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Post# 1188804   8/29/2023 at 09:51 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

After 2 weeks of using the KDTM604KPS, I figured I would give a review of my newest purchase. As many of you know, stopmeister72 recently had his machine’s filter explode, which is seemingly common. However, murando531 and Lorainfurniture have had excellent experiences with their machines. Despite this, I didn’t have the desire to purchase another Bosch given how unique the KA machines are, but also with the sentimental value and heritage of KA/Hobart running in my family. So, I went ahead and bit the bullet.

I purchased the machine from Menards and had to wait a little longer than expected since the machine had to be special ordered. Once I finally received the email, I went straight to Menards after work and picked her up! Installation was a little more time consuming than expected. Though, our power line for the dishwasher is shorter than it should be. The Bosch still excels as the easiest dishwasher I have ever installed, next the KUDS25 because of all the space under the tub, and probably the KDTM in 3rd. It wasn’t horrible, but small and stable hands are best.

Initial impressions from the machine are top notch! Quality is better than expected. Dare I say PC levels of quality. Very solid, sturdy, and ergonomic. Considering most new appliances aren’t like this, consider me very impressed. The racks roll smoothly and have a high character of quality and refinement. Loading so far has been easy. The only spot that has been an issue has been with the third rack on the right hand side. Large sauce or cooking spoons don’t seem to fit as well as they should. However, if you take the basket out, they fit perfectly. Rectangular Pyrex dishes fit well here, too. The fact that 6 tall glass cups and about 5-6 mugs can fit on the left hand side of the 3rd rack frees up a lot of space for the second rack. Speaking of the third rack, the spinning spray arms have cleaned all items in this area perfectly. However, they are a little annoying. More on that later. Second rack is very easy to load and holds quite a bit. In particular, the right side of the second rack can hold small plates, large bowls, and taller tumblers or Yetis without issue. This is a big deal for us. Normally taller cups need to be placed in the bottom rack of either the Bosch or the PC. This isn’t an issue anymore. The first rack is nice, but I feel that the tines are somewhat far apart, which limits the overall potential capacity of plates. It does seem to feel a bit small. With the silverware basket in place, you can only fit 2 large saucepans and about 8 plates before the bottom rack is full. Considering I could do the same with the PC, and hold more with the Bosch, that is a little disappointing. I think the adjusting row of racks in the front is a great concept, but I will likely follow suit of what murando531 has done, and zip tie the rack in the optimal position. The silverware basket takes a little getting used to, but ultimately is placed in a prime spot for excellent cleaning, and the spots that keep the silverware separated and prevent nesting are a nice touch.

The first cycle of the machine was Prowash with High Temp wash and ProDry off. Initially, I was shocked to barely hear the machine filling, but the real shock is to hear how quiet this machine is while running. It easily is the quietest dishwasher I have ever used. Many have said that their Bosch was quieter, but mine wasn't. The loudest part of the machine running is the drain. However, water spraying inside of stainless pots is by far the loudest part of the washing process. The motor is far more quiet than I expected. There are some complaints of motor noise, but it just sounds like a quiet refrigerator compressor IMHO. I did not stay to monitor number of fills or length of this wash, but the machine did perform a prewash with a moderately soiled load. In the morning, the load was completely clean and bone dry after the fan ran for the full 8 hours.

However, recently I was able to sit and ‘watch’ the entire wash cycle. Prowash, High Temp wash, ProDry OFF:
2:32 Initial
Prewash (9:10-9:28) - Ended 2:14
Prewash 2 (9:29-9:35) - Ended 2:06
Mainwash (9:36 - 10:43) - Ended 0:51
Detergent dispensed 2:03
Rinse 1 (10:44 - 10:54 ) - Ended 0:40
Purge (fill & drain only) - Ended 0:39
Purge (fill, recirc bottom rack twice, and drain) - Ended 0:39
Final Rinse (11:00 - 11:25) - Ended - 0:07
Dry (11:26 - 11:33) - Ended -
Fan ON – 11:33

All items from this moderately soiled load were spotless and bone dry. But I was beyond shocked to see a second prewash. This was the only time I have ever experienced this. The first load ran in the machine had heavier soils, but I did not stand around to see if it performed a 2nd prewash. Same goes for the purges as well. These are different than the ‘Eco Rinses’ that murando531 has described. Water use would be approximately 5.8 gallons for this cycle. Quite a bit more than expected.

However, while babysitting this load, I found that my third rack has the ubiquitous rotating spray tube noise. It is loud enough that it gets your attention but is not obtrusive. If there is any other noise such as TV, fans, and some other appliances. I likely will not do anything about it since it only occurs occasionally. Also, I had to add a knife to the load while the machine was running. Water from the bottom spray arm shot a good 3 feet across the kitchen onto the floor. This machine has far more pressure than expected. The fan for drying is not loud at all and sounds like a computer fan.

I have also ran Normal with ProDry off, and the main wash was about 1:20, detergent dispensed after about 10 minutes, the ‘Eco Rinse’ was about 3 minutes long and rotates through all racks while spraying for about 3 seconds per level. No sounds of cavitation while that is occurring. Then followed by the final rinse that is about 25-30 minutes long. No prewash. This cycle would have used approximately 2.4 gallons of water and left no yibbles, cloudy glasses, or residue anywhere.

I did run a ProWash with ProDry ON, and the load was completely dry as expected, even though we emptied the machine immediately after the cycle ended. I really like how the blue LED while washing turns to red when heated dry is selected. That is a nice touch.

This machine seems to do the best on silverware that I have ever experienced. The Bosch did good, the PC did good, but silverware here seems to be polished and never has any residue that is easily wiped off.

So far, this machine has exceeded my expectations. I will give occasional updates on it in the future!

Post# 1188809 , Reply# 1   8/29/2023 at 10:49 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
prowash cycle

You should try the prowash cycle with prodry and hightemp wash on.

Post# 1188814 , Reply# 2   8/29/2023 at 11:35 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

There isn't really a need for ProDry unless the dishes are needed rather quickly. If I let the dishes sit in the Dishwasher overnight, the machine runs the fan and dishes are dry by the morning. It isn't worth the additional electricity or potential damage to dishes. I just ran ProDry the one time to have dry dishes immediately to put them away, but also to see if there even was a difference. The air coming out of the fan vent and the dishes themselves were very warm. I HIGHLY doubt I will ever run Extended ProDry. Also, ProDry adds about 25 minutes extra.

Post# 1188819 , Reply# 3   8/29/2023 at 15:09 by luxflairguy (Wilmington NC)        

This is a dishwasher? Who made it? The title line doesn't say...

Post# 1188820 , Reply# 4   8/29/2023 at 15:18 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

I suspect it was built by Whirlpool.

Post# 1188821 , Reply# 5   8/29/2023 at 15:19 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
rinse aid

What rinse aid do you use? I use Cascade Power Dry which works very well.

Post# 1188823 , Reply# 6   8/29/2023 at 15:31 by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
Simple matter to Google the model number.

I recognized it as KitchenAid without doing that, along with the clues as such in the post.

Post# 1188834 , Reply# 7   8/29/2023 at 17:33 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

Yes, it's a KitchenAid.

Post# 1188835 , Reply# 8   8/29/2023 at 17:34 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
rinse aid

Finish Jet Dry Ultra from Costco

Post# 1188851 , Reply# 9   8/29/2023 at 23:05 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        

What detergent do you use? I use Cascade complete in mine and I've yet to have any issues.

Post# 1188856 , Reply# 10   8/29/2023 at 23:41 by Egress (Oregon)        

your experience matches mine pretty well. outstanding! the 3rd rack really gives this dishwasher more space then one would expect it to, the ability to shift drinking glasses out of the 2nd rack offers room for larger items that would otherwise be handwashed if the first rack fills up.

Post# 1188869 , Reply# 11   8/30/2023 at 09:15 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

Absolutely! Have you heard the 3rd rack whine?

Currently using up a large stash of Finish Quantum from Costco. It cleans really well, and does not suds up like Cascade products do, however, I like the addition of Trisodium Dicarboxymethyl Alaninate in Cascade products. It helps quite a bit with hard water minerals and deposits but also has some surfactant properties to help with degreasing. It's one of the closest things we can get to STPP, AFAIK.

Post# 1188872 , Reply# 12   8/30/2023 at 09:33 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I love the lower sudsing properties of Finish products vs. Cascade. I may continue using them even if I don't have another Bosch dishwasher. If I ever build another house, I'll be including a whole-house water softening system.

Post# 1189032 , Reply# 13   8/31/2023 at 23:52 by Egress (Oregon)        

I don't believe I have heard a whining noise from the 3rd rack, but the dishwasher occasionally makes a "fart" sound which I believe is the diverter valve moving. we use cascade powder.

Post# 1189072 , Reply# 14   9/1/2023 at 12:43 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
my experience with Finish products

I've had sudsing issues with Finish products before. I like Cascade for the cleaning power and smell. The suds level varies in my Kenmore equivalent to Bosch. I'm currently using Cascade Complete in the citrus breeze which doesn't suds.

Post# 1189179 , Reply# 15   9/2/2023 at 16:39 by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Whirlpool-made dishwashers, all the way back to the pressure sensor KUDS25 will activate the “medium soil” level of the cycle program if “Hi Temp” is selected. So you got two pre-rinses because of that.
ProWash will almost always do 1 prewash, also.
Normal, to save water, will go right to MainWash with no options and soil is light enough. Even with moderate soils. Normal has a pretty high threshold to kick up to a medium or high soil sense program change.

Post# 1189191 , Reply# 16   9/2/2023 at 19:50 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
normal cycle on my Kenmore

The normal cycle on my Kenmore would do the same thing. I'm quite certain that if I select turbo clean, it would add another prerinse.

Post# 1189331 , Reply# 17   9/4/2023 at 19:52 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

John, do you have one of these machines? The ProWash with High Temp as posted above is the only instance I have ever witnessed this machine perform 2 prewashes other than Express. Ran Normal with High Temp today and it performed 1 prewash, with 2 full post rinses. ~4.0 gallons.
I have been nothing but impressed with this machine so far. I actually ran the machine and watched TV in the other room. Couldn't even hear the machine draining.

Post# 1189531 , Reply# 18   9/7/2023 at 09:30 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        
ProWash Heated Dry OFF

Ran a full lightly soiled load of dishes today.
ProWash Heated Dry OFF, no other options. Used a bluetooth/wireless digital thermometer.
Prewash 2:13-2:01
Mainwash 2:00-0:50 (reached 120ºF and maintained within 3ºF for remainder)
Detergent dispensed within 1 minute of water recirculating
Rinse 1 0:49- 0:40
Rinse 2 0:39-0:08 (reached 140ºF for 3 minutes)
Dry 0:08 - End
Fan turned on when cycle was complete

I am very happy with this. One of the biggest benefit to the Bosch over the KA was the Auto cycle which defaulted to a higher main wash temp. However, this proves my theory that ProWash uses a slightly higher main wash temp. Now, there isn't really any major benefit to a Bosch besides reliability. This will be my default setting unless there is a heavily soiled load, or someone is sick.

Also, no 3rd rack noise in this load.

Post# 1189725 , Reply# 19   9/10/2023 at 00:15 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
It occurred to me this evening a wish--when KitchenAid brings out new models or design, I want the higher end models to hhave inline heating rather than the heating element at the bottom. The top two models for GE Profile & Cafe lines have inline heating. The last dishwasher Frigilux bought from GE before he sold his house had inline heating. He really liked it. I think the KA design should devise a way to heat circulated air with the inline heater for indirect drying.

Post# 1189746 , Reply# 20   9/10/2023 at 12:54 by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        
Dishwasher heating elements

combo52's profile picture
It doesn’t make any difference whether the elements in the bottom of the tank or built into the pump assembly.

And when it’s built into the pump assembly, it’s very costly and difficult to replace it also often causes pump damage because the pump housing is plastic and it has a heating element in it when something goes wrong.

KitchenAid, along with every other major dishwasher sold in the US has had plenty of problems in the last decade. I’m glad they have not done this one additional troublesom some thing.

Not having the heating element in the bottom, eliminates the possibility of having a really effective drying system to that can get the job done more quickly.


Post# 1189851 , Reply# 21   9/12/2023 at 10:28 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

I highly doubt that would happen. Whirlpool wouldn't have the ability to have true drying cycles as John said. Though, I'm sure if they raised the final rinse to 150ºF and used the fan to assist in drying, the machine would dry better than most Bosch machines, not including Crystal Dry units.

Post# 1190096 , Reply# 22   9/16/2023 at 11:35 by PinkPower4 (USA)        
lakewebsterkid and combos52...

First of all, thank you, lakewebsterkid, for the very detailed review! I come back here occasionally to try to narrow down my choice between a KitchenAid 600 series, Bosch 800 series, and Maytag with either 8959 or 9959 in the model name.

My Frigidaire is over 10 years old. I replaced several parts, but I am not sure if the touch pad or something connected is going out on it. I have made the decision to replace when I can no longer get it to start at all. I have to press several times in just the right place for it to come on. The delay feature has been a workaround but I try to remember to run the hot water right before it comes on. Despite that it works well with its orbit arm. I use Finish detergent and rinse aid as well. It has the exposed heating element at the bottom and dries well.

If I read combos52 post right, the hidden heating element design is not necessarily a good thing? So is the Bosch heating element mixed in with the pump? I just know there is no exposed element so if something falls through the rack, it won't melt.

My Frigidaire with a rotating orbit arm works well. Even I can replace simple parts like either of the pumps. It has the heating element in the bottom. I have lost a few plastics along the way, so the Bosch feature appealed to me. However, not if this is the design Combos52 refers to. Hmmm. Glad I saw this. They just now got the Bosch back in stock in black where I live. However, being able to fix what I can is important to me. I actually liked the racks on the KitchenAid the best. It just gets bad reviews on touchpad issues. Maytag is also in the running, and comes in the black I would prefer.

Post# 1190128 , Reply# 23   9/17/2023 at 08:15 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

No, you read Combo52's post backward. Lol. He prefers that the heating element is separate.
After owning the KA for around a month, I will not hesitate to recommend it. The Maytag versions should be great as well, though I know the 'chopper' has been a point of failure for those machines. If you have the financial means, I highly recommend buying the 604 because of the drying fan. Not sure if I could go back to a Bosch.
This machine replaced a rather mediocre Frigidaire. It cleaned halfway decent and dried surprisingly well for what it was and what I expected from it, but nothing compared to the KA.
Last weekend I cooked quite a bit on our Blackstone. Lots of tools, egg molds, and scraper were used. The load was pretty heavily soiled. We loaded the KA up, ran ProWash with no options, and a Cascade platinum pack, and the load came out spotless including all of the cooked on egg. I have never had a dishwasher that removes all of the cooked on egg. The egg molds were on the third rack in the cutlery tray too. The Bosch would not have been able to do this.
It is also nice to open the machine and have the dishes already dry compared to opening a Bosch and having the steam roll out and let the dishes flash dry for a few minutes prior to unloading.

Post# 1190148 , Reply# 24   9/17/2023 at 14:25 by appnut (TX)        
the fan ran for the full 8 hours.

appnut's profile picture
Does the fan run for the full 8 hours if hot dry isn't selected? I might select sani rinse (depending upon soil level) to get a good dry without having a heated dry if fan would run for 8 hours at the end of the cycle. I wonder if it does the same thing after the end of the express cycle.

Post# 1190204 , Reply# 25   9/18/2023 at 07:54 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

Yes, the fan runs constantly for the 8 hours after the cycle is complete, except on Express Wash. It does not run at all, AFAIK.
However, if heated dry is selected, the fan does click on with about 5 minutes or so left in the cycle, and proceeds to run for 8 hours.
Selecting Sanitize rinse might wait a few to allow the air to cool before turning the fan on. I am not sure though, as I have only ran Sanitize once and went to bed after. In theory, that should dry better than heated dry, though this machine really doesn't need help with drying. Very shocked to see that the 204 rated 2/5 on drying in CR testing. 

Post# 1191097 , Reply# 26   10/2/2023 at 09:34 by lakewebsterkid (Dayton, Ohio)        

Sorry to keep bumping this thread, however a few updates. The machine is still performing flawlessly.



-The 3rd rack noise has not occurred again. We love how we can place a minimum of 10 glasses up there to save space on the 2nd rack. Far more useful than the 3rd rack on the 204, IMHO. 

-No dishes have come out with even a speck on them. Last night a stainless steel 13x9 was used to bake potato chunks in the oven. The pan was placed on the bottom rack on the outside edge facing horizontally with only scrapping. Which is something I do not like doing because the PointVoyager couldn't do it, and the PowerClean required Pots & Pans or Antibacterial cycle for it to come clean in this position, and the Bosch could only do it angled or face down, so most the time I put them angled down at 45º. This morning the pan was spotless with only scraping and at 90º.  

-Cutlery basket is well laid out and allows for great cleaning of silverware. 

-Sudsing issues with Cascade actionpacs does not occur in this machine



-No rinse aid light or reminder anywhere other than the visual port on the rinse aid cover. Though this machine supposedly can hold 3-4 months of rinse aid. 

-Adjustable tines at the front of the bottom rack are still annoying. 

-Our Roomba gets stuck under the dry vent at the base of the front of the machine as it cleans baseboard edges. Might be preventable if I raise the height of the machine. 

-The machine is so large that we frequently run out of plates, silverware, bowls, or pots & pans before the machine is completely full. 


Odd Notes:

-It is kinda cool to see the time adjust on ProWash. ProWash without heated dry defaults to 2:13, with High Temp wash & no heated dry it is 2:32. However, if a moderate-heavily soiled load is sensed with ProWash, after a few minutes into the prewash, the machine will adjust time up to the same as a ProWash with High Temp option added, though not sure if it automatically increases temperature to 140ºF for the mainwash. I wouldn't be shocked if it raises it to 130ºF and extends wash time. It seems to have 3 soil levels. Light at 2:13 and using a prewash, Moderate adjusting time up to 2:32 for the total cycle but drops mainwash detergent immediately after the prewash, then a heavy soil setting which senses in the 2nd fill also to either drain or drop the detergent. They have really figured the optimal cycle patterns out. 

-I have only witnessed the purge between rinse 1 and final rinse the one occurrence as described in the first post. Not sure if that was for water turbidity sensing purposes. 

-I have only witnessed the machine perform 2 prewashes on two occasions, but while running ProWash. Odd enough, Tough only performed 1, but was a lightly soiled load. Just wanted to wash dog bowls on that cycle and try it out. Can not note performance of prewashes and rinses on Normal as I do not use that cycle. 


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