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Thread Number: 21957
Kenmore/WP vs Others For Rinsing Ability |
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| Post# 344956 , Reply# 1 4/26/2009 at 18:16 (5,478 days old) by j2400 () | ||
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I probably should have titled this differently--although one big question on my mind with neutral drain vs spin drain is whether spin drain might work better for rinsing. | ||
Post# 344964 , Reply# 2 4/26/2009 at 19:10 (5,478 days old) by yogitunes  (New Jersey) |
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my opinion is that the spindrain machines seem to extract more water than the neutral drain, but that could just be rpm...a real benefit i seem to like about spindrain is that during the first part of the spin, the water flows up and over top and back into the machine which kinda cleans the whole interior where as any scum at the top of the water level of neutral drain clings to the top and sides of the outer tub....and that can build up over time and cause problems and odors
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Post# 345011 , Reply# 4 4/26/2009 at 23:37 (5,478 days old) by jons1077 (Vancouver, Washington, USA) |
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Davek,
Someone at Whirlpool felt the same way as you at some point. They made a DD model Kenmore for a while that had the selling point of using less water by eliminating the deep rinse completely. It had the normal full wash, neutral drain, went through several minutes of long spray rinses, then continued spinning the clothes dry. I believe it supposedly used 25-30% less water when washed on the highest water level. Jon | ||
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Post# 345012 , Reply# 5 4/27/2009 at 00:04 (5,478 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Spin Rinse Only
Has been tried on various vintage washing machines (Hoover and other twin tub units, amoung others) and can still be found on some washing machines. Problem comes in designing a system so water is not merely bounced off laundry and sent down the drain, as the washer spins. Rinsing is a process of dilution. In a spin rinse only, one must allow laundry to absorb a high level of water, to the point of saturation or even over saturation, then extract. This process must be repeated enough times to get the job done. Obviously aiming a spray of water going full force at a fast moving tub with laundry is not going to get satisfactory results. Many modern units slow spin speed down to allow for the saturation of laundry, while spraying water. Spray is then stopped and machine ramps back up to full speed to extract. Again, this process is repeated over and over. Having just spent Saturday using the Hoover TT for doing a large load of sheets, am here to tell you that while spin rinsing can indeed give good results, it can also lead to lots of creasing. Spin rinses tend to work better on loads of "small" items. Large things such as blankets and or several sheets can be rather hit or miss, IMHO. Oh yes, depending upon the design of the system, and machine capacity, one is going to need a pretty robust motor and pump to cope with handling a continous heavy load over several "spin rinse" cycles, followed by a final high speed spin dry. There is also the problem of coping with excess foam and or suds lock. L. | ||
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Post# 345013 , Reply# 6 4/27/2009 at 00:12 (5,478 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Whirlpool had the Resource Saver model as well. F&P has had shower rinsing for years, with further adjustment for the volume of water used. Shower rinse is the default for Regular & Heavy Duty cycles on the EcoSmart models, with a deep agitated rinse tagged as the Softener Rinse option. My 1999 GWL08 and 2004 IWL12 do deep rinsing as the default, with shower rinse as an option. It works a little different. All the sprays aren't at full spin speed, there are a couple saturation-flush periods at 25 RPM with the pump running. | ||
| Post# 345017 , Reply# 8 4/27/2009 at 02:41 (5,478 days old) by maytagbear (N.E. Ohio) | ||
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I never liked the neutral drain Never. I may be very incorrect, but it just seemed like the dirty wash water was better spun out, instead of being drawn through the clothes. Again, I may be wrong, but that's how it seems to me. Lawrence/Maytagbear | ||
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Post# 345020 , Reply# 9 4/27/2009 at 03:42 (5,478 days old) by launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Cannot speak for all, modern or otherwise front loaders, but on the "normal" and "Permanent Press" cycles, my Miele washer tumbles to and fro when draining wash and rinse water. Thus laundry does not merely sit in the tub whilst water is drained through. The commercial SQ washers at the local laundromat do the exact same thing. Another thing my Miele does is adds water to the wash cycle before draining wash water. Granted this is done to "cool" the water to prevent shocking textiles when going from hot to very hot to boiling wash temps down to cold. However it does begin the dilution process necessary for good rinsing. L. | ||
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Post# 345024 , Reply# 10 4/27/2009 at 04:23 (5,478 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 345031 , Reply# 11 4/27/2009 at 07:40 (5,478 days old) by turquoisedude (.) |
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| Post# 345078 , Reply# 14 4/27/2009 at 11:24 (5,478 days old) by rpm () | ||
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When did the Kenmores stop having the 4 sprays, deep rinse and 4 more sprays? Mine just has a deep rinse and two sprays. I always thought it was better to have them after the wash cycle and would rinse away the suds. | ||
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Post# 345102 , Reply# 16 4/27/2009 at 13:28 (5,478 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Resource Saver Spray Rinse System | ||
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Post# 345109 , Reply# 17 4/27/2009 at 14:07 (5,478 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Couple of Kenmore thoughts....
Davek - You are right on target with the dirt and oils as to how they leave a Kenmore/Whirlpool's tub. In many machines I've seen, some detergents, especially powders, will form a white barrier on the bottom of the tub. It can occasionally be a dirty-colored barrier as well. I always figured this was heavier-than-water sand and substrate from detergents coupled with some dirt. As well, I have seen many a machine have a scum buildup around the top of the tub where the high-water marks are. This is usually a layer about 1.5 inches wide, and can usually be removed using a paint scraper. Kinda the more gross part of washer work. RPM - I was wondering the same thing regarding the spray rinses on Kenmores. As far as I've seen, most all the domestic, full-size belt drives had the four sprays, followed by deep rinse, followed by four sprays. This I understand varied a little bit in 1960s BOL machines. My very late built 1986 machine has the four and four, as has every other machine I've worked on that had its replacement timer wired properly. One of the more common replacement timers won't spray rinse at all unless a jumper wire is spliced in, which some lazy servicers seem to choose not to do. The oldest direct-drive machine I ever experimented with (from 1988) had the two sprays only in the final spin, but I totally agree with you - the spray rinses might be more useful in between wash and the deep rinse. In my 1993 DD I used to complain about the lack of pre-rinse sprays, as that machine often suds locked when it was really new. Gordon | ||
| Post# 345138 , Reply# 19 4/27/2009 at 18:19 (5,477 days old) by rickr (.) | ||
I agree.... | ||
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Post# 345142 , Reply# 20 4/27/2009 at 18:28 (5,477 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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John, there's no such thing as "declutching" during spray rinses on a belt-drive Kenmore or Whirlpool. Spin may slow a little due to drag of the accumulated water (or suds lock) until the pump drains it away, but the clutch doesn't disengage. The mechanism has three modes: agitate, spin, and neutral drain. Agitate and spin are mutually exclusive of each other, unless the mechanism is broken. Shifting into/out of agitate controls water recirculation vs. drain by a mechanical linkage to a valve lever on the pump. Machines that don't have a recirculating filter (either the waterfall type or the hidden self-clean) still have the pump valve, which functions to block the drain port during agitation and open the drain port when not agitating. Neutral drain is simply the motor, pump and transmission running with neither agitate or spin engaged. If not spinning, then the basket brake is engaged.
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Post# 345171 , Reply# 22 4/27/2009 at 19:48 (5,477 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Steve, that is true, of course. Enough water, kicked up high enough during spin, would trigger the water level switch ... but that isn't normal operation. My dad ran a service station (Gulf, anyone?), so there were plenty greasy/oily work clothes run through the 1962 Whirly. Hot water was rarely used, warm was the recipe of choice, but of course with a warm rinse. LOTS of suds-locks (with Tide, of course!) I don't recall a scum ring in the basket or on the agitator, although I'm sure there were deposits in the outer tub. We had that machine (LJA-3200) for 14½ years, replaced with the LDA-7800. | ||
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Post# 345331 , Reply# 24 4/28/2009 at 15:24 (5,476 days old) by dadoes (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Tide
Well, Steve, dad had the station from 1959 (through 1984, 25 years? 27 years? 1989, 30 years? I don't recall now when he sold-out the business) so I'm sure it was phosphated back in the day. They did use Tide there for washing the service bay concrete floors and front lot. Bought it by the case, so we always had it at home also. Which is one of the reasons it was so hard to get mom to try different detergents (Salvo, Dash, All, Oxydol, Cold Power, etc.). As many times as the LJA-3200 suds-locked, I don't remember it triggering the water level switch, so must not have been very often if it did. I know spin slowed down to a *crawl* in the worst blockages so maybe it didn't kick the accumulated water up high enough. I was quite surprised when the LDA-7800 arrived as it *rarely* suds-locked. | ||
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Post# 345349 , Reply# 25 4/28/2009 at 16:41 (5,476 days old) by kenmoreguy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Steve & Glen - Regarding suds locks in Whirlpool belt-drives.....I think a suds-lock re-trigger of the level switch depends on the setting in the level switch (lower levels being easier to re-trigger than high settings), but most importantly the condition of the fill-control hose on the earlier machines and the air dome in the later ones. The rubber fill control hose that supplies air pressure to the level switch in the 60s machines could get clogged with lint, suds residue and minerals, thereby narrowing it like plaque in human arteries. It would then take less pressure and less water/suds sloshing around to trigger a partially loaded fill control hose than it would a new one. The drawbacks with this hose were the reason behind Whirlpool going to the separate chamber shaped air dome. This too can get build-up in it, but it has less of an effect. In your machine Steve, I'd be willing to bet that it's pristine condition at least partially explains it's behavior. Personally, I seldom see a suds-lock in a belt-drive, and that's with 44 years experience using them. I believe that to be due to my mother's use of low sudsing detergents and mine as well, coupled with the large capacity machines that I use at times which have a monstrous tub drain hose as compared to the standard tub. Suds don't remain in the tub nearly as long with those large outlet hoses. Gordon | ||
| Post# 345367 , Reply# 26 4/28/2009 at 19:22 (5,476 days old) by jdinstl () | ||
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DADoES... ...thank you for the explanation. Like I said, I was not sure (in other words, have no clue as to what I was talking about) And it was a long time ago. Thanks again! :-) John | ||
| Post# 345462 , Reply# 27 4/29/2009 at 11:35 (5,476 days old) by bobbyderegis (Boston) | ||
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Has anyone noticed how clear and suds free the rinse water is on a GE Filter-Flo? No matter how big of a suds cake in the wash, they always seem to rinse clear. Bobby in Boston | ||
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Post# 345486 , Reply# 28 4/29/2009 at 13:56 (5,476 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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To see the difference in the spin vs. neutral drain machines, you only need to disassemble a Maytag and WP/KM machine at the same time. You won't need a scraper to remove any detergent/softener/filth residue in a Maytag, it likely won't have any at all. IMO, a washer that cannot keep itself clean isn't worth the metal (or plastic) it's made of, no matter how lenient Sears' credit terms were that accounted for most of their sales. That being said, I still love the "personality" of the Kenmore/Whirlpool washers, in spite of, or maybe because of the silliness of their belt-driven madness! | ||
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