Nobody is being negative and nobody is being delusional because the other side is being fundamentally disingenuous.  

Older water using appliances did cycles in less time and cleaned just as well if not better.  (Even quick wash on tall tubs tends to use more water and energy) No error codes, no stinky filters, no exploding washing machines. Warranty calls are down sure, as are both longevity and durability.  

If anything those throwing stones are the ones pontificating hot air. Here we have a repair tech let it slip to poor cleaning, stinky filters, food bits being left behind, poor drying, and a myriad of other problems involving HE tall tubs- such that he went back to using non HE standard tubs:

Reply #7:

http://www.automaticwasher.org/c...

Reply #1:

http://www.automaticwasher.org/c...

He then proceeds to invalidate anyone who says they've had the exact same problems. I am glad he has been saying such, because he has now opened my eyes to a profound truth.

Jerome, what these people are saying does not reflect their lived experiences in any way, shape or form. They had and are having the same experiences as us and as most Americans. The difference between them and us is that they lie and then proceed to attack anyone who speaks the truth. I can acknowledge the truth no matter how painful it is, they can't.    

Same could be said about the same lies being repeated over and over.

"We at AW all know these things so you need to rant to them, not us, constantly "

 

 

I want to say thank you for being honest here. Everyone knows modern HE appliances are either mediocre or short lived. The difference being some are more honest about it than others. Hence the so called "rants" pointing out that misinformation. 

William, I don't have you in mind.

I have the example used in Reply #46 in mind.

Whenever someone says they are getting poor results from HE appliances, or that they break down prematurely, they are gaslit by a small contingent of this site. 

You choose Speed Queen because you knew it would last and last unlike a modern GE.

Because they can not handle the truth.

Blocking users speaks more about the person doing the blocking than it does for those pointing out blatant contradictions. 

EPA reversals shift discretion to where it belongs: the customer.

Jerome, millions of Americans feel the way you do. Millions have experienced stinky water using appliances, appliances that don't clean, throw error, break down prematurely, are not economical to fix, wear out clothes, require pre washing/pre treatment, and the list goes on. 

All because of energy regs trying to do what can not be done in the first place. 

The whole goal of democracy is discretion, power and education resting in the average in person. The average person is at the top, the average person is the ruling class unlike most societies which have existed beforehand. Government overreach goes against everything which gave rise to the advancements and achievements of modern civilization. The whole purpose of government is to uphold and defend freedom and human rights. Not to take such away from people.

So your Saying Combo52 (John) is being lazy with his washing habits and/or misusing his dishwasher?  

And the 3 up-voters (thus far) agree with your postulate?  

Thank you for adding this to the record.

"Chet and Jerome, you get on here just ranting and raving, but new dishwashers and new appliances don’t work because of government regulations and yet you both own new energy star dishwashers and you don’t seem to have any complaints with them. "

 

Oh, I've got complaints about my energy star appliances. Hence my passion. My less than 10 year old dishwasher's wheel pins are falling out and ending up burning up around the heating element. The dispenser fills with water to the point the pre-wash water gets sudsy. I can't stack things on top of one another as I would in my Power Clean. Backed on egg pans leave egg bits around the sump grates that otherwise get pulled into the PC sump. That means extra prep and pre-rinsing. Cycle times take two hours. 

My dryer lacks a real, realistic timed dry cycle where as my previous Kenmore 70-90 series dryers offered a full 90 minute timed dry or a long auto dry. No silly shortened sensor dry with wrinkle guard that you can't turn off.

The front burner on my Stove just went out. The membrane broke two years ago. My over the range microwave cooks and splatters food so evenly I was celebrating when the interlocks gave out finally having an excuse to buy a real microwave. Which you said would never cook evenly because of the lack of turn table which is so far away from my lived reality. Food comes out looking and tasting like food with the only difference being the just right temperature.   

The old school Speed Queen on the other hand has given me zero problems except an easy water valve change out. No off balance issues, no major failures, no error codes. Perfectly clean clothing washed in hot or warm water all done in 30 minutes. 

"I work on several dishwashers every week customers are not complaining in general. That new dishwashers aren’t working well and that their old dishwashers worked better that’s just not the reality. Look at all the examples on this site of people that are thrilled with their current dishwashers whether their Bosch KitchenAid GE even some Samsung and LG owners here that are very happy."

 

 

Only because customers are already pre-rinsing their dishes.

"And you two don’t seem to even complain about your own modern dishwashers Lol"

 

Because I'd rather have a Power Clean. 

 

''The number one complaint about the good old Hobart KitchenAid dishwashers from the 6070s 80s was they don’t clean well. This was the number one service call, things to go wrong with new dishwashers too that caused them not to clean well at times and they need repair.''

 

Right, they had too short main wash and relatively uneven water distribution. Power Clean versions resolved this and other imperfections.

 

 

"There is no evidence that new appliances are lasting any less time than older ones. You can always find an example of one that didn’t last, but many of the appliances being sold today will be going strong in 30 years."

 

If you mean scientifically controlled and certified studies yes there aren't many that I know of. I'll give you that. The real world says otherwise, however.

"Chet I never said that I had a stinky tall tub dishwasher. The only dishwasher I ever complained about that I had in my home that got stinky was my KDSS 20, because the other dishwasher I had was a power clean I was used to putting things in so dirty that the food that would lay in the bottom of the KitchenAid would get stinky. It also had a much less effective drying system so it tended to be moist and stinky inside at times."

 

 

By 2011 all new TOL GEs were tall tubs. 2000 you installed a free TT Kitchen-Aid, a year latter you tried a tall tub GE. That puts us around 2001 assuming you installed the TT KA very early in the year 2000. Then came a standard tub GE. Assuming you kept it for only a few months, you used the KUDSS-20 for 10 years. So that puts as at minimum around mid 2011. Most probability with all said and done around 2013.     

Ok, lets assume by NEW you meant a new old stock standard tub dishwasher. Or a new MOL electronic model that could've past as TOL at first glance.  

That doesn't change the fact you directly admitted to being dissatisfied with two tall tub dishwashers. One where you explicitly stated "poor performance" and the other "...that is about all I can say good about it" 

Any reasonable person would at minimum assume that your tall tubs did a poor job of removing soil from dishes. Which you repeatedly stated was not an issue with tall tubs.

Given that GLD5600VBB was already being sold on the market in mid 2010 while the tall tub platform was working its way down the GE DW line, it is not a stretch to assume your NEW TOL GE dishwasher was a tall tub which you explicitly stated "it always smelled bad".  

There is no right in this country to harm other people that’s why you’re not allowed to smoke an airplanes and grocery stores, strong majority of Americans want energy consumption reduced so that we have a fighting chance to survive a couple more generations so our kids and grandkids can enjoy this earth.

John L

 

 

It is not about how the energy is used, rather how said energy is produced. 

The US is based on a free, open market where people can choose what they buy. 

That is probably the biggest issue for myself. In 1985 you could buy a Pot-scrubber that would last 40 years and have a very low probability of a warranty call. 

Today, not so much. Water restrictions force complexity that increases the probability of failure, make repair more difficult or down right impractical, and electronics which have a finite life expectancy. An analog mechanism can last 100 years and does not age when not in use. An electrolytic capacitor on the other hand ages by just being plugged in and lasts about 30 years on the optimistic end. 

Replacing an appliance every 5-10 years produces more waste long term. 

Yes, simply put what Chetlatham just explained--and to me a good end of story...

Appliances should not be just thrown out, that will create much more waste & toxic our environment much more then hanging onto and investing much more life in, and maybe somehow reinventing its own energy efficiency, if not at least the efficiency of more years of it working properly...!

-- Dave

85 dishwasher John. Not 90.

Have a look at reply #71.

This is what we mean when we say you twist and/or misquote people's words then resort to childish attacks when called out on it.

Appliances were more expensive because they had more raw material in them. If you take the cost of a $1,500 TC Speed Queen which has comparable build quality to a vintage washer and adjust for the cost of inflation it would be $508 in 1985. $508 is about what an average 2 speed 5 cycle extra large capacity washer would cost in 1985. I say about because yes you will find + or - 50 dollar deviations.

As raw material prices have gone up manufacturers have gradually cheapened machines to keep sale prices from rising as fast as inflation.

I don't deny your lived experience or what you witnessed. However if you take a look at rental properties and condos where GE appliances were installed by the hundreds of thousands if not millions across the US and Canada it is very much the norm for 80s GE appliances to last 30 years with minimal repairs. There are still basic Potscrubbers from 1983-1989 going to this day. 80s washers,  dryers and stoves. Half the time they are replaced not because they are broken, rather outdated in the eyes of today's tenants. Not to mention all the OPL and laundromat machines that have gone 15-20 years with daily use.

I don't consider you as a little kid. You were able to articulate a constructive on topic reply without resorting to personal attacks, name calling or unfounded rumors.

It depends on when they were renovated, and what was installed at the time of build. If the Apartments were built any time before 1983/1984, ~50/50 chance they would've had a Plastisol dishwashers in them. Given that plastisol tubs rust in about 10 years, by the late 80s/early 90s the replacements would've been commencing. 

In fact GE knew very well they had some of the shortest lasting dishwashers in the 1970s. Around that time GE became serious and began planning, engineering and finally gradually phasing their Permatuff line which was completely re-engineered from the ground up. Their serious attempt resulted in some of the longest lasting dishwashers ever made and longevity went up in general across their entire appliance lineup. 

By the time the early 90s came around, GE began to slowly reverse their efforts and what came in the late 90s/early 2000s set the stage for them selling to Haier.    

The handful of parts that are physically interchangeable between plastisol and permatuff minus the water valve, door latch, upper rack guide, and screws; had engineering, design or build modifications done to them. Such as the pump bodies being re-shaped to have less carry over water, the pop-up tower water distribution slots changed, number of wash arm holes consolidated, drain solenoid encapsulation and drain bracket design changed, lower rack wheels, ect. Beyond these changes the rest was a totally new design.

Just about every single part was re-examined, reconsidered, recalculated, re-tested and modified as needed to fulfill GE's new goals. Some engineering changes were relatively minor like the spray arm hub, while others were a completely new design like the permatuff tub and door, detergent cams, detergent cups, vent system, heater, timer, sump boot, sump grates, fascia molding, door hinges, motor mount, float, wire harness, cycle sequence, and the list goes on. 

Just because a handful of parts are interchangeable between permatuff and plastisol, doesn't mean they have not been re-engineered in some way. In fact the same pump and motor assembly between 1967 and 2007 has probably endured at least four dozen engineering revisions everywhere from the motor bearings to the size of the drain port to the macerator to the seals to the motor's protector to the drain flapper, ect despite the fact said pumps are physically interchangeable between so many models.  

GE dishwashers peaked between 1983 and 1991. After that the decline began. 

Jerome,
I have been washing our dishes by hand since April 2018 and I and my husband NEVER get sick! The last time I had the flu was over 20 years ago when I was still working and exposed to sick people on a daily basis.

Using a dishwasher be it a 1960’s water hog or a new model is no guarantee for avoidance of illness.

The reasons that people have health problems is because many people are PIGS with utter disregard for proper sanitation in all phases of their lives! Plus they fail to get vaccinated against preventable illnesses due to their warped view points on recommended preventative health.

If this is all you have to worry about you’re not paying attention to the world around you.

No one wants to be subjected to your endless rants about things you have no control over. I stand by my recommendation that you get a life, you’ll be much happier and live longer without the needless stress you’re subjecting yourself to.

Eddie

The downfall of US front loaders are the lack of heated cycles. All front load cycles should heat the water to a target temperature based on the fabric type with detergent working in stages. This has been the key to FL success throughout most of the world. 

I actually considered buying a Speed Queen front load in 2012-2013 however what put me off was the lack of onboard heater. A heater with each cycle heating to a wash temp of say 20*C for colors, 30*C for handwash, 40*C for delicate, 50*C for Casuals, 60*C for normal, 70*C towels, 80*C Heavy, 90*C whites, 100*C sanitize I think would have been ideal. 

Or a separate temperature knob labeled like this:

@MrStickball: What I've been saying in 4,130 post, you just said it much more eloquently and summed up in one post.  

There is an engineer on here (Thomas Ortega) who said nearly the exact same thing backing up your statement. 

Companies force engineers to build ultra cheap machines, and consumers essentially demand them. 

The only thing that will change anything is a mass shift in thinking.

@DaDoEs: If consumers demanded that energy restrictions went away, they would. The people are the other side of the government having the final say.

Right, hence why I used the word "mass". At least tens of millions of people would have to start asking for more durable appliances and/or start buying the remaining few like Speed Queen for competitors to follow suite. It is a dream of mine. What that will take will be a revolution, and perhaps a new generation, but I sometimes have my doubts. I feel like things will stagnate and the universe will pass away in a slow heat death. 

There are two types of expensive: One that buys material durability, the other that buys features and cycles. People mistakenly believe features and cycles that they'll never use are signs of progress. Its a marketing ploy to get people to hand over money while getting nothing practical in return.   

John- you, me and Jerome both know what you're really trying to accomplish when you use anonymous and credibility in the same sentence.  

I am a United States Citizen, a consumer and a user of home appliances. I am very much entitled to my lived experience.

John is wrong again in front of the blocked contingent- my Microwave was made Thailand, not China.

If you read the reviews there are many using strong language in favor of the even cooking, performance and reasonable build quality for the listed price. Customers, including myself, truly feel like they got a bang for the buck.      

 https://shorturl.at/NVIQn

https://shorturl.at/Olaxu

 Ie, the "Microwave of the Gods"

 Better than any turntable, can defrost on full power:

If you want to make an account and tell over 110 users that they've wrong in feeling so elated, go right ahead.

However, if anything, this shows that you believe reasonable performance can not come at a reasonable price. Or tolerate others being happy.

And now a musical interlude...

?si=vd4O72edH0AKAR4Y

Large amounts of natural gas and oil are being burned every day because wind, solar and hydro are not viable, practical, economical, or manageable. And probably never will be. Solar panels on your roof don't count for the actual amount of energy society uses. 

Let alone the fact modern appliances actually waste energy as just on example of being sent to landfills every 5-10 years when the technology exists to build them running 60+ years.

There's no capacitor on a well tank or switch.