Thread Number: 92933
/ Tag: Other Home Products or Autos
San Francisco Bay Area phasing out NG furnaces & water heaters by 2029 |
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Post# 1175052   3/17/2023 at 23:45 (396 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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NG water heaters are done by 2027 and the furnaces in 2029
The most disgusting thing is a gas dryer where ones clothing is actually tossed around, coated, and discolored in concentrated NG or LP (propane) exhaust. gross. Progress. CLICK HERE TO GO TO bradfordwhite's LINK
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Post# 1175824 , Reply# 1   3/24/2023 at 02:55 (390 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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"Phased out" is an inaccurate term. Existing natural gas fired water heaters and furnaces may continue to be used indefinitely, until they break down and can no longer be repaired. It's not as if anyone is coming around to demand these things be replaced with electric versions.
I imagine there also may be a bit of a gray market in water heaters and furnaces imported from elsewhere going on in future.
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Post# 1175871 , Reply# 2   3/24/2023 at 17:44 (389 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Also, if I'm not mistaken, in the case of natural gas fueled home heaters, such as in my home, the heat from the burner is sent up into a sort of heat exchange, where it is transferred to recirculating indoor air. So there shouldn't be any contamination of the home air with the byproducts of natural gas combustion. And even those are quite limited.
I figure most gas fueled clothes dryers do not use such a heat exchange system, as all the fumes are typically expelled from the home via a duct to the outdoors (as is the case here). This is followed by an infusion of fresh air through the dryer, which should flush out any contaminants from the fabrics by the time the process is completed.
At least that's my understanding. |
Post# 1175976 , Reply# 3   3/25/2023 at 08:06 (389 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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In the California bay area.
This is a good start. Water heaters and furnaces. Use a lot of gas, so this is one of the biggest polluters that can be controlled over time. They are probably not going to worry about gas stoves because it’s a very personal thing to a lot of people, even though they also cause problems, and gas dryers burn much cleaner than Ranges and again it’s a pretty small user of natural gas. Gas dryers are so efficient because there is no heat exchanger 100% of the heat you pay for you actually dries your clothing . Gas water heaters are typically only about 70% efficient. The risk going up the flu, gas furnaces can be anywhere from 80 to 95% efficient In a mild climate like the bay area. Heat pumps work extremely well and are cheaper to run even at your high electric rates. Heat pump water heaters are also very efficient and economical to operate and long lived. John |
Post# 1175993 , Reply# 4   3/25/2023 at 09:50 (389 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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High efficiency boilers overhere are 104 - 107% efficient.
allheating.nl/hr-ketel/...
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Post# 1175999 , Reply# 6   3/25/2023 at 10:40 (389 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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Hi Lewis, must be a different rating system that’s for sure I do not understand how any system can be over 100% efficient.
It would have to be pulling energy out of the air and turning it into heat, lol. This seems like the same problem with comparing energy efficiency ratings on US versus European refrigerators, etc. also, there are always different ways to rate things. As the old saying goes, you can prove anything with statistics. John |
Post# 1176001 , Reply# 7   3/25/2023 at 10:49 (389 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1176008 , Reply# 9   3/25/2023 at 11:25 (389 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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Post# 1176010 , Reply# 11   3/25/2023 at 11:47 (389 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)   |   | |
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I agree with your first point about thermal energy. So maybe you are right. But I understood that the condensation system works a bit like a heatpump. I can’t tell you what the outgoing temperature of the fumes is, but I do know that the exhaust pipe is plastic and the condensation pipe that drains the condensation to the sewer is cold.
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Post# 1176012 , Reply# 12   3/25/2023 at 11:59 (389 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Post# 1176015 , Reply# 13   3/25/2023 at 12:20 (389 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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In this neck of the woods, Only the larger cities have Natural Gas. The outskirts of where the pipelines are rely on Propane, like I do, although most are actually heated by oil. Because Electricity is prohibitively expensive here, Heat Pumps are a much economical way to use electricity and cut down on those of us in this state that rely on gas and oil. I have one estimate but waiting for additional rebates to be announced.
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Post# 1176024 , Reply# 14   3/25/2023 at 13:25 (389 days old) by qsd-dan (West)   |   | |
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Post# 1176026 , Reply# 15   3/25/2023 at 13:52 (389 days old) by wayupnorth (On a lake between Bangor and Bar Harbor, Maine)   |   | |
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People I know that have installed them say they heat and cool great and dont cost a fortune in electricity. The one I got a quote on supposedly will work down to -15. An article in the local paper said in this area, you are better off to use your central heating when temps go teens or below or it will kill your electric bill with the resistance electric heating.
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Post# 1177482 , Reply# 16   4/7/2023 at 20:37 (375 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Just need one clarification here.
When you say the furnace will work down to -15... is that Fahrenheit or Celsius? Because there's something like a 32% difference between those two energy measuring systems.
I would like to assume -15 means Celsius, because -15 Fahrenheit would be much much colder. (32F = 0C)...
That's all.
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Post# 1177640 , Reply# 19   4/9/2023 at 02:30 (374 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)   |   | |
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My experience:
Best money is spent on upping your insulation and windows to SUPER INSULATED status and installing basic inexpensive baseboard or plate/wall heaters. Put the $$ in insulation that will last indef. without maintenance. Electric resistant heat is the BEST because it's: the cheapest to buy, easiest to install, it's silent, 100% efficient, has no moving parts, doesn't require frequent service, very easy to fix if it's ever needed, It won't explode or crack and put out noxious poisonous fumes, easy to control room by room making it very easy to monitor energy use, reliable and doesn't degrade. With solar it's possible to make your own electric on site Its the best. Why settle for something of lesser quality? -------- Oil or gas fired is so expensive to install and you'll always be dependent on some gas supplier to provide the fuel where the prices vary frequently. The fuel is dangerous and poisonous. The equipment frequently needs service and gas heat exchangers only last a few years. And the heat heat pumps are also expensive to install, only work down to a set temperature, they're loud, expensive to fix and frequently need service, you almost have to have a tech to install it because of the chemicals that need to be charged. It's nice that there are some incentives but..... But you know, one has to choose what will work best for their situation. I just worry that sometimes people already have a gas furnace and they are under the impression that they HAVE to re-install another gas furnace when it goes bad. They don't realize there are better options.
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Post# 1177643 , Reply# 20   4/9/2023 at 03:17 (374 days old) by SudsMaster (SF Bay Area, California)   |   | |
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Post# 1177665 , Reply# 22   4/9/2023 at 06:54 (374 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)   |   | |
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It’s going to be a heat pump, hands-down.
Electric resistance he is the most expensive system. You can run and worst for the environment. When you consider the amount of electricity you’re burning and unless you’re 100% off the grid and could generate enough electricity, to use it, which almost no one can, I would not consider resistance electric for your primary heat. Resistance, electric baseboards you have the smell of burning dust often when you fire them up and any system that does not circulate and filter the air remove pollen and humidity and air condition is not a good overall system for a home . You end up with stinky kitchens bedrooms bathrooms without the air ventilation of continuous air movement throughout the house you end up with a lot more dust, pollen, etc. all over the house. These are the same problems you get with baseboard, hot water or radiator heat , no thank you, we’ve moved beyond that years ago. Say hello to the future, and the great indoors, even in climates, where you didn’t formally use air conditioning with the climate change and us aging folks having a whole house heating and cooling system that’s economical to run is really something I would recommend everybody think about. John |