Aggravated again

Our water heater is causing problems. It's a six year old n/g Whirlpool brand. I started noticing that my Maytag 806 washer that I restored and installed two years ago was taking longer to fill that it did before. The upstairs KitchenAid d/w from 2001 started not cleaning properly. We were hearing a surging sound coming from it. We suspected a under fill situation. We were right. The pump was loosing its prime and sucking air. We'd pour in about 2-3 quarts of hot water and the surging stopped and the cleaning improved. The aerators on the faucets were collecting particles. I disconnected the hot water line from the Maytag valve and found little white particles clogging the screen. The cold water side was clean. I put a hose on the w/h and collected some water from the bottom of the heater. The white particles were in the bottom of the heater. I flush the w/h every year and had noticed the particles before. I called Whirlpool about the situation. They said if I was finding white particulate in the water it was the result of anode rod deterioration and it should be replaced.

To replace the anode rod we will have to disconnect the w/h and drag it outside to replace it since the rod is 39 inches long and there's not enough over-head clearance in the basement to get it out. And if you break the rod and it falls down in the w/h it's ruined. If we have to drag it outside why not replace it? But there's no guarantee that a new one will be better than the old one. It could very well be the other way round.

Quality on products is going down across the board. A lot of new w/h have "Honeywell Icon" designed thermostats on them and they're supposed to be a "smart thermostat" with a circuit board in them. I don't want any damn circuit boards in my w/h t-stats. The old big black dial was just fine. Never had one go bad in my life or seen one go bad. That's not to say they don't, but after 45 years of experience with water heaters, I think I can safely say I've learned some things about w/h. The tank has always gone bad before the t-stat. The new t-stat is supposed to be an energy saving device. I've seen this old song and dance routine so many times I'm sick. Force energy saving devices on the public and our sanity be damned. I don't want to be piddling with a malfunctioning w/h every time I turn around. I'm seeing lots of complaints on the internet about this.

I've been doing reviews on w/h and the amount of information is mind boggling. I found a site called waterheaterrescue.com . I truly believe this fella is interested in helping people and not just lining his pocket. If any of you are interested and inclined to read this, do so. I've gleaned a lot from his site. For instance, I've learned that many w/h manufacturers have switched to aluminum anode rods instead of staying with magnesium. Aluminum rods are cheaper to produce but can cause poisoning. Very high concentrations of aluminum can sometimes be found in the hot water from tanks with aluminum rods and if drunk can have a bad affect on ones health. I've also learned that anode rods dissolve more quickly in softened water than non-softened water. We put in a new water softener a year and a half ago and since that time we've started noticing particulate problems developing in our water. The guy on w/h rescue.com recommends using an electrically powered anode rod along with other modifications to make a better w/h, especially when using softened water. He recommends buying a w/h with the lowest warranty as it is based on the number of anode rods in the tank and if one's going to replace the sacrificial anode rod with a powered type the warranty should be ignored. His other recommendations are to look for a heater with the highest number of insulation in inches, a fast recovery rate, consider your family's hot water demands and picking a tank size accordingly, and stay away from on demand heaters as they are complicated and more prone to breakdown. There were various other items to watch for also. The site is quite in depth.

The only 40 gal. w/h left with the old style t-stats are the ones with only 1 or 2 inches of insulation in them. When one upgrades from 1 to 2 inches of insulation, the outside diameter of the w/h jumps from 18 inches to 20 inches. Since our utility room is very small, I don't know if the room will accommodate the extra 2 inch diameter.

I guess what it comes down to is, I'm wondering if we should buy a new w/h and get parts to fix it up with or try and fix up the old one. I don't know what else has been done to w/h since 2006 to decrease their reliability. If anyone has any insight on these issues or something that I may have overlooked, I would welcome your input.


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Post# 604043 6/16/2012 at 09:59 (4,335 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Our water heater is causing problems. It's a six year old n/g Whirlpool brand. I started noticing that my Maytag 806 washer that I restored and installed two years ago was taking longer to fill that it did before. The upstairs KitchenAid d/w from 2001 started not cleaning properly. We were hearing a surging sound coming from it. We suspected a under fill situation. We were right. The pump was loosing its prime and sucking air. We'd pour in about 2-3 quarts of hot water and the surging stopped and the cleaning improved. The aerators on the faucets were collecting particles. I disconnected the hot water line from the Maytag valve and found little white particles clogging the screen. The cold water side was clean. I put a hose on the w/h and collected some water from the bottom of the heater. The white particles were in the bottom of the heater. I flush the w/h every year and had noticed the particles before. I called Whirlpool about the situation. They said if I was finding white particulate in the water it was the result of anode rod deterioration and it should be replaced. To replace the anode rod we will have to disconnect the w/h and drag it outside to replace it since the rod is 39 inches long and there's not enough over-head clearance in the basement to get it out. And if you break the rod and it falls down in the w/h it's ruined. If we have to drag it outside why not replace it? But there's no guarantee that a new one will be better than the old one. It could very well be the other way round. Quality on products is going down across the board. A lot of new w/h have "Honeywell Icon" designed thermostats on them and they're supposed to be a "smart thermostat" with a circuit board in them. I don't want any damn circuit boards in my w/h t-stats. The old big black dial was just fine. Never had one go bad in my life or seen one go bad. That's not to say they don't, but after 45 years of experience with water heaters, I think I can safely say I've learned some things about w/h. The tank has always gone bad before the t-stat. The new t-stat is supposed to be an energy saving device. I've seen this old song and dance routine so many times I'm sick. Force energy saving devices on the public and our sanity be damned. I don't want to be piddling with a malfunctioning w/h every time I turn around. I'm seeing lots of complaints on the internet about this. I've been doing reviews on w/h and the amount of information is mind boggling. I found a site called waterheaterrescue.com . I truly believe this fella is interested in helping people and not just lining his pocket. If any of you are interested and inclined to read this, do so. I've gleaned a lot from his site. For instance, I've learned that many w/h manufacturers have switched to aluminum anode rods instead of staying with magnesium. Aluminum rods are cheaper to produce but can cause poisoning. Very high concentrations of aluminum can sometimes be found in the hot water from tanks with aluminum rods and if drunk can have a bad affect on ones health. I've also learned that anode rods dissolve more quickly in softened water than non-softened water. We put in a new water softener a year and a half ago and since that time we've started noticing particulate problems developing in our water. The guy on w/h rescue.com recommends using an electrically powered anode rod along with other modifications to make a better w/h, especially when using softened water. He recommends buying a w/h with the lowest warranty as it is based on the number of anode rods in the tank and if one's going to replace the sacrificial anode rod with a powered type the warranty should be ignored. His other recommendations are to look for a heater with the highest number of insulation in inches, a fast recovery rate, consider your family's hot water demands and picking a tank size accordingly, and stay away from on demand heaters as they are complicated and more prone to breakdown. There were various other items to watch for also. The site is quite in depth. The only 40 gal. w/h left with the old style t-stats are the ones with only 1 or 2 inches of insulation in them. When one upgrades from 1 to 2 inches of insulation, the outside diameter of the w/h jumps from 18 inches to 20 inches. Since our utility room is very small, I don't know if the room will accommodate the extra 2 inch diameter. I guess what it comes down to is, I'm wondering if we should buy a new w/h and get parts to fix it up with or try and fix up the old one. I don't know what else has been done to w/h since 2006 to decrease their reliability. If anyone has any insight on these issues or something that I may have overlooked, I would welcome your input.

Post# 604049 , Reply# 1 6/16/2012 at 10:28 (4,335 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes A link. Sounds bad. CLICK HERE TO GO TO beekeyknee's LINK

Post# 604050 , Reply# 2 6/16/2012 at 10:34 (4,335 days old) by kqkenmore (memphis tn)
Checkrate/Likes Just had to buy a wh we got an American brand from av puumbing store Home Depot made me mad so I left theirs in the store . it is mid line heater had to get a short tank because it is in the attic. I am surprised that Whirlpool is not repairing it because there was a recall for the same thing 12 years ago on some kenmore water haters that were made by Whirlpool because the one that we just replaced was in the recall.How much are the rods and are you able to replace them yourself ? If there is not rusted out places on the water heater then I would fix it but if it is more then I would get a new one. Look on line at the American Water heaters because my contractor thought that the were the best.

Post# 604091 , Reply# 3 6/16/2012 at 13:31 (4,335 days old) by Tomturbomatic (Beltsville, MD)
Checkrate/Likes The other problem seen recently with the white particles in the screens of fill valves was the plastic cold water tube crumbling in the tank. If you are worried about tank diameter, you can buy a 2 inch thick blanket online (Lowes only had the 1" thick one in the store; must think something 2" thick will scare the women) and then wrap the tank after you put it in the room. Thanks for the news about the electrical anode. I will investigate that.

Post# 604096 , Reply# 4 6/16/2012 at 13:46 (4,335 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)
Checkrate/Likes Up to the mid-1990s you could still get a water heater with a lifetime warranty. Now, the max I've found is 12 years. I still have an original 1936 Ruud gas water heater with Monel tank in my house and I also have a newer electric Rheem in the garage that replaced a Kenmore after Hurricane Ike - salt water exposure issue. The Rheem has a 12 year warranty - we'll see. The Ruud's only issue, according to local plumbers and appliance repairmen, is the T-stat/safety valve will go bad and, due to liability issues, no one will service them. The T-stat and safety valve is basically the same as found on vintage stoves, so I will rebuild it if it goes bad. I agree that modern stuff is basically shit, but today people only care about cost, not quality - look at the Wal-Mart culture that pervades society today. Until consumers demand quality nothing will change.

Post# 604140 , Reply# 5 6/16/2012 at 19:02 (4,334 days old) by mattl (Flushing, MI)
Checkrate/Likes The anode rods are readily available in a flexible form that will allow you to slightly bend then as they go in. Check around you should be able to find one. Replacing the anode rod is part of basic maintenance of any water heater....

Post# 604153 , Reply# 6 6/16/2012 at 19:52 (4,334 days old) by vintagekitchen ()
Checkrate/Likes *Replace it..* My water heater is a Bradford White 40 gallon. In the past 10 years to my knowledge the only maintanence it has required was a new upper thermostat, for about 20 bucks, my fault for adjusting it higher when I am doing white laundry, then back down. (apparently the constant up and down adjusting wears them out, oops..). The hydrojet system in these heaters eliminates sediment build up, so there is no need to drain them yearly. I tried last year, just to check, and there was no sediment. The anode rod has never been changed, and best of all, these are the best insulated heaters available to my knowledge. I know the electric bill is very low with it in use. Unfortunately, they are a bit pricey. My model is currently around 500 dollars, but your mileage may vary.. CLICK HERE TO GO TO vintagekitchen's LINK

Post# 604156 , Reply# 7 6/16/2012 at 20:09 (4,334 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Carl- There was a class-action lawsuit against several of these w/h manufacturers. They changed the dip tubes in 1993 up to somewhere in the late '90's(?). The deadline to file was Dec. 31, 2000. After that you're on your own. I don't know what color the bad dip tubes were, but they switched back to the original style which is blue. The people at Whirlpool told me if the dip tube was disintegrating the particulate would be blue and not white. White indicates a bad anode rod. As far as the prices on the rods go, I'm not sure. Whirlpool said they would mail me one for around $58.00, but I'm sure one could be purchased at a local hardware store or plumbing supply for much less. Also see my answer to David, below. I have read in a review that American water heaters have a fine wire mesh screen on the bottom of the heater that can clog if not vacuumed regularly and the pilot light will go out. American heaters have legs. Some of the others do not and the outer steal jacket extends to the floor to prevent dust from collecting. These type have vent holes cut in the jacket up a bit from the floor to keep dust from entering. I'm talking gas heaters, of course. That's all I'm considering in my research, as we are equipped for gas. Tom- As I told Carl, the dip tubes are blue as of 2000. I'm not sure of the color between '93 and 2000. Since ours is post 2000 the dip tube is blue. It had occurred to me to add some insulation. Good idea. David- Here's where thing get confusing. Rheem, Ruud and Richmond are all made by Water Heater Innovations Inc. which is a subsidiary of Rheem Manufacturing which is part of the Paloma Group. A.O. Smith makes A.O. Smith, American, GSW and US Craftmaster. State makes State and Freedom and Reliance and Kenmore are produced by the same company too. Not sure if Bradford-White produces another line. So you see, when you buy one w/h you could be buying the same thing, only with a different name on it. Corporate mergers, of course. And like I mentioned in the beginning of the thread, the difference in warranty periods is determined my the number of anode rods in the tank. For the most part, all American brands seem to be the same except for types of t-stats, configurations of where openings are on the tank, the base style, types of burners and how the pilot lights are concealed, capacity, and insulation. The tanks seem to be pretty much the same. One type for gas, another for electric. Another thing to consider is the steal nipples that screw into the water connections. They are plastic lined for dielectric purposes and have a built in heat trap with a marble in them that cuts heat loss. These marbles can chatter and send noise through the pipes in the house. The marble can be removed by pulling the dielectric out with needle-nose, removing the marble and replacing the dielectric. Last of all, with the 12 year warranty, they install a short anode rod on the hot water side below the nipple. To replace it you must remove the nipple and then the anode rod. More of these types of procedures increase the chance for an accident, damage to the tank and aggravation. If you have hard water, replacing the anode rods with an electric powered rod may not be as much of a concern for you. Personally, I would rather remove the sacrificial anode rods and replace them with an electrically powered rod in the proprietary anode rod port and not have a second anode rod hanging below the hot water outlet. No more messing around with anode rods in two different places. If you have hard water, I would also consider replacing the tank drain valve with a straight through ball valve so it is easier to drain off sediment. One more thing I almost forgot. Rheem w/h that have the second in-line anode rod below the h/w outlet are a special design that can only be obtained from Rheem and is more expensive than the generic ones in other heaters. To summarize, I guess I'm trying to figure out which basic, low end, low warranty w/h is the most reliable and has the lease amount of issues. I don't know. It seems to be a toss-up, as best I can tell. If any of you out there in AW land have a 40 gal., low end, n/g water heater, especially those with soft water, I'd love to hear your comments about the reliability of your heaters. I'd like to get this problem solved, fix our water using devices and move on. It's quite tiresome. CLICK HERE TO GO TO beekeyknee's LINK

Post# 604157 , Reply# 8 6/16/2012 at 20:11 (4,334 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Another link. CLICK HERE TO GO TO beekeyknee's LINK

Post# 604291 , Reply# 13 6/17/2012 at 19:27 (4,333 days old) by mysteryclock (Franklin, TN)
Checkrate/Likes I'm pretty sure they make segmented anode rods (with flexible joints) so at least next time around you can replace it even with a low ceiling w/o having to haul it outside.

Post# 604361 , Reply# 15 6/18/2012 at 02:17 (4,333 days old) by ozzie908 (Lincoln UK)
Checkrate/Likes *Can I ask a daft question ?* Seeing as we have a different kind of water heating system to most of you guys would someone please tell me what Anode rods are for ? Austin

Post# 604158 , Reply# 9 6/16/2012 at 20:18 (4,334 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Thank you, Matt. But in our soft water the anode rod will be eaten up in just a few months. It's happening right now. I want something I don't have to mess with. Replacing anode rods every few months and cleaning all the water valves in our appliances is unacceptable.

Post# 604177 , Reply# 10 6/16/2012 at 23:52 (4,334 days old) by MattL (Flushing, MI)
Checkrate/Likes Interesting, not aware of the electric powered rods, good to know. I guess I'm lucky, my last two tanks lasted 18 and 21 years, just popped a 12 year warranty unit in last summer, the previous units were 10 year warranty units.

Post# 604188 , Reply# 11 6/17/2012 at 01:33 (4,334 days old) by qualin (Canada)
Checkrate/Likes My parents had a 1967 vintage Eatons Viking water heater. Not only did this water heater outlast the company, but it lasted nearly 36 years before rust finally did it in. That and the safety valve kept popping. They just don't build them like that anymore....

Post# 604212 , Reply# 12 6/17/2012 at 08:27 (4,334 days old) by 58limited (Port Arthur, Texas)
Checkrate/Likes My rent house in college had a Montgomery Wards unit in a cabinet with a lifetime warranty. It was from the 1960s and finally went out in about 1998 - the bottom rusted through. We got a lifetime model from Lowe's to replace it. Shortly afterwards, lifetime models disappeared.

Post# 604348 , Reply# 14 6/18/2012 at 00:27 (4,333 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Kevin- Thanks for the review on the Bradford White. I wonder if the gas models are as reliable? John- Yes, they do make segmented rods, but they wouldn't last any time in our soften water. Thanks for the idea though. I'm concerned about these Honeywell Icon t-stats. I don't think circuit boards in a w/h t-stats are necessary. Since many of our products are being produced out of the country now and some countries are following the Rohs Directive, it looks as though one has to find out the country of origin, which many times is hidden, find out if that country is following the Directive, then do the reviews to find out if the product is reliable. This whole process is infuriating when we could simply be living our daily lives and not have to worry about all these issues. Since the Rohs Directive requires lead not to be used in solder, tin whiskers shorting out circuit boards is now a concern. And I don't think the components that go into them are of the same quality as they used to be. I'd sure million dollar satellites that are launched into space aren't Rohs Compliant. The government and big companies don't want to gamble on an expensive satellite malfunctioning in outer space.

Post# 604371 , Reply# 16 6/18/2012 at 03:40 (4,333 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Austin, See link. CLICK HERE TO GO TO beekeyknee's LINK

Post# 604399 , Reply# 17 6/18/2012 at 07:48 (4,333 days old) by polkanut (Wausau, WI )
Checkrate/Likes *Brian,* We have a Ruud n/g heater with a power vent, and it will be 14 years old next month. I have flushed it several times, and have never had had more than a few grains of sand etc. We are very satisfied with its performance, and will get another when the time comes. The only time we've run out of hot water was when we had the dishwasher and clothes washer running, and someone was taking a shower all at the same time.

Post# 607819 , Reply# 18 7/2/2012 at 23:47 (4,318 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes Hi Guys, Well, you probably won't believe this. I found a w/h at Habitat. I know what you're thinking. He got a used w/h at Habitat? That's probably not a very good idea. Whenever I go there I always take a good LED flashlight and my glasses (No, I don't want to talk about the glasses). I saw a Rudd heater setting there. It looked in pretty good condition, so I took the cover off the gas chamber, and looked up inside. Since it was made in 2002 it didn't have that flame-lock technology for people that like to pour out VOC's in their house and blow themselves up. There was very little rust, the pan under the burner didn't have any water spots from leaks at all, the jacket was nearly perfect, and the water I drew off the drain valve had very little particulate and wasn't very off colored. So I decided to take the chance. It was $100.00. I've spent $100.00 on less of a sure thing before. A guy showed up about 3 min. after I did and was going to take it, so I just barely made it. Yesterday (Sunday) I went to Ace H/W and got all the fittings to do an outdoor pressure test. I hooked it up with garden hoses running everywhere. I filled the tank. It held pressure with cold water. Then I disconnected the cold side input, connected a hose to the drain valve and ran it down the hill to help speed the draining process. Then I reconnected the cold input, capped the hot output, closed the drain valve and turned on the water to let water in the tank and also to start compressing the air inside. When a few gallons had built up inside the tank I opened the drain valve and started shaking the tank from side to side in all directions. I could hear the water sloshing around inside. Then I leaned the tank over toward the the drain valve so that any particulate that was in the tank would settle in that direction and have an easier way out.I kept repeating the shaking and leaning process until the water in the tank was becoming to heavy to do this safely. After this I turned the water off, put the hose back on the hot output side, closed the drain valve and filled the tank again. When water started to come out of the hot output side (hose), I let it run a bit more to make sure any left over debris was out. Then I capped the hot output side, pressurized the tank again and opened the T&P valve to clear it an make sure it was functioning correctly. It ran fine and sealed when I closed it. The only thing I couldn't do was remove that stupid anode rod. It is stuck in there tight. I tried to remove it with a six point socket and a long rod, but it wouldn't budge. I even did it with the tank full of water. It's a 50 gal. tank. That, plus the weight of the heater amounts to about 500 lbs. I used a long breaker bar and I even put a pipe over it for extra leverage, but no go. So tomorrow I guess I'll put it back in the truck and take it to an automotive shop and see if someone will try and use a pneumatic tool on it to get it out. That's the only thing I know left to do. I used PB Blaster on it, but that didn't seem to make much difference. If I can get the anode rod out, then I'll be ready to fire up the burner. After that I think we'll be ready for an install. This heater is 50 gal. and has a first hour recovery rate of 58 gal. The W/P that's installed now is 40 gal. and has a first hour recovery rate of 33.9 gal. If the anode rod comes out I think I'll have it made. Wish me luck.

Post# 608605 , Reply# 19 7/6/2012 at 02:12 (4,315 days old) by beekeyknee (Columbia, MO)
Checkrate/Likes I took the w/h to my GM dealer and they used the pneumatic driver and got the anode rod out of the heater. I tipped the mechanic. He seemed pleased and surprised. The rod was only about 50% gone, so that's a good thing. I'm going to house-sit for my parents starting Sunday and will be gone for a week. I'll take up the project again when I return. I suppose I'll try the electric anode. I'll see how reliable they are. Stay tuned for your next installment of, "As the Water Heater Burns".