Thread Number: 91400  /  Tag: Vintage Automatic Washers
Permanent Press Cooldown That Fills While Agitating
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Post# 1159130   9/9/2022 at 11:31 by chetlaham (United States)        

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I can say I've never seen a washer do this before on video or in person. At 13:22 the washer begins to agitate while filling. Is this normal? Why did Kenmore do this? Is this why the top portion of the agitator does not have fins so the clothes aren't damaged? Thoughts?










Post# 1159131 , Reply# 1   9/9/2022 at 11:40 by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)        

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Yes, my old Kenmore did agitate on slow when filling with cold on PP cooldown. Mine had a Super Roto Swirl and all the fins were down at the bottom. My mother's Kenmore had a straight vain agitator with no side fins either. My present Maytag 511 has fins only on the base too.

Post# 1159134 , Reply# 2   9/9/2022 at 11:56 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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It's a Kenmore variation, Whirlpool never did it AFAIK.  Some Kenmore models with Vari-Flex and RotoFlex agitators also did it.  I don't think the agitator is a direct factor.  Upper fins when present are much smaller than the base so aren't a significant factor on fabric abrasion.


Post# 1159140 , Reply# 3   9/9/2022 at 12:45 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Interesting. Did Kenmore ever give an explanation for agitating while filling? I can't imagine any benefit. Though it is fun to pretend the washer is doing a timed fill ;)

Post# 1159148 , Reply# 4   9/9/2022 at 13:41 by bigalsf (Salt Lake City)        

It's a timing issue based on the water pressure and the cams in the timer (it does this on both WP & KM models). The change was made in the early 60's to give better performance with the process. The timer is still running when it first starts to fill. If it fills before the timer increment is up it will start agitating. If it doesn't it will start agitating while filling until the pressure switch is satisfied. This sequence was done purposely (it's reviewed in the service manuals for belt drive models from the mid-60's forward).n. I'll try to find the info & post it.

Post# 1159149 , Reply# 5   9/9/2022 at 13:44 by bigalsf (Salt Lake City)        

Sorry, I stated that backwards! It starts to fill and agitate first and then stops if the pressure switch is not satisfied until it is, and then starts agitating again.

Oops!


Post# 1159151 , Reply# 6   9/9/2022 at 13:57 by barcoboy (Canada)        
This timer in the video is very inter

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esting as between the 1st and 2nd increments as well as the 3rd and 4th increments of the cool down period, if the pressure switch is not satisfied, the timer only turns through part of its rotation before the motor stops and the fill continues. Once the pressure switch is satisfied, the fill valve shuts off, the motor restarts, and the timer completes its rotation.

Love this washing machine as it was nearly the machine that I grew up with, with the only difference being the water temperature selector had the standard five selections (H-W,H-C,W-W,W-C,C-C) instead of how the selector is on this machine. I like the very audible click a few seconds before the timer intervals change, and interesting how the fourth spray rinse is a bit shorter than the previous three.

I think the machine in the video needs some support under its legs! Not very good for keeping the load in balance.


Post# 1159156 , Reply# 7   9/9/2022 at 15:04 by appnut (TX)        

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The instructions specified to always use full water level for most effective process. (but you know I din't do that) The few times whreby a PP load was smaller than full and I adjusted the water level to correlate to appropriate load size, if pressure switch was fulfilled before that initial "fill" increment advanced, the machine would begin draining again until the timer advanced. At which time, agitation began again for the 2 minute increment until tie to resume draining. Then that process would begin all over again if the 2nd cooldown fill was in order. Also, I can tell you that when Sears began the agitation while filling during the cooldown, not only did it cause the cooling water to be distributed, it also saved a number of water changes. I remember those early Kenmore models without agitation during cooldown, but also every Wirlpool, there were numerous more partial drain and fill water changes to accomplish the full cooldown process.

Maytag did a partial spin drain and then fill but no agitation on their initial commercial laundry Fabric Matics in the early 1970s (college) and then when it began spin drain again, this complete spin phase also included the typical spray rinse timer increment. I know that my mom's 1995/1996 Maytag Dependable Care LAT washer did an agitation after the initial cooldown fill.

The GE FFlo I bought April 1978 did have a partial spin drain and then fill cooldown sequence. The agitation period after this cooldown fill was between 4 & 7 minutes long before the complete spin before dep rinse was done. GE apparently ony offered this on the market for a very short time before they returned to their typical extended spray rinse on PP cycle.


Post# 1159157 , Reply# 8   9/9/2022 at 15:09 by qsd-dan (West)        

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Bob, in your experience, which method worked the best?

Post# 1159164 , Reply# 9   9/9/2022 at 18:46 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Many thanks in advance, I would very much be interested in the service manual's description of the cool down. I never knew Whirlpool ever did this, its really neat to discover something so unique. Also one of those things that kind of validates stuff I've been fantasizing about all along.

Post# 1159166 , Reply# 10   9/9/2022 at 19:04 by chetlaham (United States)        
I Found Another One!

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@16:03- two cool downs!






Clothing wear might not be so bad after all like I originally assumed.


Post# 1159167 , Reply# 11   9/9/2022 at 19:17 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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Double cool down was standard until the concern for water usage came into play, then Perm Press went to a single drain/refill.  Later direct-drives eliminated the drain/refill for a spin-spray.

Early Wash-n-Wear version, the cool down was two increments (4 mins) of repeated (as many as could occur via the timer running during the drains) partial drain/refill with no agitation.


Post# 1159172 , Reply# 12   9/9/2022 at 21:17 by bradfordwhite (West Coast, U.S.)        

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Both Kenmore and Whirlpool belt drives with a sudsaver would agitate with no water in the tub. This was as the pump was slowly sucking the water out of the stationary tub and putting it into the washer.

Post# 1159201 , Reply# 13   9/10/2022 at 07:26 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Were early wash and wear garments washed in hot or warm? I saw on the video about wash-n-wear they had some type of fill setting between hot and warm. Two drains would make sense in hot water, where as I think one would suffice for warm water.



Having the timer run through out and letting the pressure switch cycle is elegant, but I do agree its not worth all the water waste.


Sud Savers- When do you add clothes on models that agitate while returning the suds?


Post# 1159206 , Reply# 14   9/10/2022 at 10:13 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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As has been discusses previously, Permanent Press (REAL perm press, which seems rare nowadays) and wash-and-wear required washing in hot or warm (or medium which was a mix of tap-hot and warm) to relax the fabric and shed wear wrinkles back to the set-in factory-pressed finish.  The cool down and then cold rinse was to prevent compression wrinkles occurring if the relaxed fabric was spun while warm.

To clarify if there's any confusion .. Whirlpool PP cycle absolutely did have a cool down, it just never did the agitate-while-refilling variation that Kenmore had for a while.  WP had a separate Knits cycle for a few years in the 1970s with a single cool down ... basically Gentle with a cool down and 8 mins maximum wash time instead of 6 mins.  The double cool down on PP continued into the late 1970s, maybe a bit longer.  A replacement timer on our 1976 WP LDA7800 was revised to a single cool down on PP vs the original timer being double.

Direct-drives did a single cool down ... until sometime in the 2000s changing to a spin-spray as does a 2003 WP "Gold" DD GSQ9669 that I have.


Post# 1159209 , Reply# 15   9/10/2022 at 12:14 by chetlaham (United States)        

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That makes sense now. As becoming more apparent, I'm relatively new to washers lol, so my mind is still in the 2000s with single cool downs and folks I knew using warm water.


Did GE ever have a half tub drain cool down?


Post# 1159212 , Reply# 16   9/10/2022 at 13:18 by appnut (TX)        
Did GE ever have a half tub drain cool down?

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Chet, didn't you see my post above????

Post# 1159220 , Reply# 17   9/10/2022 at 14:38 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Ok, my apologies, I guess missed this part yesterday:

"The GE FFlo I bought April 1978 did have a partial spin drain and then fill cooldown sequence. The agitation period after this cooldown fill was between 4 & 7 minutes long before the complete spin before dep rinse was done. GE apparently ony offered this on the market for a very short time before they returned to their typical extended spray rinse on PP cycle."

I know how this looks, but I'll do my best to make sure it won't happen again. I am still tunnel visioned with the Kenmore in the vid, lol. I'm so fascinated and thus fixated by any one concept at any one point in time that I lose awareness of everything proceeding it.





Post# 1159228 , Reply# 18   9/10/2022 at 16:15 by appnut (TX)        

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It's all ok. A former member of this site emailed me recently with the coment that I was the only individual he knew of who at one time owned a FFlo with the partial drain and refill/agitation Perm Press cycle that GE offered for 10 minutes lol.

I have to admit that very long agitation following the partial drain and refill cool down seemed excessive and unnessary considering the wash cycle had a maximum of 9 or 10 minutes and then having that very long agitation during the cool down ph


Post# 1159229 , Reply# 19   9/10/2022 at 16:24 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Thanks, I meant not disrespect. :) I could see how I could come across as not taking your posts seriously when they are actually of great value.


Did your machine wait until the pressure switch cutout to stop draining or was it purely timer controlled? Probably not 100% timer controlled as a low water level would have the tub spinning before stopping, so I guess not, but you never know.

GE has always had different/odd cycles compared to their competitors. Sometimes it really made you wonder why.


Post# 1159235 , Reply# 20   9/10/2022 at 17:47 by barcoboy (Canada)        
Second video has some ni

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ce out of balance buzzer trips on the final PP spin.

Post# 1159237 , Reply# 21   9/10/2022 at 18:34 by appnut (TX)        

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Chet, I've had to reflect back 36 years to remember the detail.  But, it would begin spin/drain and when the pressure switch cut out, then water would begin spraying in and at some point not too soon afterward, spinning would stop and the water would continue filling until pressure switch water level was satisfied and cooled agitation would begin.  


Post# 1159239 , Reply# 22   9/10/2022 at 19:02 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Sounds like a classic DD cool down.

The thing to remember is that GE timers tended to be continuous advance, so the timer would have to spend time pausing between each function to take into account the time it took for contacts to open/close in the correct sequence plus in addition that closing the motor drop off contacts, opening the motor drop on contacts, then opening the drop off contacts. That added time to the whole cycle, and if the PP cycle is on a very featured timer, there would have to be more drum space to assure all contacts have opened and closed correctly so that may explain the long agitation during the cool down period.



Post# 1159242 , Reply# 23   9/10/2022 at 19:15 by chetlaham (United States)        

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Edit: Never mind, DDs don't cool down that way. They pause after the pressure switch cuts out, then advance to fill, then agitate once satisfied.


I'm guessing they might have simply re-used the existing busing and wiring scheme from previous models instead of routing the motor through the pressure switch while in the full state. Basically the normal GE FF continuous spray rinse spin but shortened to something like 30 seconds. Then the timer switches contacts as identical to any other rinse, then advances to spin, then rinse, then spin.


Thats my best guess on how they might have done it.


Post# 1159256 , Reply# 24   9/10/2022 at 22:12 by toploadloyalist (San Luis Obispo, CA)        
KM cool-down sequence timeline

All dates are 'circa'.

 

1958 - 1st (timer) increment: alternate high-speed partial drain and fill; 2nd increment: pause (on selected models)

 

1964 - 1st increment: low-speed drain, simultaneous fill and low-speed agitation; 2nd increment: fill only, low-speed agitation when full; 3rd and 4th increments: repeat of 1st and 2nd respective increments

 

1974 - Aforementioned 1964 sequence eliminated the repeat

 

1976 - 1st increment: partial high-speed drain, pause;  2nd increment: fill, high-speed agitation when full (Concurrent with the introduction of the Dual-Action agitator)

 

If you notice in that Canadian KM, the timer moved when it started the agitation after the cool-down filling.


Post# 1159258 , Reply# 25   9/10/2022 at 22:30 by bigalsf (Salt Lake City)        
Cycle Descriptions

I found the information on when the modified cool-down process was introduced. It was 1967. See below....


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Post# 1159297 , Reply# 26   9/11/2022 at 09:39 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

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The original double cool down sequence of four 2-min increments on our 1976 WP Supreme 80:

1st increment = partial drain (to water level reset) and pause for the remainder of the 2 mins

2nd increment = refill, agitate two mins at low speed

3rd increment = partial drain (to water level reset) and pause for the remainder of the 2 mins

4th increment = refill, agitate two mins at low speed

Proceed to full drain, 1st spin, deep rinse, final spin.


The revised single cool down sequence on the new timer was partial drain with pause, refill and agitate (possibly 4 mins instead of 2 to use up the cam space), proceed to full drain, spin, rinse, etc.


This is the Super Wash-n-Wear cycle on a 1963 WP Imperial Mark XII.  It has the Super Wash sequence of prewash, 2-mins soak, partial drain.  Refill for the regular wash period is at 14:04.  Speed shift to low for the last 4 mins of wash (at 22:16).  Cool down sequence (begins at 26:16) of partial drains and refills, no agitation. 





Post# 1159298 , Reply# 27   9/11/2022 at 09:47 by chetlaham (United States)        

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@bigalsf: Do you have the wiring diagram and cycle chart for this cool down?

Post# 1159318 , Reply# 28   9/11/2022 at 13:34 by bigalsf (Salt Lake City)        

Yes, I have one. I'm not at home right now; I'll post it later this afternoon.


Post# 1159340 , Reply# 29   9/11/2022 at 19:28 by Lotsosudz (Sacramento, CA)        
Kenmore Cooldown

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In my opinion if the washer had a waterfall filter, and you were using the Normal cycle, You always got a blast of suds on the startup of rinse. Which always made for a cloudy rinse. But when using the Permanent Press cycle, it flushed it out, so you got an actual nice clear rinse. I always thought with Kenmores, with the neutral drain, and waterfall filters, were never great rinsers, unless you used PP Cycle. The automatic filters were the exception.
David


Post# 1159347 , Reply# 30   9/11/2022 at 20:34 by bigalsf (Salt Lake City)        
Wiring diagram/cycle chart

This is from model LSA9920 (1968). You can see the increments for Drain/Fill & then Fill/Agitate.

All WP & KM washers used this sequence from 1967 until about 1975/76 when it changed to reduce water consumption. At that time WP (& other manufacturers) must have realized the trending change in consumer behavior towards these fabrics, combined with the realization that the Dryer did most of the work getting out the wrinkles (as we've all said), and thus determined that reducing the water consumption would not affect perceived performance. The cycle became more of a "gimmick" selling feature (e.g. which manufacturer wanted to be the first to omit it entirely?).


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Post# 1159353 , Reply# 31   9/11/2022 at 22:18 by chetlaham (United States)        
Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Way cool. As always I love Whirlpool's simplicity and straight forward design. Letting the motor run until the pressure switch drops, starts filling while the timer advances to the next portion.

Post# 1159358 , Reply# 32   9/11/2022 at 23:27 by toploadloyalist (San Luis Obispo, CA)        

Another major difference in 60s-70s Kenmores and Whirlpool Wash 'n' Wear/Permanent Press cycles is their deep rinse agitation speeds. The former agitated on high speed, while the latter agitated on low. 


Post# 1160060 , Reply# 33   9/21/2022 at 11:55 by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers)        
I remember our 1970 Imperial stated in the owners manual

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that during PP Cool down the machine would agitate/drain to keep the clothes moving so that creasing was minimized. That was the whole point of cooling down the wash water in stages.

Post# 1160067 , Reply# 34   9/21/2022 at 14:31 by barcoboy (Canada)        
That brief motor run at 14:03 in the thi

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rd video must have been hard on timer contacts, with the quick on/off cycle of the motor. Almost looks like spin is engaged, but I guess it is just with no water in the tub the agitator moving the clothes which moves the basket.

Post# 1160078 , Reply# 35   9/21/2022 at 19:16 by bradfordwhite (West Coast, U.S.)        

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I still think this whole cycle was just a scam to try and make more cycles. It's only slightly different than running a gentle cycle on cold wash.

We people need THAT drama...


Post# 1160761 , Reply# 36   10/1/2022 at 02:52 by toploadloyalist (San Luis Obispo, CA)        

Did any WP's from between 1963 and 1979 ever drain and fill without pausing before resuming agitation? Also, was the draining in low speed during that era?



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