You have sweet heavenly dreams Jerome! I'm imagining the steam pouring out the sides during the 180*F rinse. AC running with powerful drafts to prevent humidity building up inside the place. Plates to hot to touch when taken out. The clanking of the glasses and plate being stacked. The grumble of the drain pumps as they pull in air. The snapping of internal contractors. Various indicator lights turning off and on.

It would be a fun place to visit.

Me personally I've liked to imagine apartment/condo living where people hating doing dishes. They pile all their dirty dishes dishes, pots, pans and glasses on a dumb waiter in their unit that gets sent down to the basement; or a trolley that gets left outside the door and picked up be volunteers which is taken by an elevator down to the basement. People then take each utensil, scrap, rinse and load onto racks which go into a long row of dishes-washers. Various cycles based on load- china, normal, heavy and scour. Detergent and rinse aid pumped from easy change bottles on wall mounted holders above the machines. Each load is automatically dried, then removed and placed back in the dumbwaiter or trolley to go back to the unit owners. Online stores could even offer dishes, utensils and bakeware with the option of printing or embossing the unit number or tenants name on the back of them. 

All fun things to think about.        

I bet it would smell like cascade professional. Tiled floor with a floor drain in the center of each Isle. Rolling dish-rack with different tins and holders on each level. Fluorescent strip lights with PAR38 halogen floods shinning on the sinks and dishwashers such that crispy white light is spotted on the finished rack when the door is opened. Isles would be open at both ends with dirty dishes tending to come in on one side clean dishes out the other. Waiting area with leather chairs and television showing talk shows and comedy sketch shows where the advertising in between is ripe with detergent and appliance adds. Would be nice if they also have a mini snack bar with soda and chips. It would be more for the laundry folks waiting on the half hour cycle but you'll also have dishwasher folks who are waiting on a 40 minute soak and scour cycle. There could even be a sun room over part of the waiting area like restaurants did back in the day.  I'm imagining a very vibrant color scheme for the floor, walls and ceiling.

Maybe you'll also hear the whirling water meter trying to keep up with all those gallons and gallons and GALLONS of water usage, too...

And there is also the merry sight of the electric meter-go-round, carousel-ing all that electricity all that will require!

-- Dave

Well I think you described it better than I did. Top and bottom wash arms plus two top and bottom fan spray rinse arms, see through window, interlocking channel type door seals, push button cycles with a red indicating pointer behind a glass lens driven by a rapid advance timer. Banging relays inside the console and three gauges on the front left fascia - one for the wash temperature, one for the rinse temperature and a third for the incoming water pressure. Various cycle console lights of red, amber, green, orange and white for indicating prewashing, washing, rinsing, drying, water heating, ready for next cycle, sanitation complete, ect. 

Well I'm thinking two ways:

1) A photo optic sensor in the sump that would tell the electronic control what cycle sequence to skip over or go through via fuzzy logic.

2) A pressure switch, that like on the Power-clean modules, would close when the fine filter is getting full. The pressure switch would stop the timer from rapid advancing in select increments forcing more water change outs. The pressure switch would also close seal-in relays which would force a hotter thermal hold in the main wash portion of the cycle and a hotter/longer soak and scour prewash if selected. The user could of course push a heavy wash button which would automatically force a longer, hotter main wash in that baked on soils may not come loosened enough to trigger the pressure switch during the prewash portion of the cycle and would otherwise trigger a light main-wash where in reality a heavy main wash is needed to remove the backed on soil.

The same pressure switch would then determine if extra rinses or soil flush purges are needed post main wash.

In order for the sanitized console indicator lamp to illuminate at the end of the cycle 180*F water must be sensed leaving the water inlet temperature booster and the water pressure sense switch must remain closed (10-15 psig minimum) during the rinse process. This assures that ample fans of water at a high enough temperature for a long enough period of time was sprayed over the dishes and utensils.    

I'm guessing cascade professional if users are the ones adding detergent, otherwise it would be pumped from bottles that the owner would change when they run empty.

Yes, there would be a very elaborate system of hoods running taking up all that steam.

@Niclonnic: Right, however the machines Jerome is imagining have the ability to macerate, filter and flush away soils like a Whirlpool Power Clean module. Machine would have pre washes, main wash, rinse (if needed) and of course a final 180*F fresh water rinse. At the end of the cycle a vent opens and a heated blower would dry out the dishes and the cavity. Picture a commercial dish-machine + vintage home machine rolled into one.  In fact that is how I imagine residential dishwashers in my world.

I agree hauling heavy plates and utensils would off put most people to the point they'd rather hand wash and I don't blame them. However I'd definitely like to have the imagined Hybrid dishwasher Jerome is dreaming about. I've dreamed of such machines decades. Its a shame no one have ever made one. Miele has a few that come close in concept, but not quite. 

Indeed, same design just bigger. 1 to 1.5 HP motor. Top and bottom spray arms. Hurricane in a box.  2,500 watt wash heater; 10,000 watt rinse booster heater. The machine could have a pull out dispenser for prewash, prewash 2 and main wash where people could pour in powdered cascade or their favorite pods pods. 

Good question. Thats a tough one. Since it would be burdensome to have to refill a tiny dispenser you'd have to have bottles accessed from the back of the machine that the owner would change out every week or so. There would have to be a prime button somewhere and followed by a quick purge cycle to get the machine ready for public use. 

That might be a better option as it would prevent people from overdosing on detergents or doing something not so smart like pouring half a box of cascade into the machine.

If everyone was like me, Speed Queen would have a booming dishwasher market. They'd either buy, license or have to replicate the Whirlpool Power Clean Filter module.

The machines would be built around Speed for average loads, just like the name implies. 

If everyone was like me their phone lines would crash, their Emails jammed and mail coming in van after van with people asking them to build a no-nonsense dishwasher. Speed Queen would have to publicly announce in days "We heard, we listened, we will start building dishwashers to our reputation ASAP. Now we ask that we have our email, phones and mail back LOL. :) Thank you everyone for chiming in, it was a pleasure to witness such mass societal confidence in our brand Speed Queen"   

Speed Queen dishwashers would last 30 years on average.

Jerome, you think exactly like I do. If only more people were like us!

Jerome, people sadly are asleep. The greater mass of the public will not trade capacity and inaudible quiet for a machine that actually cleans in a short amount of time. Speed Queen will essentially have to produce a new tall tub to appease to the masses, and in a market saturated with tall tubs the financial risk for Speed Queen would be much to great. Penetration will be a gamble, and just one flaw be it Speed Queen or something beyond their control (such as a supplier) will ruin the name. People will not see any advantage on the sales floor over existing tall tubs even if their are any.  

If everyone were like me the tall tubs would not have sold for long when they hit the market. Not the Maytag/Jenn-Air MDB9750s nor Pointvoyagers. GE would have been hit so hard with lawsuits and take-back demands for their leaking and cleaning disaster post 95 Potscrubbers. Dura-wash would have brought Whirlpool ear bashings. However, Powercleans would have taken off from their previous peak reaching the bulk of all buys. So much so Whirlpool would have made BOL builder grade models to TOL touch screens power-cleans. Others like GE would have had to follow suit if they wanted to compete. People would be running their own cake tests, their own particle tests, and their own soil handling tests. Their own bob load tests. Put a frosted cake in the machine, half a cup of coffee grounds, some baked on cookware, and a minced salad in the bottom of the machine. People would be amp clamping and watt metering the drive motor. If it doesn't all disappear at the end of the cycle then its not a practical dishwasher.

People would also be demanding things like double water valves and long life shaft seals. Stainless steal drain check valves that can't break off. Metal case timers. Nylon racks. Fan assisted drying.   

Parts would be plentiful and available on the sales floor.  For $155 you would be able to buy a new in-box replacement power clean module pump complete with assembly, seal, motor, start relay, and adaptation accessories. It was sad when Kenmore Ultra Cleans had to be thrown out because the pump seal leaked.

These would be available everywhere to the point Amazon would be overflowing with Chinese knockoffs as they are today with water valves and DD pumps.   

Jerome, now your thinking! You're a breath of fresh air in a world where people are afraid to think for themselves while taking everything at face value instead of being able to see the whole picture. If you want a dishwasher that actually cleans well while being energy efficient you need a large motor and a large module to process food soils. That takes space requiring a standard tub design. Not many people are willing to go back, even though you could absolutely jam pack a power clean and have everything come out clean. Tall tubs, not so much. I don't see those being able to handle things practically stacked on top of one another.

Tall tubs are to complex with to many things to fail, to difficult or impractical to service, and in an effort to save space with finicky connectors that have resulted in so many fires and recalls the NFPA's code making panel members have on record admitted AFCI and GFCI requirements are being expanded to major appliances because loose and overheated connections are a normal end of life failure mode.

Think about it Jerome. You have a product that is so poorly designed, that is so ridiculously impractical, consumers have to pay for code mandates to prevent their home from burning down. What is being saved with tall tubs? Nothing. Not the environment, not pockets, not life and property. But it sure does increase profit across several major manufacturing divisions.   

For a tall tub Speed Queen they'd have to cram a large motor and module in a very small, thin area. I'm not sure how well it could be done. The pump would also have to deal with shallow water conditions as a powerful high volume pump would leave more water in the air causing the shallow sump to dry up. So something like a real time variable speed motor might be needed. The door would also have to make a good seal/deflection system at the bottom since the water's violent sloshing could cause water to spill out the bottom. My understanding is that modern tall tubs cycle the motor after the door is opened and closed because the expanding cold air could push water up and over the bottom of the door. 

Tall tubs require a lot of logic, systems and design elements deal with the engineering challenges that come up with try to drop a dishwasher tub and door to the floor.

IMHO, it won't be enough to replicate that true power-clean volume and pressure. You need water, you need a deep sump, and you did a big motor. 

Of course, they could improvise and do what you say coming up with something that offers a power clean experience half way (ish), but such an engineering breath is a big for a virgin dishware company. 

I'm imagining a stainless steal arm with many holes like the Maytag JetClean. I think Speed Queen could improve on Maytag's tall tub design as Maytag was actually promising to the point even Whirlpool did a double take.

I think the motor would be a permanent magnet disk type because of the space constraints. Unsure if it would actually be 1/2HP in that you can only move so much water in a shallow sump. Drain pump can be beefed up a 120 watt version, I see no harm or limitation in that.

Jerome, I never though of that. Extend the sump to the floor, but have the pump and motor off to the back. You know, that just might make the dishwasher stronger. 3450 RPM I think would be a good balance between wear and impeller size. Filter between the main motor and drain pump. Particles accumulate in the horizontal filter, drain pump then sucks them out. The design would be simple yet effective. The pump would be induction or permanent magnet, no brushes, so it would sound more like an AC motor vs a DC drill.

Whirlpool standard tubs had a good quiet fill valve, that would work in a Speed Queen dishwasher.

Rinse-Aid would be like a GE standard tub, and detergent would be like a modern Maytag that slides upward. Flip lids can get caught up in pans leaning up near the door preventing the lid from opening all the way.

Washing would we swish-swish-swish. Strong jets but the stainless steal would have sound dampening on the other side. 

Jerome, dish-o-mat dreams aside, I think people are in denial. We have members here stating their modern dishwashers are clogging with food and leaving behind dirty dishes. We even have a 50 year appliance repair tech on here who admitted his tall tub was getting stinky and went back to using two Power Clean modules and won't trade them for anything. Yet despite that we've got a handful of members who claim that it is impossible for modern dishwashers to clog or leave food soil behind chastising anyone who says otherwise. 

Speed Queen would get some of their loyal customers into buying their DW if they offered one, but its a gamble. It would have to be a really good dishwasher without any initial flaws. Not likely when building something from scratch.

Speed Queens safest bet is having their name on another design already in production. Next best bet is buying or leasing a design from Whirlpool or Miele and producing it on their own. Unless the volume of demand is excellent for years to come; all the tooling, training, building and warehousing would be a loss for Speed Queen. Banks and are not likely to fund such an endeavor IMHO, and Speed Queen is much to small a company to absorb a division failure. 

What would really have to change is mass perception. People are going to have to truly want something different than what is already out there. If everyone were like me it would be a no brainier. Speed Queen would mold a standard tub quietly behind the scenes, stick a 1 HP motor in it, add a self cleaning filter, maceration, 3 wash arms and an EM timer. Once released it would sell into the millions- off setting any start up investment. Whirlpool and others would be forced to replicate the same design if they wanted anymore DW businesses. Everyone would be happy.

Unfortunately society is not there yet. We are, but you and me are only a small enlightened minority. 

Let me address these one by one.

Nobody out there that has a full functioning modern dishwasher is complaining about it.

Many people are complaining, just read the rather plentiful internet dialogue about modern appliances. Most of which state the same shortfalls over and over again. 

My mom did at first when their new GE took 3hrs to wash. But all the new machines are 1.5-2 times larger than old ones”fast” standard tub machines.

 

 

Not by much when you can't absolutely jam pack the machine with most everything overlapping and stacked on top of one another. 

And everyone’s dishes are clean.

 

Only when they start pre-rinsing and prepping excessively. Consumers eventually fold modifying behavior until desired results are achieved. 

 

If they’re not clean, they’re loading it wrong, using terrible detergent, or it’s broken and needs fixing.

 

 

The term here is gaslighting. Consumers' lived experiences are blamed, shammed and invalidated at no fault of their own. Its a rather cruel and mentally unhealthy thing to do.  

 

 

People just load them up the whole day and run them overnight.
And if you need dishes in a hurry, almost all machines today have a 30-60min cycle.  

 

Those half baked short cycles do an even worse job of cleaning than those mediocre overnight cycles. 

Even my “ancient” KUDS25 PC dishwasher runs for an hour and 15min with dry time.
What is all the hurry?

 

Only due to baseless energy regulations beginning to take effect. 

With hotter inlet temps that time will shorten to 60 minutes on heavy wash with heavy soil detected and 38 minutes on normal wash with a light soil detected. 

If Whirlpool could increase the number of water change outs those cycle times would be even shorter.

In any case I'll take a 1 hour power-clean cycle over a 2-3 hour tall tall tub any day.  

And do you two like paying out the nose for water?
My own water bills have doubled in the last 5yrs and I’m next to the world’s largest body of fresh water.  

 

You use far less water loading dishes into a machine that uses 8-13.5 gallons of water per cycle than doing extensive pre-rinsing prior to loading in a modern machine that uses 3-6 gallons of water per cycle.     

Enjoy yourselves on the island of misfit toys.

 

 

This is only temporary. With modern life gradually becoming more difficult for everyone living it while preexisting injustices simultaneously become less tolerable a revolution is inevitable. 

John, that doesn't answer the question I've asked in a previous thread. 

If you claim that tall tubs do so well, and the only bad thing you've said are that Point Voyagers don't clean well in the upper rack, then why do you have so many posts saying how tall tubs have not worked out for you? That they have poor overall performance, that they leave food bits behind, that the filter gets stinky, that they smell bad, that they don't dry well, that they have numerous other faults.  

Reply #7:

http://www.automaticwasher.org/c...

Reply #1:

http://www.automaticwasher.org/c...

Yes member on here say they are satisfied with their tall tubs. However there are also members who prefer vintage machines. Members who claim to have gotten or are getting poor results from their tall tubs. Members who pre-rinse their dishes.  

Clearly there is anecdotal evidence not in favor of tall tubs, the most profound being you John of all people.  

So how do you explain the stink your tall tubs produced?