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Thread Number: 29777
Cascade phosphate free is getting TERRIBLE reviews by customers! |
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| Post# 452635 7/28/2010 at 19:31 (5,026 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
Check out the reviews so far on the Cascadeclean.com website (see link below).....I will say this, the ONLY problem I am having with the new Cascade powder is when it comes to Pots and Pans....I don't notice white film all over everything. But I washed a pan that had stuck on food and by the end of the cycle, there was like a white powder on it. I think I'm going to buy some STPP. Check out the reviews.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO mark_wpduet's LINK | ||
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Post# 452641 , Reply# 1 7/28/2010 at 19:59 (5,026 days old) by Frigilux  (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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I have mechanically-softened water, and all the Cascade phosphate-free products I use (regular pacs, Complete pacs, Complete gel) are working fantastically, pots/pans included.
There has been no loss of cleaning power at all in my experience. No trace of the white film on plastics, either. I'm sure the negative reviews will get the wizards in the chem lab working on improving the formula. Case in point: Amway discontinued its excellent aerosol stain pre-treater (great for greasy stains) and replaced it with what is, apparently, garbage. The universally negative user reviews at the site prompted Amway to promise the aerosol formula will return to their product line later in 2010. | ||
| Post# 452655 , Reply# 2 7/28/2010 at 21:01 (5,026 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains ) | ||
I was reading those last night.What is so funny, but stupid is how much in denial Cascade is about it.They claim it's the best stuff and try to turn it around and blame you for it water temp, wrong cycle,etc.That is not working well for them cause over 90% of the reviews are terrible.. I agree with them Cascade is terrible now.I was wondering what is in the dishwashing detergents in the U.K.? They work from what I have heard but cascade can't at all unless I add STTP in my dishwasher.
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| Post# 452656 , Reply# 3 7/28/2010 at 21:01 (5,026 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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| Post# 452668 , Reply# 4 7/28/2010 at 22:25 (5,026 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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Cascades Sh*tting Action They do have "water softener" in it-sodium carbonate aka washing soda. It combines with calcium and magnesium in hard water forming limestone(calcium carbonate) which is why you see a chalk like residue now. Pity! | ||
| Post# 452670 , Reply# 5 7/28/2010 at 22:27 (5,026 days old) by A440 () | ||
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All that I can see when I pull up the link are the "good reviews". Where are the bad reviews? Would love to read them. I don't like this new and "Improved" Cascade crap. I have been getting better cleaning with Walmart's "Great Value" dishwasher detergents. Brent | ||
| Post# 452671 , Reply# 6 7/28/2010 at 22:39 (5,026 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio) | ||
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Some store brand dishwasher detergents depending on size, shelf turnover, and so on, still have phosphate, so it pays to read labels, and look at other brands beside the big two. (Cascade and Finish, alphabetical order.) Lawrence/Maytagbear | ||
| Post# 452673 , Reply# 7 7/28/2010 at 23:07 (5,026 days old) by A440 () | ||
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Hi Lawrence, Obviously the word got out about the change. I can't find any dishwasher detergents in the Atlanta area with Phosphates. :( Brent | ||
| Post# 452682 , Reply# 8 7/28/2010 at 23:32 (5,026 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio) | ||
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That's unfortunate, Brent! Even the cheap store brand ones? L/Mb | ||
| Post# 452683 , Reply# 9 7/28/2010 at 23:33 (5,026 days old) by A440 () | ||
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Si. I look everywhere. I can't even find the Finish additive here. Anyone in the Atlanta area have any luck? Brent | ||
| Post# 452693 , Reply# 10 7/28/2010 at 23:51 (5,026 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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The bad reviews are there. You have to look under the first review to click "next" to go to the next review page. I think out of all of those reviews, there is only one good one and Cascade has that one good one on the front. You basically have to scroll through each review one page at a time. For some reason, when you click "read all reviews" it goes back to the main page.
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Post# 452699 , Reply# 11 7/29/2010 at 00:14 (5,026 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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| Post# 452702 , Reply# 12 7/29/2010 at 00:44 (5,026 days old) by volsboy1 (East Tenn Smoky mountains ) | ||
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Brent I found some at Walgreens..I had to pull out about the first 5 boxes then the rest was all the good stuff.My Aunt who lives in Buckhead found some there also.You won't find it at any food store but there was alot at every Walgreens I have been to.The only bad thing is the boxes are small and were 7 bucks.
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Post# 452706 , Reply# 14 7/29/2010 at 01:23 (5,026 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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That Cascade site is very poorly designed, unless they are trying to trip people up and perhaps steer them away from the huge numbers of bad reviews.
I think someone posted recently about Big Lots having phosphated detergents there, which makes sense since a lot of what they sell is close-out merchandise. I stocked up on Cascade-with-Dawn powder at Walgreens and ACE Hardware a while back so I'm in good shape and maybe by the time I run out, the problem will have been fixed. It's not just Cascade. It's all brands. My "WTF is wrong with the dishwasher?" experience was provided courtesy of non-phosphate (in the smallest of print) Finish powder back in April. I'm glad to see that de-phosphating has impacted people with later model machines too, so it's not like P & G et al can tell people their dishwasher is too old. The silver lining is that maybe some people will in fact replace their older machines, and people like us will see some nice ones showing up on CL for cheap or free that have nothing whatsoever wrong with them. | ||
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Post# 452713 , Reply# 17 7/29/2010 at 01:59 (5,026 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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I suppose one could get carried away with a conspiracy theory between the U.S. Congress, the big detergent outfits, and the appliance manufacturers but the reality is that there would only be a temporary spike in dishwasher sales. P&G cites "state and local" regulations regarding phosphates as the reason legislation was passed to eliminate them so it's hard to know who exactly to blame for this mess.
My concern would be for the consumer who thinks something is wrong with their machine, calls a dealer/servicer to come take a look, and gets sold a new machine instead of being told to go buy some STPP. I saw a 70+ couple looking at dishwashers at OSH recently. The wife was checking them out as the husband sat and watched. I immediately wondered if lack of phosphates prompted the presumed need to replace their existing machine. Had the sales person not have been right there, I would have gone up and spoken with them if only to advise that the Mrs. would likely end up longing for her old machine if she replaced it with a lethargic new one. | ||
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Post# 452726 , Reply# 19 7/29/2010 at 07:35 (5,026 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md) |
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DISHWASHER CLEANING PROBLEMS WITH NEW DETERGENTS
&GOur company has done well over 100 service calls for poorly performing dishwashers this year alone that we traced to people using no phosphate detergents. I do think it will lead to a surge of dishwasher sales that will last for many years. The new detergents will work quite well if you have very soft water, I think water softener sales well pickup a lot also. I don't think most US manufactures are going to install built-in water softeners in thier machines anytime soon but I do think you will start seeing them on higher end models, I know WP is working on them. You can buy commercial dishwasher detergent which will usually still have phosphates in them, restaurants, schools nursing homes etc were exempted from the ban due to some good lobbying. I think this will become a minor campaign issue in some areas and the ban my be lifted because of voter outrage. And if this is affecting you the best place to complain is to your representatives in your state an in the US congress. I don't think a cure is coming from P etc this has been an issue that the detergent makers have worked on for over 30 years and unless there is a major breakthrough it won't be solved by them.
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Post# 452727 , Reply# 20 7/29/2010 at 07:42 (5,026 days old) by lovestowash (St. Petersburg, FL) |
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Hey Brent... | ||
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Post# 452730 , Reply# 21 7/29/2010 at 07:50 (5,026 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!) |
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My parents have mechanically softened water and noticed the chalky film in their new Bosch within two loads of using the phosphate free detergent. We mixed STPP with the detergent in an airtight container and they're back to perfect cleaning results every time. (the wet, clammy dishes is another issue!)
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| Post# 452763 , Reply# 24 7/29/2010 at 12:02 (5,026 days old) by A440 () | ||
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Thanks George, Will check it out! Brent | ||
| Post# 452767 , Reply# 25 7/29/2010 at 12:16 (5,026 days old) by A440 () | ||
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Hi John, Thanks for the information. I think the questions has come up before...but where can you buy the commercial dishwasher detergent? Online? Walk in supply companies? Thanks! Brent | ||
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Post# 452769 , Reply# 26 7/29/2010 at 12:17 (5,026 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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| Post# 452778 , Reply# 27 7/29/2010 at 12:58 (5,026 days old) by golittlesport (California) | ||
Interesting
Suddenly our dishes were covered with a chalky-like film a while back and so Gary started washing them by hand. He has been lobbying for a new dishwasher, thinking our 10-year old Whirlpool Gold is broken. I checked it out and ran it with some white vinegar to clean it out and told him there was nothing wrong with the machine. I had suspected the detergent he was using (had bought some Amway from a friend) but when we switched to Finish, the problem continued. Now I know to get some STPP.
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| Post# 452819 , Reply# 28 7/29/2010 at 16:10 (5,026 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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And when you use STPP in your dishwasher the insides will sparkle again like new! | ||
| Post# 452866 , Reply# 29 7/29/2010 at 20:39 (5,025 days old) by gmmcnair (Portland, OR) | ||
I haven't really been affected.... | ||
| Post# 452881 , Reply# 30 7/29/2010 at 21:29 (5,025 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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Citric acid
I'm almost out of the citric acid powder I have but I've been adding it along with the dishwasher detergent for a long time. I'm using the new Cascade and I'm not seeing the white chalky film on anything unless it was a super dirty pot and pan, and that just wipes right off easily, but I'm wondering if the citric acid I'm using is why? I'm going to buy some STPP next.
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| Post# 452895 , Reply# 31 7/29/2010 at 23:31 (5,025 days old) by labboy (SD, CA) | ||
STTP worked for me
STPP is awesome. As described in another message, I had the same issue in our six month old KitchenAid with the "horrible" new Cascade Complete. 1 tbsp of STPP divided between the two detergent cups (topped off with Cascade) made a world of difference. Our water has hardness of about 14 gr/gallon.
If you have this issue, please post a review at the Cascade website. Hopefully they will eventually do something. I have been telling friends and neighbors to hopefully save them a service call. It will be interesting what the upcoming Consumer Reports issue with the new dishwasher detergent ratings will show. I have also seen Glass Magic recently disappear from stores around here. Anyone else seen it go away? Possibly because of the phosphate ban (mostly STPP in Glass Magic)? CLICK HERE TO GO TO labboy's LINK | ||
| Post# 452953 , Reply# 32 7/30/2010 at 04:04 (5,025 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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STPP in Glass Magic? I thought that was citric acid? I know citric acid is the main ingredient in lemishine, which is what I have been using....I don't think I have used the new Cascade once without adding the lemishine with it, perhaps that's why I haven't been seeing such bad results, though I'm sure the STPP (phosphates) are much better.
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Post# 452956 , Reply# 33 7/30/2010 at 04:23 (5,025 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Interesting!!! | ||
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Post# 452959 , Reply# 34 7/30/2010 at 04:59 (5,025 days old) by aussie-plugs (Melbourne, Australia) |
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STPP? Is that a product name? What's in it? I haven't heard of it here in Australia, so was just wondering. | ||
| Post# 452962 , Reply# 35 7/30/2010 at 05:24 (5,025 days old) by Maytagbear (N.E. Ohio) | ||
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Most American built dishwashers, if not all of them, do not have built in water softeners. That may change. Lawrence/Maytagbear | ||
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Post# 452963 , Reply# 36 7/30/2010 at 05:50 (5,025 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK) |
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Wow...
Thanks, Lawrence, I knew the older ones didnt, but thought the new ones would, wonder if that makes the difference then!!
Just looked at Sears online and could see in their blurb as not having the water softener feature, even the Bosch which was surprised at, but Miele USA do promote it. So if the formulation is similar to Europe then a lot more complaints will coming forward me thinks!!! | ||
| Post# 453080 , Reply# 37 7/30/2010 at 14:40 (5,025 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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The link will take you to a page that explains what STPP is. Not only is it used in detergents and dishwasher detergents, it is also used in food preservation as well. It's about as toxic a butter or vinegar. CLICK HERE TO GO TO whirlcool's LINK | ||
| Post# 453084 , Reply# 38 7/30/2010 at 14:49 (5,025 days old) by mrcleanjeans (milwaukee wi) | ||
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Mark, it will greatly diminish the cleaning power of your detergent to add citric acid to it. The citric acid will cut the alkalinity of the detergent by lowering the pH too much. Citric should be separate! | ||
| Post# 453122 , Reply# 40 7/30/2010 at 17:28 (5,025 days old) by dj-gabriele () | ||
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No water softener in the USA? I tought it was a standard feature! | ||
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Post# 453125 , Reply# 41 7/30/2010 at 17:52 (5,025 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Nope
Water hardness varies across the rather huge USA, but Amercian domestic dishwashers, other than those either made in Europe or based upon such designs have built water softeners.
Phosphate laden dishwasher detergent was until recently the main weapon against water hardness and it's problems for automatic dishwashers. Anyone who's water needed more treatment than this normally installed a whole house water softener system. | ||
| Post# 453132 , Reply# 43 7/30/2010 at 18:25 (5,024 days old) by mrx () | ||
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Ok - that's the last time I post on an iPhone lol | ||
| Post# 453218 , Reply# 44 7/31/2010 at 00:10 (5,024 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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After a lot of searching
This is the cheapest I could find any STPP! I hope this is the right stuff! 8 lbs for 21.55 and the shipping was ten dollars and something Fedex for a total of 32 dollars and some change. This company is out of Atlanta, GA.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO mark_wpduet's LINK | ||
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Post# 453221 , Reply# 45 7/31/2010 at 00:20 (5,024 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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Followed your link | ||
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Post# 453365 , Reply# 47 7/31/2010 at 19:20 (5,023 days old) by Jetcone (Schenectady-Home of Calrods,Monitor Tops,Toroid Transformers) |
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I just found out | ||
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Post# 453367 , Reply# 48 7/31/2010 at 19:34 (5,023 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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Post# 453371 , Reply# 49 7/31/2010 at 19:42 (5,023 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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| Post# 453550 , Reply# 50 8/1/2010 at 14:48 (5,023 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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I was at Walmart yesterday and noticed some packages of Cascade Complete in the darker green packages like the phosphated version used to be. Nope, still no phosphates. | ||
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Post# 453555 , Reply# 52 8/1/2010 at 15:04 (5,023 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Around here the switch over literally happened overnight.
One cannot find a bottle or box of phosphate Cascade for love nor money. Don't know what store managers did with the old stock, but one must assume marching orders were issued. Have checked off price and discount stores, but still nothing. May hit "Nationwide Warehouse" in the Village to see what there is. Now common sense says the stuff couldn't simply have been chucked into rubbish, think of the pollution from dumping cases of dishwashing gels and powders into landfills. So what did they do with the stuff! Stores locally had shelves full of the old stock, and again overnight it was replaced. | ||
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Post# 453580 , Reply# 53 8/1/2010 at 17:08 (5,023 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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I went to the store again today, they had one or two tubs of the Complete tabs like I got (that sell for $12+). they also had several jugs of the liquid Complete (dark green) next to lighter jugs of comparable Complete on the shelf, but that's it. I didn't look at the darker jugs to see if there4 were till phosphates, I just don't like those liquids.
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Post# 453612 , Reply# 54 8/1/2010 at 20:01 (5,022 days old) by KenmoreGuy64 (Charlotte, NC) |
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Found some older Cascade at a grocery store today.....
The store I was at is not reknown for rotating stock. Someone before me must have known to check the back of the shelves, as there was exposed a dark green box of Lemon Cascade, with 6.4% phosphate formula. Nothing left on the shelves otherwise had it. I got two boxes, and re-covered the remaining boxes (there may have been about 6 left) in case someone else wants to go fishing for it.
It pays to look at the backs of the shelves! If anyone wants me to nab what's left, send me an e-mail and I'll get it for you. Gordon | ||
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Post# 453622 , Reply# 55 8/1/2010 at 20:34 (5,022 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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I just picked up a bunch of 6.25 lb boxes of 6.4% phosphorus Cascade Complete at $5/box, at a local discount grocery store. That works out to $.80/lb. Also picked up a few boxes of 4.68 lb Cascade with Bleach (no doubt, an oxygen bleach) for $4/box. That works out to about $.86/lb. They also had phosphated Cascade Complete actionpak gel packs, 20 for $3. That actually compares well with the $17/85 pac tubs I've been getting at Costco. Would have to get my old receipts to figure out how much the older phosphated Cascade powder was costing me at Costco per lb.
Big Lots had the phosphated Cascade with Bleach, 4.68 lb, for $6/box. I passed on that. The only phosphated dw detergent I found at the 99 cents store was 9 gelpacs for $1. Not bad, actually, since that is the cheapest, but I wasn't sure of the brand. I passed on that also. Anyway, I'm fixed for phosphated dw detergent for a while, between the stuff I bought today and the sacks of STPP in storage... Hopefully in due course, when enough consumers reject the new phosphate free Cascade, we'll be seeing the "green" versions wind up at the discount lots shops, and a good phosphated version will return to the mainstream store shelves. | ||
| Post# 453673 , Reply# 56 8/2/2010 at 02:22 (5,022 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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| Post# 453725 , Reply# 58 8/2/2010 at 10:25 (5,022 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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Sudsmaster: Several states have made it illegal to sell DW detergent with phosphates, so even if the companies return to phosphate formulas they will be unable to sell them in those states. It would take action at the state level to allow them to be sold again. | ||
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Post# 453961 , Reply# 59 8/2/2010 at 21:26 (5,021 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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It's Baaaaaaack!
After my nightly bike ride in the park, ran into local supermarket to get a carton of milk. As usual did my quick walk down the detergent aisle and what did I spy with my little eye? Cascade "Complete" with phosphates (5.5%)was back on the shelf.
Inquired of the stock boy and he said that they were just put out! Was too knackered to think about fetching back several boxes of the stuff (they are rather large),but certianly will be doing so by the end of the week, unless they are all gone. Even at $7.89 for these large boxes, still better than having to order more STPP, or running my stash low. As one moves away from American detergents to the European variety, find less need for STPP, especially with Ariel Excel gel. Obviously even before CR's latest issue, P&G was getting an earful regarding their "new" detergents, and sales, (or lack thereof), certainly speak volumes. | ||
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Post# 454009 , Reply# 61 8/2/2010 at 22:57 (5,021 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Here's an interesting article on consumer backlash against the phosphate ban in Washington State:
Troy Varness, general manager of Fred's Appliance Inc., of Spokane, says the company supports efforts to reduce environmental pollution, but the phosphate-free dishwasher detergents currently on the market are lousy. Of the ban, he says, "I understand why they're doing it, and I agree with it, but, gosh, they need to come up with something that works. It just doesn't dissolve correctly. It gets into traps and pipes and it looks like a bar of soap melted in there. We end up making a lot of service calls because of it." He adds, "A lot of it is education of the public. They automatically think their dishwasher is broken, but that's just not the case. They just have to do things differently. The No. 1 complaint we're getting is they're having to rewash their dishes." Skirting the ban by driving out of county to buy detergents isn't necessarily a good option either, Varness says, because people typically buy the detergents in large quantities there, so they don't have to make frequent return trips, but such detergents have a shelf life because they have enzymes in them that die eventually. "Then pretty soon they're no good either," he says. I'm not sure about the claim that the enzymes "die eventually" (they aren't alive to begin with!), but apparently he doesn't know the trick involving buying phosphate free dw detergents (with fresh enzymes) and boosting them with STPP... LOL... CLICK HERE TO GO TO sudsmaster's LINK | ||
| Post# 454552 , Reply# 62 8/4/2010 at 19:08 (5,019 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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Post# 454557 , Reply# 63 8/4/2010 at 19:41 (5,019 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 454558 , Reply# 64 8/4/2010 at 19:43 (5,019 days old) by rp2813 (Sannazay) |
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Post# 454591 , Reply# 65 8/4/2010 at 21:46 (5,019 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Post# 454642 , Reply# 66 8/5/2010 at 00:07 (5,019 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Lookee Here
There was a reason automatic dishwashing detergents escaped the early state bans on phosphates that affected laundry detergents. It is *VERY* difficult to find another substance that deals with hard water minerals and other functions across the board as STPP.
Find it rather interesting that less than two months after P&G yanked the old formulas of Cascade off my local supermarket shelves, it is back, well at least at the one place I've been to this week. From this we can only take that P&G got an earful and more to the point bad press about their new products. In the old days housewives and others would have simply had to "man up" and take things on the chin, however this is the INTERNET era, and bad word can get around fast. Every maker of consumer products fears one thing, an army of angry homemakers speaking ill of something. When you are getting bad reviews on Youtube, Eopinions, Amazon.com and so forth, a company has to react. Not one single phosphate free dishwasher detergent, even the green brands cleans as well as those with the stuff. | ||
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Post# 454643 , Reply# 67 8/5/2010 at 00:10 (5,019 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Enzymes "Dying Off" In Detergents | ||
| Post# 454644 , Reply# 68 8/5/2010 at 00:13 (5,019 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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rp2813
I don't think your stash will die. The other day I was in my laundry room and had about 1/2 used box of Cascade powder that had been in there for (gosh) maybe three years, toward the back of a few other things. I put it there because I used it in the washing machine once. When I found it, I ran a cycle through the dishwasher and all the stains in the dishwasher came out. There were faded wine stains and a few other stains that had collected over the past couple of months from where I had been using phosphate free.....This is what made me decide to get some STPP, because I couldn't believe how better the interior of the dishwasher looked.....(this with a three year old box of Cascade).....so no, I don't think your stash will go bad anytime soon. | ||
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Post# 454649 , Reply# 69 8/5/2010 at 00:49 (5,019 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Ralph,
Yes, I found the old stuff being cleared out at Grocery Outlet. I plan on going back tomorrow and doubling my stash. Here's the situation. As of 7/1/10, 16 states enacted bans on phosphated dw detergent sales. At least to residential users. The members of the industry group (forget its name) voluntarily agreed to eliminate phosphates in all their DW detergents at the same time, across the nation. This sucks for those of us in the rest of the 34 states that don't have these ridiculous bans, which are largely symbolic and do little to rectify the environmental problem they are supposed to address. They actually make it worse, since people are finding they have to wash dishes twice to get them clean, now, wasting water and energy in the process. But I'm preaching to the choir, mostly, here, aren't I? Launderess, isn't NY one of the states that has banned phosphated dw detergents? The rest of you: if your state has banned phosphates, then write your state representatives and demand that they rescind the ban. There are other, better ways to fight water pollution, such as tertiary water treatment and control of excess fertilizer runoff on both residential and agricultural lands - and pig farms in the south are huge polluters, as well. | ||
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Post# 454651 , Reply# 70 8/5/2010 at 00:58 (5,019 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Nope,
New York State did ban phosphates in commercial laundry detergents recently, but dishwasher detergents are still AOK.
Ecolab, IIRC still has some STPP laced detergents, but if you look at the packet or other information it states "not for sale in New York State....." and so on. Again shelves were full of phosphate laden stuff before P&G got cute, but Finish/Electrasol tabs were still to be found, and they contain the chemical in question. Methinks what it boils down to is as with much everything else, factories are concentrated in one area, making a product for not just a local region,but perhaps the entire country as well. Remember Calgon powder had two versions; one contained phosphates and was sold where allowed, the other did not. That changed when the makers of the product decided to consolidate production and now only one powdered version is made, without phosphates. Amway's "Smashing White" and a handful of other water softeners that contained one or more types of phosphates did the same. | ||
| Post# 454655 , Reply# 71 8/5/2010 at 01:05 (5,019 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
"Methinks what it boils down to is as with much everything else, factories are concentrated in one area, making a product for not just a local region,but perhaps the entire country as well."
I won't disagree. But I find it ironic that that detergent companies have NO trouble finding the resources to make 89 different formulations of the same detergent brand (different scents, special additives of one sort or another, etc, etc, etc). Yet, they have trouble maintaining just ONE choice with phosphates. | ||
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Post# 454661 , Reply# 72 8/5/2010 at 01:20 (5,019 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Pssssst!
Peek at the Material Saftey Data Sheets for many versions of Tide detergent.
You will see there that most are *all* the same main formula, with only slight variations (scent, colour and perhaps a few other properties). So it's like making a plain roux or white sauce. You get the basic thing down, then add whatever you want to make it "special". | ||
| Post# 454662 , Reply# 73 8/5/2010 at 01:32 (5,019 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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Post# 454665 , Reply# 74 8/5/2010 at 01:56 (5,019 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Yes,
It took detergent makers years to find chemicals that could do what phosphates did, and even now it takes several things to do the job.
IMHO, one reason you are seeing the huge move to liquid and gel laundry detergents is they can be made with high levels of surfactants,and mainly use citrates as water softeners, avoiding the problems of sequestering water hardness via powdered builders. | ||
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Post# 454666 , Reply# 75 8/5/2010 at 02:05 (5,019 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Since sodium citrate is a salt, I don't understand why it couldn't be added to various powders for semi-sequestration duties.
Unfortunately sodium citrate will never replace STPP in all its abilities. And liquid detergents, in my experience, fall flat on their slurpy faces when they try to tackle really soiled fabrics. It's just no contest. | ||
| Post# 454740 , Reply# 78 8/5/2010 at 10:21 (5,019 days old) by PassatDoc (Orange County, California) | ||
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@Laundress What's the formula variation for Tide's HE powder? They must do something to it to make it low sudsing. My folks use regular Tide in their TL and you can see it make a lot of suds in their machine. Tide HE in my FL isn't as good as say Persil, but the suds level is reasonably low. | ||
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Post# 454797 , Reply# 79 8/5/2010 at 15:49 (5,019 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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One can look up recent information on P&G's website, but last time one checked, most if not all powdered versions of Tide including their "Pro-Line" had the same MSDS listing. *Think* the only difference for "HE" versions is they contain foam surpressing agents.
Since P&G now lists chemcial content for products on their website, that probably is a better reference. Material data safety sheets only cover potentially hazardous ingredients, not total contents. L. | ||
| Post# 454847 , Reply# 80 8/5/2010 at 20:18 (5,018 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania) | ||
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Tide He is low sudsing? This stuff creates so much foam that I cannot use it because it doesn't rinse well. Ok it is lower than regular tide but I could do with less suds from Tide He especially their liquids. | ||
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Post# 454868 , Reply# 81 8/5/2010 at 23:27 (5,018 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Well Yes, But...
As one stated before, P&G did not create a special "HE" detergent from the ground up, but tinkered with the Tide formula already in production.
Indeed, IIRC of all the "HE" detergents from the main players, none were created as such from the start,but evolved from their high sudsing cousins. Even the cheapest BOL European detergent makes less froth and rinses better, IMHO than many of the American "HE" detergents. Why? Simply because by and large H-Axis machines dominate the market, thus products are designed to work under those conditions. In order to make Tide truly low sudsing it would take a total change of surfactants, and that in turn means rejigging everything from chemical formulas to production plants. | ||
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Post# 454899 , Reply# 82 8/6/2010 at 02:44 (5,018 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 454904 , Reply# 84 8/6/2010 at 05:29 (5,018 days old) by polkanut (Wausau, WI ) |
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I'll stick with my Hytron detergent. It's made here in WI, loaded with chlorine, and phosphates too. It is also certified to be used in institutional settings as well.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO polkanut's LINK | ||
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Post# 454905 , Reply# 85 8/6/2010 at 05:43 (5,018 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie) |
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Post# 454916 , Reply# 86 8/6/2010 at 07:28 (5,018 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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Klementine
Just watched the old Ariel spot and thought it may be worth to mention that Ariel being a bio detergent was marketed in the beginning as a powder for the prewash cycle. By the time of the tv spot it was emphasized to be suitable for the mainwash as well but only up to 60° ;-)
I still remember when they finally gave up trying to convince Germans to do without boilwashing. It was in the late 70s when Klementine pronounced: From now on you can use Ariel for all your laundry, no more need to buy a seperate boilwash powder ! It somehow reminds me of Miele and the lack of bleach dispensers in the States. They learned their lesson, today`s Ariel Excel Gel, even the color type is good for any temperature whereas Persil Arctic Power kicks out at 60. | ||
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Post# 454933 , Reply# 87 8/6/2010 at 09:24 (5,018 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 454992 , Reply# 88 8/6/2010 at 14:42 (5,018 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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As I recall, European dw detergents contain chemcials called phosphonates. These have phosphorus in them but the phosphonate combination supposedly doesn't allow the phosphorus to promote algae growth in fresh water.
The hoopla about phosphate pollution of coastal waters is a big bunch of BS. Seawater already contains vast amounts of phosphate - a bit more from dishwashers and clothes washers isn't going to make any difference whatsoever. Untreated raw sewage high in nitrates is the problem, again and again. To top all this off, only 10-15% of the phosphates in sewage comes from household cleaners. The vast majority comes from human waste (urine and feces). It is an essential nutrient, without which we would all die. Are we going to commit mass suicide by restricting the phosphate in our diets to satisfy some ridiculous environmental fantasy? CLICK HERE TO GO TO sudsmaster's LINK | ||
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Post# 455011 , Reply# 89 8/6/2010 at 15:49 (5,018 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Yes, European dishwasher detergents contain indeed Phosphonates, but my detergent (Somat) contains less than 5% of it. However there is more than 30% Phosphates in it.
I guess at the time phosphates were banned there weren't that many dishwashers in Europe and the wash results of detergents without phosphates were probably a disaster at that time. So removing it from the dishwasher detergents didn't bring a lot. Removing it from laundry detergent was considered important because of the nutrification of lakes in the Netherlands and some other European countries as well. I've seen totally green lakes when I was young. In the years after the ban of phosphates the lakes got clearer and clearer so I guess the ban had it's purpose. Nowadays it's possible to filter out phosphates so I think it would be a good idea to replace the zeolites etc. by phosphates again. Much better for the environment I think. Phosphates pollution in sea water is indeed nonsense, as you stated in the past nutrification by phosphates only happens in standing water. Here's the list of ingredients. There are three categories: Less than 15%: Phosphonates 5 - 15%: Polycarboxylate, non-ionic Tenside (translation?) Over 30% Phosphates Other ingredients: Enzyme (Amylase, Protease), Scent | ||
| Post# 455105 , Reply# 90 8/7/2010 at 00:28 (5,017 days old) by PeterH770 (Marietta, GA) | ||
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Post# 455193 , Reply# 92 8/7/2010 at 12:08 (5,017 days old) by suburbanmd (Maryland, USA) |
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Background info on phosphates and water quality USA-centric, and dated, but nonetheless valuable background for informed discussion on phosphates. CLICK HERE TO GO TO suburbanmd's LINK | ||
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Post# 455207 , Reply# 95 8/7/2010 at 13:24 (5,017 days old) by foraloysius (Leeuwarden, Friesland, the Netherlands) |
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Post# 455213 , Reply# 96 8/7/2010 at 14:05 (5,017 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 455249 , Reply# 97 8/7/2010 at 17:10 (5,017 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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| Post# 455267 , Reply# 98 8/7/2010 at 19:48 (5,016 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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Sie thoughts
When I studied German in high school, I made a very conscious effort to be formal as much as possible in exercises or in class talk. It wasn't easy--the teacher really didn't care much about whether we addressed her formally, and the text book exercises always seemed to involve exchanges between high school students. Yet, I persisted. I'd heard too many stories about the American embarrassing him or herself by using "du" at the wrong time. (This was years ago, so things could have changed. But we heard stories in German class about the bus driver who used "du" and got fired for it.) I figured by forcing myself to be formal as much as possible, it would--with luck--be a default if I ever got to Germany. (I never have, but that's another story!)
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Post# 455348 , Reply# 100 8/8/2010 at 06:35 (5,016 days old) by mrboilwash (Munich,Germany) |
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There is a test about phosphate free dishwasher tabs in the current issue of Stiftung Warentest. It is rather a niche product group in Germany, all mainstream products have gone back to phosphates after a short try and failure in the early 90s, I think.
It seems only 2 out of 13 tested products did work good. CLICK HERE TO GO TO mrboilwash's LINK 
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Post# 455422 , Reply# 102 8/8/2010 at 17:23 (5,016 days old) by appnut (TX) |
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I just got the very lsat box of Powdered Cascade with some sort of Dawn additive at Big Lots for $5.00 for the very large box. 6.4% phosphates. They had Cascade Complete Gel in the huge jugs for $7.50, but the phosphorous content was only 5.0. They had some sort of Sun Solutions dishwasher detergent for dirt cheap but was only 5.0 phospherous. I also got 6 weeks ago two 48 ct. Cascade Complete all-in1 powder tablet packs with a 7.0 phospherous content.
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| Post# 455551 , Reply# 103 8/9/2010 at 03:33 (5,015 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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So I ran a load of dishes. I put the phosphate free cascade complete in both detergent cups (as usual) and 1/2 tbs STPP in the prewash and 1tbs STPP in the main detergent compartment. This didn't do nearly as great of a job as the three year old box of phosphate cascade did. There were still some faded wine stains (2 days old) on the tub of the dishwasher and one glass still had dried green stuff in it from a green smoothie. What am I doing wrong?
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Post# 455750 , Reply# 105 8/9/2010 at 19:13 (5,014 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Haven't Tried It With Non-Phosphate Detergent
But my older model Kenmore portable (built by Frigidaire), only as one rinse after two washes in the normal cycle.
Results were all over the place depending upon detergent and rinse aid used (Ecover rinse aid left yibbles and bits all over the place), but good results with Jet Dry. Since my machine has a mechanical timer often reset it to the final portion of the second wash cycle after it has filled for rinse. This in effect gives me two rinses because the machine will drain, purge, fill and rinse again. Overall find with today's modern dishwasher detergents that have built in rinse aids, things can get kind of frothy in the main wash, so a second rinse eases my mind am not drinking out of soap laden glasses/cups. | ||
| Post# 455835 , Reply# 106 8/10/2010 at 04:43 (5,014 days old) by whirlcool (Just North Of Houston, Texas) | ||
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Mark: Did you purge the hot water line before starting the DW? This helps a lot. If you also use "Hi Temp Wash" option if your DW has one that helps. What type of DW are you using? Make/Model? | ||
| Post# 456048 , Reply# 107 8/10/2010 at 20:04 (5,013 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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Make and model is Whirlpool Du1055xtp. It's almost six years old. Yes I always purge the water at the sink and use high temp wash. I don't use rinse agent simply because the rinse aid dispenser started leaking out rinse aid a while back. I've really never had much problem getting dishes clean......
Like I said, the three year old box of Cascade with phosphates did a much better job than me just adding STPP to the Cascade Complete non-phosphate....The only thing different would be that the three year old box of Cascade with phosphates had bleach in it. Perhaps that's why | ||
| Post# 456122 , Reply# 109 8/11/2010 at 04:21 (5,013 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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Actually, it's funny that you said that because I had a coupon for 16 ct cascade actions pacs (2 dollars off) so I bought the some with extra bleach action. Ran a full load today with a pac and some STPP and it did great. Funny. I was always under the impression that you could have bleach or enzymes but not both. The bleach version of cascade has enzymes as well as bleach. I thought enzymes were not compatible with bleach. Guess I was wrong.
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Post# 456124 , Reply# 110 8/11/2010 at 04:47 (5,013 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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IIRC, Cascade Defines "Bleach" as Oxygen Bleach
Could be wrong, but all the versions of Cascade "Hydroclean" and others I've seen on the shelves that have "bleach" on the label have listed on the back sodium percarbonate or some other oxygen based bleaching agent.
Some commercial versions of Cascade, sold for restaurant and others do contain chlorine bleach, but not enzymes. You cannot have enzymes and chlorine bleach in the same formula, well it won't have any sort of stable shelf life anyway. Chlorine bleach reeks havoc and destroys protein, which is one of the reasons it "kills" germs so well, and by the way is used in dishwasher detergents (certain foods like eggs, milk, etc contain protein). If you mix chlorine bleach and enzymes together, the enzymes will be deactivated. This is why detergents containing the later have warnings on their packets about using the former later in the wash cycle when two are to be used together. Better yet LCB should be added to the first rinse as in most commercial laundries. | ||
| Post# 456141 , Reply# 111 8/11/2010 at 07:59 (5,013 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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The aforementioned three year box of Cascade that I have is the institutional Cascade. I remember when I bought it at the certain Kroger I used to go to that it was the only powdered Cascade they had in stock. I remember thinking it was odd that they were selling institutional Cascade; it even had a picture of a restaurant dishwasher on the front of the box, but I bought it anyway....That box does not have enzymes in it and when I used it the other day running the dishwasher you can really smell the bleach. Funny I don't mind that smell at all; some people can't stand it. To me, it just smells clean ...The oxygen bleach seemed to do well with the STPP so I guess I will buy the action pacs with bleach and or the Powder with oxygen bleach from now on, since I don't see phosphate versions anywhere.
I think my main concern was what the non-phosphate detergents are doing to the dishwasher. For me it worked pretty good cleaning dishes and I didn't get the white film a lot of people reported, but the inside of the dishwasher was just stained with food since I had been using it and I had never seen that until I started using phosphate free. I was reading on a forum (can't remember where) and some technician says these phosphate free detergents seem more likely to gunk up......He said when he tears him apart they are a mess....He specifically stated the ones that were really bad were the people who had been using the phosphate free versions. I wonder how it gunks up at all with the super heated water? Sorry for the ramble....Way too much coffee | ||
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Post# 456168 , Reply# 112 8/11/2010 at 10:39 (5,013 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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If I'm not mistaken, the chlorine bleach in older dw detergents (which have gotten very hard to find even before the phosphate ban), is chlorinated TSP (the simple form of phosphate). I gather that it's not 100% stable, and was the main reason why mfgs warned that the dw detergent should be used in a timely manner and not gotten wet, etc. Those cautions still apply to non-chlorinated dw detergents but it's my educated guess that they have a significantly longer shelf life without the powdered chlorine bleach in them.
It's interesting that various European nations tried banning phosphates from dw detergents but gave it up because of unacceptably poor cleaning results. Since Europe is usually at the forefront of environmental legislation, it makes me wonder if any of the American state legislators actually researched the issue prior to casting their fateful votes to ban phosphates. What a debacle. | ||
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Post# 456258 , Reply# 114 8/11/2010 at 16:38 (5,013 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Cascade Ran Commercials
When their enzyme based (along with oxygen bleach), deterents hit the market showing housewives pulling faces, waving their hands in front of their noses and other depictions showing "disgust" with the heavy chlorine bleach scent from standard dw detergents. The appeal of new formula was an end to the dreaded bleach smell.
Many persons with breathing problems and or for other reasons cannot deal with chlorine bleach fumes, and often running a dishwasher meant not only filling the kitchen, but depending upon the layout of the home, an entire area with the smell of bleach. Many housewives waited until the last thing at night to run the dw(amoung other reasons), to start the dishwasher because at least the household would be upstairs or otherwise away from the wafting scent of bleach. Myself never could stand the heavy scent of some chlorine based dw detergents. And as above, always ran the unit late at night when one was out of the kitchen area to escape that horrid smell. Oh yes, not to mention the powerful bleach smell if one opened the dishwasher mid-cycle (to add an errant item), and all that hot bleach laden water/steam came gushing out. Commercial dishwashers by and large do not run nearly long enough for enzyme based dishwasher detergents to really get going. Plus chlorine bleach (if the product is approved) in a detergent satisfies the "chemical sanitiation" part of most codes regarding using automatic dishwashers. Chlorine bleach is cheap and common enough, which is why one most always finds it being used in restaurants and other places that serve the public. From dishwashing to the "rag" used to wipe down tables between servings, all one smells is bleach, bleach, bleach. | ||
| Post# 456269 , Reply# 115 8/11/2010 at 17:26 (5,013 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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While I agree that chlorine bleach can get strong, when running the dishwasher, it's very faint, with just a hint of chlorine smell. Not like someone just sprayed the shower down with Tilex (that I can't stand) too strong.
That said, the chlorine bleach laden cascade made the inside of my dishwasher sparkle more so than the oxygen bleach Cascade combined with STPP.....Not enough to quibble over. Each night I have one glass of red wine and when putting the wine glass in the dishwasher, some red wine from the glass will drip down onto the door and the bottom of the tub. Those were the faded wine stains I was talking about, along with a couple of other stains I'm not sure about. When using the STPP with Cascasde, these were "almost gone" but not completely. I used 1 tbs of STPP........My next dishwasher hopefully will be stainless steel inside. | ||
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Post# 456281 , Reply# 116 8/11/2010 at 18:03 (5,013 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Well It Would, Wouldn't It?
Chlorine is a much more powerful oxidiser than oxygen based bleaching agents.
Many housewives that do not routinely use LCB, find every now and then some things simply need to be run through a wash with the stuff, regardless of how often they have been treated with oxygen bleach. Ecolab and other commercial laundry product makers have what is called "reclaimer/destainer", which is basically a very strong chlorine bleach to deal with linens so stained that nothing is lost if they are bleached to within an inch of their life. Otherwise items are going to the rag bin for want of stubborn stain removal and or whitenss, so what is the loss goes the reasoning. | ||
| Post# 456311 , Reply# 117 8/11/2010 at 19:15 (5,012 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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| Post# 456312 , Reply# 118 8/11/2010 at 19:21 (5,012 days old) by strongenough78 (California) | ||
Cascade with phosphates is still out there!!!
I ran around the neighborhood hoping that the Electrasol Finish powder and gelpacs I'm currently using hadn't gone to phosphate free yet as I was gonna stock up on it. Unfortunately it has. So I ran to Walgreens where they had the Cascade pacs phosphate free, but the Cascade powder with shine shield still had it. At $6.31 cents after tax for a 3.75 pound box I only bought one. Then I remembered Big Lots! so I went there. They have the same formula in the 6.25 pound box for $5. And the 4.75 pound box of Cascade with hydrobleach something powder for $6. I got 2 of the 6.25 pound boxes for just over $10. Still a little pricey compared to the Electrasol Finish powder now phosphate free which was $2.97 at Wal Mart, but I figured it was worth it. And I LOVE the Finish powder. Plus I found out that the Finish powder was 3.2% phosphate while the Cascade powder is twice that at 6.4%. And the Finish gelpacs were 8.7%. So if there is a Big Lots! in your area and you wanna stock up on Cascade powder with phosphate while you can. I say go for it and go for it soon!
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Post# 456313 , Reply# 119 8/11/2010 at 19:23 (5,012 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.) |
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Post# 456316 , Reply# 120 8/11/2010 at 19:29 (5,012 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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No, It Won't On It's Own
What phosphates will do is deal with mineral/hard water residue, which when cleared makes a surface appear cleaner.
Case in point, the stainless steel wash tub on my Miele shines like new, and the frequent use of phosphate laden or added detergent is the cause IMHO. Certain stains or their remaining traces can only be "removed" with bleaches. Used the words in quotes because bleaching normally does not remove stains, but merely breaks apart whatever colour stains have. If you take a white item that has been stained and washed with bleaching agents, hold it up to the light and you will most always see the outline of the stains still there. You cannot see the stain because it's colour has been removed, but never the less the stain is there. Chlorine bleach does not care what colour it removes. Dyes, fruits, veggies, blood, etc all often can be decolourised by the stuff. Oxygen bleach OTHO acts on natural "dyes" such as tannins and such,this is why they are called "colour safe" bleaches. Long as the dye used on a textile is colourfast and one does not subject the item to very hot to boiling water temperatures, the colour should remain. Though frequent use of oxygen bleaches, especially activated and or percarbonate bleaches can and often will fade colours. This is why Persil and other European detergents have special versions for colours, formulated without bleaches and often bluing agents. | ||
| Post# 456322 , Reply# 121 8/11/2010 at 19:36 (5,012 days old) by strongenough78 (California) | ||
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LOL!! | ||
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Post# 456324 , Reply# 122 8/11/2010 at 19:39 (5,012 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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European nations tried banning phosphates from dw detergent
Bet many a detergent maker in the EU wishes the powers that be would just make up their minds, instead of lurching back and froth.
Product makers in the United States knew ages ago it was very hard to formulate an automatic dishwasher detergent without phosphates. This is why even though many gave up the fight when it came to laundry, they dug in their heels when it came to dishwasher products. Judging by current events, it seems the same is holding true today. With the EU having one of the first alternatives to phosphates in their cross hairs; namely Zeolites, things are going to get interesting. | ||
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Post# 456325 , Reply# 123 8/11/2010 at 19:41 (5,012 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Local Shop Put Back Cascade With Phosphates Last Week | ||
| Post# 456327 , Reply# 124 8/11/2010 at 19:53 (5,012 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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| Post# 456336 , Reply# 125 8/11/2010 at 20:16 (5,012 days old) by labboy (SD, CA) | ||
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Response to Whirlcool (Comments on gov't bans of STPP)
Although the government can ban phosphates in detergent manufacturing for home use, I do not think it is possible to completely ban STPP and other phosphate compounds in general.
STPP is widely used in industry as a water softening compound for manufacturing operations and as a processing aid for some food manufacturing operations. The chemical supply house I get my STPP from sells food grade STPP (around 100 lbs/month) to a local food manufacturer. I read a study about the effects of a phosphate ban for commercial dishwashing compounds. The study showed it would not be feasible for commercial establishments because alternative compounds would not clean effectively. (Duh...what the rest of the general public now knows all too well.) I also found an EU study about the environmental effects of phosphate detergent bans. They concluded that the increased water and energy usage resulting from individuals rewashing poorly cleaned dishes (from phosphate free formulations) had a more negative effect than algal growth from phosphate based detergents. | ||
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Post# 456385 , Reply# 126 8/12/2010 at 02:31 (5,012 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@LordKenmore
Zeolites are for technical purposes a type of clay that is insoluble. There is a worry in certain quarters of the EU that the "sludge" produced by large amounts of the stuff will harm waterways and aquatic life.
Personally cannot stand Zeolites and my laundry has less "dust" and feels softer when washed in detergents that do not contain the stuff. Liquid detergents for a start don't contain aluminum silicates, nor do some of the better European commercial laundry detergents. | ||
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Post# 456390 , Reply# 127 8/12/2010 at 03:20 (5,012 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Personally cannot stand Zeolites
I find that a bit incongruous since one has been a Persil fan for ages, and Persil has been loaded to the gills with zeolite for ages as well.
I think zeolites are ok, and that they do result in softer results than powders that rely on sodium carbonate alone for water softening chores. I've read that the objection to zeolites on the part of the EU folks has to do with the chore of dealing with the resulting increased amounts of sludge in the sewage treatment plants, which costs money. | ||
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Post# 456404 , Reply# 128 8/12/2010 at 05:32 (5,012 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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YeaBut
Have a huge arsenal of laundry products to choose from, and have only just recently opened the second box in the case of Persil in my stash.
Even then do not use Persil for my linens, or on some items of clothing. Have a nice stash of European commercial laundry detergent for that, and it does not contain Zeolites. Now that one has discovered Ariel Excel gel, when this stash of Persil is done, that will be it, though it could take along time. | ||
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Post# 456405 , Reply# 129 8/12/2010 at 05:36 (5,012 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Persil Fan
If you ever read some of my posts back in my ThatHomeSite days, I stated clearly Persil really did not have that much over Tide HE. Only reason one has Persil now is due to nabbing a case of the stuff for less than the local cost of one box. Otherwise really wouldn't have bothered.
Tide HE when juiced with phosphates gives Persil a run for it's money. Heck Tide HE "Free and Clear" liquid can give Persil a run for it's money at times than Persil. Have several bottles each of Perwoll and "Black Velvet" as well. Again only because one found the lot for less than the cost of one bottle locally. | ||
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Post# 456426 , Reply# 130 8/12/2010 at 08:40 (5,012 days old) by CleanteamofNY ((Monroe, New York) |
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Thanks for the STPP tip! For the past few months I've been using Cascade/Dawn Action pacs and the cleaning was just OK. I made ribs and the glass Pyrex dish was somewhat burnt for leaving it in the oven too long so I've added 1-2 Tbs of STPP with the pac and the dish was cleaned except 2 little area and as for the aluminum pots, they finally shined as if I was using the old Cascade. | ||
| Post# 456552 , Reply# 131 8/12/2010 at 18:25 (5,011 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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Thanks for the zeolite info! | ||
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Post# 457348 , Reply# 132 8/16/2010 at 19:48 (5,007 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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False Alarm
Just came in from the aforementioned shop that had the "old" version of Cascade Complete powder a week or so ago. Peeped today and the stuff is gone, replaced by the horrid new version.
Store merely put out a case of the old formula they had sitting in stock, or that is what the manager on duty stated. Anywho, as the product wasn't on sale, and at nearly $8.00 didn't purchase any, nor had the room to stock up if one wanted. My laundry product/detergent/soap stash is pretty much taking up all available space, including nooks and crannies! *LOL* Besides still have a bottle of the old Cascade Complete "Hydroclean with Bleach" gel am working through. As we don't run the machine daily, indeed sometimes not for several days, this may take awhile. Since have plenty of STPP on hand, and will always continue to do so, will simply purchase the new stuff (if that is all one can find at that time), and sex it up a bit with phosphate powder. Am keen to try the new Cascade "Essentials" version in the white box anyway. L. | ||
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Post# 457489 , Reply# 134 8/17/2010 at 12:15 (5,007 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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Oh yes, the German phosphate-free detergents did horrible. Most products failed all the way. Not only did they not clean dishes well, they also damaged them - more or less. Glasses became dull and/or covered with spots, stainless steel items (including the dishwasher) turned rainbow-colored in some cases. Even expensive brands like Ecover failed to wash away egg and starch residue.
There were three tabs that did a "good" job cleaning on the 2.5 hrs. 122°F cycle. The water hardness was regulated at 9 gpg. The all-in-one type of tabs all failed to prevent lime scale residue. Water hardness was regulated at 21 gpg. Only two tabs with phosphate could clean "good" both on the 122° as well as a 104°F cycle. Water hardness, again, was regulated at 21 gpg. Anyone interested in reading the German test - send me an email. Alex | ||
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Post# 457776 , Reply# 135 8/18/2010 at 14:47 (5,006 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 457815 , Reply# 136 8/18/2010 at 17:08 (5,006 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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According To The Finish Website
Only the "Powerball" tablets (also sold under the Electrasol brand name), contain phosphates. The Quantum versions with and without powerball are phosphate free.
Sssssssoooooooo, as one missed out on the Cascade Complete, will start stocking up on Finish tabs. Now that New York State has moved to ban phosphates, have a feeling they won't be on the shelves long. | ||
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Post# 457887 , Reply# 137 8/19/2010 at 00:08 (5,005 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.) |
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The Finish website is probably out of date. In this area, the phosphated Finish Powerball tablets were among the first to be hoovered from the shelves; nothing but phosphate-free has been around (in any of the places I shop) for some time. Yet the Quantum versions can still be had with phosphates in places if you look around the back of the shelves. It's just a matter of local variations.
This is just as well with me, since the Powerball tabs gave a tendency to get rock hard. The Quantum seem to have a better shelf life as they have a powder loose inside the clear casing. | ||
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Post# 457899 , Reply# 138 8/19/2010 at 00:52 (5,005 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Post# 457902 , Reply# 139 8/19/2010 at 02:02 (5,005 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Can Still Find Phosphate "PowerBall" Tabs
Around here, but as you say the bulk of the stuff are "Quantam" tablets.
Yes, well remember from the last time one purchased Electrasol tabs in bulk (store closeout) that the darn things turned hockey puck hard afterawhile. Towards the end of using up my dozen or so cartons of the stuff, had to get a mallet out to whack at the tabs so they would break up. This is what has one second guessing hoarding up Finish tablets. It does not help much that P&G states their powders have a shelf life of one year. Though one is sure that could be extended abit with proper storage, really do not have the room to store a crate of dishwasher powder. Think one is going to bite the bullet and buy a box of the new Cascade and see how things go. Do have tons of STPP on hand should the need arise, and can always order more. | ||
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Post# 457914 , Reply# 140 8/19/2010 at 06:45 (5,005 days old) by logixx (Germany) |
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| Post# 457917 , Reply# 141 8/19/2010 at 07:41 (5,005 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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My state has not instituted a ban of phosphates yet; everywhere I have been, I've checked (out of curiosity) and Finish, Cascade, store brand, and Value brand powders, tabs, gels, pacs all are phosphate free. I haven't been to Big Lots.
The Shelf life for Cascade institutional powder *in my case* is 3 years and counting. A box I had was stored in my laundry room that is only exposed to heat or a/c if I keep the laundry room door open, which often I don't. In the summer it can get HOT in there and COLD in the winter if I leave the door closed. I would NOT think those would be optimal conditions for an opened box of Cascade powder. I wasn't really storing it, it was a half used box I forgot ALL about and it works GREAT still. | ||
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Post# 457977 , Reply# 143 8/19/2010 at 14:45 (5,005 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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@ Sudsmaster
States didn't demand dishwasher products remove phosphates, reather it was the reaction of P&G and other makers of said products to what they saw coming down the pike.
According to the New York State bill (see link posted elsewhere on this forum), at the time the state banned phosphates for home laundry products, automatic dishwashers escaped such action because in part so few homes had them back then. However today automatic dishwashers aren't really a "luxury" or high end item, and most homes have them, this has driven up the use of detergents. Like California, there are a few states with large enough consmer populations that when one acts, sooner or later it trickles down. Besides the original other sixteen states that have banned phosphates in dw detergent, NY has joined and NJ is close to having it's name added as well. Years ago detergent makers would have said "fine", we will product products for different regions and that will be that. However the nature of the business has changed, with manufacturing now concentrated in several or just a few plants, who in turn pump out proudcts for the entire country, if not North America. Time will tell if P&G has stopped producing phosphate versions of all domestic dishwasher detergents. If the supply of same dries up even in non-banned areas as excess supply is absorbed (ok, hoarded, *LOL*), and not replaced, there will be our answer. Comparing Germany to the United States isn't fair. IIRC, one body controls what can and cannot go into products in the former, whereas the later has fifty sovereign states,free to make their own decisions in this matter. Know we have gone toe to toe on this before, but methinks part of this push to get shot of phosphates is the federal government leaning on states and local areas to "clean up" their drinking water supplies and waterways. New York City narrowly escaped having to build new water treatment plants (at a cost of many millions), by agreeing to certain federal requests. It is perfectly possible to filter out more phosphates than most local treatment plants do now, but that comes at a cost of building new or retro-fitting existing plants. Most state and local governments barely have funds for road infrastructure projects, so you can imagine the howls of protest about anything else. | ||
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Post# 458010 , Reply# 144 8/19/2010 at 18:20 (5,004 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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The 16 state ban went into effect around July 1 of 2010. The members of the American Detergent Manufacturers Association (or whatever they call themselves) voted en masse to remove phosphates from all their dw detergent products regardless of where they are being sold. This was a purely defensive move - it protected them from engaging in a formula battle between themselves in states where phosphates are not banned, like California.
But I'm hoping it will backfire on them big time. | ||
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Post# 458067 , Reply# 145 8/20/2010 at 01:39 (5,004 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Found This | ||
| Post# 458069 , Reply# 146 8/20/2010 at 01:53 (5,004 days old) by LordKenmore (The Laundry Room) | ||
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Interesting article, Launderess!
What scared me about it was the talk of chemical companies doing their mad scientist act. While it's entirely possible they may find something that will be absolutely perfect, so perfect everyone hoarding Cascade with phosphates or STTP (naming no names to protect the guilty!) will toss the old detergent or STTP out. It is also entirely possible that the new chemical will have its unique problems in time. Possibly so severe that they make environmentalists pine for the days of phosphates. | ||
| Post# 458074 , Reply# 147 8/20/2010 at 03:52 (5,004 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY) | ||
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| Post# 458130 , Reply# 149 8/20/2010 at 10:38 (5,004 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas) | ||
I scored
Two more packages of Orange sented Cascade W/Dawn 8.0% Phosphage last night at Dillon's. They were hidden behind the light green packages. They appeared to have had more, but I had to pay attention to my food budget. You can't have the means to wash your dirty plates and no food to put on them.
I did have a $1 off coupon. | ||
| Post# 458135 , Reply# 151 8/20/2010 at 12:01 (5,004 days old) by Iheartmaytag (Wichita, Kansas) | ||
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Your Bosch machine may be good | ||
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Post# 458234 , Reply# 152 8/21/2010 at 06:01 (5,003 days old) by retro-man (- boston,ma) |
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So I did buy a box of cascade w/dawn shine shield. Tried it on a load last night and everything came out clean and shiny. Maybe this is one that works for me with my water and dishwasher which is a whirlpool quiet partner. Jon | ||
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Post# 459181 , Reply# 153 8/25/2010 at 17:13 (4,999 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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And the beat goes on...
In today's visit to Grocery Outlet, I happened to stroll down the cleaning product aisle. What did I find?
An 11.25 box of Cascade "Extra Action", with Dawn and Shine Shield, and no more than 6.4% phosphorus. Only $6.99, ($.62/lb) which means it's even cheaper than the last batch of similar Cascade (6.4% P) of 6.25 lbs @ 4.99 ($.80/lb). So of course I couldn't resist, and picked up two boxes. The only drawback is that these are heavy mothers, and the little woven plastic handles in the tops don't hold the weight for more than about 10 paces. So just be forewarned. I managed to drop both boxes in my driveway because the handles gave way, but there was no loss of product and the boxes are still well sealed. I might get out the Gorilla Glue and re-glue the handles (they give at one side because the adhesive fails) just for great ease of use in the kitchen. And so it goes. This phosphate ban is turning into a bargain bonanza for those who want to stock up on the now-obsolete phosphated products. | ||
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Post# 459224 , Reply# 154 8/25/2010 at 19:50 (4,998 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage) |
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Score!
Ok, I'm good now for awhile.
Just came in from the supermarket (had only stopped in for coffee beans) and spied several boxes of Cascade "Complete" with 5.5% phosphates. Purchased six boxes (all as one could manage, darn things are big and heavy), at full retail price, but at least won't have to worry about shipping. Don't know where am going to store this new stash, but think will try some sort of plastic wrapping to extend the freshness. | ||
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Post# 459282 , Reply# 155 8/25/2010 at 23:39 (4,998 days old) by sudsmaster (SF Bay Area, California) |
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Don't know where am going to store this new stash
Under the bed?
Inside hollowed out Hummel figurines? Ballast for table lamps? Create a room divider out of colorful metallic green boxes of your favorite phosphated Cascade powder? Moisten lightly with water, stuff into silicone rubber mold, and put resultant bust of Dame Edna on display in your foyer? Mold into bricks and use to construct a faux fireplace that cleans as it burns? Mix with water into a lumpy slurry and use to create that nostalgic 70's "popcorn ceiling" effect? Use boxes to create a podium from which you can lecture your guests on the finer points of French laundering? | ||
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