Thread Number: 40342
New energy efficiency standards for washers and dishwashers announced
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Post# 597130   5/17/2012 at 18:37 (4,361 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)        

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This is from the Department of Energy website, dated May 16. It sounds bad. Water consumption on clothes washers will go down 35% -- that's right, thirty-five percent -- by 2015. Dishwashers will have water consumption reduced 20% starting in 2013.

 

All while maintaining performance, of course. Sealed

 

 

WASHINGTON – As part of the Obama Administration’s focus on taking sensible steps to save families money while also reducing energy consumption,  the Department of Energy today announced common-sense energy efficiency standards for residential clothes washers and dishwashers that will save consumers $20 billion in energy and water costs. The new standards for both clothes washers and dishwashers were informed by important feedback from manufacturers, consumer groups and environmental advocates, producing significant savings while retaining consumer choice. The clothes washers standard announced today will save households approximately $350 over the lifetime of the appliance, while offering consumers a variety of more efficient machine choices, and as a result of the standards for dishwashers, home dishwashers will use approximately 15 percent less energy and more than 20 percent less water, directly providing consumers with savings on monthly bills.

 

Today’s announcement is only the most recent in a series of common-sense efficiency standards made by the Obama Administration that have covered nearly 40 different products, and will together save consumers nearly $350 billion on their energy bills through 2030.

 

“Working with consumer, industry and environmental groups to develop common-sense energy-saving appliance standards is an important part of the Obama Administration’s all-of-the-above approach to American energy and the Energy Department’s efforts to reduce energy costs for consumers,” said Secretary Chu. “Collectively, these energy efficiency standards for everyday appliances have saved American families hundreds of billions of dollars and offered consumers more efficient, less costly appliances without sacrificing performance.”

 

“DOE’s implementation of these new standards reflects the consensus agreement reached by stakeholders. It will result in tremendous energy savings for the consumer while preserving product choice and minimizing manufacturer impact. The home appliance industry is proud of its long history of energy efficiency advancements benefiting consumers and applauds DOE for working with stakeholders to increase energy efficiency,” said Joseph McGuire, President of the Association of Home Appliance Manufacturers. 

 

“Clothes washer and dishwasher energy efficiency has improved dramatically over the past two decades while also improving clothes washing performance and maintaining dish washing performance,” said Steve Nadel, Executive Director of the American Council for an Energy-Efficient Economy.  “These improvements have been driven by a combination of manufacturer and utility efforts, Energy Star, federal tax incentives and minimum efficiency standards.  We support the new DOE minimum efficiency standards which will raise the floor, helping to spur further efficiency improvements.

 

The new standards – developed in partnership with companies like Whirlpool, General Electric and LG Electronics, industry advocates, national environmental organizations, consumer groups and other stakeholders – build on previous minimum energy efficiency requirements for clothes washers and dishwashers and go into effect starting in 2015 and 2013, respectively. 

 

Today, clothes washers and dishwashers account for approximately 3 percent of residential energy use and more than 20 percent of indoor water use in homes across the country.  The new standards for clothes washers will reduce the energy consumption of front-loading clothes washers by 15 percent and reduce water consumption by 35 percent, while top-loading washers will save 33 percent on energy and 19 percent on water use.

 

As companies look for ways to further boost the efficiency of their products,  companies will continue to undertake additional research and development, partner with entrepreneurs working on new efficiency technologies and invest in manufacturing innovations that will help drive better, more efficient appliances and broader job creation across the economy. For example, according to a 2011 trade report , standards laws signed by President Reagan and both Presidents Bush and DOE rulemakings generated approximately 340,000 jobs in 2010 alone.

 

The standards announced today are part of the Obama Administration’s broader all-of-the-above approach to American energy and the Department of Energy’s efforts to help families save money by saving energy.  Other energy and cost-saving standards adopted under the Obama Administration include:

  • March 2009 - 14 consumer and commercial products with standards prescribed in the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007 (EISA 2007), including dishwashers, general service incandescent lamps and residential clothes washers
  • April 2009 - Microwaves, kitchen ranges and ovens
  • July 2009 - General service fluorescent lamps and incandescent reflector lamps
  • July 2009 - Commercial heating, air-conditioning and water-heating equipment
  • August 2009 - Beverage vending machines
  • December 2009 - Commercial clothes washers
  • February 2010 - Small electric motors
  • March 2010 - Residential water heaters, direct heating equipment and pool heaters
  • April 2011 - Residential clothes dryers and room air conditioners
  • June 2011 - Residential furnaces and residential central air conditioners and heat pumps
  • September 2011 - Residential refrigerators, freezers, and refrigerator-freezers
  • October 2011 - Fluorescent lamp ballasts
  • November 2011 - Direct heating equipment
  • May 2012 - Residential clothes washers
  • May 2012 – Residential dishwashers

 



CLICK HERE TO GO TO Supersuds's LINK




Post# 597135 , Reply# 1   5/17/2012 at 18:48 (4,361 days old) by StrongEnough78 (California)        

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Gee whiz. The part that I don't get is how they want new front loading washers to save 35% on water. They hardly use any now as it is. I'll stick with something vintage. Even if I have to use baling wire and duct tape to keep it running, that's what I'll do.

Post# 597138 , Reply# 2   5/17/2012 at 18:52 (4,361 days old) by DirectDriveDave ()        

These need to go away, badly.

Post# 597140 , Reply# 3   5/17/2012 at 19:13 (4,361 days old) by henry200 ()        

How the heck can clothes get clean if they barely get damp?  My front-loader is already stingy on water, so much so that I often opt for the extra rinse to be sure all the detergent is gone.  I guess I should think about stocking up on spare parts or buy another machine for back-up.  Thank goodness I have several good dishwashers on hand already.


Post# 597145 , Reply# 4   5/17/2012 at 19:19 (4,361 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
Get One NOW!

mrb627's profile picture
Makes me want to purchase a backup machine to keep as a spare. I cannot imagine using less water than they already do...

Malcolm


Post# 597147 , Reply# 5   5/17/2012 at 19:22 (4,361 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
And COLD too!

mrb627's profile picture
All that and the water will no longer be warmed in any way. TAP FREAKIN COLD.

But we will make up for it with STRONGER CHEMICALS that we had better all develop an immunity to the residue...

EPIC FAIL!

Malcolm


Post# 597184 , Reply# 6   5/17/2012 at 20:37 (4,361 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

I'm sorry but...

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Reducing the 2 tablespoons water consumption even more means that the clothes won't even get wet.

So.. they won't have to be spun dry.... That saves energy

But we can save even more... why use the dryer if the clothes are already dry?

Comming up next

standards to increase the efficiency on deodorants, because the whole country stinks like dirty laundry.


Post# 597186 , Reply# 7   5/17/2012 at 20:40 (4,361 days old) by thomasortega (El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora de Los Angeles de Porciúncula)        

HE = High Epidemy washers

Post# 597196 , Reply# 8   5/17/2012 at 21:23 (4,361 days old) by combo52 (50 Year Repair Tech Beltsville,Md)        

combo52's profile picture

New Efficiency standards

 

They look very common sense to me and its long overdue, it will however make consumers take laundry more seriously as it will be more important to use the correct cycles and temperatures to get good results.


Post# 597204 , Reply# 9   5/17/2012 at 21:49 (4,361 days old) by Hunter (Colorado)        
Don't forget toxic laundry detergents.

Nobody can tell you what the formulations of detergents will do to the biospheres....

Post# 597206 , Reply# 10   5/17/2012 at 21:51 (4,361 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        

How many more standards are they going to announce? How is technology going to keep up with all of these new standards? Are they now getting to the point where the cart is pushing the horse? What will be the step after this, laundry and diswashing on odd or even days?

My guess is that the agency, responsible for these announcements, is more about justifying its continual funding than actually providing something of tangible value that actually makes sense.


Post# 597208 , Reply# 11   5/17/2012 at 22:08 (4,361 days old) by Pulsator (Saint Joseph, MI)        

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I guess that settles it. The only modern washers I'll purchase starting in 2015 are fully programmable commercial machines!


Post# 597209 , Reply# 12   5/17/2012 at 22:08 (4,361 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

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Yes, how are they gonna make front loaders use even less water? I suppose the term "Steam Washer" will get a whole new meaning! Maybe all washers will then only spray a fine mist of water through (or more likely on) the clothing as part of the rinse cycle - like some LGs already do:

CLICK HERE TO GO TO logixx's LINK


Post# 597222 , Reply# 13   5/17/2012 at 23:14 (4,361 days old) by whirlypoolie ()        
"Rent-Seeking" and/or Guaranteed Business for...Laun

Actually, no. These new standards don't promote much of anything except more of the same "it doesn't work" stuff consumers already have to deal with.

So what are the real savings to the average household? Are there any within the actual average life span of new appliances? Or do the only ones who benefit are the lucky ones who got the appliance which was NOT built on Friday or Monday?

How were these figures determined?

Did the ones doing the research---or supporting the same--have a conflict or conflicts of interest?


It does not look good for the consumer who wants clean clothes and/or to do dishes automatically and to do it at home.

However if we are talking about guaranteed employment--and profits--for owners of laundromats and/or suppliers of hand dish washing aids? That may well be the real end goal with all of this constant "efficiency standards" changes! Few ordinary people will be able to afford to BUY home dishwashers and/or laundry machines if this keeps up.

Or want to. :(


Post# 597225 , Reply# 14   5/17/2012 at 23:29 (4,361 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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Can I just breathe on my t-shirts and call them clean? This is a load of you-know-what. A bunch of dag-flabbed spreadsheet bureaucrats without the slightest inkling of the parameters they're manipulating.

Know what happens when you put 2 gallons of water in a toploader and call it a rinse? It saves 35c worth of water a year, doesn't rinse, and destroys clothes. DUH!

But then "DUH" is about the kindest thing one can say about government at any time and particularly now. What next, toilets that flush with air? S-h-h-h-h, don't let them hear us say that, they'll do it. They've already made showers that don't shower and faucets that don't faucet.

I'm glad I'm old and won't have to endure much more of this nonsense.


Post# 597233 , Reply# 15   5/17/2012 at 23:59 (4,361 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        
From the DOE DIrect Final Rule - Clothes Washers

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7. Performance Metric
DOE’s clothes washer test procedure provides a measure of representative energy and water use. It does not evaluate cleaning or rinsing performance or fabric care. AHAM, BSH, GE, and Whirlpool commented that DOE should add a performance measure, particularly because at the higher efficiency levels, clothes washers are reaching the limit where product performance and consumer satisfaction may not be economically reached.

 

Ding!

I think we've passed that point with dishwashers, if you skim over the high points of the dishwasher DOE Direct Final Rule the future doesn't look too bright for dishwashing...


Post# 597234 , Reply# 16   5/18/2012 at 00:18 (4,361 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

Better stock up on VINTAGE machines---these new standards HAVE TO GO--SCRAP this nonsense!!Can we please have a CHOICE as to what type of machine to buy?????Same with other things----potties and light bulbs.The DOE NEEDS TO GO!!!!

Post# 597237 , Reply# 17   5/18/2012 at 01:45 (4,360 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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This is 2012, and I've seen some of the latest front load washers and how little water they use........And to think that in 2015, that will seem like a lot of water.

No different than my Duet from 2005. In 2005, I thought it was ridiculous. Now, looking at the later machines, I feel like my Duet is a swimming pool.


Post# 597242 , Reply# 18   5/18/2012 at 02:02 (4,360 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

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I hope my 1998 FL lives longer than I do.

Post# 597244 , Reply# 19   5/18/2012 at 02:25 (4,360 days old) by qualin (Canada)        

Wow... that's all I can say.

Next thing you know, Americans will be smuggling Canadian washing machines over the border....

There is already a grey market for Canadian toilets... and for that very reason.

Do you wash or do you lavage? :)


Post# 597246 , Reply# 20   5/18/2012 at 02:36 (4,360 days old) by mrsalvo (New Braunfels Texas)        

Bed bugs for days!!!!

Post# 597267 , Reply# 21   5/18/2012 at 06:17 (4,360 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

I would love to see ALL of these GDSOBs actually have to use the machines they are pushing down the public's throats. This is all such total bullshit. The damn Dept. of Energy is supposed to be focused on breaking our dependence on fossil based energy, but they are tied face down to the mattress by the f***ing carbon energy industries so instead of pushing solar and geothermal along with wind and tidal turbine energy, this bureaucracy is pushing these defeatest ideas. If I were Obama or Chu, I would not want my name associated with such stupidity.

I am so glad to be as old as I am so that I won't have to put up with this insanity for that much longer.


Post# 597275 , Reply# 22   5/18/2012 at 07:30 (4,360 days old) by seeitrun2006 (Commerce, GA)        
Smaller capacity-more loads to wash

Another thing that will happen is the capacity of washing machines will get smaller. A load will consist of 2-large bath towels versus 6~8 that I can wash in my 2007 Whirlpool Duet. King size sheets will have to wash one at a time versus washing both sheets and pillow cases in one load. This means doing more loads of laundry which means no energy savings!

As far as Diswashers goes I guess we'll have to throw in a roll papertowels to help dishwashers since there will be no water to wash the dishes.

If our goverment spent as much time on hunger, the homeless and creating jobs as they do trying to save energy no one would ever be hungry, everyone would have a place to live and most everyone would have a decent job.

Sorry for my RANT and RAVE!


Post# 597279 , Reply# 23   5/18/2012 at 08:22 (4,360 days old) by gansky1 (Omaha, The Home of the TV Dinner!)        

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It's baffling to me why there is this race to the bottom.  It's hardly the government alone, the manufacturers (P&G is mentioned numerous times as well)  are the driving force behind the engineering and design of these machines and appear from the text of the DOE reports to be materially involved in the formation of  and cooperation with the new standards.   Much space in the report is given to explaining the technological development and dark magic used to reach these standards by manufacturers who are agreeing that it can be done.   Cooler washing temps in both clothes and dish washing operations among other mechanical feats  - the LG spray washing & rinsing, more food filters in dishwashers, etc. are being utilized to reach these standards.   Particularly interesting is the incorporation of the washer-cleaning cycles into the energy and resource standards.  Mold, mildew and odors are an obvious problem that they've gone from denying to embracing and attempting to solve with splashy cleaning programs and chemicals. In energy and resource use calculations will include provisions for running the "recommended" washer cleaning cycle once each month.  I haven't reached the life-span section of clothes washers, but for dishwashers the average life-span is roughly 15 years.  Uh huh. 


Post# 597281 , Reply# 24   5/18/2012 at 08:43 (4,360 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
A lot of hot air and hoo ha commentary here on awo

firedome's profile picture
regarding these standards. As a scientist I'd prefer to first see the research data on efficiency vs performance, and exactly how, in detail the efficiency will be acheived before making any judgement. What Combo52 says makes sense. Speculation and anecdotes are worthless.

Post# 597287 , Reply# 25   5/18/2012 at 09:31 (4,360 days old) by mark_wpduet (Lexington KY)        

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Am I correct in that the manufacturers don't have to create machines to the Energystar standards, but that they do it for the tax credits?

Post# 597288 , Reply# 26   5/18/2012 at 09:31 (4,360 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)        

Well. firedome, here is something you can take to the bank. Since the first Bendix Automatic Home Laundry ad in the late 30s on through all of the ads for automatic washers in the 50s, one of the delineated steps that the machine performed was "Cleans itself" right before "shuts itself off." This was a BFD because of all of the work necessary to properly clean, rinse & dry a conventional washer after use. It is only since the DOE & EPA got involved in laundry that machines have become growth chambers for exotic forms of flora through spreading the gospel of cold water laundering, effing with the formulas of detergents and designing machines that don't use sufficient water to carry off the soil from interior surfaces. All of the above about clothes washers applies to dishwashers. Members here with dishwashers produced before the lies & corruption that have taken hold do not have the need for dishwasher cleaners if they can still find phosphated detergents, nor do they need to either prewash or count on a cycle that takes several hours to produce clean dishes. No classic front loader in anyone's collection needs a cleaning cycle when used with proper detergents and the water temperatures the Lord intended for washing clothes. Textiles have not changed, YET. They still absorb a certain amount of water. They still need a certain concentration of detergent in the wash solution to wash soil out of the fibers AND THEY STILL NEED TO HAVE THAT DETERGENT SOLUTION RINSED OUT OF THE FIBERS. It is possible to do this with less water via very good extraction between increased low water level rinses, but nothing has changed the physical or chemical properties of the textiles we are laundering to make them need less rinsing.

Post# 597292 , Reply# 27   5/18/2012 at 09:52 (4,360 days old) by mysteryclock (Franklin, TN)        

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Let me take a step back and play Devil's Advocate here with a question - how do these NEW standards compare with the existing UK/EU requirements and ratings? Is the US "leading" here in terms of low energy and water use still catching up (but not there yet?)

If we're not way out in front then I have a problem with the dire assessments of US machines future performance. Isn't it the common wisdom that most current EU machines will perform better than most US FLs, both in wash and rinse performance as well as energy use? If these same machines are ahead of us on lower water and energy use, then how is that possible, logically??



Post# 597293 , Reply# 28   5/18/2012 at 09:56 (4,360 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Mark check this out - Tax incentives

Here is a link to some information about tax incentives.  I don't know if it still applies but I would not be surprised if they do.



CLICK HERE TO GO TO jerrod6's LINK

Post# 597308 , Reply# 29   5/18/2012 at 12:30 (4,360 days old) by mrb627 (Buford, GA)        
The PLAGUE

mrb627's profile picture
will soon be upon us. Disease and sickness abounds.

And ground zero will be a washing machine in the deep South where the operator thought that smell was normal.

Malcolm


Post# 597317 , Reply# 30   5/18/2012 at 13:25 (4,360 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
'A lot of hot air and hoo ha commentary here on awo'

Not really firedome. Modern science is very much about profit, business and politics and 'objectivity' in science is moot. Just because it wears a lab coat doesn't mean it is interested in truth, the greater good or what is right.

Post# 597319 , Reply# 31   5/18/2012 at 13:25 (4,360 days old) by mfduffy ()        

I'm not saying these standards are good or bad. However, it's worth noting that most of the TOL machines currently on the market from the major American and Korean manufacturers are already compliant. So, we won't actually see a huge decrease in water usage from what many are seeing in new machines today.

Post# 597368 , Reply# 32   5/18/2012 at 18:00 (4,360 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

 I am using a FL machine and  according to its electronic control board read out it was made in Germany in 2000, even though I bought it in  the USA in 2002, so maybe many machines ARE all ready compliant.  I guess I don't even know what fill levels machines have in them today, but wasn't there a video posted of a woman in Atlanta that runs her machine through two wash cycles(One to wash and spit rinse, and the second for rinsing) for every load because the clothes don't get rinsed?   If the standards do not provide adequate rinsing consumers will just follow this woman and run two cycles for each load - saving water?

 

The article mentions that consumer groups where consulted...what groups are these and how do we join?


Post# 597371 , Reply# 33   5/18/2012 at 18:08 (4,360 days old) by washer111 ()        
Ouch...

Once again, the US Government is flexing it's muscles to other countries - the EU may soon follow suit, but, I think the Euro's have more of a sense of practicality compared to Americans (no offence to AW.org members here), as in, they only force the stretching of machines as much as necessary to maintain decent performance - their countries, after all don't have the sort of pollution I see in NYC, San-Francisco, LA etc.

"We don't need that hippy green energy. We can save our Carbon Footprint, and have Fossil Fuels when you don't."
"Who needs well washed & rinsed dishes?"
Here's my question: Would steam dishwashers start becoming the norm in a few years time, since they must use less water and probably no detergent whatsoever? Oh wait, the protectionalist government here and in the US wouldn't allow them onto the market, since Finish, Tide, Cascade etc would go bust without people to buy their "precious" detergents..


Post# 597376 , Reply# 34   5/18/2012 at 18:15 (4,360 days old) by pierreandreply4 (St-Bruno de montarville (province of quebec) canada)        
Thats just great as i wash only in cold water

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Well for me thats good news as i wash in cold water and my advice to anyone who will not went to use these machines better buy used refurbish second hand washing machines. and this is my only post

Post# 597378 , Reply# 35   5/18/2012 at 18:23 (4,360 days old) by chestermikeuk (Rainhill *Home of the RailwayTrials* Merseyside,UK)        
"the EU may soon follow suit,"

chestermikeuk's profile picture
Sorry to break it to you but the EU started it as long back as the 90`s, manufacturers drastically reduced water consumption ( machines labelled RainWave etc)and the machines we end up with now have the best energy ratings coupled with best use of detergent, time & electricity...

It appears that the US practices when too far to quick with OTT reduction of water levels, if they had kept the levels to ours pre 90`s for starters then that would have been good, (still a lot less than the TL)...

I would say machines at the moment are probably the best they can be without something giving, the detergents work great, and the vast selection of machines do more than average job, the question would be the reliability of certain brands models etc.. but like anything you can always trade up for better!!



Post# 597384 , Reply# 36   5/18/2012 at 18:48 (4,360 days old) by washer111 ()        

@chestermikeuk

Sorry. I'd think that the US was being quite drastic here. But, really, if I had all the choices in the world, I'd pick a EU brand or SpeedQueen - quality or super quiet, good washing...

It's funny though, Asko's BOL dishwashers in this country use around 14-18L of water on the "Normal" cycle, although the cycle they use for the standards test somehow skips a prewash (There is no mention of how to use that cycle).
So maybe, the EU mandated water/power use to a more reasonable point than what Obama is trying to do in the states...

In the case of dishwashers, manufacturers should come up with a "variable water usage" idea that lets the machine suit the fill level to the wash load and soil, to help reduce time taken. E.g. Light soils need only wash/2x rinse with less fill and water pressure to get them clean, where as heavy soils may need prewash, wash and 2x rinses.


Post# 597397 , Reply# 37   5/18/2012 at 19:24 (4,360 days old) by mfduffy ()        

One consumer group's take.

CLICK HERE TO GO TO mfduffy's LINK


Post# 597409 , Reply# 38   5/18/2012 at 20:57 (4,360 days old) by whirlypoolie ()        
Variable water levels in dishwashers? Why not?

@washer111

"In the case of dishwashers, manufacturers should come up with a "variable water usage" idea that lets the machine suit the fill level to the wash load and soil, to help reduce time taken. E.g. Light soils need only wash/2x rinse with less fill and water pressure to get them clean, where as heavy soils may need prewash, wash and 2x rinses."

Good idea, and why not? Clothes washers have had such cycles--and approriate water usage to go with them--for light, medium and heavy soiled loads for decades. So why haven't dishwasher manufacturers designed their machines to do the same to date? I know of none that do.

(If anyone makes a dishwasher that does this and is available now? I'd like to know about it.)


Post# 597424 , Reply# 39   5/18/2012 at 22:40 (4,360 days old) by rapunzel (Sydney)        
"dishwashers, manufacturers should come up with a "v

I thought that they already were. Many dishwashers have a half load option and those with soil sensor technology supposedly adjust the amount of water and washing time according to turbidity.

Post# 597426 , Reply# 40   5/18/2012 at 22:50 (4,360 days old) by washer111 ()        

@whirlypoolie

Here's something else for you as well.

After visiting the local appliance store today to look at some washing machines (our Simpson TL is on its way out, and is only 3 years old), I noticed that dishwashers now include a pre-wash detergent compartment again.
Our old MOL Dishlex never had this, and never used prewash and many models still do not - so why is prewash becoming popular again?

I'd say its because the super low volume of fill water gets dirty quicker, and therefore a quick water change before the main wash means the you aren't washing in (more or less) sludge!

So here's my question. Is the US Government trying to create a system where there is a SuperSaving Eco cycle which is "always the recommended cycle" or are they pushing for more saving's on the whole?
I'd rather have the option of a High-Water use (18L) Heavy cycle with 3 separate loads of water (6L per fill, like the old Asko 1302's), than all the cycles being bastardised for the "environment."

Seriously, this is Obama's way of BS'ing to the Tree-hugging voters who would otherwise have a donkey vote or just vote for someone else. "We'll help make these machines useless, so people have to do it the way they did years ago."
Why hasn't some consumer affairs program addressed this issue: We're trying to save so much water that dishwashers have to run for 3 hours to clean dishes, sure, that saves water, but what about the energy use. A Main-wash cycle that long may require a low power heater to run constantly to prevent the water losing temperature!
This is where F&P could get ahead with their Dish-drawers. They use amounts of water that only Mielè can produce (You pay AU$800 compared to AU$1500+) with their machines, and are "genuine half load" machines. I wonder if DishDrawer's will be exempt from this ruling, because of the already low water use. See my thread below about the performance. Low water use, Super quiet, and reasonable cycles (2 hours, but that includes up to 45 minutes of Residual heat drying, so you can end the cycle, and unpack straight away if you wish)


I think at some stage in the future, we'll all just have to go out for dinner each night, that way, we don't have to worry about dishes being done...


CLICK HERE TO GO TO washer111's LINK


Post# 597433 , Reply# 41   5/18/2012 at 23:51 (4,360 days old) by Supersuds (Knoxville, Tenn.)        

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Well, if the standards are already being met, maybe it won't be so bad.

 

Of course, it wouldn't be like the government to claim a lot of credit for something without good  reason, but there's a first time for everything!


Post# 597537 , Reply# 42   5/19/2012 at 12:26 (4,359 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
If anyone makes a dishwasher that does this and is available

They are around and can be bought in the USA.

 

My 2006 Miele  can(not all  of the cycles use the sensors) adjust each fill intake level to the the size of the dish load in the DW.  It will also skip the water change between the pre-rinse and wash if the soil senser detects light soil.  During the first 12 to 18 minutes of the wash the sensor will again determine soil level and then increase the water temperature used, or increase the wash period time, or it will reduce the time or it will make no change.  Sometimes near the end of the wash it will again increase the time if necessary.  It will  insert a rinse into the cycle and rinse 3 times instead of 2 if the sensor detects excess oils, starch or suds during the first rinse.

 

I think many whirlpools also have some type of sensor that causes it to go through purges to remove soil and I think they also adapt their cycles although I don't have experience with them to know exactly how they do it.

 

I think Bosch TOL machines also have these features.....so as far as DW go we can get those that do it.

 

I also read somewhere that the Miele 4X series washers have some type of soil sensor that it uses to control the cycle...of course they are being removed from the  USA market now.


Post# 597560 , Reply# 43   5/19/2012 at 15:33 (4,359 days old) by seeitrun2006 (Commerce, GA)        
The Whirlpool Tall Tub DU1055XT

that we bought in Feb. 2007 has the soil and temp sensor. It is used during the pre-wash and main wash. If the water is too dirty and not hot enough it does a partial drain...then re-fill with fresh water. The washing continues to wash with no pauses. It does the sensing towards the end of the pre-wash and main wash. It does a purge at the end of the main wash prior to the rinse. Once a year the dishwasher will run longer usual to against the sensor to the quality of water used.

Post# 597613 , Reply# 44   5/19/2012 at 20:44 (4,359 days old) by twinniefan (Sydney Australia)        
thank goodness for the twinnie

twinniefan's profile picture
Thank goodness I still have the Haier twinnie stored away in the garage in case we end up with with machines which use 1 tablespoon of water to wash in and if they ever became mandatory to have.
Actually while thinking of it, would any U.S. manufacturers of machines ever consider mass producing twin tubs over there?,sold on the benefit of water saving by reusing wash water for multiple loads and spinning rinse water in the wash tub for any additional loads.
Regards,
Steve.


Post# 597634 , Reply# 45   5/19/2012 at 22:02 (4,359 days old) by ronhic (Canberra, Australia)        
The best thing here is that...

ronhic's profile picture
...we're not in the US.

Our governments have taken a completely different approach to water usage - not 'legislating' and rather letting the consumer decide what they want.

Certainly, there has been financial encouragement with rebates to the consumer for purchasing efficient appliances, but these are not uniform across the country and if an individual wants to buy an appliance that uses more water/energy, they still can.




This post was last edited 05/20/2012 at 02:51
Post# 597673 , Reply# 46   5/20/2012 at 01:51 (4,358 days old) by dj-gabriele ()        
not 'legislating' and rather of letting the consumer

Two things come into my mind!

First is my SMEG dishwasher that has the "eco" normative cycle with reduced water and energy use (less than 1kWh for a 14 place setting load) and the "forte e veloce" which is "strong and fast" that in one hour washes and dries encrusted pots and pans compared to the three hours of the normative cycle. It uses 20 litres of water compared to 13 and 1,8 kWh compared to 1 but does the job in much less time.

Second example are BSH machines with variomatic system where one can select varispeed to achieve energy saving or hi-washing speed.

Same goes for washing machines with "cottons ECO" where the cycle lasts almost three hours or "cottons standard" where the cycle last more than one hour less. The results are the similar but energy and water use won't be.

Only very BOL machine don't have these options so it's all up to the customer to adjust the appliance to his/her needs.


Post# 597689 , Reply# 47   5/20/2012 at 04:16 (4,358 days old) by washer111 ()        

I think letting the consumer decide what they want is important. Anyone ever heard of Choice?

BUT, manufacturers should make warnings on the front of the machine for non-manual readers that are stuck to the display such as:
"USING ECO CYCLE WILL SAVE AT LEAST 7L OF WATER IN EACH WASH." (Example taken from dj-gabriele's Smeg machine).

Maybe then people might realise how much they are wasting.

Our DD only does a Wash and 2x rinse (newer models now feature an extra rinse in Heavy though), so the only savings are via reduced temperature washes, which would save very negligible amounts if you ran piping hot solar heated water to the machine...


Post# 597690 , Reply# 48   5/20/2012 at 04:21 (4,358 days old) by washer111 ()        
Half-Load Options

@rapunzel

i think these options are kinda stupid. You obviously have to choose whether to wash your small stuff at the top, and have the plates at the bottom rinsed a little (if you work like that), or have plates in the bottom getting washed, with some spray (maybe) reaching the top, rinsing stuff up there...

Thats why I prefer the DD, which is genuinely around half sized (its about 10% bigger than half in each drawer). My recent "bob-load" strategy means we don't use the machine every day, but instead every 2-3 days (we just lasted about 3 days till I ran the machine today).
We used to run our old Dishlex every 1-3 days on the Quick30 or Eco cycle in our old house, and that was only with negligible amounts of plates and stuff in there, so the DD works better for us in that manner


Post# 597829 , Reply# 49   5/20/2012 at 17:31 (4,358 days old) by logixx (Germany)        

logixx's profile picture
I can totally see how American dishwashers could be more energy and water: just forget about the US concept and get decent European technology - period!

Let have a look at what manual say: current top-of-the-line Whirlpool dishwasher: max cycle time with options selected 4:40 hrs. Huh? Total cycle time on our Euro Bosch with options selected: more than two hours less.

Water consumption: current top-of-the-line Kenmore dishwasher uses 26 liters / 6.8 gal on Normal with heavy soil sensed. Modern European units get away with 10 liters / 2.6 gal less. And no, the Kenmore still lists the typical cycle time as around two hours - just like a Euro dishwasher.

Speed: said touch-screen-controlled Kenmore has a One-Hour-Wash cycle. Takes 60 minutes without drying and *just* guzzles 30 liters / 7.9 gal. Again, our 6 years old Bosch does the job in 40 minutes using two thirds less water and even dries the dishes.

Even among modern Euro dishwashers there are vast differences. Example: a Whirlpool unit versus a Bosch/Siemens. Both can be had for 650 Euros. So how did both units fare when tested by our consumer magazine? The Whirlpool used more energy, water and even time than the Bosch to complete the cycle and dishes weren't completely clean. The Bosch took 11 liters, .88 kWh and 150 minutes to perfectly wash ever single piece. The WP wash also very noisy at over 50 dB.

Bottom line: it seems TOL American dishwashers - while they surely can clean dishes perfectly - seem to be as efficient as BOL European units.

Oh, and what about that line in Kenmore/KitchenAid manuals: Hi Temp raises the water temp from 105F to 120F. Geez, our Bosch washes hotter than that on ECO.

Alex


Post# 597857 , Reply# 50   5/20/2012 at 20:41 (4,358 days old) by Frigilux (The Minnesota Prairie)        

frigilux's profile picture

I went to the Bosch USA appliance site and their new TOL series dishwasher (called 800 something-or-other) uses only 2.2 gallons of water for a normal cycle.  The machine lists for $1999.  Sound level of 39 decibels.  My LG is 45 decibels and it's really quiet! There's actually a very big audible difference between 39 and 45 decibels. That Bosch must be close to absolute silence.


Post# 597875 , Reply# 51   5/20/2012 at 23:06 (4,358 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
A TWO-THOUSAND DOLLAR DISHWASHER? Surely it comes with an illegal alien who loads and unloads it.

Post# 597890 , Reply# 52   5/21/2012 at 02:04 (4,357 days old) by washer111 ()        

How on earth can you use 8L of water to wash dishes with a full sized DW? You'd need two spray arms with pin-sized (Really small, and I mean REALLY SMALL) spray arms that alternate to be able to have any decent pressure/water movement...

I also suppose the arm would have to be of an "orbiting" type, since have 12 or so pin sized holes might be too much! I can semi understand with a DD how you can use so little, but it moves that much water around something must be wrong (it also always fills the same, not matter whether someone is showering, watering the garden etc)!!!

The ones I saw at the appliance store used just 13L for a regular cycle, and only had around 3 holes per side of the arm - similar to the wash-arm of a KA model with the 4 way Hydrosweep (if thats what you call it).

Here is something: A GE Potscrubber 1200 will wash the dishes in around 40 minutes, and fill itself 6 times - using around 10Gal of water (35L) - a modern machine can do the same (albeit w/o around 3 rinses) in around 60 minutes and use just 10L!

I dunno how the manufacturers do this, but most of them must include a Dumbledore or something in their dishwashers to make everything actually work!!!


Post# 597971 , Reply# 53   5/21/2012 at 12:15 (4,357 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

My  DW from 2006 does have alternating spray arms and on some cycles can use about 3.5 gallons with light soil. So I am sure technology has improved in 6 years.

 

Claiming  sound decibles is tricky since no company in the USA is really held to any sound standard.  They can say what they want.  Also tricky is what part of the cycle they are taking the measurement.  In mine you can hardly hear it when it is washing or spraying the dishes.  I CAN hear it when it is pumping the water down the drain.  Of course the drain period only lasts 45 seconds or so while the spraying periods  lasts a lot longer.  I figure they took the measurement during the spray period and not while the water was being pumped out. 


Post# 598111 , Reply# 54   5/21/2012 at 23:25 (4,357 days old) by Jetawayjuan (Michigan/Phoenix)        

Stop screwing with washers and dishwashers and mess around with ac units!!!

Post# 598240 , Reply# 55   5/22/2012 at 14:12 (4,356 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        
Ac units

Oh..... they've been messed with.   Many now come with dual compressors a larger and a smaller one.  The smaller one is used during normal periods when you don't need super cooling.  When It gets very hot or there is a heat demand in your home both of the compressors will run.

 

The thing is that many of these newer units move more air than the older ones and  they don't always produce air that is as cold as older models so sometimes existing duct work cannot handle the air volume well.  Sometimes they don't remove humidity as well either.   I got lucky when I replaced my older system because the ducts in the house are over-sized and I have air returns in every room except the kitchen and bathrooms.  Larger rooms have returns near the floor and ceilings, so I don't notice any additional noise.  The system cools fast and very well, but if I had smaller ducts or less air returns there would be noise problems.

 

There is also the problem of new construction where contractors have cut corners and used flex duct which can sag and bend.  Read an  HVAC forum and you will see many many complaints about these newer efficiency systems how they  operate and how they have been installed.

 


Post# 598361 , Reply# 56   5/23/2012 at 00:55 (4,356 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

and for newer HVAC units compressor and blower motors are used with VFD's to control the speed and capacity of the compressors and fans,thus using less power.

Post# 598362 , Reply# 57   5/23/2012 at 01:24 (4,356 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        

arbilab's profile picture
6 years ago I "invented" a variable-capacity cooling system, eliminating expansion valves and implementing efficient 3-phase inverter motors. IOW a system that would scale itself to whatever conditions it encountered, using the least possible energy.

Also solving predictable problems like high-current electronics operated outdoors in summer, with a sealed suction manifold heatsink keeping condensation out. I wrote it up as a patent abstract and think I still have it in MS Word if anyone wants to see. What I DIDN'T have was a quarter-million dollars to build and refine prototypes and pay patent lawyers.


Post# 598385 , Reply# 58   5/23/2012 at 06:19 (4,355 days old) by tolivac (greenville nc)        

A building I used to work in had variable capacity chillers and VFD drives on the evaporator water pumps.and in 1939 when the building was originally built-they had a variable capacity pump and blower system using DC motors-the Motor gen sets that provided the 250VDC are still in the building basement.Would have liked to see that system work-was a Ward Leonard DC system.

Post# 598481 , Reply# 59   5/23/2012 at 13:52 (4,355 days old) by jerrod6 (Southeastern Pennsylvania)        

Arbilab  did you ever submit your write up to the patent office?  If so you might not have even had to build anything. Once someone tried to use any of your ideas they would come up against your patent....nothing prevents you from letting them use it .....at a cost you negotiate.


Post# 598642 , Reply# 60   5/24/2012 at 08:32 (4,354 days old) by firedome (Binghamton NY & Lake Champlain VT)        
rapunzel:

firedome's profile picture
"modern science is very much about profit, business and politics and objectivity in science is moot"

Sorry, but that's an absurd statement, with absolutely no basis in fact.
Au contraire, politicians and businesses attempt to use science for their own corrupt and selfish ends. It's obvious that you have no concept whatever of the use of Scientific Method in academic Peer Reviewed research based on double-blind randomized controlled experimentation. I still want to see the data before making judgement, not one based on anecdotal observation.


Post# 598732 , Reply# 61   5/24/2012 at 16:47 (4,354 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Newer AC Units

launderess's profile picture
Well as much as one hates to admit it, our new electronic controlled Friedrich "Wallmastet" (built 2008) seems to do a better job of cooling versus the older (1988) unit that died. It certianly is more quiet and that is a blessing. One also likes that the fan is cycled on/off with the compressor

One finds the "smart fan" option where the fan speed is electronically controlled to match cooling capacity required works quite well. Mind you it's barely been above 70F here and have had the unit on for short periods to deal with the constant damp weather we've been having.



Post# 598743 , Reply# 62   5/24/2012 at 17:35 (4,354 days old) by DADoES (TX, U.S. of A.)        

dadoes's profile picture
 
Friedrich has featured the auto-fan option (Money Saver® button)for many years, although not on all models, and electronic controls aren't a necessity to allow the feature.  HUGE-capacity, 36,000 BTU, through-the-wall cool/heat units were in several stand-alone classroom buildings at my school dating to the 1970s had auto-fan.  A few teachers used it, most didn't.

Grandmother has a 16K btu heat/cool unit with analog controls and auto-fan option (selected by me at the time of purchase).  Interestingly, the auto-fan setting on Friedrich units typically maintains a more consistent temperature than continuous fan.  They have an anticipator heater on the thermostat bulb to moderate the temperature swing, which I believe is activated for auto-fan and deactivated for continuous fan.


Post# 598784 , Reply# 63   5/24/2012 at 19:58 (4,354 days old) by Launderess (Quiet Please, There´s a Lady on Stage)        
Thanks Dadoes

launderess's profile picture
Really wanted to replace our dead unit with another mechanical controlled version, but they hard to find new and the older ones for sale locally wanted nearly what we paid for our NIB (about $350).

It really is a roll of the dice buying an used AC around here. Many persons living in NYC apartments are transplants that aren't used to the street noise. Thus they close their windows and run the AC almost all year long when possible. That and or they run the units even when temps are only say 70F to 75F because the weather is humid and their apartment feels clamy. Our AC repairman told us it's not a good idea to run the AC when outdoor temps are "that low" as it's hard on the compressor. Better to purchase a fan (we have a large one) and use it to move air instead.


Post# 598808 , Reply# 64   5/24/2012 at 23:01 (4,354 days old) by arbilab (Ft Worth TX (Ridglea))        
Jerrod,

arbilab's profile picture
I did not submit it. I couldn't afford to have it put into submissible form by a lawyer or have prior art researched. Did get as far as what that would cost, $7000 IIRC.

Variable speed obviously wasn't an "invention" and neither was single -> 3-phase inversion. There was already a chip to do it on the market. The novel part was combining those to eliminate the expansion valve. They're wasteful and laggy.

Even if I had submitted and succeeded in registering it, it would cost at least $50,000 per event to pursue infringements. I do have one lawyer friend but he's in family law in Kona Hawaii.


Post# 1083027 , Reply# 65   7/29/2020 at 23:21 (1,366 days old) by GELaundry4ever (Nacogdoches, TX, USA)        
SMH!

Are they serious? Nothing has changed. Now speed queen is ruined.

Post# 1083046 , Reply# 66   7/30/2020 at 05:09 (1,365 days old) by chetlaham (United States)        

chetlaham's profile picture
How is Speed Queen doing btw now that the TR has been out for a few years?


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