you'll have to experiment with soak times) rather than compensating by using more detergent and longer agitation times during the wash cycle.
I did experiment using a 50hz pulley 10 years ago and did not like the results. 77 OPM is just WAY, WAY too aggressive for my tastes! I did come up with the idea of using 54 OPM gears with a 50hz pulley to accomplish 67.5 OPM's (sorta proud of that one, it's never been done before on this site or anywhere on the internet) in effort to calm things down while retaining the 756 RPM spin speed. However, even that is a bit too aggressive for my tastes and acts very much like my wringer washers in that:
1. Using full water/full wash loads only. Anything smaller is too aggressive.
2. Agitation much beyond the 8 minute mark causes items to start tangling and the overall fabrics look pretty beat up.
3. I only wash my junk clothes in it due to the extra fabric wear.
Even with only a 4.5 OPM increase over factory (and definitely the 756 RPM spin) the machine loses it sophisticated lady like features of smooth and quiet operation.
|Post# 1158268 , Reply# 16   8/30/2022 at 15:46 by RP2813 (Sannazay)  || |
Dan, not to worry -- I don't use the scoops that Tide provides. I have some old scoops that are about half the size, so even a heaping scoop isn't much more than half the amount of the giant scoops that come in the Costco size Tide boxes these days. That's just P&G wanting to sell more product IMO. I didn't bother to clarify the scoop size in the interest of TMI. I guess I should have gone with my gut. As you might imagine, I use a lot less than that in the Neptune FL.
For soaking, I do sort of the same thing as you recommended. I let it agitate for a couple of minutes, then stop the machine and come back to it later, then set it on the soak cycle which automatically proceeds into the full length wash. I'm impressed with how long the tub full of water remains warm enough to use for the wash cycle.
Adam, not including fill periods, just the longest wash time plus the final spin time totals 25 minutes, so adding the spray and deep rinses gets it to right around 30 minutes total with the slower timer.
|Post# 1158272 , Reply# 17   8/30/2022 at 18:10 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)  || |
Hi Adam, if you want to cycle to be longer you want a 60Hz timer motor, run on 50Hz it will run 15% slower making a 10 minute wash 11 1/2 minutes for example.
Also a 120 volt timer motor can easily be run on 240 volts with a small resistor in series with the timer motor, almost all 240 volt clothes dryers do this in the US, they use the same 120 volt timer that gas dryers use.