Thread Number: 96390  /  Tag: Modern Dishwashers
Bosch dishwasher high performance pumps
[Down to Last]
Post# 1210982   8/1/2024 at 21:08 (284 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        

If Bosch pumps in their dishwashers are high performing, why do they speed up and slow down during wash when filled with water? You'd think it would run at full speed at all times like the older single-speed ones did. I assume the new pumps have the water pressure at a weak spray at certain points. Then at other times, the spray is at full blast.
Why do they soft start instead of turn on immediately with bursts like their older ones and most dishwashers do?




This post was last edited 08/01/2024 at 21:37



Post# 1211004 , Reply# 1   8/2/2024 at 01:37 (283 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Good question, I don't know Bosch's reasoning but my guess is primarily two fold:

 

1) Achieve various pressures based on load type- ie pots and pans get strong pressure, everyday cycles medium pressure, china cycles deliver low pressure. GE for example would either introduce air into the sump boot or do a reduced fill to soften the water on the china crystal cycle.

 

2) Compensate for the tall tub low water design-

 

a) To prevent drawing in air or cavitation, the pump slows down as water is returning into the sump then speeds up to deliver it to the wash arm. As soon as the pump starts to draw in air, it slows, waits for the water to return, then ramps up. Its a way of using less water with the same sump, pump and spray arms.

 

b) To purge trapped air bubbles out of the pump and sump.

 

c) To warm the air inside once the door has been opened or the machine has drained and re-filled. The rapidly expanding cold air can force water out of the bottom vents where the door linear meets the tub floor- so by warming the air inside through brief bursts of water there is less cold air to expand at start of wash. 

 

I'm sire there are other reasons, but these 4 come to mind.


Post# 1211012 , Reply# 2   8/2/2024 at 06:38 (283 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
auto cycle

I noticed mine does it on every cycle. What about the auto cycle? The first pre-wash is at low pressure, while the main wash is at high pressure. The final rinse is at low pressure too. Why is that?

Post# 1211016 , Reply# 3   8/2/2024 at 07:20 (283 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Not sure- maybe energy. It takes less pressure to rinse dishes than to clean them, in theory, so running the pump at low speed saves energy without sacrificing performance. 

 

Me personally I like across the line motors. VFDs add complexity and various failure points.  Electrolytic caps have a finite lifespan, so if those are present in a machine its a given expiration date.


Post# 1211031 , Reply# 4   8/2/2024 at 11:12 (283 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
active water

I wonder if my dishwasher is based off the active water or variable pressure wash system technology that Bosch is known for. There's nothing wrong with it, but I have been taking observations to the behavior of the dishwasher. I'm wondering if the water flow is still active. With the turbo clean option during the intermediate rinse, the heater comes on and the pump is at full pressure for a few minutes, then it lowers it minutes later. Sometimes, my dishwasher will run the pump at full pressure depending on how full and dirty the load is. It really is a workhorse and I don't see myself planning to quit using it. I'd rather use it since it's there. Side note: I'm enjoying Finish Ultimate due to its performance. I really like the fresh smell it gives my dishwasher. The corresponding rinse aid works well too.

Post# 1211032 , Reply# 5   8/2/2024 at 11:14 (283 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
pumps

Back to the pumps, I wonder if electricity is increased or decreased when changing pump speeds, or if it's at constant full charge and the electricity goes to different phases. Either way, my dishes still get clean completely regardless. I'm just used to single speed pumps.

Post# 1211035 , Reply# 6   8/2/2024 at 11:25 (283 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

A pump running at lower speed when driven by a typical VFD will definitely consume less electricity. If its a 3 phase motor, as are most VFD motors, current equally goes up or down on all 3 phases. 


Post# 1211066 , Reply# 7   8/2/2024 at 17:22 (283 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
to chetlaham

I believe mine is a 3 phase pump. You can hear the water flowing throughout the dishwasher at both pressure levels. And, it sounds fairly strong when the dishwasher is empty at both pressure levels too. As a side note, check out my thread about dishwasher detergent fragrances and another one regarding shrimp Alfredo casserole.

Post# 1211076 , Reply# 8   8/2/2024 at 18:24 (283 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

If the machine works for you, if it makes you happy, then I am happy. If the Bosch works for you then it works for you, thats all that matters. 3 phase induction motors are the best out there. They have the lowest vibration, smoothest power output, great torque and are among the most efficient. I don't know what the slip on that motor is, but if driven by a high frequency that motor may not even get super hot to the touch making is bar none while extending its life. 

 

Thanks for bring those threads to my attention, I will check them out! :) 


Post# 1211079 , Reply# 9   8/2/2024 at 18:48 (283 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        
Bosch BLDC motor

permanent magnet rotor,so no "slip" and runs cool-no cooling provisions besides(normally hot) water going through pump.

Post# 1211082 , Reply# 10   8/2/2024 at 19:36 (283 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I was thinking a dry rotor induction pump. My mistake in assuming.  


Post# 1211083 , Reply# 11   8/2/2024 at 19:51 (283 days old) by neptunebob (Pittsburgh, PA)        
3 phase?

neptunebob's profile picture
But how can a Bosch dishwasher have a 3 phase motor if residential electric service is only single phase? By they way, our Bosch makes a low rumbling sound, it is quiet so I really don't notice any change in running.

I will post a review of our Bosch this weekend.


Post# 1211085 , Reply# 12   8/2/2024 at 20:06 (283 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        
3 Phase

chetlaham's profile picture

Can be produced from a single phase service via a variable frequency drive. AC power comes in, is rectified to DC, smoothed, then converted to 3 phase out-power via semiconductor switching. 


Post# 1211086 , Reply# 13   8/2/2024 at 20:06 (283 days old) by cfz2882 (Belle Fourche,SD)        

the inverter in the dishwasher can take in single phase power and output 3 phase AC power or-with BLDC motors-3 phase switched DC.Single phase fed 3 phase AC out inverters driving 3-phase induction motors is common on a lot of 2010s belt-driven front load washers and certain top loads like the GE Hydrowave.

Post# 1211090 , Reply# 14   8/2/2024 at 20:16 (283 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
Kenmore by Bosch running smoothly

Oh, I see. That may explain why my Bosch dishwasher which is under the name Kenmore runs so smoothly. Maybe it's the variable spray feature that keeps the water active even when changing pressure.

Post# 1211092 , Reply# 15   8/2/2024 at 20:19 (283 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
dishwasher power up sound

One thing I forgot to mention is that when you press the power button to turn the machine on, you'll hear 4 clicks then you'll hear power being applied to the pump as if it's about to start. Why do Bosch dishwashers do that? Mine which is a Kenmore does that.

Post# 1211097 , Reply# 16   8/2/2024 at 20:58 (283 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
After pushing start at the beginning of the cycle, the pump is checking to see if there's any appreciable amount of liquid in the sump which needs to be oumped out. And it will even if there's ajust a small amount that hadly any consequence.

Post# 1211102 , Reply# 17   8/2/2024 at 22:41 (283 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Fisher & Paykel SmartDrive motors are 3-phase in both topload washers and DishDrawers.  SmartLoad dryer also has a 3-phase, reversing motor.  And AquaSmart's SmartPump.

DD603 DishDrawer motor description from the service doc:  The motor is a fully electronically controlled 80V, 60w, 3 phase, 6 pole brushless DC motor, running on wash at between 2300-2850rpm depending on the cycle selected and at approximately 4200 rpm on Drain.

Series 9 DishDrawer:  The motor is a fully electronically controlled 80V, 60w, 3 phase, 6 pole brushless DC motor, running on wash at between 2200 - 2800 rpm depending on the cycle selected, and at approximately 5000 rpm on drain.

AquaSmart pump:  The motor is a fully electronically controlled 325V, 3 phase, 6 pole, brushless DC motor.  The speed of the motor will vary depending on whether it is draining or recirculating the water.
Motor Resistance per Phase:  8.1Ω +/- 10% (16.2Ω +/- 10% across any two phases).
Maximum Wattage:  200W
Nominal Wattage:  60W
Drain Speed:  2500rpm
Recirculation Speed:  2000 rpm


Post# 1211115 , Reply# 18   8/3/2024 at 05:43 (282 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
high pitch motor drive

If anything, the only thing you'll hear is the high pitch pump motor drive. It's the best dishwasher I've ever had. The noise you'll hear the most is water splashing around. It does sound like a thunderstorm in the dishwasher.

Post# 1211522 , Reply# 19   8/7/2024 at 12:22 (278 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        

johnb300m's profile picture
Oh my god do you not understand marketing?
These are MARKETING driven firms.


Post# 1211555 , Reply# 20   8/7/2024 at 17:43 (278 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
marketing

I know what marketing is. I just feel they should just back up their marketing claims with time-tested designs like Speed Queen Alliance does.

Post# 1211745 , Reply# 21   8/9/2024 at 18:49 (276 days old) by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)        

My dad bought a newer Bosch model that was placed at his moms condo where my sister now lives, and it does this and it’s the most bizarre sounding dishwasher I’ve ever heard. It honestly sounded like an airplane taking off, but very quiet, too quiet for my liking. The quality of the machine seems to of gone downhill compared to previous Bosch models family of mine has had, and I would honestly really hate to be stuck with a dishwasher like that. In my opinion it has nothing on Whirlpools build quality. I used to like Bosch up until they started making them like they do now. Like why is there a plastic floor in the tub now? Seriously? It was always stainless steel like the rest of the tub as it’s been in their machines for decades and decades.

I also would have questions if at low speed that the jet streams are even traveling high enough to reach in all the nooks and cranny’s & up into glasses & whatever. It’s 2024 and we still don’t have any dishwashers with a transparent door 🙄 yet we can have crap like Wi-Fi in dishwashers and washers and dryers, AI and the highest technology ever seen in the world.

When I was between 4-8 years old my mom was running our 80s hotpoint by GE dishwasher, and for the first time she had it set to the light wash. I could of swore that the motor was running slower than on any other setting, and I figured it was because it was on light wash. But as I got older and started using it myself I realized I must of been hallucinating or something cause it does not do that, lol. Or maybe the dishwasher wasn’t running right that particular cycle who knows, it was only used twice or three times a year for holidays only or big dinnas.



Post# 1211748 , Reply# 22   8/9/2024 at 19:25 (276 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Dan, my knowledge is only the lowest priced Bosch has the plastic floor to reach a price point. I don't consider it a legitimate Bosch and I'd not own one.

Post# 1211797 , Reply# 23   8/10/2024 at 11:45 (275 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
plastic floor

Mine has a plastic floor and does that servo startup sound.

Post# 1211798 , Reply# 24   8/10/2024 at 11:49 (275 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
to maytaga806

I've had to open my dishwasher while it was on low speed pumping during washing to be certain that the jets were traveling. I still don't get what the logic was. They could've used the full speed all throughout.

Post# 1211799 , Reply# 25   8/10/2024 at 12:09 (275 days old) by johnb300m (Chicago)        
Shame!

johnb300m's profile picture
Shame on Bosch for having two speeds and not using full power to wash!
Stupid stupid!
/s


Post# 1211809 , Reply# 26   8/10/2024 at 16:46 (275 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
stupid!

Yes! It is stupid, stupid, stupid! And it should have a stainless steel floor!

Post# 1211819 , Reply# 27   8/10/2024 at 20:30 (275 days old) by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
I have no complaints about my bosch dishwasher. It far outcleans any of the KitchenAid produced Kenmore Elites I had (2) and even the GSD1200 Potscrubber. It's the only dishwasher I've ever used in my 60+ years of actually using dishwahers whereby soil and film has been removed off my crock pot slow cooker liner and scrabled eggs in a stainless steel skillet. I don't get all bent out of shape about it useig different speeds. In fact I see some logic/rationale with initial prewash not using full force spray. It's like manually prerinsing dishes (which I DO NOT DO) before putting them in the dishwasher. The big pieces are knocked off and flushed down the drain through the filter. Makes sense to me. Then the rinse deals with soils that weren't easily remooved. Then the main wash deals with the worst of the soil for the next 50-70 minutes. And the final rinse of the cycle before dry is mostly gentler spray. Why not. Every thing is clean. Just largely heating up the load in preparation for drying or you've selected the sanitize rinse. No intense spraying to degrade dishware. In fact, the Bosch has removed cloudiness the Potscrubber and the Kitchenpools created.

My Bosch is variable speed, not just 2 speeds.


Post# 1211830 , Reply# 28   8/10/2024 at 23:55 (274 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
bosch dishwasher speeds

Now I see the logic in this. So the soft spray is for getting the big stuff and for the final rinse, and the main wash and second rinse after the first is at full force. Maybe the jets still travel but it's like the pressure is at a flow instead of a blast thereby soaking the dishes.

Post# 1211832 , Reply# 29   8/11/2024 at 00:27 (274 days old) by simpsomatic (Palm Springs, CA)        
Who cares....

The only logic in your post is that the pressure is in your head and needs a blast to clear it

Post# 1211897 , Reply# 30   8/11/2024 at 17:30 (274 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
older dishwashers

I've had older dishwashers that kept the pressure at full force and they've always gotten the insides of glasses clean as long as the jets are designed right. Yes, my dishwasher cleans great. I just prefer the jets traveling throughout the machine at all times. I want the water to get through all the nooks and crannies.

Post# 1211961 , Reply# 31   8/12/2024 at 15:58 (273 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
transparent door

@maytaga806, I wish dishwashers today had transparent doors like washers and dryers so we could see what's going on.

Post# 1216624 , Reply# 32   10/13/2024 at 15:54 (211 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
final rinse high pressure

I've had occasions where the final rinse was at high pressure. Why is this the case?

Post# 1216626 , Reply# 33   10/13/2024 at 16:00 (211 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
shrimp Alfredo casserole dish

I've put the shrimp Alfredo casserole dish straight into the machine and the pump was able to blast it completely clean. No rinsing, no scrubbing, nothing. Everything comes out completely clean, even on smart wash HE.

Post# 1216635 , Reply# 34   10/13/2024 at 18:32 (211 days old) by eronie (Flushing Michigan)        

Enough Jerome we are all getting tired of dragging a dead horse

Post# 1216678 , Reply# 35   10/14/2024 at 11:55 (210 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
to chetlaham

On top of that, I've put dirty pancake battered bowls into the machine, in addition to my dirty plates and I've never had to rewash anything. I think mine is comparable to appnut's dishwasher due to the fact mine is a Bosch built Kenmore. I think it cleans better than any other dishwasher I've used before, ever. Finish does work better than Cascade folks.

Post# 1216682 , Reply# 36   10/14/2024 at 13:06 (210 days old) by Egress (Oregon)        

dude please, we dont need the rambling.

Post# 1216683 , Reply# 37   10/14/2024 at 14:14 (210 days old) by me (Essex, UK)        
transparent door

Why not get a cheap waterproof camera to get the view inside your dishwasher from your shrimp Alfredo casserole dish's perspective. If you get one with wifi you'll be able to stream it :-) Just make sure it can stand the heat.

Of course it's been done before






The plastic base will be to simplify assembly, cut the component count and save costs. If you have a moulded plastic, then you could also mould components like half the shell of the drain pump straight into the base so the half with the motor and impeller attached just snaps straight in, cutting cost further.

I was looking into buying a new dishwasher around the time Bosch started doing one with plastic bases, it put me off buying a new one. They'd previously had issues with the elements in their wash pumps failing, and there were leaking issues with some of the early models. I believe both issues are long since resolved.

www.fixmywhitegoods.co.uk...


Post# 1216684 , Reply# 38   10/14/2024 at 14:59 (210 days old) by simpsomatic (Palm Springs, CA)        
Enough

Please do not offer any encouragement to these two NUTS. They will drag this non-contributing thread on forever with their Facebook dribble and continue to demean other AW members.

Post# 1216707 , Reply# 39   10/14/2024 at 22:35 (210 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
rambling

Well, what more can I say every single time this Kenmore dishwasher amazes me with its high performance pumps? I wish I had pictures to back up my ramblings just to demonstrate. The pumps handle just about anything I put in there. They are truly high-tech and high performing. This dishwasher is so quiet you'd barely notice its pumps running.
Mine does have the plastic floor, but it holds up well with no vibration. I think my pumps are on hammocks for quiet operation.


Post# 1223911 , Reply# 40   2/8/2025 at 21:34 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
I forgot to mention...

The older Bosch dishwasher pumps would turn on, cut off for a second, then turn on again. The newer ones just slowly start up. Why do they do this? I prefer the Bosch dishwasher pumps that spray at full force constantly. To me, the slow speed of the pump has weak pressure to get to all the dishes even at the top rack unless it's at full pressure where it shoots water all the way to the top with both arms. This would be especially true when you're trying to clean deep inside glasses and food containers.
Does this mean the water pressure is weak? I want clarification to insure that the jets travel inside the machine. Sometimes on rare occasions, the pump runs at full force during final rinse. What the heck? There were times I took off the bottom arm just to be certain that the pump is shooting a ton of water through the machine at all times.




This post was last edited 02/08/2025 at 21:58
Post# 1223917 , Reply# 41   2/9/2025 at 00:04 by appnut (TX)        

appnut's profile picture
Well, Jerome it makes sense to me. There's conditioning of the dishes in the dishwasher rather than just "shock" the dishware. I trust European thought and design on this matter. I haave no complaints whatsoever. I don't ger all OCD all over the process, the results and outcome is what matters to me. They design their dishwashers to serve markets worldwide and not just here in the wild USA. IN some ways, my dishwashers in the past just bore me to death as they are just there and not much variation and surprise with results.


Post# 1223919 , Reply# 42   2/9/2025 at 00:22 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
conditioning the dishes

Oh, so maybe I'm used to the dishwasher shocking the dishes, instead of conditioning them. Maybe the spray is strong enough to flow through both arms in a flowing motion instead of just blasting motion. This may be my first encounter with a European dishwasher in an apartment setting and I'm struggling to understand what the dishwasher is doing.

Post# 1223947 , Reply# 43   2/9/2025 at 10:47 by maytaga806 (Howell, Michigan)        

The rambling never ends does it Jerome? Nobody cares dude

Post# 1223954 , Reply# 44   2/9/2025 at 13:31 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
rambling

Of course I'm rambling. What do you expect? I am so used to older dishwashers that just get to work. Maybe it's just me, but I want water to get into every single nook and cranny imaginable within the machine.

Post# 1223995 , Reply# 45   2/9/2025 at 20:35 by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture

Jerome, look into thermal shock. After a main wash, the dishware is very hot, perhaps say 150*F. When water enters the tub for rinse, particularly with long runs of water lines during the winter coupled with a water heater set to less than 120*F, the water will be cold then change to warm as its filling. It will not be 150*F. As such you've got 150*F dishware being hit with say 90*F water. To reduce stress the water is gently pulsed, gradually cooling the dishes down over a protracted period of time. 

 

 

Think take glass out of an oven, then pouring ice cold water on it. Often times it will crack or shatter. Same thing, just more extreme.  


Post# 1224019 , Reply# 46   2/10/2025 at 02:16 by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands)        

foraloysius's profile picture
Most European dishwashers are cold fill. I use the Pots and Pans cycle on my Miele most of the time at 75 degrees Celsius (167 degrees Fahrenheit). It’s cooled down a bit but for the two rinses afterwards cold water enters the machine and blasts it on the dihes. Never had something broken. So it’s a nonissue.

Post# 1224023 , Reply# 47   2/10/2025 at 06:43 by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA (considering moving to Temple, Texas))        
hot fill

Mine is hot fill. The thing I'm amazed is about the pumps and why they do what they do. I even put my ear up to the door to be sure that the jets are traveling just to be sure. The only way I can tell is that the pump has that high pitch sound to know that it's constantly running. Maybe I'm deceived into thinking that the pump stops during the wash cycle, then restarts. Most of my life I've been used to American dishwashers.


Forum Index:       Other Forums:                      



Comes to the Rescue!

The Discuss-o-Mat has stopped, buzzer is sounding!!!
If you would like to reply to this thread please log-in...

Discuss-O-MAT Log-In



New Members
Click Here To Sign Up.



                     


automaticwasher.org home
Discuss-o-Mat Forums
Vintage Brochures, Service and Owners Manuals
Fun Vintage Washer Ephemera
See It Wash!
Video Downloads
Audio Downloads
Picture of the Day
Patent of the Day
Photos of our Collections
The Old Aberdeen Farm
Vintage Service Manuals
Vintage washer/dryer/dishwasher to sell?
Technical/service questions?
Looking for Parts?
Website related questions?
Digital Millennium Copyright Act Policy
Our Privacy Policy