Thread Number: 93358  /  Tag: Modern Dryers
War on appliances
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Post# 1180252   5/10/2023 at 08:02 (349 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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Proposed new rules...

What really rubs me the wrong way is the fact that if they GENUINELY CARED about the environment, they would crack down on planned obsolescence too...You can't crack down on how they operate while completely ignoring planned obsolescence... defeating the entire purpose. I mean, the entire goal is to save the environment, right? How can you have one and not the other? You need both to truly work...Otherwise all of the extra production/resources, energy saved is completely wasted building more and more and people buying more and more... Makes ZERO sense... ZERO!!!


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Post# 1180255 , Reply# 1   5/10/2023 at 08:19 (349 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
war on appliances

I agree with you. It seems that things are just getting worse. We'll see what good will come out of this but I will not hold my breath.

Post# 1180259 , Reply# 2   5/10/2023 at 09:11 (349 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture

3.3 gallons total use? Eh, that's really pushing the limit.

 

That's just one of many fills in the Bitchenaid KDS-18 😁


Post# 1180260 , Reply# 3   5/10/2023 at 09:24 (349 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
3.3 gallons is 12.5 liters, much more than most European dishwashers.

Post# 1180261 , Reply# 4   5/10/2023 at 09:43 (349 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
3.3 gallons

I'd rather use that many gallons when using a dishwasher as opposed to washing dishes by hand which takes much more and is ineffective.

Post# 1180262 , Reply# 5   5/10/2023 at 09:57 (349 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
1 gal each fill and 0.3 gal for a soil flush-purge early in the wash period -- one wash (of 4 to 6 hours duration to insure enzymes dissolve all the food soil), two rinses.  Done!   :-)


Post# 1180263 , Reply# 6   5/10/2023 at 10:08 (349 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        

maytag85's profile picture
There’s been a war on appliances for quite some time, people are now real how realizing how moronic government regulations are. Dishwashers are already efficient enough, we will soon be back to the days where we’ll have to wash dishes by hand which uses more water than using a dishwasher. Solving one problem but creating more is an absolute BRILLIANT way to fix the world’s problems.

Post# 1180265 , Reply# 7   5/10/2023 at 10:27 (349 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
War on appliances ?????

combo52's profile picture
Energy regulation, sure seem to be working even though the population is increasing the US is using less electricity year after year.

There is no evidence that planned obsolescence, etc. has increased appliance build quality is better than it’s ever been. New appliances almost never have any problems when we install them out of the box and they always work.

New appliances only take a fraction of the materials and energy to build as older ones did so even if the life is far shorter. They still are saving energy.

John.


Post# 1180268 , Reply# 8   5/10/2023 at 11:36 (349 days old) by ryner1988 (Indianapolis)        
one wash (of 4 to 6 hours duration

ryner1988's profile picture
Jesus! Who wants to wait that long for a dishwasher cycle to complete? You'd almost have to run it overnight.

Post# 1180269 , Reply# 9   5/10/2023 at 11:48 (349 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Be careful what you wish for...

chetlaham's profile picture

This site has been beating the drums for a decade now. While gaslighting all the short comings. It was only a matter of time.

 

 

I hope an underground market opens up. Technically Amazon/ebay isn't liable for what it sells, you can buy just about anything illegal (like double end cords) no questions asked. People know, the sellers know and the concept is booming in revenue.

 

 

I'd gladly buy some brand new water guzzling appliances listed as "novelty" items. US made, in stock, and with a long warranty. 

 

 

 


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Post# 1180272 , Reply# 10   5/10/2023 at 12:14 (349 days old) by Pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
genuine dishwasher

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I would say this kenmore dishwasher even if its considered vintage today was a genuine cleaning dishwasher no fancy electroniques that control everything even do the model in the first pic has a bit of electroniques

  Photos...       <              >      Photo 1 of 3         View Full Size
Post# 1180276 , Reply# 11   5/10/2023 at 15:43 (349 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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This is your government, you have a voice and can use it to make your position (+ or -) known instantly.  There is a public meeting (you can tune in online) next week about the proposed new standards for washing machines.  In the public comment section you can submit and read letters, comments and questions from Industry and the public.  It's fascinating to see what technical questions the industry are asking, though many of these are clarification of terms and the like.  

 

While these are only proposed standards from the WH to the DOE, the scope and timelines can change dramatically as the process moves forward.  The final approval for standards is still some time away.

 

Youtube wouldn't be full of videos of top-loading washers full-to-the-brim of swirling water if there wasn't a way to easily bypass or defeat the stingy "Normal/Eco" cycles.  I had an LG top-load washer for a while and it was easy to trick the machine into using a full tub of water if I dumped a couple of quarts of water on the load before starting the machine.  Many washers offer options to change the parameters of how the machine performs outside the pre-selected settings assigned to the cycles in the controls.  Most dishwashers can be programmed for heavy-duty, power-scrub, etc. cycles that often add pre-washes and/or extra rinses, extra water heating beyond the default settings.  

 

Longevity of appliance useful life hasn't really changed all that much in all the years Consumer Reports has been surveying their subscribers and their advice for repair/replace decisions is similar to what it was in the 50's.  If you got 10 years of service from an automatic washer back then, you were above the average lifespan.  I know, all of our grandmothers had (insert brand) washer for 20+ years, completely trouble-free, but that is an extreme in the overall statistical modeling. 

 

 

 



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Post# 1180279 , Reply# 12   5/10/2023 at 16:49 (349 days old) by murando531 (Augusta, Georgia - US)        

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I dunno. I agree on one hand because I don't know how much more we can squeeze usage regulations down. From a mechanical and chemical aspect, machines and detergent engineering/formulation has come a LONG way, soil, water, and fabrics have not and most likely never will, until god forbid they invent some kind of fabric that just never gets dirty or stinky, in which case all the fun of appliances and how they work will be extinct. But that's all to say that there's only so far physics can allow for these reductions in energy and water use.

On the other hand, I used to be one of the fools who bawlked at "HE" appliances, both washers and dishwashers, and now I'll proudly admit how wrong I was because I've now owned several of each, and not a one of them was a dud. I've owned four Whirlpool GlobalWash dishwashers, the well-known WP WDT920 that excelled at the scorched foods and peanut butter tests on a thread that still makes the rounds here and there, along with a KitchenAid 104, WP 520 and 710, all essentially same design and all were fantastic in performance and build quality, the 920 and KA obviously being the top contenders on both counts.

I've also owned a BravOasis washer that I still consider the best HE top-load design to date along with it's cousin Fisher & Paykel SmartDrive, and in fact I just recently fully rebuilt an exact MVWB880 identical to the one I owned and it's running beautifully in my laundry room now. I've also had a Whirlpool Duet-Alpha WFW92 front loader for over 5.5 years that has not a single time left a load less than crisp and clean, well rinsed and spun dry, along with being impeccably smooth and quiet, and built like a damn tank. There's not a thing about it that feels chintzy or flimsy, inside or out, and upon doing a disassembly and deep clean at almost the 5 year mark, didn't find even the slightest sign of buildup or mold anywhere throughout. My only detracting mark is that front loaders just don't have the character and fun of a top loader because of being so sealed up during operation, which is why I'm enjoying the Bravos for the time being.

Then brings me to the current dishwasher, the KitchenAid KDTM604, going two years now without a single hiccup and spotless dishes every time. The build quality of this thing is beautiful, especially when you're able to compare it to the sea of Samsungs, LGs, GEs and Frigidaires on the sales floor. The door is smooth and solid, the way the latch pulls itself shut has almost a MacBook like feel and thunk every time you close the door, all three racks are solid, and then underneath, everything looks and feels very nice and rigid. I was wary about the change to the poly-composite framing but in person it's very stable, and with it side mounted into the cavity, it doesn't have the slightest wiggle. Plus, unless I'm mistaken, Whirlpool actually has a repair video on their "academy" page on how to repair the spinning filter pump and motor, so it's not just a disposable all in one unit. To me, this machine is very reminiscent of the Voyager design, but very much improved and refined.

Along with the build quality, we also recently got a Kohler H2Wise+ water meter for our home, which will learn over time which fixtures are which, and allows you to manually identify and "teach" what is using water, so during this first several months having it, I've made sure to only run the washer or dishwashers when it was least likely any other water was needed, so that I could isolate and see exactly how much water is being used. The other night I ran a full load that was fairly average soil, not really much dried on, just the residues of some sauces and drippings, drink and coffee cups, etc. Normal cycle, no options. It started straight into the main wash, then what I call an "eco-rinse" where it fills partially and then pulses the pump several times throughout all four wash levels, essentially covering the whole load at least once, then the final rinse. The entire cycle was 1.7 gallons, meaning this new design is actually more water efficient than the previous GlobalWash than I realized. The results? Spotless, not a speck to be found, no leftover scents of food or anything at all, and the interior sparkling.

So I do agree in some ways with what a few are saying, but I also see this article as just another over-sensationalized clickbait to get people fuming. While I DO think build quality has tanked for alot of the budget offerings (looking at you GE with your paper thin dishwasher doors), there are also still alot of very well built and designed appliances on the market that are more than surpassing even the new regulations being proposed. I've long learned my lesson about dismissing things just because they're "new" without first experiencing them for myself, and while things have changed a good deal just in the last 20 years, I don't think there's yet any alarm to think that all the competing brands are going to intentionally design washers or dishwashers that won't clean.


Post# 1180298 , Reply# 13   5/10/2023 at 20:14 (349 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

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All this talk about conserving water is good however...

The largest users of water are vegetation such lawns and agriculture.
That's upwards of where 70% of our fresh water goes.

And much of that water is lost after it's sprayed out
whereas most water flushed down our sanitary drains returns via a sewerage system and is recycled and can be re-used.

I think a lot of this energy saving stuff is rather foolish at this point. We've already eliminated the GE filter-flo type water hog washers, the 10-12 gallon per load dishwashers, the 4+ gallon per flush toilets, and the faucets that can drain a lake with a few hand washings.

What's being done with regard to agricultures tremendous water usage and WHY oh WHY is the LA river draining to the ocean?


Post# 1180299 , Reply# 14   5/10/2023 at 20:17 (349 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        
Also #2

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"Bitchenaid"    LOL  laughing


Post# 1180314 , Reply# 15   5/10/2023 at 22:32 (348 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
speed queen

How will it affect Speed Queen?

Post# 1180315 , Reply# 16   5/10/2023 at 22:35 (348 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
washing dishes by hand

Gee, I loathe washing dishes by hand, which is why I have a dishwasher which I intend to use. I don't care how dirty my dishes are. The dishwasher WILL do a better job than I could.

Post# 1180317 , Reply# 17   5/10/2023 at 23:21 (348 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        
How will it affect Speed Queen?

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It will probably spell the end of top loading washers. Given the severe restrictions and garbage build quality on them now, it might not be such a bad idea to nuke them at this point.

 

Build quality on refrigerators had got to be at its lowest point in history, I'd hate to see what's in store for them next.

 

I'm curious what areas on dryers they are targeting for increased efficiency. 


Post# 1180319 , Reply# 18   5/10/2023 at 23:48 (348 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Refrigerators ... I ran across a discussion thread on a servicer board about a recent WP model on which the defrost element apparently is sourced only as part-parcel with the evaporator coil so replacing a failed defrost heater becomes a sealed-system job, which likely effectively trashes the whole thing on point of repair cost.  The defrost thermostat (thermistor), and probably any other thermistors in the system, are also not sourced separately, requires the entire wiring harness ... reason is conjectured as related to the flammable (butane?) refrigerant involved (no wiring connectors or splicing into the harness that could cause a loose connection).


Post# 1180322 , Reply# 19   5/11/2023 at 00:29 (348 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        
Reply #17

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Probably might try putting lower wattage elements in dryers along with putting a 20,000 or 18,000 btu burner orifice in. Thankfully the Maytag HOH dryers already meet these guidelines, especially the ones with the electronic dry control, 4800 watts, too.

Post# 1180329 , Reply# 20   5/11/2023 at 03:44 (348 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

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Probably might try putting lower wattage elements in dryers along with putting a 20,000 or 18,000 btu burner orifice in. Thankfully the Maytag HOH dryers already meet these guidelines, especially the ones with the electronic dry control, 4800 watts, too.

 

 

Why though? Americans and Canadians are some of the only people in the world who have the privilege or drying 3.5 cu feet of laundry in under an hour. Why take it away?


Post# 1180338 , Reply# 21   5/11/2023 at 08:52 (348 days old) by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
Restrictions

The one thing here that has not been taken into consideration is that the 3.3 gallons and under is for the Normal cycle with no soil. As long as the soil sensor is able to detect anything, the machine should add another fill for prewash, rinses, etc. As DADoES said, the main wash and two rinses should still be close to 3 gallons. My biggest issue is with the energy consumption. The Normal cycles do not heat nearly high enough, and many new machines are lowering the final rinse temperature to keep the consumption levels low. Alternative cycles like Auto/Sensor usually combat this issue.
I was pissed with the restrictions of 60 gallon hot water heaters at first, however, in use, it wasn't an issue for our family of three considering we had all water efficient machines. Some of the changes are fine, but some are poorly executed. I think that is why there is a lot of resistance.
As someone else mentioned, the dryers are next. I would not be shocked if they start pushing heat pump dryers and lower output heating elements. Though, there was a study that tested the energy consumption of dryer heat settings. The energy consumption between high and low was negligible.


Post# 1180344 , Reply# 22   5/11/2023 at 09:53 (348 days old) by qsd-dan (West)        

qsd-dan's profile picture

I was pissed with the restrictions of 60 gallon hot water heaters at first

 

Is there a restriction on water heaters over 60 gallons? I just installed an 80 gallon in January.

 

www.hotwater.com/products...


Post# 1180509 , Reply# 23   5/13/2023 at 10:57 (346 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)        
Disposable

I am more knowledgeable about electronics than appliances, but disposable means these things wind up in the landfill quicker. You won't convince me it doesn't take more time, energy, and resources to repurpose the parts including the large metal panels IF they are even salvaged. 5 to 10 years vs. 20 to 30? I live in a rural area. I am not joking when I say these new washers are one of the most COMMON yard ornament I see. They don't even make attractive plant holders!

Instead of having individual parts to replace, many new electronics require whole parts to be replaced because they are glued, soldered, etc. or have a poor design where one malfunction damages nearby parts. Combine that with the cost to get someone out here to fix it, and you might as well trash it and move on. Appliances, printers, laptops, phones, etc. It adds up!

The HE appliances use more water, electricity, chemicals, and time to accomplish the same thing the older appliances did. Loads are washed twice (more water, more electricity), chemicals added because hot water is limited, etc. They may work out of the box, but it won't be for long...That's a quality control issue that probably wasn't as well addressed back then.

When you look at the WHOLE picture and not only a piece of a puzzle, we are harming our environment.

I am not against making modifications that can conserve water, electricity, etc. as long as the performance of product is not adversely affected. Some parts like drives, memory, battery on electronics, etc. should be easily replaceable and cost effective BY the consumer. Drain pumps, heating elements, and stuff like that on appliances should be easily replaceable and cost effective to encourage consumer to go that route.

I see now they are trying to make dishwashers go from using 5 gallons to 3 gallons? Really? Seriously? People will either run the load twice or start hand washing. It's gone too far. It is one of the reasons I have repaired rather than replaced my now older dishwasher. The first one I had was replaced. I didn't realize the reason it wasn't working was because phosphates had been taken out of detergents. Then I got the "new" one (the one I have now) about ten years ago, and it wasn't much better. I don't know how much water I wasted "washing" the stuff before it even went in the dishwasher. Then I found Cascade Fryer Boil Out. Completely changed everything. It's not really available anymore at a reasonable price where I just need to scrape and rinse, but I do find the Finish tabs work pretty well so time has improved in-store detergents now available. I plan to buy a dishwasher before the new ones start rolling out even if my old one is still chugging along on its last life.

I believe the real savings will be in people being more mindful of how they use the resources they have. I use a spin dryer, which greatly reduces the dry time and can be dried at a lower temp. Run enough water for a bath instead of a full tub, turn water on/off as needed for brushing teeth, showers, etc. Use cooler temperatures to wash lightly soiled clothing, spray rinses instead of full rinses for small lightly soiled loads, limiting the use of vehicle (combine errands when possible), etc. Choose and use more fuel-efficient vehicles for every day use when possible.


Post# 1180598 , Reply# 24   5/14/2023 at 14:31 (345 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
forced to hand wash dishes

I'd hate to be forced to hand wash dishes, which I ABSOLUTELY hate. That is why I have a dishwasher. The Kenmore that I have in my apartment will be in use by me, and will do the job correctly. It is built by Bosch. I can tell because of the detergent and rinse aid dispensers.

Post# 1180609 , Reply# 25   5/14/2023 at 15:51 (345 days old) by WindRivers (Wind River Range, WY)        
Reply # 7

From what I can find electricity usage has leveled off in the past few years, but not down year by year as claimed. www.eia.gov/energyexplain...

Given that usage has at least leveled off, how much of that is in fact due to more energy efficient appliances? How much is due to other factors? How does electricity usage correlate to things like quality of life factors? For instance the home ownership rate reached a high in 2004 and has gone down since then. ipropertymanagement.com/research...

So maybe people not being unable to afford things they used to may be a factor? Like maybe less durable more expensive junk? Probably a lot of that is due to regulations. So yes, regulations may be working by making people poorer. Homeless people probably don't use a whole lot of electricity, for instance.

To me, whether I can depend on an appliance, or have to constantly have them repaired or buy new ones, is a quality of life issue. Cheap products tend not to be cost effective. I don't believe it's reasonable to think that appliances that have to be constantly repaired or replaced three times as often save energy and resources.

I also notice that while John seems to think flimsy appliances are fine for others, he buys Speed Queen front loaders for himself and brags about their durability. (www.automaticwasher.org/c... Reply 21). It may be the repair technician in him speaking, just like on the Appliance Repair Blog / Parts Pros or whatever, when asked who makes the most durable appliances they'll reply "Whirlpool" and never mention Speed Queen because Whirlpool is where they make their money. I'm not sure which I'm more impressed with; John's Speed Queen lasting well over a century, or that he was around to buy it 118 years ago.




Post# 1180638 , Reply# 26   5/14/2023 at 19:08 (345 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Repaly 23- Electronics

chetlaham's profile picture

Electronics by default determine how long a machine will last without repair:

 

 

www.xppower.com/resources...

 

 

Meaning if a circuit board is present, no large group of machines will be able to survive 30+ years. I challenge anyone to discover all the bloated or leaking capacitors within junked appliances.

 

Energy efficiency at least in part put electronics in machines due to the immense amount of logic and control required to achieve reasonable results with less water and energy.


Post# 1180649 , Reply# 27   5/14/2023 at 20:55 (345 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        
Reply #23

maytag85's profile picture
That’s what most people don’t understand, they may think they are making a difference but in reality it’s little to no difference at all. If we simply built things to last instead of being thrown away along with using clean sources of power such nuclear, wild, solar, we’d eliminate almost all pollution but everyone simply falls for the bogus nonsense that Big News and politicians put out there.

Post# 1180661 , Reply# 28   5/15/2023 at 00:47 (344 days old) by bradfordwhite (central U.S.)        

bradfordwhite's profile picture
An example "bogus nonsense " that some people fall for is

"...clean sources of power such nuclear...."

There is nothing CLEAN or GREEN about nuclear.



Post# 1180665 , Reply# 29   5/15/2023 at 07:38 (344 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
Nuclear power

What makes nuclear power just as dirty as coal? I don't understand why people fall for nuclear being clean energy.

Post# 1180667 , Reply# 30   5/15/2023 at 10:12 (344 days old) by Maytag85 (Sean A806)        
Reply #28

maytag85's profile picture
Nuclear is clean since it doesn’t admit any carbon into the atmosphere. Any waste that’s generated by nuclear fuel is minuscule, even if the US was on all nuclear, the amount that would be generated wouldn’t even fill a football field every year.

Post# 1180668 , Reply# 31   5/15/2023 at 10:29 (344 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)        
Reply 25 Appliance Life Expectancy

Many washer enthusiasts and Technicians do not use just one washer for its entire life expectancy. They have multiple washers to choose from on a daily basis. If you look through posts, reviews, own experience, ask friends/relatives, you will get an idea of a more realistic was expectancy for typical family use. From what I’ve seen that would be about 15 to 20 for an older good top load. Most likely the transmission or bearings seem to be the issue I’ve seen. A single person or a couple can expect longer.

I believe a realistic life expectancy for my TC5 could be 20 or more years because I have two washers now, was less clothes now, know how to repair minor things, realize it’s better to repair than replace even if expensive to a point. For a typical family, they should get about 15 with correct use and minor repairs.


Post# 1180669 , Reply# 32   5/15/2023 at 10:38 (344 days old) by PinkPower4 (USA)        
The Point

It’s misleading to suggest an appliance will last lifetimes given the appliances that have an extraordinary lifespan are not being used the way the typical consumer does. Most people have one washer even they are even fortunate to own one or be able to have one.

Educating consumers, building better quality, repair friendly, etc. might actually help save energy and help our environment—the whole picture. Instead corporate greed and agenda that targets only one piece of the puzzle is causing more issues and not in a way that is opposite of intended outcomes.


Post# 1180683 , Reply# 33   5/15/2023 at 13:13 (344 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
So much crap in one thread

Really, it's all a few searches away.


A full wash - PreWash - 60C/140F wash - rinse - rinse - dry uses 1.2kWh on the Non Sensor normal cycle and takes 2 1/2h.
The one hour wash - if you prefer that - does 150F wash - rinse - rinse - partial dry with 10l in one hour at about the same kWh.
If you let it run until the dry ends with AutoOpen and 5min later the fan turning off, it's about 10min longer.
If you add extra dry it's another 10min I think on top.
Extra clean adds a pre-wash and an extended main wash and is a total max of 1:40h with 16l and 1.4kWh max.
That is not sensor though - that could be easily added in though and could definetly meet that value.

Today. Even at 120V - that adds no time currently since it assumes hot fill.

Nothing has to change, if - especially on the low end - the US appliances must have INSANE markups.
Retail markups are long all but almost gone, the manufacturer does the major cut.
I mean I know my Mieles DW buy in price - the normal sold at price was an insane markup there, but that is high end.
Low end actual profit was maybe covrring operating cost per day at our store. If that. Commissions from other sales and other contract was much much higher.



CO2 production: I partially agree with that.
Appliances SHOULD either get way more green OR last an acceptable time.
However, I can tell you that most major failures in the first 10 years FOR MY SPECIFIC workplaces product category (Built in fridges and freezers and combos for basically all markets except most of the US) is extremly low.

A specific product that we sell medium much off (low to mid tens of thousands) are requiring like 300 door trays of one kind PER YEAR.
Given that is one of the most breaking parts, and it is sold at a few tens of euros, that is NOTHING.
These are the things that can break just by storing something to big like a big drink bottle by just wacking the door closed.
I don't consider that "breaking".
And we do offer compressors for fridges by law for 10 years or more. Even specific sets for in field replacement for ease of installation.

And honestly - that is apparently the hardest to understand - even at inflated prices todays fridges can be had SO CHEAP at AMAZING efficencies compared to even 20 years ago.
Sure it makes production more expensive - but after new efficency classes were introduced - an entirely new architecture was designed, is being prepared for launch in the next few years and that will offer the same efficencies priced like todays products 1 or 2 EU classes lower.

A new factory in Mexico is being built specifically for the US market RIGHT NOW.
That is SPECIFICALLY ment to increase competitiveness in the U.S. market under new regulations.


If you compare prices to like 20 years ago - INCLUDING INFLATION - they should probably all have increased FAR MORE.

One way to keep afloat while paying good wages is either to raise prices - that is not feasable in the low to mid market region.
So - you raise profits by selling products. Since basically every household has every appliance, the replacement rate is basically almost the sales rate.
Every price range has it's own replacement rate and thus projected thus engineered lifetime - at some point, you can't make appliances at a certain quality at certain price ranges.

You'll notice newly classed appliances to suddenly get much cheaper and then suddenly much more expensive.
First people start buying new, better efficency classes. Then the sale from the manufactuer seazes due to regulation, prices drop much lower to clear out stock. As demand outpaces the new limited supply prices increase rapidly to the insane almost collector piece prices.

At that point, the new range sells for the old ranges sale prices at better efficencies.
It goes through the reverse process at the beginning.




But the most amazing thing - new appliances ARE MUCH GREENER OVER THE LIFETIME.

The EPA estimated emission of CO2 per kWh is 0.855lbs.
A fridge apparently produces 400kg per appliance, much higher than washers and dryers at half that.
The source (link below) is probably negativley biased, but let's use the upper limit.
That is 882lbs approximatley. Make it 885lbs for ease of math.
Lets say the usage of the new appliance is by chance one kWh per day - say a fridge.
The old appliance uses 10% more than the new one (keep in mind we could do that easily).
1kWh = 90%
1% of 1kWh at 90% is 0.01111 repeating.
That makes 100% at 1,1111kWh repeating. Cut some slack, make it 1.1kWh.

So, a new appliance uses it's own production CO2 emissions in:
885lbs/0.885lbs per day = 1000 days
Or 2 3/4 years.

At this rate, it still takes nearly 27 1/2 years to offset a new appliance production, yes.
But if your fridge ever needs replacing for any reason that is prohibitively expensive - like a compressor or control board - you can be assured that even running it for "just" 10 years produced more than 3,5 times the CO2 of it's production.

Given that most new appliances ARE replacements, that number suddenly becomes SO MUCH MORE impactfull, especially over their lifetime.

The following is NOT accounting for further decarbonisation in energy grids AND appliances getting even more efficient.
At the 2021 electricity emissions, and the current 2021 kWh emissions, and the Statis date of fridges of the US in 2015 at about 118Mio, if each fridge is replaced by a 10% more efficent model, over a 20 year timeframe constantly at 5%, that switch would cause a cummulative saving over the 20 years of over 95% of the production stage.

Keep in mind - the US is already 10+ years behind the EU in that fridge efficency regard.
In 20 years, we want to have met our emission standards for electricity, the grid won't be any more resilient for sure. We can't decarbonize at the current total energy draw, its basically impossible in that time frame.
Every kWh matters - and yes, even the worser electric cars offset themselfes to CO2 advantage after a couple 10k miles AT CURRENT EMISSIONS.
This switch of fridges basically offsets itself already, at that puny efficency gain, if NO FURTHER REGILATION IS DONE.

That switch can be done, way more is apparently supposed to happen.
Even those maths probably works out, as mind boggling it is.



So yeah.
How often does a DW run? Definetly several times a week.
It's carbon emissions are half of a fridge apparently during production.
Keep in mind all the water purification cost and emissions saved.
Plus any energy.
For what? Something you do maybe once a day that will definetly offset itself nationwide over 20 years - just to unload the DW at a different time, if even that.


CLICK HERE TO GO TO henene4's LINK


Post# 1180687 , Reply# 34   5/15/2023 at 13:59 (344 days old) by henene4 (Heidenheim a.d. Brenz (Germany))        
Fresh and Waste water

Science direct estimates the sum carbon footprint of a cubic meter - supposedly just over 260gal - fresh water purification and waste water treatment at over double that from one kWh.

So yes, that's just about 80 regulation cycles for more than an additional 2kWh of savings.



So quite little, but still quite a lot over the 8.69 Mio DW unit shipments in 2019 according to Statista.


Post# 1180702 , Reply# 35   5/15/2023 at 20:59 (344 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
Bulging Caps

chetlaham's profile picture

If the Frigimores, Calypsos, Neptunes, Harmonies, FL Speed Queens, and really any other HE washer had been built purely EM a whole lot of premature failures would have been spared. A Front load spinning at 640 rpm is still more efficient than an equivalent top load washer. A Whirlpool power clean module while using slightly more energy with only 4.8 gallons of water (W-P-R) can handle real world soils much more realistically than a fitter that needs to be cleaned manually. Factor in a motor that doesn't have brushes to wear you're looking at less carbon to build and dispose of in the long term.  Nothing to fail, nothing break, all while preserving resources.

 

 

Here is an example at 1:45 >>>

 

 






 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



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